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August 17, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 17 August 2013

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Viking2

I felt the earth move under my feet. 😆

Mornin’ Wellywood. Fantasy land again eh.
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August 17, 2013 8:01am
kowtow

Anniversary of a massacre.

But as it was committed under an ANC govt, activists and the MSM will largely ignore it.

It’s only evil when it’s whitey.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2013/08/20138167930914318.html
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August 17, 2013 8:05am
Pete George

To avoid upset – my latest news only for those who are interested: Your Dunedin, your choice.
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August 17, 2013 8:05am
Viking2

Everyone should read this. It is critical anaylsis of the GCSB bill. Now I know its boring and all but it’s your future communications and your use of the internet and how every time you make a keystroke on the internet you are vulnerable.

Pity is that none of the grunt this implies will be used to catch people like the Nigerian scammers etc. but will be used against you personally if it suits the Govt. Ignore it at your and our peril.

The PM’s reassurances are flawed and unconvincing

On television this week Prime Minister John Key tried to assure the public it was “totally incorrect” that “the Government effectively through GCSB will be able to wholesale spy on New Zealanders”.

Those who contend otherwise are, he says, plain wrong. That Mr Key has at last seen fit to engage in public debate about the effect of the GCSB bill demonstrates how critical his denial of the “wholesale spying” claim is, as far as the rest of us are concerned.

The last thing that many will want to read is yet another opinion piece on the GCSB bill. But this issue really is the centre of controversy over the undemocratic way this bill is being rammed through, despite legitimate public concerns about the rampant interception of communications occurring here and overseas.

In order to understand what the GCSB bill would do and whether it goes too far, it is necessary to compare its provisions with those of the existing GCSB Act 2003. That is necessary to refute Mr Key’s claims that nothing much is changing.

We need first to identify the three kinds of information or data at stake. First, there is the content of our communications, electronic and otherwise. Secondly, there is the “metadata”, the transactional record generated when we communicate electronically (such as email), other than content. Thirdly, there are the “keystrokes”: the record of our online activities, such as the websites we visit. Each of these, collected over time and potentially stored forever, will disclose a great deal about us. Combined, they have the potential to create an extraordinarily revealing portrait of each of us and our associations and interests.

In a nutshell, the reason why Mr Key is wrong as a matter of law in claiming that New Zealanders have nothing to fear from the GCSB bill is that his limited analysis of the three new functions to be conferred on the GCSB totally overlooks the point that the statutory intelligence-gathering powers of the GCSB are also being considerably expanded, at the same time as its functions are. When the totality of the changes is considered, we have a major increase in the overall role and powers of the GCSB. That, in some instances, the Prime Minister’s authority is required for the GCSB to proceed cannot alter this.

The present GCSB Act limits the GCSB to gathering and analysis of “foreign intelligence”, defined to mean “information about the capabilities, intentions, or activities of a foreign organisation or a foreign person”. That is, it is prohibited from spying to obtain intelligence on New Zealanders and equally, on New Zealand entities and businesses.

The GCSB bill abolishes the restraint on GCSB activities to “foreign intelligence”, and instead confers three considerably expanded functions. When Mr Key stated on television that the first of the three things the GCSB would be empowered to do is “foreign intelligence-gathering – nothing to do with New Zealanders”, he was in error. The new 8B function discussed below covers both foreign and domestic intelligence-gathering.

The bill would give the GCSB under 8A a much wider cybersecurity protection function. Intelligence-gathering by the GCSB is empowered under that function, but significantly the limited protection conferred by proposed section 14 in relation to the “personal communications” of New Zealand citizens and permanent residents (“New Zealanders”, for short) would not apply to the GCSB when operating under 8A.

Secondly, a new intelligence-gathering and analysis function is to be conferred on the GCSB under 8B. This function is very broadly worded. In particular it permits the gathering of intelligence about “information infrastructures”. That is defined widely enough to cover all types of electronic data systems (phones, computers, ISPs and telecommunications networks) and their content.

These two new intelligence-gathering functions are not in any way restricted solely to targeted intelligence-gathering and collection of data (as against “wholesale spying”), from New Zealanders or indeed from others. By contrast with the present act, the GCSB bill both substantially expands the scope of the existing “interception warrants”, and introduces a new information-gathering tool, the “access authorisation”. Under proposed 15A(1), an interception warrant can be granted to intercept the communications of one or more persons or classes of persons or of “places” (for example, the location of an ISP), or all or any communications sent from or to a nominated overseas country. An access authorisation can also be granted authorising the accessing of one or more specified “information infrastructures” or classes of infrastructure. These are very broad “wholesale” powers.

Furthermore, if the bill becomes law the GCSB, when it asks the Prime Minister for a warrant or authorisation, does not have to make out any particular threat to national security in relation to particular individuals, or even a generalised threat to security. That is by distinct contrast to our other spy agency the NZSIS, which must do so. The GCSB merely has to identify a hoped-for outcome which sufficiently justifies the interception or access which it is proposing. That is a very low threshold. Thus the bill will provide the GCSB with tools which will enable it to engage in “wholesale spying”.

The GCSB bill does draw a distinction between New Zealanders and others. Under section 14 the GCSB when performing its 8B intelligence-gathering function is forbidden from deliberately targeting New Zealanders for the purpose of intercepting their “private communications”. However, that definitely does not mean the communications of all in New Zealand are safe from “wholesale spying” by the GCSB, let alone by New Zealand’s security partners.

The section 14 protection relates only to private communications, defined in such a way as to exclude metadata and also any communication “occurring in circumstances in which any party ought reasonably to expect that the communication may be intercepted by” a third party. And because the section 14 prohibition on targeting relates only to the “intercepting” of private communications, it would appear to relate only to interception warrants as such, and not the new and highly potent “access authorisation”. The section 14 protection is strictly limited to New Zealanders. It will not protect the “private communications” of New Zealand legal entities such as NGOs or businesses.

Mr Key is careful to limit his concession – announced on Thursday – to the GCSB’s cyber-security function. There is no such concession regarding not accessing New Zealanders’ content in the first instance under the 8B function. But that is the main area of expanded power, and of concern. Thus the concession falls far short of an adequate assurance.

The third new function proposed (under 8C) is one of co-operation with other agencies to facilitate their functions. Here the bill as reported back has improved the drafting. But it remains a significantly expanded function compared with the present act. And Mr Key refuses outright to identify precisely what activities by the GCSB would be authorised to carry out under the guise of providing co-operation, advice and assistance to the Police, the Defence Force and the NZSIS. That is unacceptable.

