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September 17, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 17 September 2013

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General Debate

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Ian McK

It would be fitting if “Tojo” (Cunliffe) came clean on whether he was complicit, along with King, Goff, and Clark, organising lifelong suppression of name, facts, and figures of an ex-Labour MP convicted on serious dishonesty charges. This charlatan, now being an elected regional council member, has influence allocating millions of ratepayers’ dollars in contracts for different projects. He also scribes left-wing propaganda for Fairfax on occasions.
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September 17, 2013 8:17am
flipper

It would be helpful Ian McK if you were to tell us the grounds upon which three Ministers supposedly intervened in the Courts to organise suppression of name and other details…… and the date.
Or are you also saying that the media (public) were excluded from the Court hearing, and were prohibited from publishing any details whatsoever????
Come clean. Enlighten us.
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September 17, 2013 8:33am
Pauleastbay

Flipper

I don’t know about the intervention by Ministers , it was a straight supression as I remember but its a travesty he got name surpression. Last time I put his name up on here the host banged me 30 demerits. Lets just say he an odious little prick with an enormous sense of entitlement, mind you that could describe about 100 of the bludgers in Wellington at any given time
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September 17, 2013 8:36am
kowtow

Terror in Washington.

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Washington-DC-Gunman-From-Fort-Worth-NBC-News-223948451.html
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September 17, 2013 8:39am
jcuk

Another twelve dead from America’s slack gun laws while two colorado senators loose their seats in a recall vote becuase they voted for gun control.
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September 17, 2013 8:42am
Redbaiter

“Another twelve dead from America’s slack gun laws”

Another gape jawed knee jerk moron fed his opinions by mainstream media progs.
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September 17, 2013 8:46am
flipper

Pauleastbay (4,199) Says:
September 17th, 2013 at 8:36 am
….Lets just say he an odious little prick with an enormous sense of entitlement, mind you that could describe about 100 of the bludgers in Wellington at any given time….

Thanks. for that PEB. I have no idea of any circumstances whatever. It just seemed an impossible scenario to me, and I would gladly hang all of those ex Ministers out to dry.;
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September 17, 2013 8:47am
Pauleastbay

Flipper

Cunnliffe was several years away from entering Parliament at the time and the suppression was in place. DPF knows all about it and the time scale
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September 17, 2013 8:49am
kowtow

The Colorado Senators lost their seats because they did not represent the wishes of their electorate.

It’s a minor detail I know but it’s called democracy. Fascists don’t like “the people” having any power.

I’d love to see a recall system here and MP’s accountable to a defined electorate. It would keep the bastards honest.

They are there to represent us ,not themselves.

Grass roots democracy is still alive and kicking in the USA despite all the Federalists best efforts.

And while it’s early days yet ,it would appear the real problem in this case is employment policy,not gun control.
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September 17, 2013 8:51am
flipper

thanks PEB
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September 17, 2013 8:56am
flipper

kowtow (5,187) Says:
September 17th, 2013 at 8:51 am
The Colorado Senators lost their seats because they did not represent the wishes of their electorate
****
You are talking a petition to recall over gun “control”, no ????
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September 17, 2013 9:05am
hj

Thinking about Meteria Turie saying she wants house prices to fall. Isn’t that what is supposed to happen – as in timely corrections?
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September 17, 2013 9:06am
Colville

it would appear the real problem in this case is employment policy,not gun control.

Its pretty hard to shoot a dozen people with an employment policy.
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September 17, 2013 9:06am
Colville

Ohhhh…. someone deleted their silly comment! 😉
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September 17, 2013 9:10am
flipper

Behold the power of taxpayer dollars…..
The Wall Street Journal on “The Cup”. Worth reading…

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323864604579066921570842370.html?KEYWORDS=America%27s+Cup
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September 17, 2013 9:16am
Yvette

On his first full day as Labour’s leader – David Cunliffe was talking tough.
Very tough.
He announced that Labour was going on a “war footing”.
Out came that hoary old chestnut that “today is the first day of the election campaign”.
– http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11125624

“Today is the first day of the Election campaign”?
What the fuck? Since the last Election all you have done is fluff about over changing your Leader twice and now you want to start you next Election campaign?
How about doing something as the bloody Opposition you were elected to be?

So far all you have done there is sabotage a process that had already passed into law – partial asset sales. Labour and the Greens, announcing a possible one power buyer plan, sabotaged the return to the tax payer on the asset sale, after their combined opposition to it failed.
The morals of that are close to treason. You didn’t have the honour to admit your failure and then act in the best interests of the country, which was to get the best results for something that was going ahead legally despite your feeble efforts.
Likewise with the fucking referendum on the same issue – the $9m cost of that, plus the tax payer money already spent on securing signatures should be added to the expenses of the campaign you say has started “today” [now, “yesterday”].

[Thinks: Is it an offense under Electoral Commission law for a Member of Parliament to announce you are election campaigning outside a campaign period? Just wondering 🙂 ]
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September 17, 2013 9:17am
Ian McK

Cunliffe was involved with immigration in government at the time of this interference, and it was a long time after the little thieving bastard had resigned. He was a demonstrating mate of Clark, Soper, etc.
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September 17, 2013 9:18am
Kea

Terror in Washington.

Kowtow, terror is an emotion not an action. But that aside, do you reckon it was “Muslims” or do you think it was again a disgruntled Christian American ? As it usually is.
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September 17, 2013 9:22am
kowtow

Colorado recall vote.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/16/knight-lessons-from-the-colorado-recall/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS

Employment policy.Colville I would not employ someone who fires a gun into a roof “cleaning it”. Whoever employed him,if he is the shooter needs a kick in the arse.
But then the demographics of Federal employment policy are heavily stacked in favour of certain “minorities”.

