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August 30, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 30 August 2013

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General Debate

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Nostalgia-NZ

I like your desperation Jack. The Juror was entitled to be on the Jury. As for the venerable MVB he was warned to stop harassing the Jury members after the trial something which few if any lawyers would do. I do remember something called ‘polling the Jury’ a legitimate process that may not have been embraced by the NZ system.
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August 30, 2013 8:41pm
Reid

Interesting update on Hastings. Anyone who hasn’t been following it, should. It stinks, and always has. It absolutely reeks.

http://www.wnd.com/2013/08/mystery-grows-in-journalists-death-prepping-obama-expose/

Governor of Fukushima prefect expresses no confidence in TEPCO (who’da thunk). Perhaps he missed the thread here the other day when DPF and others assured themselves everything was A-OK cos the MSM says so and they always tell the truth, don’t they. I mean what does he know, he’s only the governor.

http://enenews.com/fukushima-plant-a-national-emergency-says-governor-severe-radioactive-contamination-with-serious-health-affects-on-local-population-global-intervention-needed
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August 30, 2013 8:43pm
Judith

@ jack

MVB the cops little bro? The same MVB that spouted on for years on how guilty Peter Ellis was, encouraging everyone of his readers to hate Peter as much as he did?

He can write all the books he likes, it still won’t be any more than his opinion, one that is based on subjectivity not facts.

I have seen many things MVB has written, including his opinion that DB suffered from psychopathy. Now you tell me how any lawyer would be able to diagnose that from a distance, when this countries best forensic psychiatrists found no evidence of it in DB despite intensive investigation?

We all saw MVB’s behaviour at the Perth conference – behaviour that had the rest of the media pack give him the cold shoulder they were so disgusted with him. There was not one objective component involved in his behaviour.

There is nothing MVB can offer in any book that will add anything more than his overt obsessive dislike for Joe Karam and David Bain, which is based on the fact he has been proved wrong, so many times. If his book is anything like his recent TV appearance I doubt it will make the best seller list, unless people buy it for a good laugh.
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August 30, 2013 8:46pm
Jack5

Judith at 8.46:

As a long-time reader of the Christchurch Press I don’t think Martin van Beynen ever wrote saying that in his opinion Ellis was guilty. Van Beynen certainly hasn’t been a campaigner against Ellis, and I suggest it is misinformed rubbish to say van Beynen hates Ellis.

Far from being given “the cold shoulder by the rest of the media pack”, van Beynen is well respected by fellow journalists.

As for Nostalgia-NZ at 8.41 –

As for the venerable MVB he was warned to stop harassing the Jury members after the trial something which few if any lawyers would do

Are you alleging, Nostalgia-NZ that van Beynen is NOT as qualified lawyer. Better step carefully. I suspect it was van Beynen who brought to light the post-trial partying with the Bain camp of some jury members, and the background of the jury member who had the name change.

Van Beynen’s coverage of the Bain Christchurch trial IMHO was excellent. If he writes a book about the Bain massacre that will become the defining history of the tragedy.
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August 30, 2013 8:56pm
F E Smith

Like FE Smith, van Beynen is a lawyer (turned journo), and would make interesting reading for FE Smith.

Could you try to be a bit more condescending with that, Jack5?

Anyway, I read the van Beynen article the day it was published. It didn’t move me to change my opinion from “I really don’t care”. Indeed, I have just re-read it and I don’t think it actually adds anything to the argument that might be characterised as being either impartial or influenced by the author having a law degree.

And just because van Beynen has a law degree does not mean he is any authority on the process. There is a lot about criminal procedure that isn’t taught at law school. In fact, most of it isn’t taught at law school!!

As far as I am concerned the person who killed the Bain family could be David, it could be Robin, or perhaps it might be a third person. I really don’t know, so I have no issue with the retrial verdict, nor do I have any issue with anyone who thinks that David Bain is in fact guilty.

I am able to comment on procedure because of my training and experience. I don’t pretend to know the unknowable.

EDIT: Jack5, is van Beynen a qualified lawyer or does he merely have a law degree? As you know, there is a difference.
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August 30, 2013 8:56pm
Judith

@ FES

I don’t know sorry. I suspect probably the latter, but gave jack the benefit of doubt.

Thank you for your kind regards re the foot.

@ Jack

As a long time ready of the ODT you clearly weren’t reading the day that MVB finally published his apology to Peter Ellis for his previous articles.

MVB was given the cold shoulder at the Innocence Conference in Perth last year by other journalists who went so far as to apologise for their colleagues bad performance. There was a general disgust at his behaviour by the media and the conference organisers. I am sure it is not something MVB wrote about in the ODT. It was certainly not one of his finer moments.
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August 30, 2013 9:05pm
Jack5

Re FE SMith at 8.56.

I didn’t mean to be posting in a condescending tone towards you, FES, and if it appears that way, I apologise. I wasn’t aware you had read van Beynen.

