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October 24, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 24 October 2013

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ciaron

random thought for the day:

If you want to direct traffic to your site, pay DPF for some advertising space.
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October 24, 2013 8:10am
Dennis Horne

If you want to direct traffic to your site, pay DPF for some advertising space.

I see more bull than stampede.
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October 24, 2013 8:12am
Tom Jackson

Meridian = flop.

They should have pulled out of the sale. What a car wreck.
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October 24, 2013 8:20am
Left Right and Centre

(1) You’re not fat, it’s genetic.

You’re not thick, you’re dyslexic.

Yeah, right. The latest trend for fat overfed Westerners is that in the last 30-40 years the human race has suddenly developed genetic disorders that involuntarily predispose their body shape to become indistinguishable from certain large farm animals.

Nevermind the increase in energy intake in the diet. Nevermind poor countries that don’t seem to have the same problem. Or that obesity rates were nothing like they are today as recently as the 1970s.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/9312932/How-seven-calories-can-ruin-it-all

(2) And this story would stink if it was anything else but filtering the very stench of the subject-matter itself:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/fashion/9317340/Knickers-that-block-fart-odour

Imagine that – letting rip, unleashing the fury at maximum volume and then cheerily explaining that all within close proximity are safe due to your chemical warfare industrial strength filtered underdaks. Nice.

Now – if only they can do the same for underarm BO and maybe a bodysuit filter? 🙂
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October 24, 2013 8:27am
Ed Snack

A propos of LR&C’s post above, comes this nugget:

“The British Medical Journal has issued a clarion call to all who want to ward off heart disease: Forget the statins and bring back the bacon (or at least the full-fat yogurt). Saturated fat is not the widow-maker it’s been made out to be, writes British cardiologist Aseem Malhotra in a stinging “Observations” column in the BMJ: The more likely culprits are empty carbs and added sugar.

Virtually all the truths about preventing heart attacks that physicians and patients have held dear for more than a generation are wrong and need to be abandoned, Malhotra writes. He musters a passel of recent research that suggests that the “obsession” with lowering a patients’ total cholesterol with statins, and a public health message that has made all sources of saturated fat verboten to the health-conscious, have failed to reduce heart disease.

Indeed, he writes, they have set off market forces that have put people at greater risk.”

And to think it was the Government who recommended the old “food pyramid” that went out to all the schools and was forced on people everywhere; that emphasized lots of carbs and almost no fats. When will those who pushed those recommendations on government be bought to account ? There’s at least part of the explanation for the “obesity epidemic”, government pushing political barrows in the guise of “science”. Now where else are we seeing this kind of thing going on…
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October 24, 2013 8:33am
Snarkle

Have a little sympathy LRC. If you read the book on the IgNobel prizes (a great laugh by the way) you will find that the original inventor did it for his wife, who suffers from severe Crohn’s disease.
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October 24, 2013 8:33am
Tauhei Notts

Ed Snack asks when the people making silly recommendations will be bought to account.
We have already bought them. Us mug taxpayers have been paying then grotesque salaries for years.
Now, when will they be brought to account.
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October 24, 2013 8:37am
EAD

Outstanding article from one of World’s leading Austrian economists/Libertarians; Thomas Sowell on “Race Hustlers”.

http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2013/10/22/racehustling-results-n1729101

Some excerpts below:

There have been many ponderous academic writings and dour editorials in the mainstream media, lamenting that most people born poor cannot rise in American society any more. Meanwhile, many poor immigrants arrive here from various parts of Asia, and rise on up the ladder anyway……

Often these Asian immigrants arrive not only with very little money, but also very little knowledge of English. They start out working at low-paid jobs but working so many hours, often at more than one job, that they are able to put a little money aside. After a few years, they have enough money to open some little shop, where they still work long hours, and still save their money, so that they can afford to send their children to college. Meanwhile, these children know that their parents not only expect, but demand, that they make good grades……….

Why have so many succeeded where so many African Americans and Latinos have failed? Maybe it is because they don’t have “Leaders” who tell them that the deck is so stacked against them that they cannot rise, or at least not without depending on “leaders.”…….

Such “leaders” are like the people who said that the laws of aerodynamics showed that the bumblebee cannot fly. Those who have believed such “leaders” have in fact stayed grounded, unlike the bumblebees….
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October 24, 2013 8:46am
Odakyu-sen

When I was a kid, I liked to pull things apart to see how they work.

There are some questions that I am considering regarding the following incident reported in the Herald.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11145337

1. Does the burqa-wearing student consider how the locals view her attire?
2. Does the student wear a burqa out of habit (without giving it any thought)?
3. Does the student feel compelled to wear a burqua? If so, why?
4. Is this compulsion internal (due to the student’s own beliefs) or imposed by others?
5. If imposed by others, who are they? Are they here in NZ with the student?
6. Does the burqa-wearing student socialize with NZ citizens ? (This would present an opportunity for the exchange of ideas.)

Is it possible that the burqa-wearing student is simply naive, sheltered and clueless and was genuinely surprised by what happened to her in the supermarket?