LBJ and his ‘Great Society” ,another Federalist.
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September 17, 2013 9:22am
kowtow

kea the troll says terror is an emotion. Tell that to the victims.
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September 17, 2013 9:23am
Kea

Another twelve dead from America’s slack gun laws

Yes. I am all for taking the guns off of American Military Bases.

Has anyone got the figures comparing deaths by random private citizens compared with deaths by the US Military ?
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September 17, 2013 9:24am
dime

““Another twelve dead from America’s slack gun laws”

cause no guy that served in the kiwi armed forces would ever be able to get a gun license..
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September 17, 2013 9:24am
kowtow

As it usually is.

Like Major Hassan.
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September 17, 2013 9:25am
iMP

Worse than death…. http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2013/09/17/worse-than-death/
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September 17, 2013 9:25am
Pauleastbay

Soper????

Enlighten us on that one Ian McK, you may well have more knowledge than me on the subject
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September 17, 2013 9:26am
Longknives

I like cats..
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September 17, 2013 9:26am
Pauleastbay

Are you talking Bazz or lesley?
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September 17, 2013 9:30am
kowtow

As it usually is…..like:

John Allen Muhammed ,the so called Washington Sniper who murdered ten people in a reign of terror in 2002.
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September 17, 2013 9:31am
Redbaiter

A random gallery of shooters-

http://michellemalkin.com/2006/07/29/a-random-gallery-of-lone-shooters/
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September 17, 2013 9:33am
Ian McK

Pauleast: I understand the thief has a relative attempting to join the trough snouters at the council!
Soper: 81 Bok tour.
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September 17, 2013 9:35am
Pauleastbay

No doubt, but as much as I’d like to blame Cunnliffe for starting WWII, the person we are talking about was in Court after he left Parliament but that was well before Silent T entered
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September 17, 2013 9:36am
Kea

kowtow, yes terror is an emotion, not a thing. I feel terror when I see what the US war machine is doing around the world… for example. Funny how you are all pretending to be upset by a few dead US military personel, but show none of this fake concern about the thousands who die fighting absurd wars in places they do not belong.

“John Allen Muhammed” Yes the ex US serviceman ?

Heard of Timothy McVeigh retard ?
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September 17, 2013 9:37am
Redbaiter

Go away troll.
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September 17, 2013 9:42am
Kea

Here is your boy kowtow:

“John Allen Muhammed”

John Allen Williams
John enlisted in the Louisiana Army National Guard in 1979 and, after seven years of service, volunteered for active duty in 1986.

He qualified with the Army’s standard infantry rifle, the M16, earning the Expert Rifleman’s Badge. This rating is the Army’s highest of three levels of marksmanship for a basic soldier. He was discharged from military service following the Gulf War, as a sergeant, in 1994 after service in the Persian Gulf.
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September 17, 2013 9:42am
Ross12

The latest from “command and control central”. Fom Connie Hendegaard

” Regardless of whether or not scientists are wrong on global warming, the European Union is pursuing the correct energy policies even if they lead to higher prices, Europe’s climate commissioner has said.”

I wonder how the 300,000 households in Germany( for a start) who had their power cut off last winter because they could not pay their bills, would think of this arrogant bureaucrat
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September 17, 2013 9:43am
Kea

Go away troll.

Red, keep it up. You are simply highlighting that you have nothing more than personal attacks to offer.

Any factual errors in my comments, I will be happy to correct.
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September 17, 2013 9:45am
Ian McK

Pauleast: I stand corrected. As for WWII, Cunliffe stated in “The Dominion” he would have preferred to sacrifice thousands of allied lives in preference to dropping the bombs on Japan. This is the type of person we have leading a major political party. He also has a desire to see the disestablishment of the RSA movement, because he believes, it glorifies war. He is no better than Clark.
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September 17, 2013 9:48am
Pete George

John Key makes a good point about the asset sale referendum.

“The referendum is a referendum asking a question whether someone supports asset sales or not, not whether they want the programme stopped. That’s a different question, actually.”

http://www.3news.co.nz/Key-Asset-sales-referendum-asks-wrong-question/tabid/1607/articleID/313495/Default.aspx

That’s one of the shortcomings of CIR, the question asked is rarely appropriate for the actual issue at the time of the referendum.

The question also asks if you are opposed to all of a number of specified entities being part sold. I’m opposed to Solid Energy being sold, but Mighty River Power is a done deal so is irrelevant. The referendum is simply a nonsensical party campaign tool, paid for by us.
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September 17, 2013 9:52am
wikiriwhis business

Example of how useless Regional Councils (in this case Waikato) are and how they are only there for large corporate entities of farms and allow these corporate entities to poison the land while picking on the little people.

Very valid, even from a Green

Green MP unhappy with WRC over chemical trespass

Waikato Regional Council has failed ratepayers, says Coromandel Green MP Catherine Delahunty after new figures showed no prosecutions despite 79 confirmed breaches of the Resource Management Act for chemical trespass.

Figures supplied to Waikato Times, under the Official Information Act, showed the regional council investigated 197 out of 198 complaints with 79 breaches confirmed but acted with one abatement notice, 16 warnings and 32 letters.

Thames farmer Ross Williams’ water supply was contaminated after a neighbour’s chemical spray crossed into his boundary more than 18 months ago, which initiated Ms Delahunty’s probe into council handling of the chemical trespass complaints.

“In this case and many others, the council has failed in their duty,” Ms Delahunty said. “They really need to take this a lot more seriously.”

More than 1100 complaints have been lodged to the 12 regional authorities around the country who responded with 187 breaches confirmed in the past five years.

“Waikato is very typical which is they don’t do anything. They do occasionally serve abatement notices,” she said.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/9172423/No-prosecution-for-chemical-trespass?cid=edm%3Astuff%3Adailyheadlines
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September 17, 2013 9:54am
Elaycee

So Cunliffe has just nominated David Parker as his Deputy.

