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August 13, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 13 August 2013

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Dennis Horne

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/religious-people-are-less-intelligent-than-atheists-analysis-of-over-63-scientific-studies-stretching-back-over-decades-concludes-8758046.html
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August 13, 2013 8:02am
Jack5

John Campbell – TV3’s Mr Gush – will be talking to lefties through the North Island as he goes on the road this week against the GSCB Bill.

What he won’t be asking Joe and Jane Public is how they feel about the IRD writing off millions of tax debt for TV3’s owner, MediaWorks, as part of the receivership deal. The money could have helped Joe and Jane. Their local schools are being decimated by mad Perata and the bureaucrats high on the latest education craze. Their local hospital needs to be saved. The crowded one-lane state highway bridge needs replaced.

Campbell, the country’s highest profile car salesman (Mazda of course), won’t be asking them whether they want the GSCB to monitor NZ Muslims who have trained at Yemen al qaeda terrorist camps and are happy for the GSCB to have the tools to do this.

Campbell won’t explain that electronic traffic patterns, not mere content of the traffic, gives warning of terrorism. This has been the case since radio was invented a century ago. Before Japanese attacks in the Pacific in World War 2, for example, there would be a build up of their radio traffic. Similarly with terrorists. The pattern and volume of their traffic can give early warning and save lives. Will he ask Joe and Jane whether they want this protection? C’mon….

As with tax matters, Campbell of course won’t be talking about this.

Sadly, no politician questions IRD’s part in the MediaWorks tax deal. Are they scared of Mr Gush? The MediaWorks deal, which softens the losses or wipes them out of such world financiers as J.P.Morgan, reputedly is costing NZ taxpayers tens of millions in lost taxes. As Minister of Revenue, Peter Dunne must have had some say in the IRD decision to forgo taxes for the receivership. (The IRD always has priority in debt.)

If Mr Gush pops his head out the window of a red Mazda near you today and shoves a microphone towards you, remind him you are indirectly paying some of his wages, and ask him how he would protect you from al qaeda.
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August 13, 2013 8:04am
Pete George

David Shearer was in Dunedin yesterday with his minder David Parker. They staged a media stunt during the day with a person who can’t afford to pay their power bill, the visit was to push NZ Power.

There was a promotional meeting after work so I went along for a look, hoping to see if Shearer was better in person in mostly friendly (very Labour) company.

He was a bit more fluent, but he confirmed my impressions he’s simply not up to it. Anything he was unsure about he looked to Parker for help.

And it was all so negative. The audience asked questions, answers were mostly avoided. It was quite depressing and sad to see the possible future leaders of government looking out of their depth.

I wasn’t really surprised (a bit hopeful perhaps), but David Shearer disappoints in Dunedin.
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August 13, 2013 8:07am
kowtow

Campbell is a left wing activist (he’s said as much himself) masquerading as a journalist.
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August 13, 2013 8:08am
Jack5

Pete George: what’s going on with United Future’s name change?

“United” is fairly bland. Note the US Republican Party’s use of the elephant as a symbol. The possum is linked in many minds with Peter Dunne. Why not build on this.

Start with a slogan and work back to a title.

From possums, why not for a slogan: our bite is better than their bark? Or, our bite beats their bark?
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August 13, 2013 8:22am
Jack5

Pete George:

For “United Future”, the next step from the slogan, the title. Would “Barkers Party” be a bit short? “Debarkers” then?
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August 13, 2013 8:30am
Rick Rowling

John Campbell on a nationwide Hikoi to rustle up opposition to Government policy.

Has he finally gone full-Minto?
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August 13, 2013 8:33am
nasska

Jack5

We could join forces & do the launch for the new brand. You bring the possum…..I’ll supply the headlights. 🙂
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August 13, 2013 8:34am
leftyliberal

@Rick Rowling: Or maybe it’s the policy he’s against, and the party introducing it is a coincidence?

Nah, instead of arguing for the shitty policy, just call him names instead.
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August 13, 2013 8:37am
Jack5

Good one Nasska (8.34).

We’ll throw in a good advertising slogan for them: “Absolutely barking!”
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August 13, 2013 8:39am
Griff

There is no balance in the Campbell live reporting.

Footage of face paint and his mates in extreme postures, random guns, terrorist atrocity’s from around the world. guy with his leg blown off from Boston.

Oh but they might monitor me!

Welcome to 2013.

Every one is smeging monitoring you.
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August 13, 2013 8:51am
Ed Snack

Interesting from the Australian election. The first debate between Rudd and Abbott was marked by Rudd bringing in and reading from some fairly extensive notes despite the “rules” of the debate banning the use of notes in that way. Now part of the Labor smear machine (GetUp) has released photo’s claiming that Abbott also used notes…but somehow omitted to say that the photo’s were actually from 2010 in a debate held under different rules, where notes were allowed.

How dishonest can you get, and is it possible that Rudd is gone already ?
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August 13, 2013 8:57am
flipper

Would it not be wonderful if we could have J Key appoint a Royal Commission to examine all aspects of New Zealand’s MSM, and to make recommendations for the elimination of bias?

