General Debate 2 August 2013

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Kea

thedavincimode, The Chinese invented a hell of a lot more than that. They had science and technology when your ancestors were dressed in rotting animal skins 😉
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August 2, 2013 5:54pm
bereal

Tom Jackson @ 4.47

Some good points, some muslims have contributed to our civilisation, no doubt.

However, that is not the issue at hand.

Read ‘islam 101’ linked to @ 2.58 above and understand that their fundamental
belief is that there is no place on earth for you unless you submit to islam.

That is the fundamental difference between islam and all other religions.

That is why in the end it is a fight to the death.
You will submit to islam or they will kill you.

That is what muslims believe.
Do you understand that ?

Do you want to argue that there is some other construct that you can put
on the principles of islam ?

This is just one of the reasons why we need muslims in NZ like we need a hole in the head.
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August 2, 2013 5:57pm
thedavincimode

Kea

Speak for your own ancestors. I’m quite sure that my ancestors always dressed for the occasion and that if they ever wore rotting animal skins, it was only for the purposes of bringing home a wildebeest for dinner.
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August 2, 2013 6:01pm
Kea

My ancestors were advanced in a similar way, but I did not wish to boast 🙂
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August 2, 2013 6:05pm
Reid

You will submit to islam or they will kill you. That is what muslims believe. Do you understand that ?

And you “know” this how, bereal?

By reading an article that sounds like Kea wrote it except talking about Islam and not Christianity?

By their actions ye shall know them.

And fact is, there are around a billion muslims and yet only a tiny, tiny fraction of them act out the beliefs that article pretends they all believe.

It’s very dangerous hallucinating you understand a religion by reading their book and extracting the “best” bits. This is because the religion isn’t contained in the words, it’s contained in the actions of the people who follow it. And like I said, most of Islam does not behave like a bunch of tewwowist thugs. Despite the western MSM’s disgusting attempts to make the useful idiots who comprise their readership think that. Iran for example, has not invaded anyone for around 1,000 years. They are regarded in Islam as the purist Islamic nation. Don’t you think that if your thesis was true, that that historical FACT would be the case, if you are correct in your analysis? Don’t you think for example that Iran’s history would be littered with conquest after conquest after conquest if you are correct? After all, according to you, they think just like the hideous Mongols did under Genghis Khan. So why wouldn’t they have behaved like they did, over the centuries? But they haven’t, have they. Go figure.
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August 2, 2013 6:12pm
nasska

Kea

Your ancestors would have advanced further up the chain had they not spent most of their days under bridges waiting for attractive livestock. Dressing your women in sacks, praying five times a day & lusting over camels has reduced the ME to what it is we see today.

It is very sad. 🙂
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August 2, 2013 6:19pm
Kea

It’s very dangerous hallucinating you understand a religion by reading their book and extracting the “best” bits.

Reid, which is exactly what you do with the bible. You have no credibility and no shame. You are no better and no worse than a follower of any other religion. You are all ignorant and dangerous people who have done (and are doing) incredible harm.
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August 2, 2013 6:23pm
Kea

nasska, yeah it is pretty fucked up now days ! Too much religion and no science. I was out on the town in Croatia with an Israeli guy. He reckoned the main problem is the Muslims don’t drink. A week later I was on the piss with a Muslim and told him that story, he laughed and agreed as he drank his beer 🙂

There is probably a lesson hidden in there somewhere.
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August 2, 2013 6:28pm
nasska

Reid

While it is fair to point out that Iran hasn’t actually attacked anyone for centuries with a population of about 75 million it only represents a fraction of the numbers who embrace Islam.

The Balkans, for example, are a piss poor example of the peaceful ways of the followers of the Prophet.
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August 2, 2013 6:28pm
Colville

iMP. the church was demolished because the parishioners had deep pockets and short arms me thinks.
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August 2, 2013 6:34pm
Kea

The Balkans, for example, are a piss poor example of the peaceful ways of the followers of the Prophet.

He does mean Jesus ?
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August 2, 2013 6:36pm
Lucia Maria

The only countries in the world who have apostasy laws are those with an Islamic majority. A significant number of those with apostasy laws punish the apostate with death. While not exactly supporting Bereal’s point, the apostasy laws of these Islamic countries do show how alien the Islamic religion is.

Reid, Iran may not have attacked anyone recently, but they do punish their apostates with death. No freedom of conscience there. You get enough people that think that way immigrating to other nations and there will be (and is) trouble.
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August 2, 2013 6:39pm
nasska

There’s not much to separate the followers of God or Allah in the Balkans Kea. They’ve been at each others throats for centuries already & it won’t stop any time soon.
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August 2, 2013 6:39pm
Kea

nasska, true. None have covered themselves in glory. The Catholics did love the Nazis very much indeed though.