My understanding is that van Beynen was a practising lawyer, and made a career change. I don’t see anyone else in the country on a par with him as an analytical reporter in matters of crime and fraud. He’s been first out with many good stories, one of the more recent one being the engineer in the CTV building construction who had in fact adopted another man’s persona.
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August 30, 2013 9:05pm
Reid

And check this dispersion model. What are the Asians going to do when they can’t get any fish? That’s a minor problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j7UQXfN-J4E
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August 30, 2013 9:11pm
Longknives

“There should have been a third trial after it emerged one of the jury members got into the jury unchallenged, the person’s record undetected after a name change.”

That same person was one of the weeping,hugging Jurors invited to come party with their beloved David at the Bain ‘After-Party’…
Makes you wonder really doesn’t it??
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August 30, 2013 9:15pm
Jack5

Judith at 9.05 is mistaken that I was a long-term reader of the ODT (Otago Daily Times, I think). I am a long-term reader of the Christchurch Press.

Van Beynen has been at the Press for 15 years or so. I wasn’t aware he was with another newspaper before that. If he did in fact think Ellis was guilty early on, that wasn’t to my knowledge. If so he certainly wasn’t alone in misjudging the Ellis case at that stage. Such was the shock of reading about alleged interference with kids in a ratepayer-funded creche that anger dulled judgment. The then attitude to homosexuality (I think Ellis is or was gay), and the similarity of similar hysteria cases in other parts of the English speaking world fanned the hysteria.

It was the book by Lynley Hood that brought to the public at large to its senses on the Ellis case, highlighting similarities with similar miscarriages of justice in America and elsewhere, the nuttiness of some of the Ellis case complainants, and the outrageous nature of some of the accusations.

If Judith is accurate in her description of van Beynen’s early reporting of the Ellis case, that does not at all affect or detract from his excellent investigative articles in his years writing in the Press and his measured analysis of the David Bain trial in Christchurch.
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August 30, 2013 9:16pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Jack your quite nice when you’re angry.

‘Are you alleging, Nostalgia-NZ that van Beynen is NOT as qualified lawyer. Better step carefully’

Be assured I’m a careful stepper. But I agree that it’s a pity that vb has been unable to bring the benefit of once being a lawyer to his readers. I did like his reply on 3 Degrees, or was it an impersonation of a possum – in headlights.
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August 30, 2013 9:23pm
SPC

There goes the Ross Sea sanctuary. The Asians will be coming south for their fish.
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August 30, 2013 9:23pm
Judith

@ Jack

You are right, he is with ChCh Press, but also features in the ODT – the same ‘stories’ are often repeated in both.

He used his same sort of ‘ excellent investigative and measured’ articles against Ellis – for a long time – and it was only when the tide of public opinion turned against what he was writing, that he gave in and wrote an apology.

I think we can cope with his ‘excellence’ and his ‘lawyerness’ – people that make up their mind on this case from what they read in the media deserve the opinion they form.
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August 30, 2013 9:26pm
Rowan

“Van Beynen’s coverage of the Bain Christchurch trial IMHO was excellent. If he writes a book about the Bain massacre that will become the defining history of the tragedy.”

Thanks for the laugh, MVBs reporting of the Bain case is a JOKE!, I liked his interview on third degree, err err, um um, ‘the police might be able to come up with something to explain it’ own goal all right.

Jack do you really put your firearm knowledge over that of the gun experts interviewed for the program, Robbie Tiffen and Richard Munt? Who to believe them or you?
How really does Dr Dempsters view support the police theory put forward by Burgess?
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August 30, 2013 9:38pm
F E Smith

Jack5,

cheers. I have no axe to grind on this because, as I say, I have no opinion on David Bain’s guilt or innocence.

Van Beynan may be a good journalist, but I don’t find his article on the Bain case very convincing. Of course, as a Bain agnostic perhaps I am tougher to convince one way or the other than most.
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August 30, 2013 9:48pm
Jack5

Re Rowan at 9.38:

The David Bain-Karam mob’s experts need to prove marks seen in photographs of Robin Bain’s thumb and magazine were from a magazine, not just that they just might be consistent with this. Then it has to be established that the marks couldn’t have come from anything else Robin Bain was doing in the days before he died.

Photographer Peter Durrant was hailed as a forensic scientist by David Bain supporters early in the latest drive I think. He may have taken photographs for forensic clients, but is he a forensic scientist?

Richard Munt is an accomplished shooter and gunshop owner, and Robbie Tiffen is a gunshop owner, a Territorial Army armourer, a rifle shooting competitor, and, I think, may have a law degree.

I respectfully suggest that their expertise in their fields does not anywhere near match van Beynen’s expertise in his field.

Their views surely need to be tested by examination, and compared or contrasted with views from the many similar people the police could choose from.