Perhaps we could have a “Campbellkoi” to demand that J Key move to appoint the RC?

If Smalley takes her incompetence, arrogance , talk-over tactics and bias, to Newstalk ZB I expect Leighton Smith to resign in protest…..or show her the error of her ways. 🙂
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August 13, 2013 8:58am
Kea

Religious people are less intelligent than atheists, analysis of over 63 scientific studies stretching back over decades concludes
Study found ‘a reliable negative relation between intelligence and religiosity’ in 53 out of 63 studies

Dennis Horne, studies have also shown atheists have better knowledge of religion than Christians. A fact clearly demonstrated here on KB many times. 🙂
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August 13, 2013 9:00am
Rick Rowling

Leftyliberal – it’s not about arguing against a policy, it’s taking an ENTIRE WEEK to do so, plus effectively collecting signatures a.k.a. the Greebour “keep our assets” petition.

Full-Minto isn’t just name calling, he genuinely is behaving like the Mana Party.
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August 13, 2013 9:16am
kowtow

Whether you’re religious or not I care not in the least.

Christianity is a huge part of our culture,history and traditions ,so it matters massively.

Keep your hands off my culture ,you might not care about your culture but I do.
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August 13, 2013 9:19am
Manolo

UnitedFuture changing its name is akin to the whore Dunne looking for a new street corner where to sell his tired body.
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August 13, 2013 9:21am
Kea

kowtow, it is not “your” culture. It was inflicted on Europe by a nutty Roman ruler who joined a bronze age desert cult from the Middle East. It is no more your culture than Islam is.
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August 13, 2013 9:29am
jcuk

“The era of the lawn in the West is over.”
PAUL ROBBINS, director of the Nelson Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of Wisconsin, on efforts to discourage lawns in the Southwest because of dwindling water supplies. ]NYT]
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August 13, 2013 9:31am
Kea

from the Christian Science Monitor

In US, atheists know religion better than believers.

For a highly religious people, Americans have plenty of room to improve their knowledge of religion, according to a new survey that’s stirring debate about the health of faith in America.

The US Religious Knowledge Survey, released Tuesday from the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, found atheists and agnostics know more basic facts about the Bible than either Protestants or Catholics. Among the other findings:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2010/0928/In-US-atheists-know-religion-better-than-believers.-Is-that-bad
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August 13, 2013 9:32am
Pete George

I think it’s worth simplifying the name but I don’t see any point in changing it completely. People don’t vote for party names.

Many people hardly know MP names. I was talking to three people in the weekend with an average-ish interest in politics. I mentioned ‘Grant Robertson’. One thought he was an MP who came from Dunedin, they other two said “Who?” Two couldn’t name their own electorate MP.

Beyond party leaders and a few prominent ministers there is not a lot of name recognition outside political enthusiasts.
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August 13, 2013 9:34am
kowtow

kea has a very rude habit of lecturing other posters.Now he’s telling me what my culture is.

Kiwi vernacular , “Fuck off”.

That’s Germanic,also part of my culture.
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August 13, 2013 9:36am
dime

“People don’t vote for party names.” – lol umm ok
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August 13, 2013 9:40am
Kea

kowtow, it is no use getting angry at me for posting the results of properly conducted studies and articles from The Christian Science Monitor !

The opinions of people who believe earth was created in 7 days by a mythical being are not that reliable. Especially when the science suggests they are not that bright anyway and do not understand their own primitive cult as well as sane people do.
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August 13, 2013 9:40am
dime

Front page of the Herald.

The rock thrower with her quote “im fucking stoked”.

You stay classy Herald!
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August 13, 2013 9:43am
WineOh

Incidentally- Carl Hayman earning $68K per month playing for Toulon in France.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/9034118/Hayman-a-top-earner-in-France

And we wonder why we are having an exodus from Super-15 teams overseas, and the requests for ‘sabbatical’ becoming common. I would!
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August 13, 2013 9:47am
Pete George

Which other parties could be renamed to something more appropriate?

National Chumps
Labouring Under Illusions
Watermelons
Hard Act to Follow
Winston First, Foremost, Winston Winston Winston
Part Maori Elite
Socialist Manamana
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August 13, 2013 9:58am
Scott Chris

what’s going on with United Future’s name change?

How about a resurrection of The Whigs?
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August 13, 2013 9:59am
flipper

Pete George (18,862) Says:
August 13th, 2013 at 9:34 am
I think it’s worth simplifying the name but I don’t see any point in changing it completely. People don’t vote for party names.
…. on UF….***

Say, PG…
Can you update us on where UF ‘s re-registration process is at? Please.
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August 13, 2013 10:03am
Tauhei Notts

Jack5 at 8.04.
Could you please provide a link to that TV3 tax write off. What you write has put my bullshit detectors upon alert. If what you write is totally correct then that would explain the pungent smell about this matter.
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August 13, 2013 10:04am
nickb

Which other parties could be renamed to something more appropriate?

I am glad you didn’t put Disunited Future in there. You seem to be finally accepting they are not legally a party.
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August 13, 2013 10:06am
graham

In US, atheists know religion better than believers.