Is she a victim? (How would you prove this?)
Is she a provocateur? (How would you prove this?)
Who benefits from such incidents? (Rationale: if some party is clearly to benefit, then there is a greater likelihood of such events being staged.) (Note: the party could be from either side of this little incident.)
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October 24, 2013 8:49am
Ross12

It looks like Whale Oil has been doing some more digging. If Brown thinks the Code of Conduct for the Council doesn’t apply to him then he needs to look at the Codes for JP’s because as Mayor he is also a JP. Their Code covers the JP’s PRIVATE life.
So Brown’s spinners will really be spinning now.

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2013/10/rules-len-apply/#more-114475
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October 24, 2013 8:50am
Pete George

Freedom of speech versus freedom of wearing what you like and freedom from abuse.

ODT: Fined for ordering woman to remove burqa

Farm worker Yuet Rappard appeared before justices of the peace in the Dunedin District Court yesterday and was found guilty of offensive behaviour and fined $500 for telling a student to remove her burqa on May 17.

Rappard, representing herself, did not dispute that she told a University of Otago student to take off her burqa at Gardens New World, but told the court she was expressing her freedom of speech.

”I said, ‘Shame on you, you should take it off. When in Rome you should do as the Romans do’.”

Rappard, who moved to New Zealand from the Netherlands when she was a child, believed burqas should be banned and felt ”intimidated” when she saw people wearing them.

But it was Rappard doing the intimidating.

The student, whose identity was suppressed, said being shouted at, first when she was at the checkout and then a few minutes later outside the supermarket, left her shaken.

”I was crying and shocked. I just felt lonely and scared,” she told the court.

She had since had nightmares and the incident had affected her studies.

Denials versus witnesses.

Rappard said that she did not use the words ”dirty Muslim” and was not shouting.

Checkout supervisor Caitlin Jenkins, who was serving the student when the incident happened, said Rappard moved to within 10cm to 15cm of the student’s face before shouting at her to take off the headscarf.

”I think she called her a dirty Muslim and I think she said, ‘You’re from New Zealand – take off the head scarf’.”

The incident left her and others in the supermarket shocked and she and another customer apologised to the student.

”I was quite offended. I didn’t really know what to do.”

When she witnessed the woman shouting at the student again outside the supermarket she told her boss, who called police.

I wouldn’t have called the police but I would have intervened.

Police prosecutor Tim Hambleton said Rappard’s actions were ”morally repugnant” and qualified as offensive behaviour because onlookers were shocked.

In finding her guilty, justice of the peace Ashley Broad said he did not deny the importance of freedom of speech, but said people exercising the right ”must not be offensive”.

Rappard was fined $500 and ordered to pay court costs of $130 and witness expenses of $50.

Speaking outside court, Rappard was unrepentant.

The guilty finding was an example of political correctness ”gone mad”, she said.

”Telling a woman to take a burqa off is in my mind not offensive,” she said.

Would she tell someone to take a scarf off? A hoodie?

It’s not political correctness gone mad opposing abuse and offensive behaviour.
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October 24, 2013 8:51am
Dirty Rat

So the disaster that is Solid Energy and the poor performance of Mighty River Power shares are not factors in the poor Meridian float price.

Bill English truly believes people are stupid
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October 24, 2013 8:55am
iMP

The ATHEIST car and what Jesus drives.

http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2013/10/24/the-atheist-car-and-what-jesus-drives/
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October 24, 2013 8:57am
alloytoo

~In finding her guilty, justice of the peace Ashley Broad said he did not deny the importance of freedom of speech, but said people exercising the right ”must not be offensive”.~

The whole point of freedom of speech is the freedom to be offensive.
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October 24, 2013 8:58am
alloytoo

Tom Jackson

I agree, we shouldn’t be selling Meridian yet!

They should have flogged off solid energy.
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October 24, 2013 8:59am
Carlos

I have a question guys that I hope you can help me out with.

I see that National may be very open to working with the Conservatives pre-election to help get them a seat and therefore gaining a viable coalition partner. Every article that I’ve read says that National could get behind Colin Craig, but would still put in a low-profile National candidate to run as well.

My question is why do they need to put in a National candidate as well? Is it to be perceived as “playing fair” and not being overly strategic? I don’t think the electorate votes affect the party vote so I’m wondering why they would do this. Why not just not contend the seat at all, to reduce any risk of a spit vote?

Any ideas? Cheers.
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October 24, 2013 8:59am
Odakyu-sen

“Meanwhile, many poor immigrants arrive here from various parts of Asia, and rise on up the ladder anyway……”

There are truly no greater chains than the self-imposed ones around men’s minds. –Anon
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October 24, 2013 9:03am
Ed Snack

Another victory for “Smart Diplomacy” and the Obama administration; Saudi Arabia is downgrading its diplomatic ties with the US, most directly over Syria but also as a general reaction to the clueless ness of the current adminsitration. Good on ya Barry, another massive win chalked up.
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October 24, 2013 9:05am
flipper

PG…
The only offensive behaviour was moving to 100-150mm (4 – 6ins) of a person and shouting.

Telling that stupid muslim woman to take off her burqa is NOT offensive.

$500 fine for that? C R A P . But then Dunedin is known for idiots ….
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October 24, 2013 9:08am
EAD

@ Odakyu-sen

“It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere” – Voltaire

FWIW, some of my other favourite quotes from that great Frenchman:

“I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it”
“Common sense is not so common”
“Stand upright, speak thy thoughts, declare The truth thou hast, that all may share; Be bold, proclaim it everywhere: They only live who dare”
“All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets”
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October 24, 2013 9:20am
igm

The politician (Cunliffe) for overloading this country with ragheads should be held to ransom.
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October 24, 2013 9:32am
Kea

Left Right and Centre (1,802) Says:

October 24th, 2013 at 8:27 am
(1) You’re not fat, it’s genetic.