Lucy, dear, read the ten commandments. Your god demands no other god before him. Same as the Muzzies, probably because it is the exact same god. Or do you think you should sit back and let people burn in hell for eternity ?
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August 2, 2013 6:45pm
Redbaiter

Oh fuck, same old same old. Obsessive atheists making GD a derelict wasteland.
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August 2, 2013 6:47pm
Manolo

All religion is foolish myth.
Be true to yourself, live your life according to ethical principles and you will need no fairies to prop you up.
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August 2, 2013 6:49pm
nasska

A pleasant thought. 🙂

Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/bd232ucinsexyzw/KateMILF.jpg
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August 2, 2013 6:49pm
Pete George

The custard has just curdled.

Emails given to inquiry

Parliamentary Service gave a ministerial inquiry emails between UnitedFuture leader Peter Dunne and Fairfax journalist Andrea Vance, it has emerged.

The revelation follows the resignation yesterday of Parliamentary Service head Geoff Thorn amid fallout from the Henry inquiry.

In documents set to be released this afternoon, it will be revealed that Parliamentary Service recalled the emails that it sent to inquiry head David Henry, who had been tasked with finding out who leaked a confidential report on the Government Communications Security Bureau to Vance.

The Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet (DPMC) will issue a statement this afternoon saying the emails were never read and the attachments were destroyed.

It has emerged that the inquiry was also provided with Vance’s phone records and swipe-card records in an attempt to zero in on her confidential source.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8996411/Emails-given-to-inquiry

Links to all the documents here: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1308/S00039/dpmc-releases-email-correspondence-relating-to-henry-inquiry.htm
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August 2, 2013 6:49pm
Lucia Maria

Kea,

If we kill people who don’t believe, they will burn in hell for eternity and so will we. It makes no sense to do so.

Your attempt to draw moral equivalence has failed due to logic errors.
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August 2, 2013 6:50pm
Manolo

More multiculturalism Aussie-style: http://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/latest/a/-/article/18269004/refugee-groped-blind-woman-on-train/
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August 2, 2013 6:51pm
Manolo

P.G., would you have a life after the GCSB issue has died down or would you choose continue licking Dunne’s arse?
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August 2, 2013 6:52pm
Reid

Reid, Iran may not have attacked anyone recently, but they do punish their apostates with death.

And yet Jews and Christians live there quite peacefully Lucia. Amongst all those seething Muslims just waiting to catch an apostate.

nasska, I don’t know much about the root causes of the Balkans since I’ve never researched it. Of course I know what went on there from the MSM as it was happening, but why do you blame it on Islam? What are your reasons? And please don’t give me a 60 minutes report, WTF would they know? It’s just I would have thought Croat and Serb ethnicity is a more likely root cause, especially when you consider the actions of the Ustase and what they did to the Serbs during WWII. It was the most implacable genocide of the whole war. And that’s saying something, isn’t it.

The custard has just curdled.

You mean the philanderer is hysterically lying about how offended he is when nothing happened and the attachment wasn’t even opened Pete? Oh dear. Crime of the century.
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August 2, 2013 6:53pm
Kea

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

——————————————————————————————————————
It is pretty clear that Lucy’s God is a narcissistic jealous nutcase.
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August 2, 2013 6:53pm
Lucia Maria

The Catholics did love the Nazis very much indeed though.

Wow. As a Catholic and a Pole whose parents were directly affected by the invasion of the Nazis during WWII, I can assure you this is not the case. Or are you saying that Catholic Poland just loved being invaded by Nazis?
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August 2, 2013 6:56pm
Pete George

Manolo, talking of arses, there’s about to be a lot of kicking of them soon.

This risks exploding into the issue of the term – and no guarantees it will be a full term by the way things are going.

National are going to come seriously unstuck over this if the don’t do something drastic, and quickly. And sending Stephen Joyce out to do some petty political attacks is about the opposite of what is necessary.
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August 2, 2013 6:59pm
Lucia Maria

Reid,

And yet Jews and Christians live there quite peacefully Lucia. Amongst all those seething Muslims just waiting to catch an apostate.

Except, they are not allowed to share their faith. For Christians, the imperative to do so is fundamental, yet in countries like Iran is is physically dangerous for them to do so. I don’t call that living there peacefully.
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August 2, 2013 7:01pm
nasska

Reid

Ethnicity as much as religion will be behind the atrocities in Serbia/Croatia. The entire area through to Austria was subject to the Ottoman invasions of the 14/15th centuries & wasn’t actually stopped until a scrap in Vienna.