Doesn’t surprise me, and it may well be the same here in New Zealand. Although I do have one friend who is undertaking Biblical Hebrew studies to put that imbalance right in his own small way. 🙂

However, for me personally (and, I suspect, many other Christians), knowledge of Christianity is more important than a knowledge of religion. There is a big difference between being a Christian, and following a religion. Indeed, the two may have very little to do with each other for some (many?) people.
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August 13, 2013 10:07am
Pete George

flipper – the public consultation period on (ironically) the party name finished last Saturday. Unless someone disputed the name then the re-registration is expected to be announced in the next week or two.
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August 13, 2013 10:27am
kowtow

Multiculturalism and mass immigration ,it brings such benefits to the boring West.Inflicted by “progressive” politicians.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10238174/Number-of-UK-attacks-involving-acid-and-other-corrosive-substances-soars.html
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August 13, 2013 10:32am
Pete George

An update to the previous post, NZ Herald has just announced:

A decision is imminent on United Future’s status as a political party.

The Electoral Commission has finished consultation over the party’s application to have its formal status confirmed, with no public comments on it received.

The Electoral Commission’s board is due to consider United Future’s application this week with a decision expected to be announced.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10911852

To their credit the Electoral Commission has been progressing this as fast as their procedures have allowed them to.
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August 13, 2013 10:35am
Lucia Maria

I just did the Pew Forum test on religions. Got 31/32, ie. 97%. It’s a very, very basic test requiring general knowledge about a number of the major religions, including Mormonism and something called The Great Awakening, which I never heard of, so I guessed those answers and got them right. I’m good at guessing.

To conclude that “atheists know religion better than believers” from that test is to ascribe to the test far more than what it actually tested for.
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August 13, 2013 10:46am
Ryan Sproull

To conclude that “atheists know religion better than believers” from that test is to ascribe to the test far more than what it actually tested for.

People who are not the default religion in a society generally have to had thought about religion more. It doesn’t mean that no people who are in the default religion have given it any thought.
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August 13, 2013 10:50am
Manolo

Aiding terror: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2389173/Al-Qaeda-terrorists-Somalia-pillaged-480-000-worth-British-aid-raid-contractors-delivering-humanitarian-supplies.html
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August 13, 2013 10:56am
wikiriwhis business

Anyone hear about this ????

Australian Government charged with Treason

High ranking members of the Australian Government including Kevin Rudd, Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott are facing charges of treason in the Australian Federal Court.

The prosecution was brought against Rudd and Abbott as well as the Australian Electoral Commission by Brian Shaw after the Oath of Allegiance and reference to the British Crown were removed from Australian laws.
– See more at: http://dnews.co.nz/node/26#sthash.RUS5aa0Y.dpuf
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August 13, 2013 11:01am
wikiriwhis business

New Zealand’s Prime Minister John Key is facing prosecution in court after it was revealed his department spied on more than 80 New Zealanders illegally.

The head of the New Zealand Private Prosecution Service Graham McCready has filed charges against Mr Key and GCSB head Ian Fletcher, under the Crimes Act.

McCready said that under the Act “everyone is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years who intentionally intercepts any private communication by means of an interception device”.

Wellington District Court deputy registrar Kevin Conroy has acknowledged the informations.

“I now have to consider the matter of the issue of summonses under the provisions of the Summary Procedures Act 1957,” he said.
– See more at: http://dnews.co.nz/comment/1#comment-1
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August 13, 2013 11:03am
Pete George

Someone was mean to DPF on Twitter – there’s been a “things Wellingtonians never say” thread running, like:

Helene Ritchie would make a great city Councillor
I can’t wear that. Everyone will think I’m a hipster
I love that people use the waterfront as a cycle lane
Having an umbrella is so useful in Wellington
I never honk in the Mt Vic tunnel

Dave Armstrong ‏@malosilima

It’s David Farrar’s shout #thingswellingtoniansneversay

And Keeping Stock twisted the knife.
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August 13, 2013 11:05am
Keeping Stock

Pete George said

Which other parties could be renamed to something more appropriate?

National Chumps
Labouring Under Illusions
Watermelons
Hard Act to Follow
Winston First, Foremost, Winston Winston Winston
Part Maori Elite
Socialist Manamana

How about United With Myself, and No Bloody Future?
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August 13, 2013 11:06am
Keeping Stock

@ Pete George (11.05am) – I’m still waiting for DPF to buy the second round from two years ago 😀
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August 13, 2013 11:08am
Lucia Maria

Ryan, yeah, that’s right.
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August 13, 2013 11:15am
Kea

and something called The Great Awakening, which I never heard of

Oh the irony Lucy 🙂
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August 13, 2013 11:15am
Kea

kowtow, before spouting off about the Muslims, you may want to research the horrors inflicted on Europe by that other imported religion – Christianity.
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August 13, 2013 11:19am
Fletch

Kea, such as?
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August 13, 2013 11:27am
Lucia Maria

This should be good.
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August 13, 2013 11:29am
wikiriwhis business

The IRS has refused to answer Congressman Jeff Duncan’s question on why IRS agents are training with semi-automatic AR-15′s designed for “standoff capability,” the same weapons used by US troops in Afghanistan. http://www.infowars.com/irs-refuses-to-answer-congressman-on-ar-15s-for-standoff-capability/
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August 13, 2013 11:31am
Kea

Kea, such as?

