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September 8, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 8 September 2013

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Longknives

Sunday Star Times continue their ‘Crim Hugging’….

http://www.stuff.co.nz/blogs/opinion/9140473/Espiner-Stop-police-chases
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September 8, 2013 7:44pm
nasska

Recently there were revelations that at Westminster 300000 attempts to access porn websites were made in the past year. We now find that 30,000 similar attempts were made from within the NZ parliament during the same period.

Shane has obviously forgotten his password again.
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September 8, 2013 8:00pm
Pauleastbay

A young man ran into his stunning neighbour wearing only a robe. He boy smiled, and she started chatting with him. As they talked, her robe slipped open, and it was obvious that she had nothing else on.
She poor kid broke into a sweat trying not too look, After a few minutes, she said ‘Let’s go to my apartment, I hear someone coming.’
she allowed her robe to fall off completely. Now nude, she purred at him, ‘What would you say is my best feature?’ Flustered and embarrassed, he squeaked, ‘It’s got to be your ears.’
Astounded, and a little hurt she asked, ‘My ears? Look at these breasts; they are a full 38 inches and 100% natural. I work out every day and my ass is firm and solid. I have a 28 inch waist. Look at my skin – not a blemish anywhere. How can you think that the best part of my body is my ears?’
Clearing his throat, he stammered… ‘Outside, when you said you heard someone coming… that was me!!!
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September 8, 2013 8:02pm
Pauleastbay

On Friday, A hooded robber burst into a bank and, at gunpoint, forced the tellers to load their cash into a plain brown bag.
As the robber approached the door, one brave customer grabbed the hood and pulled it off, revealing the robber’s face.
Without a moment’s hesitation, the robber shot the customer.
He then looked around the bank and noticed one of the tellers looking straight at him.
The robber instantly shot & killed her also.
Everyone in the bank, by now horrified, stared down at the floor in silence.
The robber yelled, “Well, did anyone else see my face?”
There was a long moment of dead silence in which everyone was terrified to speak.
Then, one old Australian named Bernie cautiously raised his hand and said,
“My wife got a pretty good look at you !!!!.”
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September 8, 2013 8:03pm
Redbaiter

GD becomes derelict at this point.

The children have arrived.
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September 8, 2013 8:08pm
Griff

Get a life you old twat.
its not your blog
Its not a conservonutter space for you to spout your stupid authoritarian garbage.
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September 8, 2013 8:15pm
nasska

….”The children have arrived.”…..

And now we have been joined by a single issue geriatric fool.

Welcome Baity. 🙂
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September 8, 2013 8:15pm
Kea

GD becomes derelict at this point.

The children have arrived.

And the po-faced KB Taliban leave. 🙂
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September 8, 2013 8:17pm
Pauleastbay

One day a florist went to a barber for a haircut. After the cut, he asked about his bill, and the barber replied, ‘I cannot accept money from you, I’m doing community service this week.’ The florist was pleased and left the shop.
When the barber went to open his shop the next morning, there was a ‘thank you’ card and a dozen roses waiting for him at his door.
Later, a cop comes in for a haircut, and when he tries to pay his bill, the barber again replied, ‘I cannot accept money from you, I’m doing community service this week.’ The cop was happy and left the shop. The next morning when the barber went to open up, there was a ‘thank you ‘ card and a dozen donuts waiting for him at his door.
Then a Member of Parliament came in for a haircut, and when he went to pay his bill , the barber again replied, ‘I cannot accept money from you. I’m doing community service this week.’ The Member of Parliament was very happy and left the shop.
The next morning, when the barber went to open up, there were a dozen Members of Parliament lined up waiting for a free haircut.
And that, my friends, illustrates the fundamental difference between the citizens of our country and the politicians who run it
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September 8, 2013 8:18pm
Kea

Griff, when addressing Red at this hour of the day, it is customary to add a smiley face 🙂
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September 8, 2013 8:19pm
Harriet

“….Harriet, So you admit a patch of the Middle East with a colourful history of numerous religions and cultures was given to one particular religious group by meddling Western powers as “spoils of war”….”