Heh….

Popcorn. 😀
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September 17, 2013 9:54am
Longknives

Quoting Delahunty hardly gives your post credibility Wiki B..
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September 17, 2013 10:00am
wikiriwhis business

Have you ever sat at a traffic light burning gas
while there are no cars, bicycles, or pedestrians
anywhere near the intersection?

Aggravating, isn’t it?

Guess what…

Red lights and stop signs actual encourage reckless
and aggressive driving. That’s the evidence.

Prepare to be amazed at what happens when
the traffic lights are turned off.

Video:

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/24478.html
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September 17, 2013 10:10am
nickb

I am constantly amused by all of Kiwiblog’s resident farming experts. Have any of you even set foot on a farm in your lifetimes?
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September 17, 2013 10:14am
graham

Kea at 9:22 am

But that aside, do you reckon it was “Muslims” or do you think it was again a disgruntled Christian American ? As it usually is.

Do you happen to know if he was Christian?
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September 17, 2013 10:17am
Colville

I was on a farm yesterday arvo/night.

No bambi! Dammit!
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September 17, 2013 10:17am
Kea

graham , no. That is why I asked a question. Such things are of great interest to kowtow.
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September 17, 2013 10:28am
kowtow

kea ,the pseudo Syrian was the first to raise religion ,interestingly Islam for some strange reason.The interest in religion is all hers.
And on offering nothing but personal attacks her posts are liberally spiced with insults such as “retard” etc.

As to American soldiers being “in places they don’t belong” as she puts it,sensible people in the west continue,while it is still “western” to be grateful for their interventions in the two major crises of the last century.If they hadn’t this post would be in Japanese or German.
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September 17, 2013 10:36am
wikiriwhis business

“Quoting Delahunty hardly gives your post credibility Wiki B..”

The subject matter is the point. As usual someone criticising the signature instead of appreciating the painting
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September 17, 2013 10:40am
joana

Kowtow can speak for himself..Why do you need to call people names?
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September 17, 2013 10:41am
graham

A friend told the Star-Telegram today that Alexis was into Buddhism and meditation.

He said today that although his friend did have a gun, he ‘didn’t seem aggressive’ but was interested in Buddhism and liked to meditate.

Suthamtewakul added: ‘He loved to go to temple, go to meditate in Thai and English.’

He attended the Wat Busayadhammavanaram Meditation Center, but an assistant told the Post he seemed quiet but ‘aggressive’ on the inside and very tightly wound.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2422616/Aaron-Alexis-identified-DC-Navy-Yard-shooter.html

Some people (not naming anybody) may jump on this and cry “Ah ha! So he was a religious nutcase, that’s why he went on a shooting rampage!”

And others may question whether he had a tendancy to aggression and violence (one person in the article claimed that he didn’t seem aggressive, while someone else claimed he seemed quiet but ‘aggressive’ on the inside and very tightly wound) and maybe he got involved in meditation hoping to address what he perceived as a problem.

Which do you think it was, kea?
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September 17, 2013 10:49am
emmess

Hardly anything new but Russell Norman contradicts himself in two consecutive sentences

He said taking account of votes for the Conservative Party, which opposed asset sales but did not pass the threshold to get into Parliament, 51 per cent of electors voted for parties against the sales.

Norman said voting for Key or National did not mean someone supported asset sales.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11125836

Ergo, so voting for opposition parties does not mean someone opposes asset sales.
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September 17, 2013 10:50am
Weihana

graham (2,100) Says:
September 17th, 2013 at 10:49 am

A friend told the Star-Telegram today that Alexis was into Buddhism and meditation.

Why must people always look for the one reason something happened? There always has to be something to identify as the cause. People want simple answers and they despise explanations that are complicated.

Why did one individual do something terrible? Because he’s Christian? or because he’s a Muslim? or because he played video games? or….? There can’t be a near infinite number of circumstances and choices in this one man’s life that ultimately led to this fateful decision, it has to be just one simple cause that we can identify with based on little more than our own prejudices.

I tend to support gun control. But regardless of one’s views, individual cases involving extreme circumstances are not generally a good basis for policy either way. This one man does not appear to either justify or negate the need for gun control, or any other cause that one is predisposed to.
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September 17, 2013 11:12am
flipper

Ian McK (146) Says:
September 17th, 2013 at 9:48 am
Pauleast: I stand corrected. As for WWII, Cunliffe stated in “The Dominion” he would have preferred to sacrifice thousands of allied lives in preference to dropping the bombs on Japan.
***********

Thousands ??????
CRAP
It would have been millions.

Curtis Le May’s fire bomb raids killed more Japanese than both nukes combined – subsequent deaths included.
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September 17, 2013 11:17am
Harriet

HAhahhahahahahah – here is one fucken good slapdown of the World Wide Leader of the Progs! 😎

“…….In 1975, when Obama was goofing off through his freshman year at an elite Hawaiian prep school, twenty-two year old Putin joined the KGB. The opportunistic Putin stayed with “the organs” until 1991 when he schemed his way out of the abortive KGB-backed putsch against Mikhail Gorbachev. “As soon as the coup began,” said Putin later, “I immediately decided which side I was on.” That same year Obama — in his own words, “someone who has undoubtedly benefited from affirmative action programs during my academic career” — secured an unearned berth in the Ivy League at Columbia University,

In 1995, both Putin and Obama got political. The wily Putin, always one step ahead of the law, took control of the Saint Petersburg branch of the pro-government Our Home Is Russia political party. In 1995, terrorist emeritus Bill Ayers, recognizing Obama’s puppet potential, finished writing Obama’s memoir, got Obama appointed chair of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge grant, and held a fundraiser for his state senate run in his Chicago home.