The disputes will be territorial as much as anything but the split is still along Muslim/Christian lines.
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August 2, 2013 7:02pm
Kea

Lucia Maria , yeah it was the case I’m afraid. To a shocking degree.
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August 2, 2013 7:03pm
Lucia Maria

It is pretty clear that Lucy’s God is a narcissistic jealous nutcase.

And yet, those of us who follow this God do not want to kill people who apostatise. Freedom of conscience is paramount, but not for Islam.
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August 2, 2013 7:04pm
Kea

Lucy, yes but you are ignoring gods word with your tolerance. Muslim fundamentalists at least have credibility.
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August 2, 2013 7:09pm
Lucia Maria

Lucia Maria , yeah it was the case I’m afraid. To a shocking degree.

Sorry, that is just crap, Kea. Poland had the highest per capita death rate in WWII, and you’re saying they just loved this???

The Nazis completely destroyed Warsaw in 1944 before the Soviets got there (they spent three months doing it after a three month battle with the underground army) and they did this because they were best buds with Polish Catholics???

Are you really that much of an idiot?
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August 2, 2013 7:11pm
Kea

nasska, One thing worth noting is that many people identify only culturally with their religion. They often do not believe in the religious texts and often not in God. I have met a few Jews like that. They are 100 % Jewish and 100% atheist.
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August 2, 2013 7:12pm
Kea

Lucy, misunderstanding honey ! Poland is not the Balkans. I meant former Yugoslavia states.
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August 2, 2013 7:13pm
nasska

Only in Islam. 🙂

Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tra2uepdg38wh3/Muslim%202.jpg
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August 2, 2013 7:24pm
Reid

I’m afraid Kea’s correct on the Catholicism/NAZI connexions Lucia. That’s what the ratlines were all about.

For Christians, the imperative to do so is fundamental, yet in countries like Iran is is physically dangerous for them to do so. I don’t call that living there peacefully.

There are Synagogues and Christian churches in Iran Lucia. There aren’t any in Saudi Arabia, but no-one seems to mind that, seeing as how SA is the west’s friend and all. Isn’t that peculiar. But if you want to cite an Islamic country that best expresses what you decry, then you shouldn’t look past all the ME Western Satraps: Saudi Arabia, Oman, UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait. They’re all much much worse than the others in terms of this dynamic. It’s just the Western MSM doesn’t talk about that very much. Isn’t that also peculiar, seeing as how the Western Press is so free.

For Christians, the imperative to do so is fundamental, yet in countries like Iran is is physically dangerous for them to do so.

Yes you’re correct apostatizing isn’t permitted, but when in Rome… And if one wanted to change that perspective in the Islamic world so apostatizing is OK, do you think the West is going about it in the correct way? I may be wrong, but I would have thought bombing the heck out of the infidels probably won’t achieve that objective, IF that was the objective. Which of course it isn’t. On the other hand, if the objective is to radicalise a population and drive them into a frenzy, then the West’s ‘War on Tewwor” strategy makes perfect sense. And all the useful idiots back home in the West fall for it. Saying, yeah, right, whenever a result of the strategy is fed to them by you know who, the Western MSM.

Personally, I stopped being played like a violin over a decade ago. It’s quite interesting, watching billions of people from the society you live in, from the outside, as they are manipulated into approving of a general war on Muslims when they eventually manufacture an outrage sufficient to justify its open declaration. Interesting, not pleasurable.

And one question Lucia. What would Jesus have done if faced with this?
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August 2, 2013 7:33pm
UglyTruth

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God

A better translation would be ‘zealous’. Those monotheists have a lot to answer for.
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August 2, 2013 7:41pm
bereal

in no particular order.

Kea ,6.45 and 6.43
Either on purpose or by design you miss the salient point.
i will try and draw you a picture in the hope you may understand.

The Christian belief is that ‘no other God than me,” etc. etc. that is your
free will decision and the consequence of not recognising that is that you may
not enter the Kingdom of the Lord.

The muslim belief is, ‘do not submit to islam, we will kill you.’ ( In this life, right now.)

Get the difference Kea ? If you dissagree with that, please explain.( you can ask Mummy for
some crayons and colour that in.)

And Redbaiter @ 6.47 if that is the best you have to offer, why not just fuck off to a
disscussion more in keeping with your views. Scoffing is not making a point… get it ?

Reid, i’ll think about what you said and come back to you.
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August 2, 2013 7:56pm
nasska

Doctor: “I’m afraid I have some good news
and some bad news, Mr Hottwot.”

Mr Hottwot: “Well, give me the good news first, Doc.”

Doctor: “Your lab tests came back today,
and your crabs are all gone.”

Mr Hottwot: Gee, that’s great! But what’s the
bad news?”