No. I said ‘given BACK to them’.

“…..if it is about war spoils, then the land can be retrieved by the same means in your view ? A recipe for disaster and opposed by many informed Jews themselves……”

No. Under the laws of war you are allowed to keep what you have ‘won’ if you were defending yourself. As has been said by Golda Meir ” The arabs want to slice up Israel piece by piece till we can no longer defend it. That’s balony.” That’s why the likes of Golan Heights will stay with Israel.

If you seriously think that Israel is the only ME country that needs the support of the US and her allies, then you’re wrong. Israel exports billions of dollars worth of hi tech equipment to Arab countries. Also, arab countries are also under threat from Iran. Not everyone in the ME hates Israel.

Israel has been at war for about 65 years – from the invasion the day after they were first legitimised by the UN[or what preceded it].

“….More Americans have probably died as a result of Israel than due to all the Muslim countries put together….”

More Americans have probably died as a result of England than due to all the European countries put together.

Seriously Kea, should’ve the US stayed out of WW2, because England declared war on Germany for invading Poland ? 😎
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September 8, 2013 8:20pm
cha

Bill Whittle nails it – Family Guy is the problem.
/

http://youtu.be/nghtSqfGcTE
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September 8, 2013 8:27pm
reversespin

The poll results announced on Q+A and One News was devastating for Grant Robertson. Trounced by Cunliffe across a range of measures and even given a good beating by Jones.

Of course the ABC faction/old guard will be working hard to swing in votes behind Robertson, but it is not as easy as it might have been – Jones is a helluva complicator for them. Surely various MPs/union delegates/party members will swing in behind the front runner – Cunliffe.

I suspect if they don’t and the ABC club manage to wrangle the leadership onto Robertson, the party faithful and the general voters will go feral on Labour. Suits me just fine……
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September 8, 2013 8:34pm
Kea

Harriet, many different cultures and religions have roots in the region. They have lived together in varying degrees of harmony for thousands of years. One particular religion can not lay claim to anything. They did not “win it” they were given it. The people it was given to did not even live there.

Do you really think it is reasonable that a person born and bred there, with family ties going back centuries, should be removed from his home, so that another person, born and bred in the UK or Russia, with family ties going back centuries in Europe, can take his land over ?

The people living there were thrown out so a bunch of born and bred Europeans and Americans could take over on the basis of their religion ! No matter how you cut it that is absurd. They even looked at making a home land in other places, like Uganda. Utter religious bullshit.

The Jewish religion was gifted Israel and defended it with aid and assistance from the West (which is where the Jews came from who populated the region). They are not brave and they did not do any of it based on their own efforts alone. They were handed it on a platter and greedly demand the US be bled dry to this day to prop up their religious empire.

But of course now things have become more complicated. Much of the present population was born there. They did not create this situation. They are not Zionists and most are not especially religious. The establishment of Israel was an incredible injustice and it has not benefited Jewish people at all.
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September 8, 2013 8:39pm
nasska

Kea

You’re missing one point. The land that was “gifted” to the Jews was sparsely populated semi desert. Those Muslims who weren’t exterminated by inter tribal warfare were a backward people who wandered around molesting their livestock.

Most were absorbed into Israel & practise religious freedom greater than possible in most Muslim run countries. They are not moaning about Israel…..that is left to the “natives” of Palestine who settled the area from what is now Jordan.
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September 8, 2013 8:50pm
Kea

Seriously Kea, should’ve the US stayed out of WW2, because England declared war on Germany for invading Poland ?

Yes. Not only that, they picked the wrong side, as usual.