The Prime Minister’s attempt to reassure New Zealanders we are not sleepwalking into a total surveillance society is, unfortunately, flawed in its legal analysis and fails to convince.

• Dr Rodney Harrison, QC, has been active in the public debate challenging the GCSB legislation.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10913479
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August 17, 2013 8:06am
Dennis Horne

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/10247808/Cadbury-pensioners-told-no-more-Christmas-gifts.html

Income of Cadbury CEO goes from £14.4m to £18.9m but Christmas chocolates to company pensioners scrapped to save £210,000.
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August 17, 2013 8:08am
Keeping Stock

You could have saved us all a lot of wasted time by posting at the top that it was Rodney Harrison’s opinion Viking2. He may have a doctorate, and he may be a QC, but he is anything but a neutral observer on this issue, and his opinion should be viewed in that light. He has been beating this drum since the 1990’s when he was the leading light in the Auckland Council of Civil Liberties.

http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/a180299.htm
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August 17, 2013 8:39am
Akaroa

Re-Viking2 at 8.08.

Yes, yes, yes, Viking2!. We know all that!.

Tell me, do you seriously think that you/we are not already overseen/monitored/’spied on” (as you choose to put it) from cradle to grave already?

Clearly you’ve never worked in marketing!!

Listen, if you don’t do bad stuff you’ve got nothing to worry about. If you do – then good on the ‘system’ for being able to catch you out
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August 17, 2013 8:41am
Keeping Stock

Rent-a-mob will be out in Auckland this afternoon, throwing dead fish at John Key’s home. That’s REALLY going to get the public onside with them – not! By all means protest, but leave MPs’ homes out of it; their families and their neighbours are not part of the argument.

And as for the dead fish throwing; what a waste of good kaimoana. Rent-a-mob would get much better press if they gave the fish to Auckland City Mission or someone else that feeds the hungry.

http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2013/08/a-fishy-protest.html
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August 17, 2013 8:43am
Scott Chris

To avoid upset – my latest news only for those who are interested

Jeez Pete, write what you want but ffs, enough with the relentless and cheesy titled link-whoring already.
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August 17, 2013 8:44am
Nostalgia-NZ

‘….but he is anything but a neutral observer on this issue, and his opinion should be viewed in that light.’

Well done KS, and you of course are a neutral observer.
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August 17, 2013 8:47am
Akaroa

And Dennis Horne at 8.08, whilst i’m about it

Good on Cadbury for stopping the Christmas chocolate goodies to their pensioners.

Didn’t you know that excessive chocolate consumption can lead to a multitude of undesirable physical/medical conditions?

Come on bloggers – lift your game!! Not another day of contestable, ludicrous and erroneous bulls–t! Per-leeeze!!

Much more of this and i’ll hand in my laptop!
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August 17, 2013 8:48am
Paulus

Keeping Stock

Just that the so called media do not want us to know that Harrison he has a political activist’s background.

Does not suit the media’s left wing philosophy and editorials.
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August 17, 2013 8:48am
Dennis Horne

I gave Pete George a tick up for consideration.

How are you Scott? Not feeling yourself? 😉
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August 17, 2013 8:50am
Pete George

Rodney Harrison was on ‘Citizen A’ with Martyn Bradbury and Grant Robertson, and is a speaker (along with about fifty others) at the Bradbury organised town hall protest in Auckland on Monday night.

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/08/16/citizen-a-gcsb-special-with-dr-rodney-harrison-qc-grant-robertson/

Amongst the other speakers are Shearer, Norman, Peters and Harawira. It’s political. Very political.
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August 17, 2013 8:53am
Dennis Horne

What these idealists don’t realise is that if we don’t do the “spying” ourselves the Americans will do it anyway and we won’t have any control over it at all.
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August 17, 2013 8:55am
Keeping Stock

N-NZ said

Well done KS, and you of course are a neutral observer.

Absolutely not N-NZ, nor do I make any pretence to be. But let’s not pretend that Dr Harrison, despite his academic and professional qualifications is anything other than a long-time opponent of National governments.

And the “critical analysis” that V2 refers to is nothing more than Dr Harrison’s opinion, which is very political. Note too that he also delivered the Law Society’s GCSB submission, which may explain the PM’s ambivalence to it.
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August 17, 2013 8:56am
Manolo

Communists, doom merchants, and enemies of New Zealand: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/9050239/Greens-15-toll-for-Transmission-Gully
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August 17, 2013 8:57am
joana

At least Dr Harrison is familiar with law which cannot be said to for key who is always far too general in his thinking and casual on details to have ever been a lawyer.
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August 17, 2013 9:05am
UglyTruth

What these idealists don’t realise is that if we don’t do the “spying” ourselves the Americans will do it anyway and we won’t have any control over it at all.

Really? How are they going to access NZ communications infrastructure without local cooperation?
Being an idealist is way better than being a whore of the empire.
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August 17, 2013 9:09am
Dennis Horne

Lawyers are nitpickers. There’s more money in picking at nits than synthesising ideas.
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August 17, 2013 9:14am
Judith

Akaroa (353) Says:
August 17th, 2013 at 8:48 am

—————————-

Just one small point. It has been found that cocoa can assist with memory and thinking ability, by helping to keep blood vessels open in the brain. Whilst milk chocolate probably isn’t ideal, due to the high fat content, the cocoa rich varieties may very well assist in clarity plus reduce effects of senile decay.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/science/flavanols-in-cocoa-may-improve-brain-function-278792.html
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August 17, 2013 9:15am
Judith

Dennis Horne (1,495) Says:
August 17th, 2013 at 9:14 am
————————–

Can you clarify that please. Is it the lawyers who have lice/nits or their clients who are infested?
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August 17, 2013 9:17am
Nostalgia-NZ

Don’t know about the politics KS. But information is to be welcomed.

‘Note too that he also delivered the Law Society’s GCSB submission, which may explain the PM’s ambivalence to it.’

And on this can’t see that the Law Society has or ever has had a ‘political role’ with its view on propose legislation – that’s going too far I think.
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August 17, 2013 9:17am
Dennis Horne

@UglyTruth. Access? Sorry, UT, you’re not cleared for that information. It’s secret. 😉
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August 17, 2013 9:17am
Dennis Horne

@Judith. Come on, you know about monkey business, Judith.
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August 17, 2013 9:21am
niggly

From V2 @ 8.06 posting:

We need first to identify the three kinds of information or data at stake. First, there is the content of our communications, electronic and otherwise. Secondly, there is the “metadata”, the transactional record generated when we communicate electronically (such as email), other than content. Thirdly, there are the “keystrokes”: the record of our online activities, such as the websites we visit. Each of these, collected over time and potentially stored forever, will disclose a great deal about us. Combined, they have the potential to create an extraordinarily revealing portrait of each of us and our associations and interests.