The only way to get fat is to consume too many calories. No if’s or but’s.

Anyone who can prove otherwise will win a Nobel Prize and completely change our knowledge of physics. No amount of feel good lies will change that fact.
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October 24, 2013 9:58am
Jack5

Sports reporting in NZ has collapsed into celebrity pandering.

Past reporters such as McLean and Brittenden would never have done the arse licking of Funny Bill Williams that we read today, with the Hooerald reporting Williams will “take swagger” into the NZ league Kiwis, and Stuff reporting he will not box for the next three years (and thus face being thrashed and humiliated by Joseph Parker, which is unsaid in the report).

When it comes to Williams, the sports pages read like a trash glossy celebrity magazine. They insult the intelligence of readers.

Today:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11145399

AND
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/9320894/Sonny-Bill-rules-out-boxing-for-three-years
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October 24, 2013 9:59am
Redbaiter

“It’s not political correctness gone mad opposing abuse and offensive behaviour.”

Applying such subjective definitions to an article that underpins historical freedoms in the west is a good indication of why the ignorant knuckle dragging thug Peter George should never ever disgrace our parliament.

The JP who heard the case in Dunedin is just as bad.

These statist scum who bar and punish free speech because it is “offensive” are the criminals of our times as the Nazis and the Communists have been criminals in times past.
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October 24, 2013 10:11am
Odakyu-sen

“It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere” – Voltaire

Nice one, Ed; however, is it a good idea (in the long term) to free fools?

Spencer provides some insight.

“The ultimate effect of shielding men from folly is to fill the world with fools.” – Herbert Spencer.
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October 24, 2013 10:13am
Jack5

Re the burqua incident involving a Dutch-born Kiwi (Pete at 8.51 and Flipper at 9.08).

Add to this the uproar about the incident a little further south (Invercargill) of a drunken passenger abusing a Muslim taxi driver. The passenger was to be prosecuted it was suggested at the time (I don’t know if he ever was, or whether the police accepted a grovelling apology).

Contrast this with Southland cops’ working over of a farmer with a Dutch surname at Greenhills. Are the southern cops showing anti-Dutch prejudice?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/9192568/Police-pay-after-tussle-with-farmer
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October 24, 2013 10:14am
liarbors a joke

..but not for fuel…why not?..Greedy oil companies thats why. Pricks.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/9319144/Bargains-as-dollar-strengthens
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October 24, 2013 10:19am
All_on_Red

Actually thank you Tom and your fellow morons on the left. Your bleating about Meridian means I can acquire the shares for less and because the dividend stream is the same I make more money!!!
Yippee, the rich get richer!
#unintended consequences
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October 24, 2013 10:24am
Odakyu-sen

What was that stereotype I read about “the Dutch are too honest to be polite and the British are too polite to be honest”…

…could this be a clash between Dutch and British cultures here in Dunedin over this burqa incident?
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October 24, 2013 10:25am
UglyTruth

Telling that stupid muslim woman to take off her burqa is NOT offensive.

Not to you perhaps, flipper, but then Christians are not known for their sense of justice.

As for stupidity, try this one on:

“I said ‘shame on you, you should take it off. When in Rome you should do as the Romans do’.”
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October 24, 2013 10:29am
Redbaiter

“Contrast this with Southland cops’ working over of a farmer with a Dutch surname at Greenhills. ”

Going by the names these were the same Nazi thugs who went after the taxi driver guy. Not all cops are thugs, but far too many of them are.
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October 24, 2013 10:31am
Redbaiter

As for stupidity, try this one on: “I said ‘shame on you, you should take it off. When in Rome you should do as the Romans do’.”

If people were penalised for saying stupid things you would be doing three life sentences by now.
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October 24, 2013 10:35am
UglyTruth

These statist scum who bar and punish free speech because it is “offensive” are the criminals of our times as the Nazis and the Communists have been criminals in times past.

Free speech does not mean that you can say what you like without consequences.

If someone makes false accusations, should they not be held to account?
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October 24, 2013 10:36am
UglyTruth

If people were penalised for saying stupid things you would be doing three life sentences by now.

Rodbeater, it’s time for you to put up or shut up.
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October 24, 2013 10:37am
dime

Its amazing that the greens & labour sabotage the share floats, cost taxpayers and investors a shit ton of money and then sit back and have a crack at the govt.

And on top of that, they get a pass.

You know youve been in the game too long when youre happy to fuck over taxpayers and everyone in sundry for a small political gain.
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October 24, 2013 11:18am
Weihana

alloytoo (223) Says:
October 24th, 2013 at 8:58 am

The whole point of freedom of speech is the freedom to be offensive.

No it isn’t. This is an oversimplification and really misconstrues what it means to be offensive in a legal context. People usually take “offensive” to simply mean “I don’t like what is being said”. Of course free speech means being able to express any opinion regardless of whether other people like that opinion. One is allowed, for instance, to express the opinion that burqa’s should be banned.