Hitlers main concern was the Soviets. The efforts of the West weakened Germany to an extent a war against the Soviets could not be won. The Soviets went on to spread death and misery all over Central Asia, Eastern Europe and around the Caspian Sea. They threatened the security of the West for decades to come. The war only ended very recently for many of those poor people. They had to suffer the further indignity of being labeled commies by the Americans, as they were given the label of those who oppressed them. A typically ignorant Yank approach to foreigners. The things done by the Russians are among the worst in modern history and dwarf the holocaust. We enabled it.
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September 8, 2013 8:52pm
Kea

nasska, Fiordland is sparsely populated and undeveloped. Using your logic you would have no problem with the UK and America giving that chunk of NZ to the Muslims as a “homeland”. What a fucked up bit of logic. It is more the sort of thing I would expect from a god nutter. And nice how you tried to slip the “religious freedom” bullshit in there as if one thing supports the other. Did you really think you would not get pulled up on that ? Or do you think I can come and take over your house just as long as I give you “religious freedom”. ?

But just for shits and giggles I will play along: What is the required stocking rate before you consider it wrong for a foreign power to give away your land to a religious group ?
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September 8, 2013 9:00pm
Lucia Maria

This morning in yesterday’s GD @UglyTruth said:

Tell you what. How about you come up with some actual scholarship before you start with the abuse, Lucia Maria.

The “abuse” that Ugly was objecting to was me saying that he must be one of those “whacky alternative history nuts”. If Ugly considers that abusive, then Ugly might consider that he is too sensitive for an environment such as KiwiBlog’s GD. I certainly wonder how he’s lasted this long.

Ugly then links to an article by a Dr Dale Tuggy on the Trinity. A bit of research on Dale turned up that he used to be an evangelical Christian, but is no longer (presumably is now an atheist) and therefore no longer believes in the Trinity. Ok, that’s fine, but by himself he’s hardly authoritative, even if he is doctor of philosophy, he’s just a doctor of philosophy with an opinion. I’ve argued with these types before and a number of them are so up themselves that that think anything they disagree with can’t be right, and they wonder why people have problems with them. The bad ones get away with it by tangling themselves and others so up in knots that the only thing you can do is back away slowly and try not to run into them anymore.

I’ll take my philosopher (Peter Kreeft) over your philosopher (Dale Tuggy) any day. From Peter Kreeft’s book on Catholic Christianity:

The datum for Christian theology is first of all Christ himself. On the one hand, he called God his Father, prayed to him, loved him, taught his teaching, and obeyed his will. On the other hand, he claimed to be one with, and equal to. the Father. And he also promised to send the Spirit. The scriptural data from which the Church derives the doctrine of the Trinity are essentially

a. that there is only one God (Deut 6:4);
b. that the Father is God (Jn 5:18);
c. that the Son is God (Jn 8:58; and
d. the the Holy Spirit is God (Mt 28:19).

The data are historical: God’s progressive revelation of himself, first as the transcendent Creator “outside” us; then as the incarnate Saviour “beside” us; and then as the indwelling Spirit “inside” us. The reason for this progression, first Father (Old Testament), and then Son (Gospels), and then Spirit (Acts of the Apostles and the Church), is found in God’s very being, which is love (1 Jn 4:18), and then in the purpose and motive for God’s self-revelation to man, which is love. For love’s aim is always greater intimacy, deeper union with the beloved; so the stages of God’s self-revelation are the stages of increasing intimacy with man (from “outside” to “beside” to “inside”).

So, that explains how Catholics understand the Trinity. I’ve put that in to show it does have it’s own logic, even if you disagree with the belief, at least it’s cohesive and understandable to some level. And it’s elevating and beautiful, which is another criteria of mine for recognising truth.

I stand by what I said originally:

Without the incarnation there would be no salvation and no “Pauline doctrine”.

The incarnation was the event in history of God becoming man.

Ugly must think that the “Pauline doctrine” created the idea of Jesus, that he didn’t actually exist. Very few scholars reject the incarnation, yet Ugly seems to. That is why, Ugly, I called you one of those “whacky alternative history nuts”. I stand by that as well, as nothing you have said since has convinced me otherwise.