Not sure why civil libertarian crim-cuddling activist Rodney Harrison discussed three kinds of info/data in terms of the context of the rest of his article because it doesn’t link to anything (apart from perhaps whipping up extra imagined fear for readers) however there are some deliberately misleading statements in this paragraph.

Keystrokes are not a record of online activities (if he means people’s browsing for example), keystrokes are the deliberate recording/logging of the keys struck on a keyboard. To imply the GCSB record/log NZers keyboard typing is not only false, it is a lie and Harrison should publically apologise for implying the GCSB does this.

Harrison then talks about these three kinds of info/data being “collected over time and potentially stored forever” implying (falsely) that this is what the GCSB does to NZers online. Not true. Perhaps so if the GCSB was asked, under warrant supporting the SIS for example, but in this case we’re talking about supporting SIS surveillance on persons of interest such as terrorists, people acquiring info on weapons and people conveying instructions to undertake wilful destruction of the state (infrastructure, people, events etc).

Why Harrison and co continue to peddle the line that the GCSB is targeting everyday NZers (instead of being honest and truthful about the GCSB’s activities) is all a bit strange until one realises these people are aligned activists.

I always thought Harrison’s pronouncements on behalf of the Law Commission a few months ago were misleading and wrong (and I said so then) but now understand his history and now it all makes sense. The man is crim-hugger talking shit and putting NZers security at risk with his attacks on the GCSB legislation.

One other thing I notice the activists and Harrison in his article have started to crusade on, is that of cyber espionage monitoring suggesting the amended legislation allows open spying on NZers (in terms of the legislation wording). FFS more lies and bullshit – all it does is reinforce the GCSB can tackle cyber espionage quicker and easier by having easier access to “spy”, again we’re talking about this potentially affecting a handful of people engaging in cyber espionage not all everyday NZers.

Rodney Harrison = useful idiot. (And what a fucken ponce always calling himself “Doctor” Rodbey Harrison. Enough said)!
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August 17, 2013 9:28am
iMP

Holy urinal Christian tracts in Atlanta airport…

http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2013/08/17/urinal-the-hittite/
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August 17, 2013 9:29am
Judith

Dennis Horne (1,498) Says:
August 17th, 2013 at 9:21 am
@Judith. Come on, you know about monkey business, Judith.
—————————————

I have no idea to what you are referring 😛
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August 17, 2013 9:44am
Dennis Horne

@Judith. Are you telling me I’m barking up the wrong tree, Judith?
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August 17, 2013 9:48am
Keeping Stock

joana said

At least Dr Harrison is familiar with law which cannot be said to for key who is always far too general in his thinking and casual on details to have ever been a lawyer.

I suggest you read Trotter’s piece on Key joana; the one that DPF blogged about yesterday. Just to refresh your memory, Trotter began thus:

UNDERESTIMATING JOHN KEY is a serious mistake. Helen Clark did it in 2008, and Key knocked her out of the ring. He did the same to John Campbell last night.

When is the Left going to come to terms with the fact that John Key is National’s toughest, smartest and most dangerous leader – ever? Defeating “The Candidate from Central Casting” was never going to be easy, but our consistent failure to grasp the brute reality of Key’s clear superiority – when compared to just about every politician the Opposition can throw at him – is turning his defeat into a near impossibility.

Underestimating John Key is a very serious mistake. Helen Clark and Phil Goff both did it, to their electoral cost. Key called your mate Winston’s bluff in 2008, and Winston was out of a job. And John Campbell thought he had a slam-dunk on Wednesday, but the slam-dunk was on him.

Who will be the next to make that mistake?
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August 17, 2013 9:53am
Keeping Stock

@ N-NZ (9.17am) – the Law Society has indeed had a long history of political activism. Whether that activism has the support of all or even of a majority of its members is another story. Perhaps one of our resident legal eagles (FE Smith, David Garrett, Quintin Hogg) might be able to enlighten us all.
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August 17, 2013 9:57am
Judith

Dennis Horne (1,499) Says:
August 17th, 2013 at 9:48 am
@Judith. Are you telling me I’m barking up the wrong tree, Judith?
—————————————

I think it’s got more to do with bats in the belfry 😛
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August 17, 2013 10:01am
Dennis Horne

@Judith. Must fly, Judith…
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August 17, 2013 10:13am
Manolo

Love between friends: http://news.yahoo.com/car-bomb-kills-20-hezbollahs-beirut-stronghold-083838384.html
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August 17, 2013 10:18am
Jack5

The MSM is asleep again. It’s incompetence rather than obsolescence that’s killing it.

The MSM lords and ladies missed this great item: the number of people who have made cruelty to animals complaints to the SPCA against Prime Minister John Key has now reached 297.

The allegations are that he thrashed a kitten in public. The incident was broadcast on TV3 at 7pm on Thurday, but not even that channel, nor, surprisingly, its arch ace, Ms Wrightweiler, have reported on the follow-up.

Klaus Katnutt, the chairman of the SPCA, reckons this is one of the worst whippings of a kitten he has heard of. “Just because the little beast spits and shows its claws so often, was no justification for this,” he says in a newsletter.
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August 17, 2013 10:19am
Kea

The Obama administration support for Muslim Brotherhood Islamists in Egypt is driving the powerful military there against the United States and toward Moscow, according to U.S. officials and reports from the region.

http://freebeacon.com/obama-policies-turning-egypt-against-u-s/

The peace prize winner bringing peace to the world.
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August 17, 2013 10:23am
niggly

#2 from V2’s post:

In a nutshell, the reason why Mr Key is wrong as a matter of law in claiming that New Zealanders have nothing to fear from the GCSB bill is that his limited analysis of the three new functions to be conferred on the GCSB totally overlooks the point that the statutory intelligence-gathering powers of the GCSB are also being considerably expanded, at the same time as its functions are. When the totality of the changes is considered, we have a major increase in the overall role and powers of the GCSB. That, in some instances, the Prime Minister’s authority is required for the GCSB to proceed cannot alter this.

Note how Rodney Harrison is playing the man (JK) not the ball (all because JK whipped John Campbell’s arse on Wed so Harrison and co are counter attacking) and is again misleading/lying to the public. Harrison makes out that the Govt are expanding the role of the GSCB. These so called “new” functions have always been there (simply that National are tidying up Labour’s badly-worded, legally challenging legislation, to better clarify etc). There is no expansion in terms of anything sinister and new.