Doctor: “We don’t know what killed them.”
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August 2, 2013 8:00pm
Black with a Vengeance

Forgot it was the Sabbath…

As you were!
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August 2, 2013 8:02pm
bereal

Reid @ 7.33
Are you able to condense that into one or two sentences so we can get a grip on
what point you are trying to make ?
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August 2, 2013 8:05pm
UglyTruth

The Nazis completely destroyed Warsaw in 1944 before the Soviets got there (they spent three months doing it after a three month battle with the underground army) and they did this because they were best buds with Polish Catholics???

They were called Poles only because of the treaty of Versailles, ethnically they were Germans. They were not treated well by the Poles.

“Poland wants war with Germany and Germany will not be able to avoid it even if she wants to.” (Polish Marshal Rydz-Smigly as reported in the Daily Mail, August 6th, 1939)
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August 2, 2013 8:09pm
bereal

naaska
i liked your other one more.

Doctor,” I’ve got a dose of Aids”.

“Who did you catch it from ?”

“How would I know ?
You think I’ve got eyes in the back of my head ?”
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August 2, 2013 8:10pm
nasska

At my age, I didn’t think I had it in me any more, but I just pulled an all-nighter for the first time in years.

Not once did I have to get up to use the toilet.
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August 2, 2013 8:14pm
UglyTruth

The muslim belief is, ‘do not submit to islam, we will kill you.’ ( In this life, right now.)

And then you went and drank the kool-aid right up, eh bereal?
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August 2, 2013 8:16pm
bereal

Jeez, UglyTruth

What the fuck was that moronic effort suposed to mean ?

Birdbrain.
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August 2, 2013 8:24pm
Reid

Are you able to condense that into one or two sentences so we can get a grip on what point you are trying to make ?

Billions of people from Western societies are being manipulated into approving of a general war on Muslims when they eventually manufacture an outrage sufficient to justify its open declaration.

If you don’t think they [the Western leaders] would do that, then why do we have mass immigration into Western Europe against the express wishes of their own electorates with all the consequent effects we witness?

If you wanted to foment racial hatred, what better way? And what other explanation is there?

That’s not the only strand in fact that’s a tiny strand of the argument, but you asked for only a few sentences bereal.
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August 2, 2013 8:28pm
nasska

Reid

You do realise that even if you are absolutely correct, that your knowledge is worthless? If it is all part of a gigantic master plan to kick off WW3 then the instigators have already succeeded.

The build up to an almighty Islam vs West stoush is rolling along nicely.
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August 2, 2013 8:35pm
UglyTruth

Your first mistake is thinking that Islam is a religion. It is a political and totalitarian system which uses religion as beard.

And then you went and drank the kool-aid right up, eh Twinkletoes?

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
The Qur’an, Surah 2:256
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August 2, 2013 8:35pm
publicwatchdog

Biography of Prime Minister John Key’s Chief of Staff, Wayne Eagleson.

http://www.anzsog.edu.au/magma/media/upload/ckeditor/files/Alumni%20Events/Wayne_Eagleson_Bio.pdf

” Wayne Eagleson is Chief of Staff to prime Minister John Key.

Wayne was Chief of Staff to Mr Key as Leader of the opposition from November 2006 to the last election in November 2008.
Prior to that Wayne was Chief of Staff to Mr Key’s predecessor Dr Don Brash from November 2005.

In his role as Chief of Staff, Wayne is responsible for the management of the Prime Minister’s office and leads the political
staff throughout the government.

He is also actively involved in the management of the relationships with support parties represented in parliament.

This is Wayne’s second stint as a political advisor.
Between 1986 and 1993 he worked for National as a researcher, private Secretary to then Leader Jim Bolger, Director of the party’s research Unit and as the Campaign Director for the 1993 General Election.

During his twelve year period out of politics, Wayne held a number of senior public affairs roles, including general Manager
Corporate affairs at DB Breweries, head of Media relations at Westpac Banking Corporation, and general Manager public
affairs at Transpower New Zealand Limited. …”
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

So – where did Prime Minister John Key’s Chief of Staff, Wayne Eagleson, get his his training to give ‘impartial, high quality advice’?

Oh – that’s right.

Not his job, as the Chief of Staff for the Office of the Prime Minister – that’s the job of the DEPARTMENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET?

http://www.dpmc.govt.nz/dpmc

“Administrative support to the Prime Minister

This includes preparation of replies to Parliamentary questions, and dealing with Official Information Act requests and other correspondence. A totally separate body, the Office of the Prime Minister, also advises the Prime Minister: it is the primary point of responsibility for managing political issues and relationships with other political parties and for providing administrative and media support.”