All that stuff about Paul and the Ebionites indicates that you’re heavily into the New Age/Gnostic/Alternative History theories. Who knows if you actually believe them or if you’re just using them as weapons.
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September 8, 2013 9:01pm
Redbaiter

“What a fucked up bit of logic. It is more the sort of thing I would expect from a god nutter. ”

Wow, a bit of sand in the vaseline.
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September 8, 2013 9:06pm
nasska

Kea

The religious freedom bit was essential otherwise I would have been accused of ignoring the particular brand of Godbothering the natives engaged in.

In any case the original inhabitants lost their autonomy many years before when the Ottomans took over the entire area.

After that:

….” In 1916 control of the southern portion of their Ottoman Empire was “mandated” to France and Britain under the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned (mandated) to France… and “Palestine” (today’s Jordan, Israel and “West Bank”) was mandated to Great Britain. “…..

Ref: http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

Since the land was spoils of war the Brits & the French were entitled to do what they wanted with it….eventually they chose to allow the Jews to settle the area. To deny this as fact is to rewrite history the way the TOW bludgers do in NZ today.
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September 8, 2013 9:15pm
Kea

All that stuff about ~~Paul and the Ebionites~~ the Trinity indicates that you’re heavily into ~~the New Age/Gnostic/Alternative~~ Catholic History theories. Who knows if you actually believe them or if you’re just using them as weapons.
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September 8, 2013 9:17pm
mikenmild

‘Since the land was spoils of war the Brits & the French were entitled to do what they wanted with it’.

You describe that opinion as a fact. Almost as silly as Kea trying to identify the good guys in WWII.
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September 8, 2013 9:17pm
Kea

Almost as silly as Kea trying to identify the good guys in WWII.

Ok smart arse that leaves you the following choices.

1. You pick a preferred side and contradict yourself.

2. You are critical of one side and contradict yourself.

3. You have no preferred side and think all sides were equally good/bad.

4. You did not think before you pressed enter.

5. Your a wanker.

Which is it Mikey ? 🙂
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September 8, 2013 9:22pm
Lucia Maria

Kea,

It doesn’t take much brain power to make that sort of comment. I’d be far more impressed if you actually understood what I said.
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September 8, 2013 9:22pm
nasska

Sunday morning after the orgy at Baity’s. 🙂

Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tlojul02fyiwk12/Doll%209.jpg
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September 8, 2013 9:23pm
nickb

As I ran around Auckland’s CBD tonight my faith in humanity was restored when I saw numerous Penny Bright mayoral billboards in various states of vandalism, including devil horns, her eyes cut out, and Hitler moustaches among other acts of vandalism. Good to see the people of Auckland aren’t reserving this for John Palino billboards only, as I had previously thought.
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September 8, 2013 9:24pm
mikenmild

None of your 5 choices encapsulate the entire history of the Second World War, Kea. I’m just pointing out that ranking participants from bad to good or vice versa is pretty unimaginative.
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September 8, 2013 9:25pm
Kea

nasska, I see your point.

It is one big cluster fuck and we need to separate ourselves from the Middle East and its religions [ Christianity, Judaism and Islam. ] The Romans are not the force they once were and we no longer have to be burdened with the ignorant cult they imposed on the West after a brain fart by one of the famously nutty emperors.
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September 8, 2013 9:28pm
Kea

Mikey, yeah I though you would choke and not answer me. You scored an own goal there my friend. I did not rank anyone. I made a observation, with the benefit of hindsight.
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September 8, 2013 9:31pm
Kea

“Kea,

It doesn’t take much brain power to make that sort of comment. I’d be far more impressed if you actually understood what I said.”