Fletch are you joking or are you really that pig ignorant of your history ? Millions died hideous deaths, with a level of calculated depravity rarely seen in human history.
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August 13, 2013 11:38am
Fletch

Kea, oh really?
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August 13, 2013 11:42am
Kea

Have read about your church you disgusting sick religious cretins.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican29.htm#The Tortures

http://www.listaholic.com/12-of-the-most-horrifying-torture-devices-in-history.html
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August 13, 2013 11:43am
Fletch

Kea, the link looks fairly one-sided to me.
How long did it take you to google for that?
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August 13, 2013 11:46am
Kea

“Kea, oh really?”

Fletch you disgust me. It is unfortunate there is no hell for you to rot in. To sit there and deny this ever happened in order to defend your vile cult, is about as low as I have seen anyone go on KB.
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August 13, 2013 11:48am
Kea

Fletch, search your own links or pop down the library.

Better still, sit in the corner and drink a bottle of bleach.
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August 13, 2013 11:49am
Fletch

Kea, precisely what is the ‘what’ you are referring to?
You are being a bit general. The Church hasn’t always been perfect and I readily admit to any of its historical wrongdoings.
But which are you particularly talking about at the moment that you want me to answer for?

You can’t make an overarching statement like “Millions died hideous deaths” and expect me to know.

One at a time please.
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August 13, 2013 11:52am
Kea

The church has never been perfect. Only the depths of sadistic depravity it plummets to have varied.

Most people have no idea just how much death and misery your cult has inflicted. I find reading about it too distressing myself and it really upsets me.
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August 13, 2013 11:57am
Jack5

Re Tauhei Notts at 10.04:

Information as requested.

The IRD is always first in priority for repayment in a receivership (with a few small others such as unpaid wages). In the receivership, about $600 million of debt is being written off.

The arrangement would not have been possible without the agreement of the IRD.

Here are references for your “bullshit detector”.

According to the Hooerald, the loss to the IRD is $22 million.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10891114

Labour criticises this as a tax dodge Otago Daily Times (/i>

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/business/261573/mediaworks-tax-dodge-alleged

NZ First’s Winston Peters on the $22m tax debt:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1306/S00309/mediaworks-how-crony-capitalism-works-peters.htm

John Drinnan, of the Hooerald, on the receivership and the writing off of hundreds of millions of debt (which of course includes the IRD’s):

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10891064

NZ taxpayers likely to lose millions:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/8804077/MediaWorks-to-dispute-tax-payment

From the NBR:

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/mediaworks-receivership-ck-141604

and

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/mediaworks-lenders-box-seat-ironbridge-out-cold-wb-141625
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August 13, 2013 12:00pm
Fletch

Kea, as I have said before – there have been many more people who have died at the hands of atheism that of the Church.
I can only refer you to an article that attempts to add up all the numbers – the Inquistions, Crusades, witch hunts etc, vs Atheist regimes. If you look at it purely in terms of the numbers, yes, people were killed in the name of religion who weren’t following what that religion taught (as opposed to Islam).

Now for the facts.

Let’s take the Salem Witchcraft Trials. Apparently, between June and September of 1692 five men and fourteen women were eventually convicted and hanged because English law called for the death penalty for witchcraft (which, incidentally, was the same as the Old Testament). During this time there were over 150 others that were imprisoned. Things finally ended in September 1692 when Governor William Phipps dissolved the court because his wife had been accused. He said enough of this insanity. It was the colony’s leading minister, by the way, who finally ended the witch hunt in 1693 and those that remained in prison were released. The judge that was presiding over the trials publicly confessed his guilt in 1697. By the way , it’s interesting to note that this particular judge was very concerned about the plight of the American Indian and was opposed to slavery. These are views that don’t sit well with the common caricature of the radical Puritans in the witch hunt. In 1711 the colonies legislatures made reparation to the heirs of the victims. They annulled the convictions.

I guess the point is that there was a witch hunt. It was based on theological reasons, but it wasn’t to the extent that is usually claimed. I think last week the caller said it was millions and millions that were burned at the stake as witches. It certainly wasn’t the case in this country. It seemed that the witch hunt was a result of theological misapplication and the people who were involved were penitent. The whole witch hunt lasted only a year. Sixteen people were hanged in New England for witchcraft prior to 1692. In the 1692 witch hunt nineteen were executed. So you’ve got thirty-five people. One hundred fifty imprisoned. This is not at all to diminish or minimize the impact of the American witch hunts which resulted in thirty-five deaths. But thirty-five is not millions. It is not hundreds of thousands. It’s not even hundreds. It’s thirty-five. This was not genocide.

Now in Europe it was a little different. Joan of Arc was burned at the stake for practicing witchcraft in 1431. Over a period of 300 years, from 1484 to 1782, the Christian church put to death 300,000 women accused of witchcraft, about 1000 per year. Again, I don’t want to minimize the impact of 1000 lives lost a year, but here we’re talking about a much, much smaller number over a long period of time than what has been claimed in the past.