“STRUCTURE

DPMC formally came into existence on 1 January 1990, as a result of a report which recommended establishing structures to provide two separate streams of advice to the Prime Minister; one, a new government department to supply impartial, high quality advice and support to the Prime Minister and Cabinet (DPMC), and another, a Prime Minister’s Private Office (which is not part of DPMC), to provide personal support and media services, and advice of a party political nature.”

Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption /anti-privatisation’ campaigner
2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate
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August 2, 2013 8:37pm
UglyTruth

If it is all part of a gigantic master plan to kick off WW3 then the instigators have already succeeded.

Because every plan that was ever hatched was a success, right, nasska?
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August 2, 2013 8:38pm
nasska

The closer the plan gets to fruition the safer it is to say it will succeed UT.
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August 2, 2013 8:45pm
UglyTruth

Sure, but you could say the same for any old plan.
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August 2, 2013 8:52pm
bhudson

This risks exploding into the issue of the term – and no guarantees it will be a full term by the way things are going.

@Pete George,

Sorry mate, you spend far too much time at The Stranded.

The closest this thing has got to the forefront of voters’ minds is as the wrapping for their fish ‘n’ chips.
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August 2, 2013 8:57pm
nasska

….”The closest this thing has got to the forefront of voters’ minds is as the wrapping for their fish ‘n’ chips.”….

Spot on! The whole thing is a beltway/media issue & no one in the real world gives a stuff.

If you try to bring up the subject with the average bloke in the street their eyes start to glaze over.
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August 2, 2013 9:04pm
UglyTruth

The closest this thing has got to the forefront of voters’ minds is as the wrapping for their fish ‘n’ chips.

I dunno. If you sleep with dogs you should expect some fleas.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/313039-congress-to-probe-lethal-seal-crash

Congress to probe lethal crash that killed SEAL Team 6 members

…

The president promised he would investigate, Strange said, but he never heard back from the White House. The Pentagon, meanwhile, has provided him and others with incomplete and contradictory information, he said.

…

Klayman, Strange and others have questioned why so many special ops were on one aircraft that they claim was not equipped for such a dangerous mission. They also want to know why members of Team 6 weren’t looked after just months after the bin Laden operation.
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August 2, 2013 9:09pm
bhudson

Sorry Ugly Truth,

I forgot that you can read the chem trails…
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August 2, 2013 9:10pm
BlueGriffon

I recall a Herald front page well before 911 about terrorist cells in Auckland, low and behold a quick Google delivers the following: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=149118

Command centre in Mt Albert of all places.
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August 2, 2013 9:12pm
kowtow

So now J Key has pointed the finger at New Zealanders (yeah right) training in Yemen ,will the media take an indepth interest?

Fat chance.

How many immigrant communities in Aotearoa formerly New Zealand harbour chappies who feel the need to travel and train in jihad?

What is it about Muslims world wide that compels them to this violence?
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August 2, 2013 9:20pm
mikenmild

Very stupid of Key to talk about such a thing.
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August 2, 2013 9:22pm
Lucia Maria

I’m afraid Kea’s correct on the Catholicism/NAZI connexions Lucia. That’s what the ratlines were all about.

The “ratlines” existed all over the place, including the ones run by Allied governments. While there were some priests involved in helping Nazis escape after WWII, this was not Vatican or Church policy. Considering that the Catholic Church actively worked to thwart the Nazis where ever possible (except for the Ustaše), and considering that many Catholic priests were imprisoned in concentration camps, and that it was an excommunicable offense for a Catholic to even be a Nazi from 1933; so to say that Kea is correct is like saying Bereal is correct that ALL Muslims want to kill every non-Muslim (which Bereal is not saying, just in case you misunderstand me). It’s a misrepresentation of what Kea is saying and is giving blanket approval to all of his wild and false accusations.

There are Synagogues and Christian churches in Iran Lucia. There aren’t any in Saudi Arabia, but no-one seems to mind that, seeing as how SA is the west’s friend and all. Isn’t that peculiar. But if you want to cite an Islamic country that best expresses what you decry, then you shouldn’t look past all the ME Western Satraps: Saudi Arabia, Oman, UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait. They’re all much much worse than the others in terms of this dynamic. It’s just the Western MSM doesn’t talk about that very much. Isn’t that also peculiar, seeing as how the Western Press is so free.

Not saying there are not Synagogues and Christian churches in Iran, and I know there aren’t any in Saudi Arabia, and yes, people mind about that. The Vatican has been in conversation with the Saudis about allowing Catholics to practise there, but I guess that’s too dangerous even for the rulers to allow given the murderous reaction that some Muslims have to other religions.