Also Harrison is misleading/lying when he claims that “Mr Key is wrong as a matter of law in claiming that New Zealanders have nothing to fear from the GCSB”. Of course NZers won’t be affected (and not even everyday protesting activists), simply a handful of people that engage terrorism related activities.

JK was right and again Rodney Harrison is wrong. Why does Harrison support not tracking terrorists?
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August 17, 2013 10:23am
niggly

#3 from V2’s post:

The present GCSB Act limits the GCSB to gathering and analysis of “foreign intelligence”, defined to mean “information about the capabilities, intentions, or activities of a foreign organisation or a foreign person”. That is, it is prohibited from spying to obtain intelligence on New Zealanders and equally, on New Zealand entities and businesses.

Bullshit Harrison and you know it, The GCSB has three functions (as per current legislation). GCSB can provide agency support to SIS to assist SIS to spy on persons of interest (which are not 99.9999999999999999999 of all NZers), they also have a cyber-security role for NZ businesses and organisations.

Why does Rodney Harrison lie? Why does he ignore the (legal) contradiction in the 2003 Act that National (and Helen Clark two weeks ago, in support) are trying to fix? Shall I continue to tear Harrison’s bulshit apart? Nah got better things to do.
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August 17, 2013 10:30am
Jack5

To Viking2’s long, boring rant at 8.06 am:

Bullshit, Viking2. In the Internet Age, in the age of mobile international terrorism, we need this legislation.

Otherwise, the terrorists win, and we ultimately get as much freedom as they had in Taliban-era Afghanistan, complete with wall-collapse executions of homosexuals, whipping of women in streets because the religious police saw a glimpse of an ankle, and banning of all girls from schools.

The implementation of security and freedom has changed completely with the Internet. If you still need total privacy — possibly for some repugnant reason — it’s easy to get with the today likely unbreakable code systems able free on the net.

There has always been a trade-off between personal privacy and public security, and the line moves with the times, as during wars. We are in a form of war now, with Muslim extremist terrorists (and there will be other types in the years ahead), ranging internationally. New Zealand’s geographic isolation is no longer a protection, as the training of NZ Muslims in Yemen Al Qaeda camps proves. So right now, we need agencies like the GCSB to be able to function efficiently.

It amuses me, that some of those most outspoken in their attacks on the GCSB bill have backgrounds that show they once supported ideologies which have been the most abusive of individual freedoms and privacy. For example, I read that one of the Greens leaders is a former Communist Party member. Others come from the Marxist fringe, which not so long ago backed Stalinism, and then even Maoism.
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August 17, 2013 10:31am
Nostalgia-NZ

‘Underestimating John Key is a very serious mistake. Helen Clark and Phil Goff both did it, to their electoral cost. Key called your mate Winston’s bluff in 2008, and Winston was out of a job. And John Campbell thought he had a slam-dunk on Wednesday, but the slam-dunk was on him..’

KS. I don’t know if Helen Clark underestimated Key at all. I think she underestimated the public mood and didn’t understand that her attempts to be patronising to JK backfired on her big time. That’s my enduring memory of it anyway, when she patronised JK she was basically patronising the electorate for not knowing better and not having the ‘experience.’ One of her worst mistakes as many kiwis identify with the underdog and generally don’t enjoy the embarrassment of seeing others put down.

That all can’t be conflated in the way you are trying however, any politician who underestimates another is being foolish because the public sense the fine line of arrogance, as I say I believe happened with Clark at the end. Likewise Key needs to watch that himself, he showed no signs of it with John Campbell because I’m sure he clearly understands it. He’s put himself in a good place at the moment, informed and reasoned but not arrogant.
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August 17, 2013 10:41am
flipper

Jack5 (3,181) Says:

August 17th, 2013 at 10:19 am
The MSM is asleep again. It’s incompetence rather than obsolescence that’s killing it.

The MSM lords and ladies missed this great item: the number of people who have made cruelty to animals complaints to the SPCA against Prime Minister John Key has now reached 297.

The allegations are that he thrashed a kitten in public. The incident was broadcast on TV3 at 7pm on Thurday, but not even that channel, nor, surprisingly, its arch ace, Ms Wrightweiler, have reported on the follow-up.

Klaus Katnutt, the chairman of the SPCA, reckons this is one of the worst whippings of a kitten he has heard of. “Just because the little beast spits and shows its claws so often, was no justification for this,” he says in a newsletter.

****

J5 … Brilliant. Someone whop knows how to reach them, should send it Palmer, Ferguson, Harrison and.., oh yes, pussycat Campbell.
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August 17, 2013 10:43am
Manolo

With friends like this, who needs enemies?: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/saudi-king-calls-arabs-stand-egypt-151611137.html
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August 17, 2013 10:45am
wikiriwhis business

Who does this bear a striking resemblance to

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=669241393087923&set=a.309602365718496.87665.100000062064715&type=1&theater
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August 17, 2013 10:46am
OneTrack

Niggly – I would put it differently. Why does Harrison support terrorists (being able to go about their art without any interruptions). This strange fantasy idea that terrorists won’t come to NZ because we are “nice” is just laughable. In fact the left, simply to meet their anti-Key narrative, sound like they are saying it is physically impossible for terrorists to be in NZ or to come here at all.

Why wouldn’t Boston or the London bus/train bombings happen here? There is little reason why not. We are still a western culture. Which makes us the enemy in many eyes (including some of our political parties but that is another story).

Maybe there should be more dialogue about it. Unfortunately the left (Greens and Labour) have already proven they are not interested in working for a better bill -they just are anti-key. Hence dialogue with them is pointless. Maybe one day we will get a useful opposition but I don’t see it happening soon. The left are simply too tribal (IMHO which does align with their focus on the collective . If you are in the other tribe, you are the enemy.)
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August 17, 2013 10:49am
Steve (North Shore)

And now for something entirely different: AT HOP.
You can not top up your AT HOP card on a bus, you have to do it at a station or agency, or online.I wanted to use my Visa Card to top up my daughters AT HOP card and found it can take up to 72 hours for the credit – WHAT? I can be in LA within 24 hours on a Visa Card yet I it takes up to 3 days to get a bus ticket credit.
I asked AT HOP why, they said thats the way the system is. I asked why the system is like that, they said it just is.
I asked who designed the software, they said the French!
Auckand Transport (Auckland Council) has a great service!
Public transport rocks!
(end of rant)
LBIAFC
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August 17, 2013 10:50am
Reid

With the Wgtn earthquakes this raises an interesting question: the list of buildings with structural similarities to the CTV building won’t be made public.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9053624/List-of-buildings-still-won-t-be-released

So of course one understands the public including me wouldn’t recognise a structural risk if it leapt up and hit me so we’re not really in a position to determine whether or not we’re prepared to work or live in a building on the list.

