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July 13, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 13 July 2013

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Chuck Bird

This extended video of Michael Bain hopefully will convince a few more people with an open mind why David Bain will not and should not get paid blood money.

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/extended-video-michael-bain-defends-his-brother-5507303
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July 13, 2013 8:03am
Keeping Stock

Here’s hoping that Menzies Hallett never has the gall to ask the Parole Board to exercise clemency in his dying days. After all, he showed precious little mercy to Rodney Tahu when he stood over the wounded man and shot him in the head. In this case, life must mean life.

http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2013/07/this-will-be-life-sentence.html
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July 13, 2013 8:03am
Longknives

Breaking News!
http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/joe-karam-several-others-found-dead-in-bain-home/
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July 13, 2013 8:05am
Monique Angel

First posters ticking the boxes for topics Bain and latest mongrel story. Now waiting for someone to touch on Christianity followed by gay rights in a warming climate. All in the first ten comments guys.
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July 13, 2013 8:06am
Longknives

We could talk cricket then Monique?

I reckon this is the worst Australian Ashes team ever….just hopeless.
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July 13, 2013 8:07am
Pauleastbay

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/theashes/10176943/Ashes-2013-England-v-Australia-first-Test-day-three-report.html

The Aussies upset about Broad not walking – comedy gold.

Michael Hussey wouldn’t walk if he wa sclean bowled.
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July 13, 2013 8:10am
choose_life

no compensation should be paid to murderers!
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July 13, 2013 8:11am
Pete George

I’ve been commenting on Kiwiblog for about four years, and over that time my aims have evolved, from wanting to learn about and debate in the political world as a novice, to more recently being a semi-neutral observer and commenter with a bit of a connection with one party.

Over the last couple of months my aims and ambitions have changed, brought about by specific things happening.

One of these has been the Peter Dunne Kitteridge leak allegations. Immediately Dunne resigned as Minister I thought it looked like he had leaked. At one stage soon after I thought even remaining an MP looked untenable.

But the more I looked in to what actually happened with the Henry report and surrounding politics, and once Dunne started to talk about it, I became increasingly of the opinion that he may not have been the leaker, and that a travesty of justice had occurred, that Dunne had been unfairly targeted, accused with no substantial evidence.

And he had paid a high price for what might have been the jumping to conclusions of a public servant who was unwilling to widen his inquiry despite finding no evidence that came close to proving his assumptions correct. Or it might have been a political hit job.

In either case I think that leaves serious questions unanswered.

Some have said I should just drop it and move on, they’ve been saying that since the day Dunne resigned. There’s probably a mix of reasons for that. Some are just happy to see Dunne kicked in the political guts and will keep kicking him when he’s down. Some will just think it was last month’s news. And some have obvious political motives – I’ve learnt to read quite a bit from who says what, when, how and why.

Unless there is proof of anything to the contrary I’ll continue to see the lack of evidence against him and take Dunne at his word, and I make no apology for supporting him. Nor do I make any apology for raising what I think are potentially disturbing aspects to this case.

The second thing that has changed things is the United Future membership fiasco. It shouldn’t have happened, the party administrators stuffed up.

But oddly this has presented an opportunity. A party that few cared about suddenly became a party that some people realised they didn’t want to lose. United Future was seen as an essential part of our political MMP mix, a reliable centre based party was a real asset to our Parliament.

As a result the party has seen a surge in new membership. And there have also been other significant changes. Party members have become noticeably more interested and wanting to be more active. And for the first time since I’ve been involved (two years) people have contacted me wanting to do something.

So I can see an opportunity to do something with this, to possibly rebuild the party into a credible and competitive contender in next year’s election.

Unlike the single party rule promoters on Kiwiblog (who will never get the party they want and are unlikely to see single party rule) my preference is for Parliament to have a representative range of parties in the mix.

And I think United Future once again could be a small but important and significant part of our democracy.

So I have decided to change my approach and priorities and become an active supporter and promoter of the party.

It’s obvious the party, Dunne and I all have some regular haters here. And also some who see alternative parties as opponents to be destroyed. I don’t care about that, I have learnt to deal with criticism and attacks – and they have ranged up to extreme and bizarre, someone yesterday seemed to suggest I might try and assassinate Peter Dunne.

While DPF allows me to exercise the free speech he allows and champions here on Kiwiblog I’ll still join the fray at times, but I will also do more to promote what I want to, as others do.

I think I have some similarities with DPF – dedicated to a party, but willing to criticise your own if warranted and praise and support others if deserved. There’s also obvious differences, DPF is very experienced and well connected in politics, I’m a newcomer and outsider – but I see that as much a positive, parties and veteran politicians (like Dunne) should benefit from more of an outside view and thinking outside the box and the ‘beltway’/Beehive.