But this is not really what “offensive” means and certainly not in a legal context. The notion of “causing offence” has taken on this bastardized interpretation because of a long line of (usually religious fundamentalists) complaining about perfectly peaceful forms of expressions but which communicate something that undermines or mocks their (usually religious) beliefs.

But the term “offensive” is a broad term and when prohibiting certain forms of speech it is perfectly reasonable to consider the manner in which something is expressed and whether it harms another person. It is questionable whether being unwillingly confronted in a public place is a peaceful form of expression. Should I be able to go into a grocery store and loudly express my view in front of the parent of a down-syndrome child that I think such children are ugly and should be aborted? Or would such behaviour be grossly offensive and injurious to that mother and child going about their lawful business? “Hey, I’m just expressing my opinion” is not really a justification in my view. Such behaviour is more characteristic of harassment than peaceful expression.

But therein lies the problem as it is not clear exactly when something becomes “offensive” enough to justify restriction. But to assume that one can just say whatever they like and that the mother and child have nothing to complain about is not good enough. They have been harmed and impinged upon as any reasonable person would agree. It’s a grey area and life, and especially the law, is full of such situations. You cannot resolve these matters by taking an ideological view that ignores the complexities and the fact that factors must be balanced, such as the right of people to go about their lawful business without being imposed upon in an unreasonable way. Free speech is not absolute and you cannot make a simple rule that will resolve every imaginable scenario.

The fact that onlookers were shocked is a very good indicator that the behaviour in question was unacceptable and out of line. If she wants to do that, come to Kiwiblog.
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October 24, 2013 11:20am
Redbaiter

“The fact that onlookers were shocked is a very good indicator that the behaviour in question was unacceptable and out of line.”

Bullshit. You are nothing but a repugnant fascist thug. Its all you have ever been and everything you have ever written here has reinforced that view. More than a thug actually, you are a miseducated sly and slippery danger to western civilisation.
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October 24, 2013 11:28am
UglyTruth

One is allowed, for instance, to express the opinion that burqa’s should be banned.

Persons are allowed to do things, men exercise their rights.
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October 24, 2013 11:35am
kowtow

While the young woman in Dunedin should be free to express whatever opinions she wants , no one is free to stick their face in someone elses’ and gob off at them.

That’s not freedom of expression ,that’s borderline assault.
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October 24, 2013 11:41am
Pete George

“The fact that onlookers were shocked is a very good indicator that the behaviour in question was unacceptable and out of line.”

That appears to be correct. The views of person who was abused, a checkout operator, others who witnessed it, the police, the prosecutor and the JP are all good indicators the abuse was generally seen as unacceptable and out of line.
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October 24, 2013 11:42am
Weihana

Thank you for that value judgment Redbaiter. Charming as always. I will observe that the vast majority of your utterances are tiresome and repetitive but that on occasion you will contribute something insightful.

🙂
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October 24, 2013 11:42am
Redbaiter

To me, what the woman said or did in the supermarket is not the issue- The nub of the matter lies in what those administering justice said afterwards, and those pronouncements were appalling in their ignorance.

I would never call the police for anything said to me in a public place. I would never condone the statements made by the police and the JP. To wit-

Police prosecutor Tim Hambleton said Rappard’s actions were “morally repugnant” and qualified as offensive behaviour because onlookers were shocked.

In finding her guilty, Justice of the Peace Ashley Broad said he did not deny the importance of freedom of speech, but said people exercising the right “must not be offensive”.

These words open the door to prosecution for virtually any speech, and these officials should both be fired from their positions for their appalling ignorance of the traditional principles that underpin western freedoms.
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October 24, 2013 11:49am
nickb

A journalist needs to ask Cunliffe and Turei whether any MP in the Labour or Green parties has directly or indirectly purchased shares in the floated SOEs.

Because not only would doing so be hypocritical, it could be seen as worse than that if their policies are driving down the shares so they can buy them at a lower value…
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October 24, 2013 11:51am
nickb

Exactly Redbaiter.

If offensive language is a crime then most Kiwiblog commenters should be in jail.

Will we see a comment from Ministry of Love, whoops sorry the Race Relations and Human Rights Commissioners on the issue? Telling us that they are pleased with the verdicts?
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October 24, 2013 11:54am
nickb

That appears to be correct. The views of person who was abused, a checkout operator, others who witnessed it, the police, the prosecutor and the JP are all good indicators the abuse was generally seen as unacceptable and out of line.

I felt your attempts on Kiwiblog to pin the leaking of secret state documents on innocent public servants was unacceptable and out of line. Do you intend to hand yourself in to the Dunedin Central Police Station?
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October 24, 2013 11:57am
Weihana

I would never call the police for anything said to me in a public place.

One presumes you would be the one for which the police were called. 🙂

These words open the door to prosecution for virtually any speech…

No it doesn’t. It merely opens the door for internet warriors to get hysterical on matters they have no idea about.
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October 24, 2013 11:57am
kowtow

ed snack

Re Obummer and the Saudis.

The Saudis are pissed off that their gassing of the Syrian citizens didn’t bring in the US and other western nations,much and all as idiots like Hollande and Cameron would that stategy to have worked.

Much as I hate to say it Obummer is right to stay out of it.That’s what the Saudis aren’t happy with. They should be man enough to do their own fighting ,afterall our shit media keep telling us that they’re a brave, noble warrior race.