OTOH who is the govt to deny me this information and give me a chance to do my own research, given it’s me who gets crushed not if, but when, we get the big one in Wgtn, which could be sometime this coming week?

If these recent earthquakes had been felt in say Akld not Wgtn I rather suspect the result would be different, vis-a-vis the official advice and action on getting this list to the point where it can be released. I’ll be watching progress with interest.
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August 17, 2013 10:57am
kowtow

The people most opposed to the GCSB Bill and the media in particular are the very ones who will scream first and loudest ,if or when a bus,train ,stadium or some such place is hit by a terrorist outrage.

“The govt must protect us”, Why didn’t they know, How did this slip under the radar, Who (other than the perpetrators)is responsible,Who will be sacked etc etc

Same old story.

Mind you if our immigration and refugee policy was a tad more sensible there’d be a lot less work for the spooks.

Allahu Akbar.
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August 17, 2013 11:00am
Kea

kowtow, you are a bit late introducing religion and anti Muslim sentiment this morning. Have you figured out any solution to the jewish question yet ?
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August 17, 2013 11:10am
publicwatchdog

Good moaning Kiwibloggers!

FYI 🙂

WAIHEKE RADIO GCSB ALERT!! ! (107.4FM / 88.3FM)

TODAY, Saturday 17 August 2013, from 11.20am – 11.45am Jax Taylor will be talking about the GCSB Bill, and upcoming
Public Meeting against the GCSB Bill (Monday night, 19 August 2013, 7pm Auckland Town Hall, Queen St Auckland City). Tune in!

Most importantly – DON’T FORGET TO COME TO THIS ANTI-GCSB PUBLIC MEETING!

Tell your friends! Family! Neighbours!

If YOU support our lawful rights to privacy, and are opposed to ‘BIG BROTHER STATE’ spying on New Zealanders – stand up to be counted!
(Actually, at the Auckland Town Hall – you’ll be able to sit down – if you get there early! 😉

For more information about the GCSB, and how to give MPs supporting the GCSB Bill a message they CAN’T ignore?

http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilapeal.org.nz

Penny Bright

2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate
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August 17, 2013 11:12am
Kea

I do agree with Kowtow on restricting immigration for members of violent intolerant primitive Middle Eastern desert cults like; Judaism, Christianity and Islam. You only have to look at the mess they made of their own countries, over there in the Middle East.
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August 17, 2013 11:17am
muggins

I reckon that to use the OIA to access correspondence is akin to spying .
However, if a person lets on that have used the act for that purpose that means that the person they were “spying ” on is aware that there were “spied” on, so they in turn can use the OIA to access that persons correspondence, if you know what I mean.
Peronally I don’t have a problem with anyone “spying” on me because I don’t have anything worth “spying” about.
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August 17, 2013 11:27am
joana

Two terrorist attacks were recently prevented in Sydney.. Huge bombs which were to blow up a hospital plus an eye surgeons rooms were found..Not sure what the surgeon had done? It won’t be long before something does happen in Sydney and there would likely be NZers involved given how many are living there.
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August 17, 2013 11:28am
Reid

You only have to look at the mess they made of their own countries, over there in the Middle East.

Yes the whole Judeo-Christian civilisation thing has certainly created a monster, hasn’t it Kea. What with its Renaissance and its Reformation and its disgusting educational, legal and democratic institutions.

Sadly the whole experiments gone a bit wonky in recent times over the last hundred years or so as we’ve increasingly stepped away from the civilising influences that used to inhabit our Judeo-Christian societies and the thinking person might just wonder if the attitudes we have today in terms of selfishness and lack of discipline and obsession with material goods and suchlike might not be part of a deliberate plan to destroy such, being as how it’s all so co-ordinated. And the thinking person might just think that perhaps if society had a bit more of that historic Judeo-Christian ethic whether we as a society might be less tolerant of our current crop of world leaders who seem hell-bent on “progressive” policies which come straight out of the commie playbook which was of course, designed specifically to destroy the Judeo-Christian society, starting with the Russian Empire.

But looking back at history the beneficent influence of the Judeo-Christian ethic cannot be denied except by wilful ignorance, and pretending its responsible for our current social conditions is a bit like saying the person who came home and caught the burglar was responsible for the prison sentence the burglar received.
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August 17, 2013 11:31am
Fletch

According to the Telegraph, Al Qaeda is supposed to have developed exploding breast implants for women.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10247069/Breast-implant-explosives-could-be-used-in-terrorist-attack.html
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August 17, 2013 11:42am
Kea

Reid, your views are narrow and ignorant. Other cultures developed those things long before Judeo-Christians did. The world has not and does not revolve around European Christians and Jews.

If you open your eyes you will see those things develop without reference to imaginary beings. You may also see belief in super natural forces have been a major hurdle to progress.
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August 17, 2013 11:46am
publicwatchdog

Hi Kiwibloggers – a bit of history 🙂

When I stood for the Water Pressure Group, in the 2000 Avondale/Mt Roskill by-election, following the death of Phil Raffills, we got nearly 6,500 votes.

Came second – about 700 votes behind Noelene Raffills.

City Vision polled about 2,500 votes.

I stood, because Water Pressure Group members were sick of the treachery of some City Vision Councillors, who had signed pledges opposing Metrowater, but then had ended up supporting Metrowater……

Remember this?

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK0111/S00029/local-body-election-challenge-decision-due-wed.htm
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Why I’m standing for Mayor of Auckland Council:

I’m a proven and experienced ‘anti-corruption’ and ‘anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’.

I will expose and stop corrupt corporate control.

My track record stands for an open, transparent and democratically-accountable Auckland.

I will open the books.

Who really runs Auckland?

Try googling http://www.committeeforauckand.co.nz/membership

How?

Through ‘Council Controlled Organisations’ (CCOs), where unelected businesspeople run the Auckland region like a business, by business, for business.

It’s time to cut out the consultants and private contractors.

Public monies should benefit the public majority.

Rates, housing, transport and water services must be ‘cost-effective’ and affordable.

We need a nationally-coordinated population, migration and employment strategy.