For the next eighteen years, the resourceful Putin finessed his way through the occasionally lethal minefield of Russian politics. Obama meanwhile was wafted aloft by his own breezy rhetoric and the overheated passions of his deluded followers, including, unfortunately, most of the mainstream media.

When Putin shot Obama’s balloon down over Syria no one should have been surprised. As America first learned at Benghazi, you can fake your way through college, fake your way through the Senate, even fake your way through the presidency, but you can’t fake your way through a civil war in the Middle East…..”

“….Obama’s useful Liberal idiots as voters? ——— Although they would be the last to admit it, they suffered conspicuously from what George Bush has called “the soft bigotry of low expectations….”

Yep – Putin has Zero use for Islam, Homosexuals, or Prog/Liberals! 😎

http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/09/the_impostor_president_gets_caught_comments.html#disqus_thread
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September 17, 2013 11:21am
Fletch

Harvard study shows that gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate.

The Harvard study attempts to answer the question of whether or not banning firearms would reduce murders and suicides. Researchers looked at crime data from several European countries and found that countries with HIGHER gun ownership often had LOWER murder rates.

Russia, for example, enforces very strict gun control on its people, but its murder rate remains quite high. In fact, the murder rate in Russia is four times higher than in the “gun-ridden” United States, cites the study. ”Homicide results suggest that where guns are scarce other weapons are substituted in killings.” In other words, the elimination of guns does not eliminate murder, and in the case of gun-controlled Russia, murder rates are quite high.

The study revealed several European countries with significant gun ownership, like Norway, Finland, Germany and France – had remarkably low murder rates. Contrast that with Luxembourg, “where handguns are totally banned and ownership of any kind of gun is minimal, had a murder rate nine times higher than Germany in 2002.

The study found no evidence to suggest that the availability of guns contributes to higher murder rates anywhere in the world. ”Of course, it may be speculated that murder rates around the world would be higher if guns were more available. But there is simply no evidence to support this.”

http://www.smallgovtimes.com/article/harvard-study-reveals-gun-control-counterproductive/
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
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September 17, 2013 11:21am
Weihana

Fletch (4,774) Says:
September 17th, 2013 at 11:21 am

Harvard study…

Not particularly important, but it’s not a “Harvard Study”. It’s printed in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy which is a “student-edited law review of conservative and libertarian legal scholarship”.

The study found no evidence to suggest that the availability of guns contributes to higher murder rates anywhere in the world. ”Of course, it may be speculated that murder rates around the world would be higher if guns were more available. But there is simply no evidence to support this.”

Which should be expected. I would agree with their suggestion that gun regulation is generally political rather than criminological. Higher crime motivates more gun regulation. Given that presumption, and assuming as they do that social factors are the primary driving force behind murder and suicide, then a simple comparison of various nations and societies with differing regulations and social factors would not likely show a meaningful correlation unless gun regulation was the primary driving force behind such social statistics. Whether it’s a net benefit (or completely irrelevant) accounting for those social differences remains to be seen. I do not agree with their view that one side of the argument shoulders the entire burden of proof. That to me shows their bias in my view.

The major problem with US crime in my view (and also a problem in NZ) are gangs which are largely financed by the drug war. End the drug war, focus on treatment, and you will go a long way to addressing the social rot caused by the unintended consequences of drug prohibition.
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September 17, 2013 11:53am
jasonh

Re gun control
I am a licensed firearms owner and have a couple of bolt action rifles.
I support arms control in the sense of ‘who the frack needs an high rate of fire weapon with arnour piercibg ammo”
NZ gun laws are pretty good.
We regulate cars, buildings, bridges…ya know common sense stuff
Having regulations on what sort of fire arms circulate is valid.
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September 17, 2013 11:56am
kowtow

A life sentence should be for life.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10312785/Who-lets-murderers-out-of-jail-to-kill-again.html
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September 17, 2013 11:57am
jasonh

Btw I don’t mean ban all more powerful firearms. Just make sure whoever has them is suitable to have them.

A reasonable balance between freedom and public safety.
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September 17, 2013 11:59am
wikiriwhis business

Now this guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCTo2cBoUTU
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September 17, 2013 11:59am
Kea

kowtow, found out the religion of the shooters yet ? You are normally (daily) very quick with that info. I bet you would be if they were Muslim.

It shows how distorted people are by their own bias when they call out for Gun Control. This happened on a Military Base. The same Military that kills tens of thousands all over the globe every year. The same military that has spread death, destruction and misery in a series of ineffective foreign wars. Yet these halfwits think the issue is private citizens having guns. It is not private firearms owners that start wars and are threatening global security. It is the “authorities”. Every single war and large scale human rights abuse has been carried out by the very people the anti gun lobby suggest we should surrender our arms to.

Harriet seems in favour of state sponsored Sharia law. I think he would be happier in Saudi Arabia by the sound of it.
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September 17, 2013 12:12pm
wikiriwhis business

Red should see this vid.

How to fix the Repub Party

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0giVL4j8mQ
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September 17, 2013 12:14pm
liarbors a joke

more vile maori and PI violent offenders…disgusting scum

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9174641/Escalating-violence-in-burglaries
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September 17, 2013 12:15pm
Redbaiter

“How to fix the Repub Party ”

I watched that video Ted. I wished I hadn’t.

Don’t worry, Ted Cruz and the Tea Party are going to fix the Republican party,and after they’ve done that the repercussions are going to filter right down here to NZ and things will be fixed here as well.

Scum like David Brooks and Karl Rove and the idiots of the Bush family will get what they’ve had coming for a long time.

http://www.creators.com/print/conservative/david-limbaugh/david-brooks-lame-trashing-of-sen-cruz.html
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September 17, 2013 12:26pm
Redbaiter

I support arms control in the sense of ‘who the frack needs an high rate of fire weapon with arnour piercibg ammo”

You need to read the American Constitution for it is the second amendment to this document that guarantees the right of US citizens to bear arms.