Fuck ’em all.
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October 24, 2013 11:57am
Redbaiter

“That appears to be correct. ”

You sad ignorant irrational ignorant of history lamer. Once, in Germany, it would have been offensive and shocking to bystanders to say “take the star off that Jew and release her”.

Once, in the killing fields of Cambodia, it would have been offensive and shocking to bystanders to say “release that university academic and do not put him against a wall and shoot him”.

It is damn ignorant small minded fools like you Peter George who have empowered and enabled dictators and tyrants throughout human history.
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October 24, 2013 11:58am
Weihana

If offensive language is a crime then most Kiwiblog commenters should be in jail.

It was the behaviour that was offensive. This woman was not on Kiwiblog. She was in a public place accosting someone going about their lawful business in a manner that shocked onlookers.
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October 24, 2013 12:00pm
Weihana

Redbaiter,

Offensive is a broad and subjective term. That does not imply that anything that can be considered offensive is prohibited speech. A court will always interpret the term in the context that people have a right to free expression. It is when this right conflicts with the rights of others that it is justly restricted. You can swing your arm but not if someone’s face is in its path. The rights of the individual must be balanced against the rights of others. It’s a simple concept, strange that you should have such difficulty in comprehending it.
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October 24, 2013 12:05pm
Redbaiter

“It merely opens the door for internet warriors to get hysterical on matters they have no idea about.”

Your problem with Redbaiter is that I do have an idea, and that is why you would call the police and have me prosecuted if you could.

This is the politicization of our culture and at its root is the belief that we must allow western culture to be used as a doormat for every other culture. I do not subscribe to that belief and I never will, no matter how often tyrants like you declare such views as”inappropriate” or “unacceptable”.

It is bad enough that our political parties have all agreed not to discuss this matter. We are living in a society where the political class will do anything it can to ensure that only thoughts that agree with their own can be voiced. I will always resist this condition, for unlike Progressive fascists, I value and do not want to lose the traditional freedoms our forbears gave us.
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October 24, 2013 12:06pm
Pete George

Offensive language on a blog is quite different to offensive behaviour in a supermarket.
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October 24, 2013 12:10pm
Weihana

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy

Redbaiter, read this it may help you understand.
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October 24, 2013 12:11pm
Redbaiter

If you are so smart as to tell me what to think Weihana, why are you apparently so unaware of Wikipedia’s penchant for Progressive bias. I am as likely to click of a link to Wiki from you as I am to salute a picture of Che Gauvera.

Fuck that anyway- this is fascism pure and simple and because so many accept it is no reason for me to do the same.

Read Fromm’s “The Sane Society”. (he’s one of you)
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October 24, 2013 12:15pm
Weihana

Your problem with Redbaiter is that I do have an idea, and that is why you would call the police and have me prosecuted if you could.

Like many I’m sure your manners are somewhat improved in person. It is much easier to be offensive via a keyboard than in person. I’m confident you would mind your own business and avoid confrontation.
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October 24, 2013 12:16pm
Pete George

Redbaiter, are you unaware that you are actually supporting the Nazi or Pol Pot type persecution you are using as examples?
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October 24, 2013 12:18pm
Weihana

Redbaiter,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplication

Is this page also biased towards progressives? The wiki on Algebra must be a full-on communist conspiracy! 🙂
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October 24, 2013 12:19pm
Redbaiter

You are just wasting my time with your attempts at cuteness Weihana.

Of course there is no bias in matters of mathematics, but wherever progressive bias is able to intrude, such as in politics or whatever, it is there in spades.
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October 24, 2013 12:22pm
Redbaiter

“Redbaiter, are you unaware that you are actually supporting the Nazi or Pol Pot type persecution you are using as examples?”

It is you and your thug officials who are arresting and jailing people, not me.
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October 24, 2013 12:24pm
Redbaiter

“Like many I’m sure your manners are somewhat improved in person. It is much easier to be offensive via a keyboard than in person. I’m confident you would mind your own business and avoid confrontation.”

Anything I say on this blog I would say to a person’s face. No problems. As that lying POS Peter George will discover if I ever muster the energy to travel to Dunedin.
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October 24, 2013 12:27pm
Tauhei Notts

Possibly off topic but it is General Debate.
I see where Mighty River Power averaged 6.437 cents per kilowatt hour of power sold at the wholesale level.
My latest bill, nett of GST and prompt payment discount came to 17.07 cents per kilowatt hour.
That’s one hell of a difference between me and their dam which is just 41 kilometres away.
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October 24, 2013 12:28pm
Pete George

RB – you’re supporting public persecution, something practiced by Nazis and Pol Potters.

I said I didn’t support police involvement but would have spoken up about the persecution if I had seen it.
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October 24, 2013 12:28pm
Pete George

“Anything I say on this blog I would say to a person’s face. No problems. As that lying POS Peter George will discover if I ever muster the energy to travel to Dunedin.”

Do it. I’d like to meet you.