Lucy, I am glad you got my point. 🙂
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September 8, 2013 9:32pm
mikenmild

I’d just go along with Churchill’s assessment: ‘If Hitler invaded Hell the least I would do would be to make a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons’.
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September 8, 2013 9:33pm
Lucia Maria

Kea,

Your point was to look like a smart-arse, indistinguishable from the other smart-arses on GD that do the same thing?

The Romans are not the force they once were and we no longer have to be burdened with the ignorant cult they imposed on the West after a brain fart by one of the famously nutty emperors.

Just goes to show you don’t read history either, as well as trying to act like a smart-arse.
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September 8, 2013 9:36pm
nasska

Kea

One of the greatest things about being an atheist is being able to see religions for what they are…..a power bases for the hierarchies that rule them. The British upper crust understood this when the first three sons were assigned to parliament, the military & the church.

That covered the seats of power of the time & not a great deal has changed.
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September 8, 2013 9:38pm
Kea

Lucy, you forgot to actually refute my statement. In fact, you forgot to say anything at all ! Try harder.

Mikey, oh so you DO have a preferred side. I kinda though you might have. 😉

Almost as silly as Kea trying to identify the good guys in WWII.
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September 8, 2013 9:40pm
mikenmild

Well, Churchill had the best lines. Pity about the Bengal famine though…
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September 8, 2013 9:44pm
Redbaiter

“One of the greatest things about being an atheist”

Is that you get to bore the shit out of every one on Kiwiblog with endless obsessive fucking bullshit.

Mentally crippled peanut.
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September 8, 2013 9:45pm
Lucia Maria

Kea,

What you said is refuted in my very first comment today, in the link to that book I gave. Do you really need me to spell it out in excruciating detail? Read more history, and up to date history, and then you’ll do a Homer, ie D’oh!
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September 8, 2013 9:45pm
Kea

nasska, yes just as Islam is now used as a political rallying point for the disenchanted and a counter against perceived Western hegemony.

All those Abrahamic cults are about controlling people not saving souls. At least with other spiritual followings they often encourage personal growth and enlightment. But the West got stuck with the worst of a bad bunch.
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September 8, 2013 9:45pm
mikenmild

Kea
Nice to know your theological acumen is right up there with your historical knowledge.
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September 8, 2013 9:50pm
Kea

Red, if you stop pulling the wing off of flys for a few moments and check out the GD on any given day, you will see it is seldom the atheists who start this. But we are happy to help our god addled friends correct their thinking and drag them kicking and screaming into the light. 🙂
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September 8, 2013 9:50pm
Kea

Mikey, this from the guy who reckoned I was “silly” for picking the good guys, then went on to pick the good guys himself !

Hint: Try and include some reference to the topic with your ad hominem attacks, so as not to look retarded.
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September 8, 2013 9:54pm
nasska

….”and drag them kicking and screaming into the light”…..

Some of the buggers put up a bit of resistance Kea but sooner of later they will walk in the sunlight. 🙂
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September 8, 2013 9:56pm
mikenmild

But I didn’t pick a good guy, did I? There is only what actually happened and imagined alternatives.
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September 8, 2013 9:57pm
Kea

Lucy, history is the worst enemy of your religion. It does nothing to support your biblical accounts and actively undermines them. It is bit cheeky to even reference it.
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September 8, 2013 9:59pm
mikenmild

I saw a good book today Kea, ‘Napolean: For and Against’. Where would you stand on that one?
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September 8, 2013 9:59pm
Kea

Mikey, so you reckon Hitler was no better or worse than Churchill ?

I agree re imagined alternatives. None of the likely [or actual] outcomes fill me with joy.
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September 8, 2013 10:01pm
mikenmild

Kea
No, just that Churchill was no flawless hero of the war, though a great leader and statesman.
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September 8, 2013 10:03pm
Lucia Maria

Man, you are arrogant, Kea.