Its nothing to do with self defence or hunting or protecting your property. Its to do with defending against tyrannical government.

This is why so many Americans spit upon those who wish to control firearms. The gun grabbers do not understand how important it is to Americans to retain their right to defend against tyranny, and right now, its looking as important as it ever has.

Not here in NZ, where like weak submissive little well behaved lemmings, we lamely and voluntarily vote ourselves deeper into socialist tyranny every election.
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September 17, 2013 12:31pm
wikiriwhis business

Awkward: CNBC host speechless after Barney Frank asks about high salaries for ‘poor’ bankers

CNBC host Maria Bartiromo and former Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson were momentarily stunned on Sunday when former Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) asked them why the “poor beleaguered bankers” could afford to pay themselves excessively high salaries but could not find a way to pay their debts without a government bailout.

During an NBC Meet the Press segment to mark the five year anniversary of the 2008 economic collapse, Frank explained that new regulations meant that banks could not become “too big too fail” because they would not receive government help if they were overly indebted.

NBC host David Gregory observed that only 14 percent of Americans had a positive view of Wall Street firms, and that growing income inequality meant that the banks may have come out on top.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/15/awkward-cnbc-host-speechless-after-barney-frank-asks-about-high-salaries-for-poor-bankers/
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September 17, 2013 12:32pm
kowtow

the troll kea with her anti American,anti Christian ,anti women rants sounds like she should follow her own advice to Harriet and move herself to Saudi Arabia.

Another advantage to kea would be she’d be closer to her fantasy home ,Syria.
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September 17, 2013 12:36pm
Kea

Some famous people who advocated gun control: Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Nicolae Ceaușescu …

Remarkably all of them built up the military and police at the same time they took guns from the people.
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September 17, 2013 12:37pm
Kea

kowtow, any points of fact you wish to correct me on ?
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September 17, 2013 12:38pm
Harriet

Weihana #

“…….End the drug war, focus on treatment, and you will go a long way to addressing the social rot caused by the unintended consequences of drug prohibition…..”

😎 When a more complete analysis is conducted, the near-infantile just-do-it solutions typically do not appear as clearly positive as the proponents like Weihana would have us believe. Issues such as these nicely illustrate the intellectual follies of many drug legalization proponents, again, like Weihana. 😎

“….But a government approved legal source of ecstasy may still sell for a higher price than a corresponding black-market version (we won’t know the answer to this hypothetical unless we perform an ecstasy legalization experiment), in which case a black market will continue to exist that may occasionally sell “bad batches” of lethal ecstasy. And who will pay for the regulation of legalized ecstasy? Hopefully just the users — which may be quite a small market. If such is the case, the costs of legalized pure ecstasy could be significantly higher than a riskier black market source, in which case some users may continue to frequent the black market for their ecstasy needs.

So much for your ‘taxing it is best policy’ Wehana 😎

How likely is it that the rate and extent of occurrence of an illegal activity will significantly decline upon legalization? Exceedingly low, as this would imply that many individuals were partaking in the illegal activity because it was illegal, and not because they derived any real benefit from the activities (beyond the apparent satisfaction of knowing they were purposefully engaging in an illegal activity). This scenario also assumes that the deterrence component of the criminal penalties was near zero.

How likely is it that the rate and extent of occurrence of an illegal activity will not significantly change upon legalization? Again, effectively zero. Why? T his scenario is largely premised on the assumption that the deterrence component of the criminal penalties was near zero, which is simply not realistic. Even modest penalties are a deterrence to some individuals who would otherwise engage in the activity.

So we are left with the likely proposition that if it is legalized, the rate and extent of ecstasy use will only increase. 😎

As a first step toward rational policies surrounding mind-altering substances with no nutritional value, we should consider the commission of crimes while under the influence of such mind-altering non-nutritional substances (which includes alcohol, ecstasy, and almost all other so-called “drugs”) to be an aggravating factor, not a potential mitigating factor. In other words, the punishment for criminal activity should be higher for those “acting under the influence” of such substances than for the equivalent criminal actions by those in a purportedly “normal” state of mind. Criminal sanctions of this nature would serve the purposes of promoting greater personal responsibility (since one is generally more likely to engage in criminal activity when “under the influence,” all other aspects being equal) and deterring the excessive use of mind-altering non-nutritional substances (a desirable policy goal in its own right).

Issues such as these nicely illustrate the intellectual follies of many drug legalization proponents. The proponents’ arguments far too often are simplistic, ignore both positive and negative feedbacks from various possible courses of action, and generally fail to consider externalities. When a more complete analysis is conducted, the near-infantile just-do-it solutions typically do not appear as clearly positive as the proponents would have us believe.

Have a cup of tea Weihana and go and have a lay down! 😎
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September 17, 2013 12:42pm
Colville

Kea @ 12.12.
Stuff says the shooter was a Buddhist !

How the frack does a guy who has a conviction for pulling out a pistol and shooting out the tyres of a car (parked on a public street ) have a permit to carry a concealed weapon?

Now that is a fucked up gun law.
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September 17, 2013 12:53pm
Redbaiter

“any points of fact you wish to correct me on”

Your comments have very few facts, and when there is one of two, they’re usually of little consequence. Demanding that people argue with you on facts is like demanding they shoot holes in a column of wood smoke.
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September 17, 2013 12:56pm
Kea

Colville , ok.

How many people have been killed by US Buddhists v US Military ?
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September 17, 2013 12:57pm
cha

It was all about Alex.
/

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/16/alex-jones-globalist-conspiracy-created-navy-yard-patsy-shooter-to-discredit-me/
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September 17, 2013 1:07pm
kowtow

any points of facts you want to correct me on…….