In America we’re talking thirty-five people. In Europe over 300 years, we’re talking about 300,000. Not millions. The sources here are World Book Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Americana. You can also read in Newsweek, August 31, 1992. I was accused of being a liar last week. I’m trying to give you the facts from reputable sources that show that the accusations from last week aren’t accurate.

There were two Inquisitions. One of them began right around the end of the first millennium in 1017. It began as an attempt to root out heretics and occurred chiefly in France, Germany, Italy and Spain. The Spanish Inquisition followed in the fourteenth century and was much bloodier. It began as a feudal aristocracy which forced religious values on society. Jews were caught in the middle of this and many of them were killed. About 2000 executions took place. The Inquisition that took place at the turn of the millennium, less than that. So we’re talking about thousands of people, not millions.

There were actually seven different Crusades and tens of thousands died in them. Most of them were a misdirected attempt to free the Holy Land. Some weren’t quite like that. There were some positive aspects to them, but they were basically an atrocity over a couple hundred years. The worst was the Children’s Crusade. All of the children who went to fight died along the way. Some were shipwrecked and the rest were taken into slavery in Egypt.

A blight on Christianity? Certainty. Something wrong? Dismally wrong. A tragedy? Of course. Millions and millions of people killed? No. The numbers are tragic, but pale in comparison to the statistics of what non-religion criminals have committed.

My point is not that Christians or religions people aren’t to vulnerable to terrible crimes. Certainly they are. But it is not religion that produces these things; it is the denial of Biblical religion that generally leads to this kind of things. The statistics that are the result of irreligious genocide stagger the imagination.

My source is The Guinness Book of World Records. Look up the category “Judicial” and under the subject of “Crimes: Mass Killings,” the greatest massacre ever imputed by the government of one sovereign against the government of another is 26.3 million Chinese during the regime of Mao Tse Tung between the years of 1949 and May 1965. The Walker Report published by the U.S. Senate Committee of the Judiciary in July 1971 placed the parameters of the total death toll in China since 1949 between 32 and 61.7 million people. An estimate of 63.7 million was published by Figaro magazine on November 5, 1978.

In the U.S.S.R. the Nobel Prize winner, Alexander Solzhenitsyn estimates the loss of life from state repression and terrorism from October 1917 to December 1959 under Lenin and Stalin and Khrushchev at 66.7 million.

Finally, in Cambodia (and this was close to me because I lived in Thailand in 1982 working with the broken pieces of the Cambodian holocaust from 1975 to 1979) “as a percentage of a nation’s total population, the worst genocide appears to be that in Cambodia, formerly Kampuchea. According to the Khmer Rouge foreign minister, more than one third of the eight million Khmer were killed between April 17, 1975 and January 1979. One third of the entire country was put to death under the rule of Pol Pott, the founder of the Communist Part of Kampuchea. During that time towns, money and property were abolished. Economic execution by bayonet and club introduced for such offenses as falling asleep during the day, asking to too many questions, playing non-communist music, being old and feeble, being the offspring of an undesirable, or being too well educated. In fact, deaths in the Tuol Sleng interrogation center in Pnom Penh, which is the capitol of Kampuchea, reached 582 in a day.”

Then in Chinese history of the thirteenth to seventeenth centuries there were three periods of wholesale massacre. The numbers of victims attributed to these events are assertions rather than reliable estimates. The figures put on the Mongolian invasion of northern China form 1210 to 1219 and from 1311 to 1340 are both on the order of 35 million people. While the number of victims of bandit leader Chang Hsien-chung, known as the Yellow Tiger, from 1643 to 1647 in the Siechuan province has been put at 40 million people.

China under Mao Tse Tung, 26.3 million Chinese. According the Walker Report, 63.7 million over the whole period of time of the Communist revolution in China. Solzhenitsyn says the Soviet Union put to death 66.7 million people. Kampuchea destroyed one third of their entire population of eight million Cambodians. The Chinese at two different times in medieval history, somewhere in the vicinity of 35 million and 40 million people. Ladies and gentlemen, make note that these deaths were the result of organizations or points of view or ideologies that had left God out of the equation. None of these involve religion. And all but the very last actually assert atheism.

It seems to me that my colleague Dennis Prager’s illustration cannot be improved upon to show the self-evident capability of Biblical religion to restrain evil. He asks this in this illustration. If you were walking down a dark street at night in the center of Los Angeles and you saw ten young men walking towards you, would you feel more comfortable if you knew that they had just come from a Bible class? Of course, the answer is certainly you would. That demonstrates that religion, and Biblical religion in particular, is a mitigator of evil in the world.

It is true that it’s possible that religion can produce evil, and generally when we look closer at the detail it produces evil because the individual people are actually living in a rejection of the tenants of Christianity and a rejection of the God that they are supposed to be following. So it can produce it, but the historical fact is that outright rejection of God and institutionalizing of atheism actually does produce evil on incredible levels. We’re talking about tens of millions of people a result of the rejection of God.

http://www.str.org/articles/the-real-murderers-atheism-or-christianity

Yes, many people died at the hands of those who claim they were following Church teaching or the Bible (but actually weren’t), but they weren’t in their millions. They were perhaps hundreds of thousands. We have to look to atheist regimes for millions killed.

ps, I can break this down further by looking at the “witch hunts” if you want (in which more people were killed by secular authorities and protestants than ‘The Church’), but this is enough to begin with.