‘Market-led’ Auckland growth, pushing rezoning and housing intensification, is decimating communities against their wishes.

Who benefits?

Property developers, speculators and overseas investors.

Following the ‘precautionary principle’ and ‘wellness’ model, will achieve a genuinely ‘clean, green’ New Zealand.

We the people must take back our Auckland region from corporate control!
………………..
________________________________________________________________________________________________

PS: If I thought any of the other Mayoral candidates could do a better job in shining a BIG public spotlight on this current infestation of, (in my considered opinion), corrupt corporate cockroaches – I’d walk away now.

I don’t – so I’m not.

Private sector businesspeople do not ‘transmogrify’ into competent and trustworthy ‘public servants’.

Private sector businesspeople, in my considered opinion, continue to look after business – their own and their mates.

(How many Auckland Council and Auckland Council CCO contracts are going to member companies of the Committee for Auckland?)

Meanwhile, for the public majority, the cost of rates and Council services keep going up………….

Kind regards,

‘Her Warship’

Penny Bright

http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz
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August 17, 2013 11:47am
TheContrarian

“Reid, your views are narrow and ignorant. Other cultures developed those things long before Judeo-Christians did.”

Exactly, like Japan for example. And China was a flourishing society long before Christianity was introduced. Same goes for the Greeks
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August 17, 2013 11:49am
Kea

Fletch (4,633) Says:
August 17th, 2013 at 11:42 am
According to the Telegraph, Al Qaeda is supposed to have developed exploding breast implants for women.

Fletch, This Telegraph ?

Israeli soldiers admit shooting dead civilians during Gaza war
Israeli soldiers have admitted shooting dead unarmed Palestinian civilians during the Gaza war.

In detailed accounts published by the Israeli media, soldiers also told of the wanton destruction of property during the 22-day conflict with Hamas.
An infantry squad leader described an incident in which a sniper mistakenly shot a Palestinian woman and her two children after the family misunderstood the order of another soldier and turned the wrong direction.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/5016115/Israeli-soldiers-admit-shooting-dead-civilians-during-Gaza-war.html

The Palestinians might use more conventional means if they got Billions in US aid and military hardware. It is a bit hard taking out a main battle tank and attack helicopters with a rock.
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August 17, 2013 11:51am
kowtow

Have I figured out a solution to the Jewish question yet?

They don’t need my help.

They sorted that for themselves back in 1948.Much to their credit.

Mazel tov.
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August 17, 2013 11:51am
Kea

TheContrarian, don’t forget the Indians. Europeans were one of the last major cultural groups to learn to read and write. We have done ok recently, mostly due to higher cultures taking us over, as we have done with the Maori.
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August 17, 2013 11:54am
Kea

kowtow, “they” sorted out nothing. They were given it and to this day receive billions in aid and military support with the US spending trillions fighting proxy wars for them. It you gave the same support to Samoa, they too would be just as strong.

Tell ya what. How about we give the Palestinians a country and the same support and see how things go ?
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August 17, 2013 11:56am
macdee

didn’t Finlayson made reference to the Law Society in his 2nd reading speech on the GCSB bill suggesting that that Harrison’s spouting’s may not truly reflect the LS, anyone know if when Harrison appears at anti GCSB rallies is he speaking for himself or the LS
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August 17, 2013 11:56am
flipper

Reid says …. among other sensible observations:

*** “…But looking back at history the beneficent influence of the Judeo-Christian ethic cannot be denied except by wilful ignorance, and pretending its responsible for our current social conditions is a bit like saying the person who came home and caught the burglar was responsible for the prison sentence the burglar received. ***

Say Reid,
The raptor got hungry and ate his pea brain, did he not? 🙂
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August 17, 2013 12:00pm
flipper

There you go again muggins….
***
muggins (2,533) Says:

August 17th, 2013 at 11:27 am
I reckon that to use the OIA to access correspondence is akin to spying .
However, if a person lets on that have used the act for that purpose that… ” ***

Still talking crap muggins.
You are almost as bad as the would be resident serial liar…. or are you him in drag?

Say muggins, have you not heard of the saying… “he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword”, and variations thereon.

May be you could take your “case” (nut) to pussycat Campbell. 🙂
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August 17, 2013 12:06pm
macdee

Finlayson ‘during’ the 2nd Reading

“I am sorry but the New Zealand Law Society is wrong—the Law Society is wrong.

What is more, more than a few members of the profession—more than a few members—have expressed their concerns to me about the way their submissions were given, by someone who then went to the Mount Albert Memorial Hall and was making all sorts of extravagant comments—someone who used to act for Mr Zaoui—and at the same time was purporting to represent the Law Society.

The thing about the Law Society, to quote a former United States judge, is that it is the bar that makes the statutes, and it is a very important function the Law Society fulfils, to come down to this place to give Governments of all persuasion a good swift kick from time to time, but do so in an impartial and professional way.

Regrettably, the standards were not applied in the case of the submissions on this legislation. There will be more about that later.”
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August 17, 2013 12:06pm
kowtow

Uh oh,here we go again (it gets so boring) ,the Japs and Chinese and Uncle Tom Cobbly had civilisation before the dumb shit Europeans .

So fucking what?

That proves exactly what,we’re cunts?

What it proves is some wankers around here don’t like western civilisation,that’s fine, fuck off then, and bury your shit in the vege garden while you’re fucking off to where ever is so much better.
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August 17, 2013 12:07pm
Kea

kowtow, your reaction to recorded history is very telling. I know it conflicts with your vile book of lies and mythology you put your faith in. With ignorant self absorbed intolerant retards like you polluting the gene pool, it is little wonder Europeans were illiterate barbarians dressed in rotting animal skins while more advanced cultures developed arts and science.

As for the very recent and modest cultural achievements of the West… “So fucking what ? “
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August 17, 2013 12:12pm
TheContrarian

I think you misunderstand what is being discussed here Kowtow.
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August 17, 2013 12:13pm
wikiriwhis business

“But looking back at history the beneficent influence of the Judeo-Christian ethic cannot be denied except by wilful ignorance, ”

The reason we don’t have political assassinations is because this country is so, and hugely, Christian.

The elites though are awake and so are the low decile. The middle class remains in slumber and this is why social justice goes lacking. and why the elites can get away with everything. Even spying on us.