When ‘Colonial Viper’ revealed their identity on The Standard on Sunday I found out I knew the person and had talked with them several times. Nice guy, good to talk to but different politics.
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October 24, 2013 12:30pm
liarbors a joke

@Tauhei Notts

Gawd damn thank you very much for your contribution…no wonder my first MRP dividend was enough to fund a return ticket to Asia.
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October 24, 2013 12:34pm
Redbaiter

“When ‘Colonial Viper’ revealed their identity”

Well really? One I would really like to see reveal their identity is that lying coward Petal /Pete, but the sycophantic weasel is so far up Slater’s arse it would be impossible to find him anyway.
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October 24, 2013 12:37pm
Weihana

Of course there is no bias in matters of mathematics, but wherever progressive bias is able to intrude, such as in politics or whatever, it is there in spades.

Please point out the progressive bias in the following example:

The heap

The fallacy can be described in the form of a conversation:
Q: Does one grain of wheat form a heap?
A: No.

Q: If we add one, do two grains of wheat form a heap?
A: No.

Q: If we add one, do three grains of wheat form a heap?
A: No….

Q: If we add one, do one hundred grains of wheat form a heap?
A: No.

Q: Therefore, no matter how many grains of wheat we add, we will never have a heap. Therefore, heaps don’t exist!

Pretty simple. I can’t really see the progressive bias there. I’ll contribute the progressive bias, I just think it’s important for you to understand the concept behind the continuum fallacy because I think it applies in the present context.

My premise is that offensiveness is itself a continuum given that possible scenarios are infinite. At one end we have the mere communication of an opinion that someone else doesn’t agree with. At another end we have behaviour that impinges on the rights of others. Where exactly we cross from “free speech” to “infringing on the rights of others” is vague. But, that doesn’t mean the concept is invalid because it is vague.
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October 24, 2013 12:38pm
Redbaiter

It does not bloody well matter Weihana because the reality is that the offender is being prosecuted by means of bogus charges for breaking unwritten social dictates. It is meant to be a warning to us all.

The degree of detail you introduce is just a smokescreen to try and cover up Progressive fascism.
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October 24, 2013 12:45pm
SGA

Redbaiter at 11:49 am

I would never call the police for anything said to me in a public place.

To be fair, neither did the woman; the supermarket did. Fair enough, I guess. Who wants some crazy yelling at their customers while they are doing their shopping; not good for business.
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October 24, 2013 12:52pm
Weihana

Redbaiter (5,872) Says:
October 24th, 2013 at 12:45 pm

It does not bloody well matter Weihana because the reality is that the offender is being prosecuted by means of bogus charges for breaking unwritten social dictates.

They are not unwritten. The right of people to go about their business without being accosted and harassed by offensive behaviour is common knowledge. Your problem seems to be that you are so lacking in judgment that you cannot tell when your behaviour is unacceptable.
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October 24, 2013 12:59pm
Manolo

The incompetent Kenyan could be eating humble pie: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/obamacare-mandate-may-be-delayed-2013-10-23?link=MW_home_latest_news
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October 24, 2013 1:02pm
Redbaiter

“Your problem seems to be that you are so lacking in judgment that you cannot tell when your behaviour is unacceptable.”

Your problem seems to be that you cannot read. I will always be proud to be guilty of infringing the laws maintained by scum like you who use such words as “unacceptable’ to prosecute people.

What you really need to do is take responsibility as a Progressive for your incremental destruction of our civil society which is the real reason the event in the supermarket occurred.
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October 24, 2013 1:12pm
Redbaiter

How many of those supporting the prosecution of this woman were ready to prosecute homosexuals for offensive behaviour during the Hero parade?

Fuck all.

Why?

Because you’re progressive fascists, intent on using the power of government and the law to enforce uniformity of thought and political ideology.

Offense is a one way street with the arrows painted by Progressives.
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October 24, 2013 1:19pm
Kea

the reality is that the offender is being prosecuted by means of bogus charges for breaking unwritten social dictates.

Blah blah blah…

You would not have written that if it were a Christian claiming to be be “offended”. The double standard suggests you do not hold the values you claim to.

You are insincere and a fake.
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October 24, 2013 1:26pm
Kea

And I could barely imagine the hysteria and wailing, on KB, if someone was rude to one of “gods chosen” ones !
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October 24, 2013 1:33pm
Kea

Yes indeed. Imagine if someone approached a young jewish girl and told her to take off her clothes or go home !

I wonder if Red ect would be taking the same line.

[of course for jews “home” is where ever they say it is. It could be where her family has lived for centuries in Europe, or it could be some place in the Middle East inhabited by other people, on the basis of some grubby little fable they made up. Hard to tell with them jews.]
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October 24, 2013 1:52pm
Tom Jackson

I agree, we shouldn’t be selling Meridian yet!

There was no argument for continuing with the sale other than pure bloody mindedness. Even if you were for the sale, it would have been far better to have sold it in good economic times

It’s been an absolute shambles. I notice that Farrar is too cowardly to start a thread on it. C’mon Dave. 🙂
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October 24, 2013 1:58pm
Tom Jackson

Yes indeed. Imagine if someone approached a young jewish girl and told her to take off her clothes or go home !

Based on my personal experience with Natalie Portman, they invariably choose to go home. 🙁
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October 24, 2013 1:59pm
flipper

This does not LOOK GOOD for Judge Gittos….and calls his calls his competence into question. Fool!….
***

Banks seeks judicial review of Judge’s decision

by Cameron Slater on October 24, 2013

In an unusual move Banks will be lodging papers at the High Court in Auckland today seeking a review of the decision of Judge Phil Gittos of the Auckland District Court to commit him to trial on whether he knowingly filed an donation return that was materially false.