Your last two sentences are weird. The Western MSM doesn’t care that there aren’t churches in Saudi Arabia, for the same reason they don’t take too much notice of Catholic churches being destroyed in Nigeria – they don’t give a damn. The Western MSM is anti-Christian and anti-Catholic, so no churches being allowed, or churches being destroyed (by Muslims) doesn’t really rate as newsworthy.

And Iran, that beacon of tolerance where Christians (and Jews) live in peace in a Muslim majority country risk being imprisoned just for being Christian. Just have a look at this link for Iran, which is updated regularly with new reports of persecution for just how difficult it is to be Christian in that country (even though Saudi Arabia is worse)

Yes you’re correct apostatizing isn’t permitted, but when in Rome… And if one wanted to change that perspective in the Islamic world so apostatizing is OK, do you think the West is going about it in the correct way? I may be wrong, but I would have thought bombing the heck out of the infidels probably won’t achieve that objective, [..]

Interesting leap there. You make a (false) claim that Christians and Jews live quite peacefully in Iran, which I refute, and then moving on you go on to refute yourself by inferring that it’s not good that “apostatizing” is not permitted, so what are we doing to change that and how could we do it better and maybe we should stop blowing them up.

Two different issues, Reid.

Christians have existed in Muslim countries even before those countries became Muslim, so how “we” treated them is irrelevant. Ever since the Muslim invasions of the Roman Empire, there has been a systematic destruction of the Christian faith. What Christians and churches we see now in Islamic countries of the old Roman Empire are but a remnant of what used to be there. Islam is not compatible with other faiths, that’s why there’s hardly any Christians in previously Christian lands. Which is not quite Bereal’s point either, but it certainly backs it up.

So, going back to your original comment to Bereal:

You will submit to islam or they will kill you. That is what muslims believe. Do you understand that ?

And you “know” this how, bereal?

By reading an article that sounds like Kea wrote it except talking about Islam and not Christianity?

By their actions ye shall know them.

Yes, by their actions ye shall know them. How many thousands upon thousands of Christian churches have been destroyed or converted into mosques, and how many Christians have been killed or enslaved just for being Christian in conquered lands over the centuries? We will never know the exact number. But history with Islam didn’t just start last century. It’s been ongoing since the 7th.

Personally, I stopped being played like a violin over a decade ago. It’s quite interesting, watching billions of people from the society you live in, from the outside, as they are manipulated into approving of a general war on Muslims when they eventually manufacture an outrage sufficient to justify its open declaration. Interesting, not pleasurable.

I think it’s more effective to just look for the truth, no matter what. Far more satisfying and less likely to lead you astray. Seek and you will find and all of that.

And one question Lucia. What would Jesus have done if faced with this?

Too difficult to answer in a blog comment. The question is far too broad.
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August 2, 2013 9:24pm
Lucia Maria

They were called Poles only because of the treaty of Versailles, ethnically they were Germans. They were not treated well by the Poles.

“Poland wants war with Germany and Germany will not be able to avoid it even if she wants to.” (Polish Marshal Rydz-Smigly as reported in the Daily Mail, August 6th, 1939)

Poland as a nation has beeb in existence from before the year 1000 A.D. The Treaty of Versailles did not create Poland, it merely recognised her sovereignty after the expulsion of foreign powers. Try and tell a Pole that they are “ethnically German” and see where that gets you.

That quote from Rydz-Smigly (if accurate) would just reflect the inevitably of war with Germany which had been evident for years prior.
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August 2, 2013 9:31pm
UglyTruth

What is it about Muslims world wide that compels them to this violence?

Violent jihad is primarily a response to oppression. More recently Muslim extremists have been guided towards particular political objectives by the west…

To paraphrase Edmonds: though the collusion with radical Islam had been going on for decades, it wasn’t until 1996 that a formal decision was made by NATO to abandon their previous secret relationship with neo-Fascists and arch-Nationalists and replace them with Islamists.
http://wideshut.co.uk/gladio-b-the-origins-of-natos-secret-islamic-terrorist-proxies/
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August 2, 2013 9:36pm
UglyTruth

The Treaty of Versailles did not create Poland, it merely recognised her sovereignty after the expulsion of foreign powers.

No, it did more than that, Lucia.

The Treaty of Versailles, signed in the Versailles Palace outside Paris on June 28, 1919, between the Allied Powers and Germany, brought World War I to an end. In this treaty Poland was given complete independence, control over large areas of land populated by Germans, and an outlet to the sea.
http://polandpoland.com/treaty_versailles.html

The oppression of Germans within the new Polish border is a reason for Hitler’s invasion of Poland which is often conveniently (cough) left out of the narrative.
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August 2, 2013 9:42pm
Lucia Maria

Ugly,

Have a look at Poland prior to the partitions of 1772, and you’ll see that areas with Germans living in them were historically Polish. Link to Historical maps of Poland.