Already done,but kea the troll chooses to ignore the blindingly obvious,because she is a troll with whom there is no merit engaging.

adding to the gallery of “American Christian” terrorists Nidal Hassan and John Allen Muhammed ,we have the Boston bomber brothers.
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September 17, 2013 1:19pm
Kea

“A List Of Children Killed By Drone Strikes In Pakistan and Yemen

While it is ultimately impossible to get exact numbers, this means that for every “terrorist” killed by a drone strike, anywhere between 10 and 50 civilians are killed.”

http://www.policymic.com/articles/24164/a-list-of-children-killed-by-drone-strikes-in-pakistan-and-yemen

Way out of date now though and a tiny number compared to the tens of thousands of civilians killed by the US military. Most who were dirt poor and powerless with no knowledge or control of events. So I consider this tragedy on a US Military base against that background.
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September 17, 2013 1:19pm
Kea

“Already done” Errrr no kowtow. I have never seen you refute any thing I have said with facts. You simply launch into personal attacks and credit views to me I do not have. Often completely off topic.

Red, so nothing from you either. Birds (chickens) of a feather…..
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September 17, 2013 1:22pm
wikiriwhis business

‘Not bulletproof’: Russia says UN chemical attack report does not show who was responsible
Non-Televised Truth

Russia’s UN representative says the newly unveiled report on the chemical attack of August 21 in Syria offers no “bulletproof data or conclusions” on who ordered it. The US and UK say the study confirms the regime was behind the attack.

“The report is diligent but very technical. It avoids categorical judgments and inferences, and it needs to be studied,” Vitaly Churkin told the Russian media at the UN headquarters in New York.

“As people examine it, everyone can draw their own conclusion, but I hope that won’t be driven by political motives.”

US President Barack Obama’s national security adviser, Susan Rice, said in a statement the technical evidence of high-grade sarin revealed in the report “reinforces our assessment that these attacks were carried out by the Syrian regime, as only they had the capability to mount an attack in this manner.”

Earlier, Washington envoy to the UN Samantha Power said the study proved that “only the regime” had the capacity to carry out the attack on a Damascus suburb that the US claims took more than 1,400 lives. UK Foreign Secretary William Hague also said the findings were “fully consistent” with the previous British stance that Bashar Assad’s forces were responsible for the attack.

Churkin said that suggestions the attack was a rebel provocation “cannot be shrugged off”.

The 38-page report was compiled by a UN expert team, which inspected Damascus at the end of last month, and collected over 30 samples from victims and the environment. Its authors state that it found “clear and convincing evidence that surface-to-surface rockets containing the nerve agent sarin” were released on “a relatively large scale” during the August attack. The report doesn’t blame either of the sides.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has labeled the incident a “war crime”.

Churkin also told journalists “not to jump to conclusions” when questioned about whether Cyrillic alphabet markings, which were found on fragments of rockets reportedly used in the attack, proved that they were in possession of government forces. He said that UK and US assertions that rebels do not have the capacity to execute a large scale gas attack were “not grounded in reality”.

Last week, Russia and the United States put forward a proposal that would see Syria hand over its chemical weapons to international observers. Syria has also applied to join the Chemical Weapons Convention – an international treaty that regulates the destruction of such weapons – next month.

Source:
http://rt.com/news/churkin-un-chemical-report-938/
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September 17, 2013 1:54pm
graham

Colville, the article I read stated that “Alexis was into Buddhism and meditation” and “attended the Wat Busayadhammavanaram Meditation Center.”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2422616/Aaron-Alexis-identified-DC-Navy-Yard-shooter.html

A small point perhaps, but being into Buddhism and meditation does not necessarily equate to actually being a Buddhist. There are people who go to church who are not Christian.
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September 17, 2013 2:01pm
Redbaiter

“Red, so nothing from you either.”

Apparently you want to turn the discussion to some kind of paralell between a domestic incident involving a coward shooting a dozen unarmed victims and American soldiers carrying out combat missions around the globe.

Not interested troll.
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September 17, 2013 2:02pm
wikiriwhis business

Three Reasons to Repeal the Year 1913

A short insight into how the corporates turned the US into a tax slave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESTHQO2Kg1A
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September 17, 2013 2:23pm
Weihana

Harriet (2,434) Says:
September 17th, 2013 at 12:42 pm

😎 When a more complete analysis is conducted…

Thank you for making the effort at a counter argument. 🙂

Though, I note you have not referenced this supposed “complete analysis”. I will assume therefore that any argument is your own.

“….But a government approved legal source of ecstasy may still sell for a higher price than a corresponding black-market version (we won’t know the answer to this hypothetical unless we perform an ecstasy legalization experiment), in which case a black market will continue to exist that may occasionally sell “bad batches” of lethal ecstasy. And who will pay for the regulation of legalized ecstasy? Hopefully just the users — which may be quite a small market. If such is the case, the costs of legalized pure ecstasy could be significantly higher than a riskier black market source, in which case some users may continue to frequent the black market for their ecstasy needs.

There seems little basis for concluding that a significant black market would exist alongside a regulated legal market.

First, alcohol is highly regulated but still relatively cheap. There is a black market in alcohol but it is insignificant.

Second, we have had somewhat of an “ecstasy legalization experiment” in the form of party pills. The pills were inexpensive compared to some illegal alternatives. However, price of MDMA may vary depending on location and in some overseas markets they can be relatively inexpensive as well, presumably owing to an economy of scale. In either case, the legal option would have to be prohibitively expensive to overcome consumer preference for legality and quality assurance. This is unlikely for a drug that has a relatively low rate of dependence and would require a very high price to push people to obtain it illegally if it were available legally.

Third, risks for ecstacy overdose are largely exaggerated (refer study below) when put in perspective of the risks from other drugs. Certainly the illegality of the drug increases the risk of the drug (or whatever is given in its place) as quality is unregulated. But I’m not sure how that could get any worse and there is little reason to believe that a significant black market would survive alongside a regulated legal one.