There was actually a computer spying centre opened by the PM this year but still he thinks he needs more surveillance powers

That’s a police state the elites are rubbing their hands about
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August 17, 2013 12:17pm
Kea

I don’t know where maniacs like kowtow get the idea admitting the contributions made by other cultures to humanity is anti-Western. Not only do I think European culture should be proud of its achievements, so do all the Muslims and Asians I have ever met. They admire the Western way. As evidenced by the fact so many choose to come and live in the West. Of course in the twisted god addled, propaganda spouting, mind of folk like kowtow, that is an “invasion” designed to undermine us. It is really rather pathetic !
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August 17, 2013 12:22pm
wikiriwhis business

This is what the wealthy enjoy while the poor are ignored…and it’s all public money

Free Stuff and Great Bargain Adventures for People Over 50

Did you know that the U.S. government is “committed” to distribute more than $1 trillion in money, services, free trips, and other giveaways?

According to our inside source, it’s true!

Despite the budget battles and sequester, that money is still there and has already been allocated. On a percentage basis, every family’s share of the pie comes to around $20,500. What’s more, only 12% of the money in these programs is designated for the poor.

Many people mistakenly believe that you have to be destitute to receive government money and giveaways. However, the truth is that a larger percentage of rich people than poor people are eligible for government money — such as 100% fully paid “cultural exchange” trips to other countries.

Unfortunately, most people don’t even know about the thousands of government-giveaway programs available to them. That’s because most of these programs are funded by Washington but administered through either the states or little-known organizations — and 75% of the programs have no income thresholds.

Of the $1 trillion in free government money given away each year, only about $378 billion is distributed as grants. The rest is distributed as direct payments, venture capital, or special “loans” you do not have to pay back.

You can’t find these programs on Google. Most government officials often don’t even know these programs exist. That’s why many ordinary people miss out — and let the tiny handful of “connected” folks get all the freebies.

Literally BILLIONS in free money and bargain adventures go unclaimed every year!

Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.moneynews.com/MKTNews/Senior-Benefits-Discounts/2013/07/01/id/512858/?promo_code=1415B-1#ixzz2cBL385WW
Urgent: Should Obamacare Be Repealed? Vote Here Now!
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August 17, 2013 12:31pm
publicwatchdog

Did any of the other Mayoral candidates oppose the $UPERCITY from Day One?

http://www.stopthesupercity.org.nz/

It’s not complicated.

The mechanism for the corporate takeover of the Auckland region has been through CCOs.

‘Council Controlled Organisations’ (CCOs), which are actually Corporate Controlled Organisations.

http://www.committeeforauckland.co.nz/membership

CCOs must go.

Council services must come back ‘in-house’, under the ‘public service’ model, and be directly under the control of elected representatives.

Mayoral candidates who are not opposed to CCOs – just don’t get it.

Mayoral candidates who have no or little local government background or experience, arguably cannot be expected to have a good grasp of the real underpinning issues, the problems or the solutions.

As a tradesperson, with Advanced Trade in Sheetmetal Engineering, I understand the concept of ‘doing an apprenticeship’.

When it comes to local government, I have been actively involved as a ‘community activist’ / Public Watchdog, since 1997, when Metrowater was inflicted upon us by Auckland City Council.

Having had thus over 15 years experience, I have ‘done my time’, and am no ‘Johnny come lately’ – meant of course, in a caring way 🙂

Penny Bright

http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz
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August 17, 2013 12:34pm
thedavincimode

Did you pay the cash back water woman?
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August 17, 2013 12:37pm
cha

Gina Rinehart: Sweet Child O’Mines

http://youtu.be/PpdCvBOwuFg
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August 17, 2013 1:02pm
muggins

flipper,
I was just making a point.
You refer to the saying “He who lives by the sword dies by the sword”.
I agree.
So if someone decides to use the OIA to check on my correspondence then they are “living by the sword” are they not?
And although they are not going to actually “die by the sword” through having done that I can use the same act to check on their correspondence, which I have done.
Of course if that person had not released details of one of my emails on kiwiblog I would have never known that they had made a request via the OIA to see that correspondence.
I am no longer complaining about that. The way I now see it is that every cloud has a silver lining.
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August 17, 2013 1:06pm
bereal

When deciding whether or not to appeal the ludicrous sentence handed down to Mark
Packenham by “Justice’ Timothy Brewer Crown law should seek wise counsel from
someone with at least half a brain.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10913336

“Justice’ Brewers sentencing comments may just as well have gone like this.

“Mark, you are a fine man and I accept your version of events without question.
When you injected this woman with meth you were just trying to help and in fact
were acting as a good samaritan. I reject any evidence from her friends that this
was not the first time you had helped her out in such a way.

When she carked it you must have freaked out mate, you must have been stressed out
to the max you poor sod but kept cool and didn’t call for help so I will give you credit for that

No one could blame you for dumping her body, gee, if you had called for help people could
have got the wrong impression. I can understand that.

You did a great job of hiding the body and the car so I will give you credit for that.
You stayed staunch for several years and avoided Justice untill you were tricked by
the wiley police so I will give you credit for that.

It would be unreasonable for the family to expect you to reveal where the body is
I understand that Mark, I agree she should be left to rest in peace where you dumped
her. Aftre all, she was probably equally responsible for what happened to her.

Regarding the charges that you gave two other sheilas the bash with intent to injure
them, it is apparent to me that both of them must have deserved it. You would have
had good reason to bash those slags so I will give you credit for that.

Mark, I could give you life for manslaughter but that would be far too tough for a good
bloke such as yourself so I will reduce it down to 6 years 7 months.

Of course I could impose a non parole period but that would be unfair to a prince such
as you with hardly any previous convictions
You will thus be eligable to apply for parole at the earliest opportunity and I hope that
the parole board will take into account your guilty plea and give you credit for that.

And Mark, when you get out, if you pull this sort of shit again you may get an even stiffer
sentence so please be a good boy from now on.

PS. This POS will be eligable for parole in just over 2 years if this sentence stands.
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August 17, 2013 1:06pm
Fletch

New Snowden revelations show thousands of NSA privacy violations –

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/national/nsa-report-on-privacy-violations-in-the-first-quarter-of-2012/395/?hpid=z1#document/p3/a115760

http://mashable.com/2013/08/16/new-snowden-leak-thousands-nsa-violations/
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August 17, 2013 1:49pm
wikiriwhis business

This is what our dear leader is aiming for

The National Security Agency is funding a “top secret” $60 million dollar data analysis lab at North Carolina State University which will scrutinize information collected from private emails, phone calls and Google searches. http://www.infowars.com/nsa-funds-new-top-secret-60-million-dollar-data-lab/
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August 17, 2013 1:55pm
kowtow

Great to see modern western technology being of assistance to young women from cultures that are so much more advanced than our own.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10246597/Girls-escape-forced-marriage-by-hiding-spoons-in-their-clothes-to-set-off-airport-metal-detectors.html
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August 17, 2013 2:07pm
Bad__Cat

@Kea:
Tell ya what. How about we give the Palestinians a country and the same support and see how things go ?