Here’s another book for you, if the first one had too many pages. At less than half the size, there is Defending Constantine: The Twilight of an Empire and the Dawn of Christendom
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September 8, 2013 10:08pm
Kea

One thing often avoided in our chats is the long history of Christian persecution of the Jews. The famous Catholic, Hitler, drew heavily upon his Catholic upbringing to justify his treatment of Europeans who were Jewish.

These conflicts had a negative impact on the writers of certain parts of the New Testament especially the author of the gospel of John which was compiled about this time. In several places John’ s gospel associates “the Jews” with darkness and with the devil. This laid the groundwork for centuries of Christian characterization of Jews as agents of the devil, a characterization which found its way into medieval popular religion and eventually into passion plays.

In certain countries it often led to civil and political discrimination against Jews and in some instances to physical attacks on Jews which resulted in death. While some Popes, bishops and Christian princes stepped up to protect Jews, they were clearly a minority. It was only in the mid-twentieth century that the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations issued major statements repudiating this anti-Judaic theology and began a process of constructive Christian-Jewish interaction.

When the Nazis came on the scene in Germany they were able to draw upon the legacy of Christian anti-Judaism

http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/church/persecution/
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September 8, 2013 10:09pm
Reid

Further to my previous on Syria:

The ability of the Western countries to dominate international politics came to an end at the G20 meeting. The moral authority of the West is completely gone, shattered and eroded by countless lies and shameless acts of aggression based on nothing but lies and self-interests. Nothing remains of the West’s “moral authority,” which was never anything but a cover for self-interest, murder, and genocide.

The West has been destroyed by its own governments, who have told too many self-serving lies, and by its capitalist corporations, who offshored the West’s jobs and technology to China, India, Indonesia, and Brazil, depriving the Western governments of a tax base and the support of its citizens.

I’ve said many times the US in this century is where the UK was in the last, in terminal decline like a cartoon character running off the cliff in mid-air but not yet plunging, but unlike the UK did, I don’t think the US is going to quietly fade away. The way it’s looking, it’s going to be a very sudden, very nasty implosion. And I pity the people in it when it happens.
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September 8, 2013 10:16pm
Kea

Lucy, Ok I will draw upon your great knowledge of history. Why did you Christians persecute Jews until very very recently, stoning them to death for not converting and general shitty treatment ? Why did that change, did you forgive them for killing Christ ?

http://www.ftarchives.net/foote/crimes/c8.htm
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September 8, 2013 10:20pm
Lucia Maria

Kea,

You want me to comment on a book from 1887? Seriously?

I’m off to bed, I’ve got better things to do.
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September 8, 2013 10:28pm
Kea

Funny how Lucy just referenced a yarn about Constantine, a raving anti Jew of the highest order. It can hardly be overstated the horrors and oppression he inflicted on the Jews. You really need to research your religious heroes a bit more Lucy. The information is widely available.
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September 8, 2013 10:31pm
Kea

Lucy, since you like books about Constantine, here is another one for you along with a few exerts:

Constantine’s Sword: The Church and the Jews

James Carroll finishes where Daniel Goldhagen and John Cornwell left off by looking at historical Christian anti-Judaism that lead to the Jewish holocaust. He begins by contemplating the controversial Cross at Auschwitz and then examines Catholic Jewish hatred beginning with the New Testament and proceeding through the early Church, Constantine’s Holy Roman empire, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Reformation, and finally to Hitler. These threads of “justified” Christian hatred form a rope, a connecting arch through history that produced the foundation for Nazism to exist.

Support of Hitler was not only allowed to Catholics, but was required of them.

It was at Nicaea… at the council enshrining the Christian victory, that Constantine, forbidding the observance of Easter at Passover time, declared, “It is unbecoming that on the holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews; henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people.”

No Catholic-born Nazi– not Goebbels, Himmler, or Bormann; not even Adolf Hitler, who died with his name still on the rolls of the Catholic Church, and for whom the Catholic primate of Germany ordered the Requiem sung after his suicide– was ever excommunicated for being a Nazi. But, as Hans Kung observed, Pius XII “did not show the slightest inhibitions after the war, in 1949, about excommunicating all Communist members throughout the world at a stroke.”