It actually upsets me that you go off spouting these kinds of figures and that you believe the things you say you do without facts.
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August 13, 2013 12:11pm
Viking2

Why do 13-year-old girls suddenly decide they hate their mothers, or well-bred little boys turn into tattooed swill or mass murderers?

Take recent news items.

Gareth Morgan, for example, is visiting the Korean demilitarised zone to bring peace and unification to the two Koreas. Given his exceptionalism in all things, he will doubtless succeed. He can then ride westward and settle the 60 years stand-off between India and Pakistan, devising a cure for cancer on the way. Having achieved that, the Israeli-Palestinian standoff awaits his input. He will receive a great reception, that region having form in succumbing to self-proclaimed messiahs. Gareth can culminate his peace tour by riding triumphantly into Cairo on his male mid-life crisis-symbolic Harley Davidson, and bring mutual love to the warring factions. My God they’re lucky buggers.

.http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10911584
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August 13, 2013 12:20pm
Pete George

This was quick:

Registration of United Future Party

On 13 August 2013 the Electoral Commission determined an application made under Part 4 of the Electoral Act 1993 to register the following political party:

Party: United Future New Zealand

Abbreviation: United Future

The Electoral Commission determined that the party be registered in accordance with section 67 of the Electoral Act 1993. The Register of Political Parties has been updated accordingly.

This should give the rebuilding a boost. The only party with confirmed membership this term.
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August 13, 2013 12:21pm
Kea

Fletch , those people were no killed by atheist regimes. They were killed to advance socialism not atheism. You have been told this numerous times.

The people you people have so cruelly murdered were killed in the name of god. Big difference.
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August 13, 2013 12:24pm
Kea

Oh and Fletch, do you really think an atheist is stupid enough to buy that line that Christians who do wrong are not being Christians ? It is a disingenuous and transparent attempt to avoid responsibility for your wrongs. Why do you not say Mao was not following atheist doctrine ?

Remember the extensive study Dennis linked to ? Do not assume we are as thick as you are, or as dishonest.
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August 13, 2013 12:30pm
kowtow

Christians?

Even a brief perusal of the news shows how intolerant and violent they are….

another massacre in Nigeria,continual car bombings in Iraq,mayhem in Pakistan,Syria and Afghanistan,books burned in Mali.

All done in the name of Jesus Christ……..not.
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August 13, 2013 12:32pm
Kea

kowtow, all done in the name of the exact same god as yours. Why do you distance yourself from your fellow grovelers to imaginary beings ?
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August 13, 2013 12:34pm
Scott Chris

Have to say, I much prefer PG’s prolificness to Kea’s endless trolling.

Just ignore the bitter old fuck.
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August 13, 2013 12:38pm
dime

kea – you have been painful this week. whats going on?

Talk to Dr Dime!

Did we bomb your home town or something this week?
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August 13, 2013 12:44pm
thedavincimode

Thanks for the update Penny. I was waiting on the edge of my seat. There is no doubt that the registration was fair, reasonable, and sensible thing to do. This will enable middle NZ to sleep easy tonight.
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August 13, 2013 12:52pm
nasska

I don’t know whether Kea’s right or wrong but at least he can put forward a viewpoint without cutting & pasting half the bloody content of the internet onto GD.
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August 13, 2013 12:57pm
Pete George

thedavincimode – the fact that it happened – yes. The way that it happened – not as much. Dunne wants to address this:

“I am therefore drafting a Member’s Bill to provide for the acceptance of online party memberships as legitimate for party registration purposes, and for a separate re-registration procedure for established registered parties that deregister, and seek fresh registration within a specified period of time.

“My Bill will also require the Electoral Commission to formally audit the membership of all registered parties once every three years, unlike the current situation where the membership of registered parties is never checked by the Commission,” he says.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1308/S00213/dunne-welcomes-unitedfutures-re-registration.htm

It would be interesting to see which parties would support the once-per-term audit of membership. That’s something would affect UF as much as any other party.
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August 13, 2013 12:57pm
Kea

dime (7,014) Says:
August 13th, 2013 at 12:44 pm
kea – you have been painful this week. whats going on?

Talk to Dr Dime!

Did we bomb your home town or something this week?

dime, you try having five wives and five lots of in-laws smart arse 😉
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August 13, 2013 1:00pm
Manolo

The monomaniacal rants on Dunne, UF & GCSB continue apace. God help KB.
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August 13, 2013 1:04pm
nickb

Nice to see Peter Dunne’s pissy little sook over the trouble it took him to re-register his “party”.

It was obviously too much for him to understand that a process needed to be followed given he had not complied with the law and fraudulently claimed money he was not entitled to.