“A broad range of relatively low-quality literature suggests that recreational use of ecstasy is associated with significant deficits in neurocognitive function (particularly immediate and delayed verbal memory) and increased psychopathological symptoms. The clinical significance of the exposure effect in individual cases will be variable but, on average, deficits are likely to be relatively small. Ecstasy is associated with a range of acute harms but appears to be a rare cause of death in isolation”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19195429?dopt=Abstract

How likely is it that the rate and extent of occurrence of an illegal activity will significantly decline upon legalization? Exceedingly low, as this would imply that many individuals were partaking in the illegal activity because it was illegal, and not because they derived any real benefit from the activities (beyond the apparent satisfaction of knowing they were purposefully engaging in an illegal activity). This scenario also assumes that the deterrence component of the criminal penalties was near zero.

How likely is it that the rate and extent of occurrence of an illegal activity will not significantly change upon legalization? Again, effectively zero. Why? T his scenario is largely premised on the assumption that the deterrence component of the criminal penalties was near zero, which is simply not realistic. Even modest penalties are a deterrence to some individuals who would otherwise engage in the activity.

So we are left with the likely proposition that if it is legalized, the rate and extent of ecstasy use will only increase. 😎

Your assumptions are overly simplistic and not really supported by empirical evidence which suggests usage may go up and down.

In the Portuguese case, the statistical indicators and key informant interviews that we have reviewed suggest that since decriminalization in July 2001, the following changes have occurred

* small increases in reported illicit drug use amongst adults;
* reduced illicit drug use among problematic drug users and adolescents, at least since 2003

http://www.beckleyfoundation.org/bib/doc/bf/2010_Caitlin_211621_1.pdf

Moreover, one could cite increasing usage rates under prohibition as if that proved that prohibition caused increased usage. But such simplistic analysis are not sufficient to represent the complexities that underly human decisions. I would accept that criminal penalties tend to create a deterrant effect which may vary depending on the severity of the penalties. But this is only one factor that cannot by itself account for external social trends, nor for the unintended consequences brought about by the black market. I would also note that usage is most likely to be affected amongst those who are not addicts for addicts are less likely to be dissuaded by potential penalties. This seems to be reflected in the Portuguese case where there has been an apparent small increase in overall usage, but a decline in problem and adolescent users.

The proponents’ arguments far too often are simplistic, ignore both positive and negative feedbacks from various possible courses of action, and generally fail to consider externalities

No I think your analysis is the more simplistic, but also ignores contradictory empirical evidence.
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September 17, 2013 2:29pm
Kea

Red, No I am interested in the gutless cowards killing civilian peasants by remote control with Obama’s Drones.
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September 17, 2013 2:29pm
Colville

From Ben Uffindell, funny and true.

Of course, I’m not saying he’s no better than Shearer. It’s just that Labour had bigger problems than Shearer. Namely Key.
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September 17, 2013 2:36pm
Fletch

If anyone is interested, Sharknado is on Prime TV tonight.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/07/sharknado.html
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September 17, 2013 2:50pm
Harriet

“…..There seems little basis for concluding that a significant black market would exist alongside a regulated legal market.

First, alcohol is highly regulated but still relatively cheap. There is a black market in alcohol but it is insignificant…..”

That only further supports the arguement against legalising drugs Weihana!

Drugs are used by a smaller proportion of the poulation, leading to the costs of drugs then being much more expensive in the market place under government and industry control than alcohol currently is.

A black market in drugs will then remain as a cheaper alternative.

I’m not even going to bother to read the rest of your weak as weasle piss analysis. 😎
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September 17, 2013 3:00pm
Fletch

Nigerian grad student reckons he has used science (mathematics, physics, chemistry and biology) to prove that gay marriage is wrong.

http://io9.com/nigerian-grad-student-uses-magnets-to-prove-gay-marri-1326215449

Not so sure he has definitively proved it, but he does raise some points about what being “equal” means.
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September 17, 2013 3:08pm
Weihana

Harriet (2,440) Says:
September 17th, 2013 at 3:00 pm

Drugs are used by a smaller proportion of the poulation, leading to the costs of drugs then being much more expensive in the market place under government and industry control than alcohol currently is.

A black market in drugs will then remain as a cheaper alternative.

You have provided scant justification and no evidence to support this assertion. Illicit drugs do have less users as compared to alcohol, I agree. But this restriction on the scale of the economy would affect the black market as well.

I would agree that there may be some regulatory cost to a legal market but there is no evidence nor justification to believe that this is comparable to inflated prices as a result of the risk of prosecution. Indeed, considering alcohol regulation, these costs are often proportional to sales. Every store must be licensed. Every store requires a licensed manager. Having ten stores does not amount to lowering regulatory overhead in that regard.

Moreover, even if we were to assume that the cost of regulation would be greater than the inflated price of illegal drugs, there is no reason to believe that the price of a legal drug would be so extreme as to outweigh the preference of legality and quality.

Furthermore, the United States demonstrates quite clearly that under a semi-legal arrangement, Cannabis users will generally prefer their “medical” marijuana over dealing with a random gang member and there does not appear to be any huge regulatory overhead in that system that makes the prices very high and thus unworkable.

I’m not even going to bother to read the rest of your weak as weasle piss analysis.