When Palestine was partitioned in 1948, the Jews were given Israel, the Arabs were given Jordan.
BTW there is no ethnic group or race called Palestinian. They are Arabs
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August 17, 2013 2:21pm
Fletch

A photographer manages to escape with his life (and gets his stolen camera back) after being attacked by a Muslim Brotherhood affiliated mob.

http://animalnewyork.com/2013/this-is-what-it-looks-like-just-before-the-muslim-brotherhood-jumps-you/
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August 17, 2013 2:43pm
kowtow

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/08/egyptian-military-chief-vows-to-rebuild-coptic-churches.html

If any other minority were being persecuted like the Egyptian Copts we’d hear a lot more from the MSM,but as it’s Christians being whacked by Muslims…..nothing to see here.
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August 17, 2013 2:46pm
kowtow

Fletch ,lucky your photographer wasn’t a woman.There’s something very wrong with those Gypos.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/08/201381494941573782.html
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August 17, 2013 3:04pm
Keeping Stock

Penny Bright said

Hi Kiwibloggers – a bit of history 🙂

When I stood for the Water Pressure Group, in the 2000 Avondale/Mt Roskill by-election, following the death of Phil Raffills, we got nearly 6,500 votes.

Came second – about 700 votes behind Noelene Raffills.

Maybe you were up to date with your rates payments way back then Penny. After all, the ratepayers of Avondale/Mt Roskill wouldn’t have supported a rates defaulter, would they?
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August 17, 2013 4:01pm
Kea

If any other minority were being persecuted like the Egyptian Copts we’d hear a lot more from the MSM,but as it’s Christians being whacked by Muslims…..nothing to see here.

You can expect this when fundamentalist Islamic Jihadists gain power. However, they only gained than power due to the support of Obama, who leads the biggest and most powerful Christian country in human history.
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August 17, 2013 4:06pm
Kea

A photographer manages to escape with his life (and gets his stolen camera back) after being attacked by a ~~Muslim Brotherhood~~ Obama affiliated mob.
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August 17, 2013 4:07pm
Kea

When Palestine was partitioned in 1948, the Jews were given Israel, the Arabs were given Jordan.
BTW there is no ethnic group or race called ~~Palestinian.~~ Jews. They are Arabs
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August 17, 2013 4:08pm
Lucia Maria

Rock and roll with a 4.2 that I hardly felt up here on the Kapiti Coast.
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August 17, 2013 4:16pm
Lucia Maria

And another one, much more obvious.
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August 17, 2013 4:23pm
Kea

Lucy, I would pray for you if I thought it would do any good dear 😉
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August 17, 2013 4:23pm
Lucia Maria

I don’t mind them too much, Kea. Nothing near as violent as the ones I experienced when I was a child. But then I’ve never had the house fall down around me.
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August 17, 2013 4:32pm
Kea

Lucy, where did you feel strong quakes as a child ? Or was it a case of the experience being stronger at a young age ?

The chances of being physically harmed by a quake are pretty small. But they can upset our physical world enormously. To me they help focus my mind on the things that really matter, things a quake can not shake.
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August 17, 2013 4:53pm
Lucia Maria

Wellington in the late 70’s. I remember one where everything was jumping up and down for quite a while.
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August 17, 2013 4:59pm
Fletch

BTW there is no ethnic group or race called Palestinian. Jews. They are Arabs

Kea, that is just silly.
Of course there is a Jewish people, language, and culture going back centuries.

However; there is no such thing as a Palestinian people, culture, or language.
‘Palestine’ is just the generalized name given to the region, much like the ‘Antipodes’ describes Australia and New Zealand. There is no such thing as an Antipodean language or people either.
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August 17, 2013 5:04pm
Kea

Fletch, so you believe that Jews are a race and are comfortable attributing certain traits to that race, as you do Muslims ? Interesting ! I would suggest that volk like you have been the cause of much trouble to the Jewish people, unlike those who share my views.

I actually largely agree with you and only extend the definition further. There were many people who shared that bit of dirt and lived together for thousands of years. Only very very recently was it divided into a Jewish state. This was not only wrong but was against Jewish religion. It has no basis in the scripture of the Jewish religion. I am not having a go at the Jews in my posts, merely challenging the double standards I see applied. As an atheist opposed to war I put outcomes before ideology.
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August 17, 2013 5:13pm
Harriet

“…..When Palestine was partitioned in 1948, the Jews were given Israel, the Arabs were given Jordan.
BTW there is no ethnic group or race called Palestinian. Jews. They are Arabs….”

Building sand castles again I see Kea. 😎

Fletch is pretty much right on that Kea: “…..‘Palestine’ is just the generalized name given to the region, much like the ‘Antipodes’ describes Australia and New Zealand. There is no such thing as an Antipodean language or people either….”

“…..To take the second point first. The San Remo Treaty of 1920, in which the victors of the First World War parcelled out the remnants of the defeated Ottoman Empire, created a geographical area called Palestine along both sides of the Jordan River…………….Article 6 of the Palestine Mandate signed by the League of Nations in 1922 stipulated ‘close Jewish settlement’ on the land west of the Jordan River. The river served as the boundary because that year the UK created a new Arab country, today known as Jordan, by unilaterally bestowing the land east of the river onto the Hashemite dynasty and thus giving some three quarters of Palestine away……..”
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August 17, 2013 5:19pm
Kea

Harriet, Israel was created by foreign powers within one life time. The foreign powers determined that people born and bred in Europe, who’s family lived there for generations, had more right to the land than people who had lived there for centuries, all on the basis of the religion they [Jews] invented.

I agreed with Fletch in terms of what Palestine is. It is a made-up place, just like Israel is. And that makes my point.
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August 17, 2013 5:25pm
Manolo

If NZ had one like him. If only.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVPCkqr4Bus
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August 17, 2013 5:28pm
Kea

Presented by a born and bred Jew and featuring Jews. One think I admire about the Jews is their intellectual curiosity and progressive thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKnkDht-al8
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August 17, 2013 5:29pm
Manolo

One think I admire about the Jews is their intellectual curiosity and progressive thought.

Glad you admit it. Now try to find the same among the towel heads: an impossibility!
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August 17, 2013 5:31pm

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