Oh well. Given he always acts in a manner which is fair, reasonable and sensible I guess we can trust him to comply with the law moving forwards.
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August 13, 2013 1:08pm
Kea

Russian Jews outraged after Stephen Fry compared gay propaganda ban to Nazi Germany

The move was in response to a recently adopted Russian law which prohibits the propaganda of homosexuality among minors.

Wow. Two perpetually outraged groups all in one sentence. I wonder how gay black disabled jews feel ? Mind you, they are gods special chosen ones, because they said so.

http://rt.com/news/russia-jews-fry-comment-396/
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August 13, 2013 1:11pm
kowtow

Kea’s Syrian background to the fore…….

likes Muzzies and Nazis ,hates Jews ,queers and Christians.
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August 13, 2013 1:14pm
kowtow

but nasska cuts and pastes all his jokes….very unfunny.
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August 13, 2013 1:15pm
Tauhei Notts

Jack5 at midday.
Thank you for being so kind as to post those links. The Tax man is a preferred creditor for PAYE and GST, but not for income tax.
But note how suppliers will not be out of pocket but the Tax man will be. This has voidable preference written all over it.
And all politicians except the cunning hori leave the matter alone.
It is posts like yours that help make this the best blog site. Without your contributions people like me would be unaware of this great big fucking rort. The acronym for Caring Understanding Nineties Types would be what I would use to describe participants in this matter.
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August 13, 2013 1:16pm
Manolo

Madder by the day:
California Gov. Jerry Brown signed a controversial bill into law Monday afternoon allowing the state’s transgender public school students to choose which bathrooms they use and whether they participate in boy or girl sports.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/08/12/california-gov-brown-signs-transgender-student-bill/
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August 13, 2013 1:22pm
thedavincimode

Penny George

That’s interesting. So let’s just put Dunney’s proposal into context. Unlike other parties (including the hopelessly impractical melons) No Future was unable to comply with simple and fundamental administrative procedures and, as a consequence, ceased to be registered. Dunney is now employing Parliament’s drafting services to draft a Bill that will then consume further time in the chamber and in select committee. In a transparent attempt to deflect attention from his own party’s ineptitude and his public snivelling to the effect that he could have got away without coming clean, he is proposing audits of party membership.

Is he proposing any law changes that will compel the release of emails by Ministers when they are involved in allegations of leaking reports or details thereof to the press?
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August 13, 2013 1:31pm
Kea

kowtow, I am opposed to all religion and are indifferent to queers. I hate the religion, but not religious people, even wankers like you 🙂
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August 13, 2013 1:32pm
Pete George

“Is he proposing any law changes that will compel the release of emails by Ministers”

Maybe Ministers will be more concerned – oh wait, they are, the Government may have that covered in their Inquiries Bill – http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/08/the_inquiries_bill.html
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August 13, 2013 1:38pm
dime

“dime, you try having five wives and five lots of in-laws smart arse ”

no one can help you with that!

you allowed to beat the in laws? or just the wives?
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August 13, 2013 1:43pm
Pete George

employing Parliament’s drafting services to draft a Bill that will then consume further time in the chamber and in select committee.

I understood that that was one of the primary processes of Parliament. Do you only want time spent on legislation you agree with?

You not only want to be the arbiter of who can comment on what here, you also want to be the legislative dictator?
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August 13, 2013 1:46pm
dime

Dan Carter has strained a calf muscle.. out for 4 weeks..

I think the 6 month break will do him the world of good. Probably needed a year off.
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August 13, 2013 1:50pm
Manolo

Have a laugh. He’s sacred, holy, and untouchable: http://news.yahoo.com/mo-state-fair-bans-rodeo-clown-mocked-obama-183933790.html
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August 13, 2013 1:55pm
graham

Maybe Peter Dunne can save some resources, thedavincimode, and get some legislation drafted at the same time to address those nasty hidden speed cameras that he ranted about in April.

Apparently he was “speaking for all motorists” (did you know that Dunne speaks for you, and knows how you feel?) when he said “I think being treated as almost criminals, as the police seem to imply, is a bit ridiculous.” Hell yeah, I strongly object to being treated as an “almost” criminal (whatever that is), just for the laughable silly little act of, ummm, breaking the law.
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August 13, 2013 2:03pm
Longknives

For Manolo-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdfPflYOJmU

Imagine the howls of outrage if they portrayed ‘The Messiah’ as a bankrobber.
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August 13, 2013 2:04pm
thedavincimode

You not only want to be the arbiter of who can comment on what here, you also want to be the legislative dictator?

You’re pouting again.
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August 13, 2013 2:23pm
Kea

Fletch , I rather enjoyed your little rant about communism. You are aware that Marx & Trotsky were both Jews aren’t you ? In fact you will find Jews behind all of the liberal progressive changes that seem to upset you so much. They are a very liberal and intellectual cultural group with huge influence in the West.

You have way more in common with the more earthy and conservative Muslims, who live to this day in the lands of the bible fable.
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August 13, 2013 3:14pm
bereal

Some kids may find this an interseting clip,

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130807-60-facts-about-our-awesome-world

even some big kids.