Given some of the bullshit that was put about early in the Bain case about members of the Bain family, all “new evidence” surely needs to be thoroughly tested.
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August 30, 2013 10:01pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Jolly good strategic retreat Jack. You have an obvious talent for being light of foot when the situation requires. Good work, spot on and all that.
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August 30, 2013 10:06pm
Jack5

No retreat about it, Nostalgia.
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August 30, 2013 10:17pm
Rowan

Jack
There is just not that level of proof available in this case, in any aspect. The marks are clearly not ‘cuts or scratches’ as shown by the original fingerprints. If you look at the Burgess interview he clearly says ‘if the marks were powder abrasions then we would expect to be able to see a complete print’ and then shows the second set of prints which had the blotchy marks present on them. The original prints released by Karam confirmed this long before Dempsters statement. Yes you are right ‘consistent with’ doesn’t mean actually but in the absence of other explanations it becomes ‘what is the most likely?’ given the situation. Robin is within a metre of a loaded gun and cm of the magazine. I saw a ridiculous letter to the editor in press claiming that ‘3rd degree only proved that he’d handled the magazine that morning, but wasn’t the shooter’ really I don’t think to many would disagree that the killer certainly handled the magazine that morning.
Similarly what’s the most likely explanation for the red ‘blood like’ substance under Robins fingernails. Yes it wasn’t tested to confirm that it is blood, is completely unexplainable if it is as an ‘innocent victim’ and no other explanation for it at all.
Robins final scene to me is quite easily explained as a suicide and not at all explained as ‘murder’ Even the crown couldn’t explain it at all so avoided it completely at the retrial. Unless Robin was a willing participant in his death then the scene is totally unexplained.
I just don’t find any of the crown case very convincing at all, a lot of ‘theories’ but nothing adequately proven that can distinguish between David being the ‘perpetrator’ or the ‘finder’
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August 30, 2013 10:20pm
Nostalgia-NZ

‘Jack5 (3,260) Says:
August 30th, 2013 at 10:17 pm
No retreat about it, Nostalgia’

Of course Jack, it’s an interesting debate.
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August 30, 2013 10:34pm
Longknives

Please- No more!

How about an AC/DC cover to take your minds off Karam’s brainwashing…

http://thechive.com/2013/08/29/my-new-favorite-artist-does-an-excellent-cover-of-highway-to-hell-or-so-im-told-video/
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August 30, 2013 11:01pm
cha

http://youtu.be/EUXk2ZrgcQM
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August 30, 2013 11:24pm
bereal

Does the sage jurist F E Smith have an opinion on the Peter Ellis case ?

i would be suprised that even if he did it would be anything except, “I don’t know.’
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August 31, 2013 12:23am
goldnkiwi

F E Smith (2,829) Says:
August 30th, 2013 at 8:56 pm

Like FE Smith, van Beynen is a lawyer (turned journo), and would make interesting reading for FE Smith.

Could you try to be a bit more condescending with that, Jack5?

Anyway, I read the van Beynen article the day it was published. It didn’t move me to change my opinion from “I really don’t care”. Indeed, I have just re-read it and I don’t think it actually adds anything to the argument that might be characterised as being either impartial or influenced by the author having a law degree.

And just because van Beynen has a law degree does not mean he is any authority on the process. There is a lot about criminal procedure that isn’t taught at law school. In fact, most of it isn’t taught at law school!!

As far as I am concerned the person who killed the Bain family could be David, it could be Robin, or perhaps it might be a third person. I really don’t know, so I have no issue with the retrial verdict, nor do I have any issue with anyone who thinks that David Bain is in fact guilty.

I am able to comment on procedure because of my training and experience. I don’t pretend to know the unknowable.

EDIT: Jack5, is van Beynen a qualified lawyer or does he merely have a law degree? As you know, there is a difference.

What? The difference being profs and being admitted to the bar? Not being able to call yourself a ‘lawyer’ unless in practice? Do tell I need to know lol.
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August 31, 2013 8:19pm
F E Smith

Heck, I check back to see if anyone added to last night and here is beryl spewing more idiocy!

Does the sage jurist F E Smith have an opinion on the Peter Ellis case ?

i would be suprised that even if he did it would be anything except, “I don’t know.’

If you cared to look, I have said before on this very blog that I think that Ellis is innocent.

goldnkiwi,

What? The difference being profs and being admitted to the bar? Not being able to call yourself a ‘lawyer’ unless in practice? Do tell I need to know lol.

That is one of the things. Having experience in the area you are commenting on also helps. You don’t catch me expressing opinions on commercial law, for example.

Only about 50% of law graduates ever practise, so it is incorrect to say that a person with a law degree is in fact a lawyer.
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August 31, 2013 8:40pm
goldnkiwi

The only extra learning though above a Law Degree, other than profs and that is mainly clerical, is experience. A Law Grad with a practicing certificate is still entitled to call themselves a Lawyer with no actual experience including life. I am sure that is what I said, I thought I had got on the wrong bus for a moment.
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August 31, 2013 8:48pm

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