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Carroll.htm
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September 8, 2013 10:37pm
Redbaiter

“you will see it is seldom the atheists who start this.”

That is patently incorrect. It is most frequently started by you or your dome headed pants pissing little hillbilly mate Narsekissa. Two peanut brained losers who should take your intellectually barren monotonous and obsessive crap elsewhere.
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September 8, 2013 10:39pm
Kea

Red, you are a liar. Most days start with your bum buddy kowtow trying to stir up religious hatred against one particular semitic group. You are not mistaken you are lying and hoping no one will spend a few moments checking.

Today it started here:

“Lucia Maria (1,584) Says:
September 8th, 2013 at 9:53 am
Both Ugly and Kea would greatly benefit from reading this recently published historical book on Christianity in Rome. It might off-set both of their fantastic ideas about the past which have been made apparent in the last few weeks.”
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September 8, 2013 10:42pm
Redbaiter

Wow, how stupid do you have to be to tell a lie that you can be tripped up on in thirty seconds?

Here’s what Steve North Shore said just before LM

“Gee it’s quiet, no God botherers – must be watching the yachting”

Fuck off, like your bald headed loser nut case mate you’re too easy, and you’re dull and boring.
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September 8, 2013 10:52pm
Left Right and Centre

Lucia Maria 10:28 pm yeah… like dream about the big day when you move towards the light and say howdy doody to skydaddy?
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September 8, 2013 11:10pm
Lucia Maria

Kea,

Read the review on Amazon for the book you quote by Omar Belsky. That’ll give you some perspective on it.

That and the fact that the book was written by a liberal ex-priest, who tend to be more than a little extreme in their condemnation of the Catholic Church.

Also, Hitler was automatically excommunicated from 1933 by virtue of the fact that he belonged to the Nazi party, there was no need to do a specific excommunication just for him.

PS. Do a google search on Lucia Maria Kiwiblog hitler and you’ll see we’ve had these conversations before.
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September 8, 2013 11:23pm
Redbaiter

“like dream about the big day when you move towards the light and say howdy doody to skydaddy?”

You need to learn some manners dummy sucker. Were your parents troglodytes?
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September 8, 2013 11:26pm
UglyTruth

So, that explains how Catholics understand the Trinity.

This was never the point of contention, Lucia Maria. The point of contention was that the trinity was not a part of Pauline doctrine, that it was developed later.

The incarnation was the event in history of God becoming man.

Lucia, your idea of what “God” is is not relevant here.

Ugly must think that the “Pauline doctrine” created the idea of Jesus, that he didn’t actually exist.

You reasoning is faulty, I don’t think that.

Very few scholars reject the incarnation, yet Ugly seems to. That is why, Ugly, I called you one of those “whacky alternative history nuts”.

The fact that I reject trinitarian doctrine (incarnation is part of that doctrine) does not mean that I believe an “alternative history”.

The trinity can be rejected by examining the characteristics of “God”:

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 1:27

“God” in this verse is a translation of Elohim, which is a plural Hebrew word. The singular of Elohim is Elah, which is linguistically related to “Allah” of Islam. Although Elohim is plural, the word is typically used in a singular sense, which leads to the confusing sense of the English translation of Gen 1:27.

The argument against the trinity is that Elohim has both male and female physical forms, but the trinity only has male forms – the “father” and the “son”.

All that stuff about Paul and the Ebionites indicates that you’re heavily into the New Age/Gnostic/Alternative History theories.

This is what I mean about Lucia Maria resorting to abuse when her argument fails.

What the stuff about Paul and the Ebionites shows is that the Ebionites made the right choice in rejecting Paul. This is because it was the disciples that rejected Paul who were relevant to the Biblical narrative when it ended (i.e. in the Book of Revelation), not the Christians.
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September 9, 2013 1:50am

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