(Definition of an adult, a kid in a big body.)
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August 13, 2013 3:17pm
thedavincimode

graham

The predictable news is that Dunney appears to be expecting the taxpayers to pick up the tab for this by foisting membership audits onto the Electoral Commission.

Any even half-principled proponent of such a change would simply require registered parties to produce their own audit certificate to the Electoral Commission leaving parties to have their audits conducted at their own cost by private accounting firms. And if he was actually serious about principles underlying oversight of political parties, rather than simply responding to his party’s own ineptitude and his regret at having complied with his legal obligations, he would also be tossing something into the pot to ensure that electoral breaches were pursued seriously rather than the long suffering victim of these troughing jokesters coping it up the chute from that direction also.
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August 13, 2013 4:01pm
bereal

Any unbiased layman can look at the crime scene photo of the two lines on Robin Bains right
thumb and notice that they are not reproduced on the autopsy fingerprint.

That same unbiased laymen would conclude that were those two lines on the thumb in the
photo really cuts or scratches (as some have suggested ) then they would not have disapeared
(healed) in the time from the crime scene to the autopsy.

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/testing-underway-robin-bain-s-fingerprints-gun-5532098

Of course, nothing will change the mind of some that David was the killer, not Robin.
Therefore they have to invent reasons why those two lines are apparent on Robins thumb other
than the obvious that they were caused when he loaded or reloaded the magazine.

Not wanting to open the whole can of worms before the results of the new investigation are in, but.
i note that those pundits who are most strident that David is guilty never come up with a motive for
him.

If i am wrong about that, then what was Davids motive for killing his family ?
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August 13, 2013 5:06pm
Don the Kiwi

Seems our resident muslim is in fine form today
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August 13, 2013 5:31pm
wat dabney

Fletch,

“as I have said before – there have been many more people who have died at the hands of atheism that of the Church.”

Er, the perpetrators also didn’t believe in Santa Claus. Using your logic, not believing in Santa Claus led them to commit atrocities.

They didn’t believe in the Tooth Fairy. So is it not believing in the Tooth Fairy that leads people into Christian-style barbarity?

The list, of course, is endless.

Not believing in pixies at the bottom of the garden is motivation to butcher people in Christian-style massacres.

But perhaps if you were actually capable of constructing a logical argument then you wouldn’t believe in magic pixies in the first place:

‘A meta-analysis of 63 studies showed a significant negative association between intelligence and religiosity.’

http://psr.sagepub.com/content/early/2013/08/02/1088868313497266
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August 13, 2013 5:38pm
Kea

Don I tried to change the subject to political systems by mentioning the Jews Marx & Trotsky, whos poisonous ideas were the catalyst for the most murderous and evil regimes in modern history. Their views infect Western society like a cancer to this day. But strangely people who usually enjoy attacking religious groups, and atheists, go all funny and quiet about that one.
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August 13, 2013 5:40pm
bhudson

Dunney is now employing Parliament’s drafting services to draft a Bill that will then consume further time in the chamber and in select committee.

FWIW, I don’t think Dunne gets to using the drafting services for his private member’s Bill – those services are for Government Bills, or for non-govt Bills that the Attorney-General has given permission for the drafting service to work on.

(Of course there is a chance that the AG might give some of his expensive and time-constrained resources to help draft a Bill that has no practical relevance for the govt.)
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August 13, 2013 5:46pm
Kea

bereal, as someone who has loaded many thousands of rounds into 22 mags, I can tell you that photo shows no such thing. Those marks are just splits in the skin that many people have. Most old guys who do manual work will have the same, even if they have never touched a gun in their lives.

David did it because he is a little freak and social misfit.

I hope that answers your questions.
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August 13, 2013 5:47pm
Lucia Maria

…I tried to change the subject to political systems by mentioning the Jews Marx & Trotsky…

Except both Marx and Trotsky were atheists. They may have been Jewish by ancestry, but they were atheists by belief.
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August 13, 2013 6:38pm
Kea

Lucy, oh really ! Many Jews are only Jews culturally, as they are way too smart to believe in bible fables. It was the fact they were raised jews that informed their political views and not their non belief in imaginary things. Also remember Jewish people are at the fore of modern liberal thought, or as Red lovingly calls them. “filthy prog scum”.
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August 13, 2013 6:44pm
Lucia Maria

The Christmas of 1940 we were there and they gathered all the children and gave us food and asked if we believed in God. As a child, what do you say? Yes because that’s what your mother and father teach you, you went to church. So they said, hmm, if you believe in God ask God to give you sweets. So we did and nothing happened. And then they made us ask Batyushka (Grandad) Stalin’s portrait on the wall — so we had to do that and suddenly the ceiling opened and sweets fall down on us. They asked us who is better your God or Stalin. Of course we say Batyushka Stalin because he gave us sweets. And that’s how they got us to say God is no good. And we couldn’t say that our parents prayed — they’d have to do it at night when the children were all sleeping and we couldn’t see them because if we were asked, as a child you don’t lie — mostly anyway. My brother was asked if my mother prayed at home and he said yes, thought nothing of it and she was punished.

A Polish Wartime Childhood
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August 13, 2013 6:48pm

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