That is your choice, but I’m pretty sure you did in fact read it. 😉
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September 17, 2013 3:18pm
Weihana

Harriet (2,440) Says:
September 17th, 2013 at 3:00 pm

I would further add that I am not proposing across the board legalization. Different drugs have different rates of dependence, usage, externalities etc. that affect any cost/benefit analysis of legalization. I would propose across the board decriminalization, but certain drugs should probably not be available for retail purchase and even if they are the regulations applying to any drug should be specifically designed to minimize the harm associated with that drug.
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September 17, 2013 3:21pm
Weihana

Harriet (2,441) Says:
September 17th, 2013 at 12:42 pm

So much for your ‘taxing it is best policy’ Wehana

I note that an arbitrary added on tax may be the basis of your argument… in that case note also my position is not based on acquiring tax from drug sales. My position is based on the severe costs the drug war imposes on society. Taxation is a side issue and in any case can be arbitrarily lowered or raised which renders your argument moot.
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September 17, 2013 3:31pm
Left Right and Centre

Negotiations have been protracted because Kaino is contemplating the major financial sacrifice he needs to make to reclaim his All Blacks jersey, though a conclusion is expected this week.

What’s to think about it? The jersey is worth a lot more than the dollar, is it not? 😉
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September 17, 2013 4:01pm
Left Right and Centre

The big news in America: multiple fatalities in latest shooting spree.

The big news In NZ: now you can only catch seven fish, down from nine.

No-brainer.
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September 17, 2013 4:06pm
Left Right and Centre

Ma’a Nonu: No brains, no arms. Makes sense.
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September 17, 2013 4:12pm
leftyliberal

@Fletch: That’s hilarious. Particularly with your deadpan presentation of it.
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September 17, 2013 4:16pm
David Garrett

Has the harpy Dalziell resigned, or is that post by Conservative a wind up?
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September 17, 2013 5:14pm
Elaycee

@David Garrett: She sent her resignation to the Speaker today – with effect 11 October.

I feel for the good folk of Christchurch – poor buggers. 😯
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September 17, 2013 5:25pm
Lucia Maria

Pope Francis says to pray for political leaders:

Every morning, Pope Francis celebrates mass in the chapel of the Domus Sanctae Marthae. The service is small and intimate—usually fifty or so people attend—and the Holy Father preaches spontaneously in Italian to set the tone for the day. Today he had a political message on his mind: meddle in politics.

Meddling, according to Pope Francis, may look different than many people initially think. “A good Catholic meddles in politics, offering the best of himself, so that those who govern can govern. But what is the best that we can offer to those who govern? Prayer!” he preached. “That’s what Paul says: ‘Pray for all people, and for the king and for all in authority.’”

Prayers can be simple, the Pope explained. Pray that the leader, man or woman, can govern well, love their people, serve their people, and remain humble. Pray even if the leader is wicked or has problems—then one’s prayer can be that the leader would change his ways. “A Christian who does not pray for those who govern is not a good Christian,” he said.

Political prayer is necessary because people participate in their leaders decisions, whether they acknowledge it or not. “None of us can say, ‘I have nothing to do with this, they govern.’ No, no, I am responsible for their governance, and I have to do the best so that they govern well, and I have to do my best by participating in politics according to my ability,” he said. “Politics, according to the Social Doctrine of the Church, is one of the highest forms of charity, because it serves the common good. I cannot wash my hands, eh? We all have to give something!”

The Pope’s message extended to those in positions of political power. He argued that are two virtues a true leader needs to govern: love for the people and humility. “And every man, every woman who has to take up the service of government, must ask themselves two questions: ‘Do I love my people in order to serve them better? Am I humble and do I listen to everybody, to diverse opinions in order to choose the best path?’” he asked. “If you don’t ask those questions, your governance will not be good.”

link: Pope Francis says to pray for political leaders

I just remember last year when the whole Church prayed for political leaders to make good decisions for their countries. A few days before that month started, NZ passed the gay marriage law. During the month of that particular prayer request from the pope (Benedict XVI at the time), Australia rejected gay marriage. If only NZ had delayed the gay marriage vote by a week!
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September 17, 2013 6:14pm
Viking2

“This one actually happened at Harvard University in October of this year in a biology class; the professor was discussing the high glucose levels found in semen. A young female (freshman) raised her hand and asked, ‘If I understand, you’re saying there is a lot of glucose in male semen as in sugar?’ ‘That’s correct,’ responded the professor, going on to add statistical information. Raising her hand again, the girl asked, ‘Then why doesn’t it taste sweet?’
After a stunned silence, the whole class burst out laughing, the poor girl’s face turned bright red, and as she realized exactly what she had inadvertently said (or rather implied), she picked up her books with out a word and walked out of class…and never returned.
However, as she was going out the door, the Professor’s reply was classic… Totally straight-faced he answered her question, ‘It doesn’t taste sweet because the taste-buds for sweetness are on the tip of your tongue and not the back of your throat.”
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September 17, 2013 6:19pm
Lucia Maria

A Biblical era town, quite possibly the one that Jesus sailed to after miraculously feeding 4,000 people, has been discovered in Israel:

A town dating back more than 2,000 years has been discovered on the northwest coast of the Sea of Galilee, in Israel’s Ginosar valley.

The ancient town may be Dalmanutha (also spelled Dalmanoutha), described in the Gospel of Mark as the place Jesus sailed to after miraculously feeding 4,000 people by multiplying a few fish and loaves of bread, said Ken Dark, of the University of Reading in the U.K., whose team discovered the town during a field survey.

The archaeologists also determined that a famous boat, dating to around 2,000 years ago, and uncovered in 1986, was found on the shoreline of the newly discovered town. The boat was reported on two decades ago but the discovery of the town provides new information on what lay close to it.

link: Biblical-Era Town Discovered Along Sea of Galilee
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September 17, 2013 6:31pm
liarbors a joke

Billy Connolly diagnosed with early stages of Parkinsons disease..sad news..poor bastard. One of Billys finest…

“”53 fucking virgins! The very thought of 53 fucking virgins, it’s a nightmare! It’s not a fucking present, it’s not a prize- it’s a punishment! Give me 2 fire-breathing whores any day of the week. I’m a slut man!”
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September 17, 2013 6:34pm

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