While granting such a review is rare Banks could get there.

The Gittos oral decision is full of errors. It is almost as if the judge did not read the witness statements. Here are a few.

The opening line of the decision cites the offence as being one under the “Local Elections Act.” It is actually the Local Electoral Act. It doesn’t get any better.

The Judge says that McCready produced evidence to show that all three of the donations in question were given personally to Banks. Only one small problem. No such evidence was put into Court by anyone.

DotCon and Tempero (the hired henchman) never claimed to have given the cheques to Banks. Tempero says the Financial officer of Megastuff was tasked with depositing the donations. Banks’ campaign Treasurer agrees. He says the cheques were deposited directly into the campaign bank account as two 25k deposits with no identifying information on the bank records some weeks after the meeting between Banks and DotCon took place. The Treasurer controlled the bank account records Banks never saw them.

The evidence of both Tempero and the Campaign Treasurer is supported by the police investigation (the executive summary is available online) that establishes that the donations were deposited by Dot Con employee not by Banks or any of his campaign crew.

Later the judge repeats the error and says DotCon gave evidence that Banks flew in a helicopter to DotCon’s mansion discussed donating to the mayoral campaign and that “two cheques were given to Mr Banks” He says this must have been memorable for Banks given the circumstances. That might be so if it happened.

As for the Helicopter? DotCon says Banks drove to the meeting where the donation was discussed.

In a final irony the judge had access to the Banks donation return longer than the candidate did. He must have looked at it. Even then he got the number of pages of the return wrong and the number of donations.

For far too long Judges and courts have indulged litigants in person…time to revisit this case and use it as an example to tidy up laws surrounding vexatious litigants. “
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October 24, 2013 2:01pm
Weihana

Redbaiter (5,874) Says:
October 24th, 2013 at 1:19 pm

How many of those supporting the prosecution of this woman were ready to prosecute homosexuals for offensive behaviour during the Hero parade?

Fuck all.

Why?

Because such behavior does not impinge upon the rights of anyone else. If people want to parade/protest that the burqa should be banned then they have every right to. They do not have a right to accost individuals in a public place who are going about their business. A more reasonable analogy would be a homosexual/atheist confronting someone in a supermarket wearing a cross and harassing them about their religion. I would not condone that behaviour either.

For someone who preaches traditional values you seem surprisingly unable to comprehend basic civility.
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October 24, 2013 2:16pm
Redbaiter

“Based on my personal experience with Natalie Portman, they invariably choose to go home.”

That was most likely because it was you who said it Tom.
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October 24, 2013 2:19pm
Redbaiter

“They do not have a right to accost individuals in a public place who are going about their business.”

Which is exactly what homosexuals did, but due to the climate of fear created by “defenders of traditional liberties” like you Weihana, and what happened to the woman in the Dunedin supermarket, many people are too intimidated and fearful to express their unhappiness at this event.
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October 24, 2013 2:25pm
Kea

I want to see what Red has to say when someone tells a Catholic Nun to get her silly head gear off or go home 🙂

If you ask me we should send all those Middle Eastern cults back home to the desert.
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October 24, 2013 2:34pm
Weihana

Redbaiter (5,877) Says:
October 24th, 2013 at 2:25 pm

Which is exactly what homosexuals did,

No it isn’t. What you really mean is “over there are people saying and doing things I don’t approve of so I’m going to go over there and make it an issue”.
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October 24, 2013 2:37pm
Redbaiter

Fuck off please Kea, I am not the slightest bit interested in responding to your numerous false allegations. You’re a liar and a coward as well as a hopelessly confused political neophyte with nothing to add to any discussion and who comes here only to draw attention to himself.

You’re a narcissistic egotist who like your dumbarsed mate LRC have political perceptions that are so hopelessly muddied and you are also so self infatuated you both bore me stupid.
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October 24, 2013 2:40pm
Kea

I am not the slightest bit interested in responding to your numerous false allegations

But you did anyway. 🙂

Kea is your favourite subject, though you seem unable to refute or engage Kea on the actual comments or points raised.

You are fake and a fraud Reddy. You stand for nothing and have no reasoning behind your stated beliefs. No amount of cut n’ pasting USA sourced coservative boiler plate crap will hide that.
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October 24, 2013 2:45pm
Weihana

Redbaiter (5,879) Says:
October 24th, 2013 at 2:40 pm

Fuck off please Kea, I am not the slightest bit interested in responding to your numerous false allegations.

“I’m not interested in responding” is still a response. A non-response is when your name doesn’t appear and the number in the brackets does not increase by one. 🙂
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October 24, 2013 2:46pm
Redbaiter

“What you really mean is “over there are people saying and doing things I don’t approve of so I’m going to go over there and make it an issue”.”

No I am not saying that. If anyone went “over there” it was the homosexuals who took their offensive antics into a city’s main thoroughfare and paraded themselves in other people’s faces who may have been in Queen street for various other reasons. With their children in tow.

It is typical of prog hypocrisy that you will cheer for such an insult to our civility yet champion the prosecution of the supermarket woman. You and your ilk are the reason speech and thought is under threat in NZ like it never ever has been before.
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October 24, 2013 2:49pm
Kea

My name is Red.

I stand for religious freedom… BUT only for Christians and Jews.