Oppression of Germans was a pretext for war, not the actual reason, which was Lebenstraum. The Germans even staged a fake attack of “Polish soldiers” as an excuse for the initial invasion.
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August 2, 2013 9:56pm
UglyTruth

Have a look at Poland prior to the partitions of 1772, and you’ll see that areas with Germans living in them were historically Polish.

Go back even further and they were German.
http://www.rollintl.com/roll/_images/germaniamap.gif

Oppression of Germans was a pretext for war, not the actual reason, which was Lebenstraum.

And you know this how, exactly?
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August 2, 2013 10:04pm
Lucia Maria

You going to give a year for that map?

I know about Lebenstraum, because that was the reason for the invasion given by Hitler to his commanders prior to the invasion.
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August 2, 2013 10:08pm
Reid

While there were some priests involved in helping Nazis escape after WWII, this was not Vatican or Church policy.

Yes, normally these things aren’t published Lucia so how would you or I know whether or not it was the policy? All you and I can do is infer from history what the liklihood is given what happened. So we have this and this isn’t a few maverick priests.

The Anglicans do “this” too. Don’t get me wrong. It’s a hard truth. But it’s there.

The Western MSM doesn’t care that there aren’t churches in Saudi Arabia, for the same reason they don’t take too much notice of Catholic churches being destroyed in Nigeria – they don’t give a damn.

Yes and given the media are the main useful idiot vehicle for social engineering aka “progressive” change, what conclusions does one draw from that?

Ever since the Muslim invasions of the Roman Empire, there has been a systematic destruction of the Christian faith.

Whereas we haven’t done anything wrong? Ever?

We will never know the exact number.

If you want to read an excellent book on how Muslims view non-Muslims then read Islam and the Jews by Mark Gabriel, and what he says they think is not pretty. My point is, “how we treated them [and treat them now] is [NOT] irrelevant,” it is the crux of the issue. See what is happening now in the world is the social engineers from Travistock are leveraging the ethnic and the religious propensities of the Muslim nations and portraying them in the Western media as fanatics, which they are not. Their ethnic propensities however make them appear looking through Western lenses, as if, of course they are. And the Western media is pretending that they are why they are not because of their ethnic propensities but because of their religion. That’s why I say, most people in the West are being played like a violin. And that’s why I asked, if this was happening, what would Jesus do. Because it’s quite obvious, isn’t it. Empathy. Empathy. Empathy. That’s what is notably and glaringly absent from all Western foreign policy and from all Western media reporting.
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August 2, 2013 10:09pm
Nookin

Labour telling half truths with intent to deceive again. Now that’s a surprise.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8996655/Misleading-state-housing-figures
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August 2, 2013 10:20pm
UglyTruth

You going to give a year for that map?

Early second century, I don’t know exactly when.

I know about Lebenstraum, because that was the reason for the invasion given by Hitler to his commanders prior to the invasion.

Hitler and his generals weren’t always on the same page when it came to foreign policy. Lebenstraum as the reason for the invasion of Poland is problematic because of the protocol with Russia which conceded Polish territory to the Soviets – remember that there were already Germans occupying this new territory. Polish oppression of Germans is more likely because Hitler was a socialist and socialism is very much about cooperation between members of the group.
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August 2, 2013 10:30pm
Lucia Maria

Ugly,

Early 2nd century there was no kingdom of Germany, or land of Germany as a state, it was just outside of Rome where those Barbarians lived. I would suggest looking at more modern maps where Germany actually exists as a country, otherwise we’re arguing completely different things.

Hitler and his generals weren’t always on the same page when it came to foreign policy. Lebenstraum as the reason for the invasion of Poland is problematic because of the protocol with Russia which conceded Polish territory …

Blah, blah, blah…

Look, the German’s plan was always to invade the Soviet Union as well, protocol or treaty aside. The Polish General my Dad’s family owes their freedom to was imprisoned and tortured by the Soviets when they invaded because he told them that’s what the Germans were going to do. He wasn’t privy to any secret plans, it was just obvious from a military point of view and from an understanding of how the Germans think.

Hitler wanted to rule the world (eventually), all this “cooperation between members of the group” when it comes to socialist is a load of crap. They eat their own when they are no longer useful.
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August 2, 2013 11:38pm
Lucia Maria

Reid,

Yes, normally these things aren’t published Lucia so how would you or I know whether or not it was the policy?