The rest should be wiped out to preserve democracy and liberty, because that is what I stand for.

I stand for freedom of speech… BUT only approved speech that says what I think.

I stand for democracy… BUT only if the electorate supports the sorts of things I approve of.

My name is Red. I am a conservative. 🙂
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October 24, 2013 2:49pm
stigie

Sounds like everyone on here is a narcissistic egotist, dumbarsed and hopelessly muddied Reddy ?
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October 24, 2013 2:50pm
Redbaiter

““I’m not interested in responding” is still a response.”

You need to stop editing other people’s words to suit your own purposes troll, a thing your buddy Kea is also doing regularly. I said I am “not interested in responding to your false allegations”, and I did not. So fuck off you tiresome mincing troll.
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October 24, 2013 2:51pm
Redbaiter

“Sounds like everyone on here is a narcissistic egotist, dumbarsed and hopelessly muddied Reddy ?”

If your comprehension skills are that dysfunctional Stigie it is a cross you will have to bear.
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October 24, 2013 2:52pm
Pete George

“You and your ilk are the reason speech and thought is under threat in NZ like it never ever has been before.”

RB, you should be applauding the fact that he and his ilk can think and say what they like, even if it’s different to what you want them to think and say.

I feel as free to say what I like in a supermarket as I ever was.
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October 24, 2013 3:01pm
Redbaiter

You sanctimonious prig. You are one of those who has no opinions that differ from the ruling class. So why would you ever fear prosecution? You wouldn’t ever say anything of enough real substance to worry any one of our Prog fascist watchtower guards.
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October 24, 2013 3:04pm
Weihana

Redbaiter (5,880) Says:
October 24th, 2013 at 2:49 pm

No I am not saying that. If anyone went “over there” it was the homosexuals who took their offensive antics into a city’s main thoroughfare and paraded themselves in other people’s faces who may have been in Queen street for various other reasons. With their children in tow.

So their behaviour is offensive merely because it is in public? If you don’t want your children to see the hero parade (or a Christmas parade because you’re a militant atheist) then don’t go. It is a question of reasonableness Redbaiter and, as you demonstrate day in and day out, you possess none of it. There is a world of difference between undertaking an expressive activity in a shared public space, that some might disagree with, and harassing individuals going about their business. If a group wishes to use a main thoroughfare to parade or protest then they should be accomodated. The mere fact of their presence and that you disagree with it does not establish that you are being harassed or impinged upon.

Being personally shouted at while you are trying to shop is not reasonable and most people would agree it is not civil. If she wanted to protest, she should have gone out on the footpath and not harassed individual people walking by. I would say the same to anyone regardless of the opinion being expressed.
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October 24, 2013 3:09pm
Judith

Redbaiter (5,883) Says:
October 24th, 2013 at 3:04 pm

You sanctimonious prig …

Good to see you embracing some new terms Red … 😉
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October 24, 2013 3:09pm
Judith

Redbaiter (5,884) Says:
October 24th, 2013 at 2:40 pm
Fuck off please Kea…

Like it’s a whole lot more polite when you put a ‘please’ in your fu*k offs!!
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October 24, 2013 3:12pm
Sidey

Pete George may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but at least he’s capable of controlling himself enough to engage without resorting to abusing anyone who doesn’t subscribe exactly to his viewpoint. And puts his own name to his own views.

Agree with him or not, he doesn’t lower himself to the incredibly low standards Redmuppet drags himself up to.

I, on the other hand, don’t share PG’s lofty personal standards. Redstain is a lying upticker and a gutless coward.
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October 24, 2013 3:22pm
Pete George

Nothing Red says is a new term Judith. He may have picked up that up from 2002 (coincidentally a discussion on free speech): http://nz.general.narkive.com/ANSSGxlB/invitation-to-redbaiter-to-apologise-like-a-man

Interesting. Comments to Redbaiter…

For the millionth time:

No one objects to you posting your ideas. I’m certainly not telling you
to leave this newsgroup and I’m not calling you any names.

People, me included, do object to your grotesquely offensive conduct and
the way you persistantly stalk others……all the while bleating about
how people are infringing your freedom, when in fact, they are merely
responding to your personal attacks by asking you to be civil.

And…

Your dominant message is the persistant abuse of others.
Your dominant behaviour is the stalking of others.

It isn’t your ideas people object. Many people here post similar ideas.

It’s your abusive behaviour and attampts to intimidate oither posters by
swmaping their messages with your abuse.

That’s the problem. It’s your problem.

Not much changed in eleven years. Same old.
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October 24, 2013 3:22pm
Redbaiter

“then don’t go”

So Queens street, a public thoroughfare for the use of all, is the exclusive property of homosexuals who want to strut their offensive shit. If there was ever any doubt about who is protecting traditional freedoms you’ve just dispelled it completely troll.

“Being personally shouted at”

She claims she did not shout actually, but there you go again, making it illegal to shout. There’s never any lines you prog fascists will not cross in pursuit of imposing your sick ideology is there?
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October 24, 2013 3:22pm
Redbaiter

Sidey, what marks people as gutless cowards is their propensity to falsely accuse others of the stark action of dishonesty without the slightest shred of proof. Its called the cowardly smear, and coming from you its never been more aptly entitled.

That applies to you and Peter George.
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October 24, 2013 3:25pm

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