What you do is cross-check the evidence. Does the accusation match up? For instance, wouldn’t it be strange for the Vatican to be supporting the Nazis, if the Nazis were rounding up Catholic priests and imprisoning them in concentration camps? Does it make sense that there are anti-Nazi encyclicals published, wouldn’t you think that if the Vatican was pro-Nazi, these wouldn’t exist? Likewise the automatic excommunication of Catholics who join the Nazi party from 1933?

All you and I can do is infer from history what the liklihood is given what happened. So we have this and this isn’t a few maverick priests.

Your “this” is a load of crap.

I have spent years debunking the myths about Pope Pius XII, on this blog, on mine and on another of others, and people spreading untruths about a holy man just make me mad.

If you don’t want to be played like a violin, read this article: Former Spy Speaks on Plot to Frame Pontiff on how the Soviets used a play to cast Pope Pius XII as a collaborator with the Nazis in order to destroy moral authority of the Church, and this book: Hitler, the War and Pope.

Ever since the Muslim invasions of the Roman Empire, there has been a systematic destruction of the Christian faith.

Whereas we haven’t done anything wrong? Ever?

I didn’t make that point in order to say we’ve never done anything wrong, I made the point to show that Islam is not compatible with other faiths as can be seen throughout history in order to support the original contention by Bereal that you submit to Islam or die. It’s not quite that, as there are levels of submission in between, so there is nuance in that submission, but anyway, you’re taking what I said and using it for your own ends (and a different argument) without acknowledging the point at all.

I do admit that how we treat Muslims has to change. But before we treated them how they are treated in modern times, they were our biggest threat due to the expansionist nature of Islam and how it assimilates superior cultures (the Eastern Roman Empire being the prime example). That can be separated from the individual people, but the ideology has to be understood.
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August 3, 2013 12:13am
cha

it assimilates superior cultures

See, darwinian-ism at work….
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August 3, 2013 1:16am
Manolo

Peaceful followers of vile Islam: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/02/us-issues-global-travel-alert-over-al-qaeda-threat-prepares-to-close-embassies/
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August 3, 2013 6:41am
UglyTruth

Early 2nd century there was no kingdom of Germany, or land of Germany as a state

So what? The reasons why Hitler invaded Poland didn’t include the national status of the 2nd century Germani peoples. The point is that Hitler had a just cause to take action against Poland in order to remedy the oppression of German people on what was, historically speaking, their land. This point is underscored by Polish Marshal Rydz-Smigly’s call for war with Germany.

all this “cooperation between members of the group” when it comes to socialist is a load of crap. They eat their own when they are no longer useful.

Not in orthodox socialism they don’t. That is more a feature of the eugenics movement.
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August 3, 2013 8:09am
Kea

Peaceful followers of vile Islam:

manolo, it is not minimising Islams wrongs to compare the number of countries attacked and invaded by the worlds biggest christian nation.

Tally up the number of people killed by Muslims with the number killed by the black war lord Obama. The reason he does this is not US security, it is Israeli security. It is the Jews waging war by proxy, if you insist on considering things along religious lines. I doubt you actually understand the scale of Obama’s war mongering.
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August 3, 2013 8:18am
Lucia Maria

Ugly,

Early 2nd century there was no kingdom of Germany, or land of Germany as a state

So what? The reasons why Hitler invaded Poland didn’t include the national status of the 2nd century Germani peoples.

So you are admitting that the map you presented of the early 2nd Century Germanic tribal regions outside of Rome are irrelevant to your argument, which was my point as well. What is relevant is the territory with supposedly oppressed Germans living in it was part of Poland prior to the annexations by Prussia, Austria and Russia where Poland ceased to exist an independent nation state for a time. The Treaty of Versailles recognised traditional Polish territory – it didn’t artificially create Poland out of nothing as you are implying.

The point is that Hitler had a just cause to take action against Poland in order to remedy the oppression of German people on what was, historically speaking, their land.

Right, from the 2nd century where no actual German state existed. If you look at those maps I provided, that area had been part of the Polish state from at least 1025 to 1772. Germans may have moved into the area as it was annexed by Prussia in 1772, but Prussia ceased to exist after WWI and given that the land had been previously taken by force by a state that no longer existed, it was only just that it revert back to the original state that it had been taken from. So when you say that it was historically German land, that is false.

all this “cooperation between members of the group” when it comes to socialist is a load of crap. They eat their own when they are no longer useful.

Not in orthodox socialism they don’t. That is more a feature of the eugenics movement.

So, Hitler was an orthodox socialist, was he? Good to know I can look to his actions to see how they operate.
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August 3, 2013 11:07am
UglyTruth

So, Hitler was an orthodox socialist, was he?

No, he wasn’t. He didn’t fit well into any particular system of classification.
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August 3, 2013 1:05pm

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