I think if United Future can recover as a political force it will be good for Parliament, for Government and for the country. There’s no guarantees but I think it’s worth having a damn good go at it. So I will. Success is only possible if you try. And it will be interesting, challenging and fun regardless.
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July 13, 2013 8:11am
Keeping Stock

@ Longknives – that was actually breaking news around lunchtime yesterday; but it’s still blimmin’ good satire
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July 13, 2013 8:12am
Hair Removal Specialist

Monique, you left one thing off your list…^^
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July 13, 2013 8:17am
Monique Angel

Yeah flag the other rubbish and talk cricket.
Pete. You have a hard road ahead of you. I reckon NZ has to lose MMP before we get a decent third party showing in parliament. Either that or do something shocking. Has Peter Dunne ever thought about becoming a whistleblower?
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July 13, 2013 8:22am
Reid

So I have decided to change my approach and priorities and become an active supporter and promoter of the party.

Yes Pete that will make a huge difference because until now, none of us could tell who you supported at all, you were hitherto so neutral about everything, in every single way.
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July 13, 2013 8:24am
Longknives

Sorry Keeping Stock- I was too busy at work to check out Kiwiblog yesterday!
Pauleastbay- This Aussie team is just rubbish, on and off the field. Compare the current line-up to who they fielded in the Ashes five years ago-

Langer
Hayden
Ponting
Hussey
Clarke
Symonds
Gilchrist
Warne
Lee
Clarke
McGrath

That team would go close to any Test team in History. This current mob might struggle to beat the Black Caps (Okay poor example- The Slack Caps probably wouldn’t last four days…but you get my point)
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July 13, 2013 8:24am
peterwn

See:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8913757/Cuts-let-predator-make-deal-mum
(plea bargaining because of Crown Law cuts upsets victim)
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10897404
(juror jailed for effectively refusing duty)

A key issue which many overlook is the balancing the right to a jury trial with the obligations placed on potential jurors. The juror in this instance appeared to be in a stiuation where his potential inability to carry out his occupation has significantly greater potential consequences for his employer and clients than average. This strongly signals that the number of jury trials should be minimised by both raising the threshold for a jury trial, and minimising the cases going to trial by dropping cases unlikely to succeed or by downgrading charges.

At present, Crown Law may proceed with a trial with a high chance of acquittal on a ‘public interest’ basis, IMO it would not be a bad thing if the number of such trials were cut back, even if victims and families end up being upset.

While an accused pleading guility to a lesser charge would face a lesser penalty, it is probable in practice that there would be aggravating features with the lesser charge enabling a stiffer penalty which would help offset the issue of an offender getting off too lightly on the lesser charge.

Moreover with the re-alignment of legal aid to reduce costs, it was ‘when’ rather than ‘if’ the government would consider taking a knife to prosecution costs. The only ones complaining are the lawyers themselves and victims’ group. It does seem rather silly in a way that the prosecution and defence can go hammer and tongs in court at taxpayer expense, when a bit of reflection could save trial time and money.
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July 13, 2013 8:25am
Pete George

It’s always a hard road in politics. And the dilemma is always that shocking gets attention but in reality good government should be mostly uncontroversial, efficient, and as little influence in people’s lives as possible.

But there’s been a noticeable change in the air with UF, something that should be taken advantage of while it’s there.
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July 13, 2013 8:26am
Judith

Chuck Bird (3,623) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 8:03 am
——————————

Michael Bain was not there, how would he know any more than anyone else? Being an ‘Uncle’ does not give or make him a higher authority.

Micheal Bain only ever saw the family a handful of times in the years before the deaths. He never visited them once in their home after their return from Paupa New Guinea. The only times he met the kids was about four times when they came to NZ from PNG and he met them when they visited other relations.

The last time he saw his brother Robin, was a while before the murders when they met at their mothers house to do some painting. During that visit he noted that Robin was not right, unhappy and even stated that Robin was depressed about having to go back to his family.

Despite that, Michael never bothered to go and visit his brother to make sure he was alright, never did anything to help the obviously struggling marriage. He wasn’t close enough to his brother to even seem to care – and now he thinks he knows it all?

Burridge, a NZ Police fingerprint expert has said the marks on the fingerprints appear to be condensation, and that the originals need to be examined for anyone to know for sure, but he does not believe they are cuts.

Dr Dempster, who examined the bodies, and noted every mark/cut etc on Robin’s hands, did not note those marks.
Robin’s left thumb prints shows an enormous amount of white marking – which going by police information would mean it was munted – however photos taken by the pathologist show it is just fine (except for a blood smear on it that couldn’t have been from Robin’s own wound).

So tell me, what would Uncle Michael Bain know, except for the fact he inherited from the estate, and ordered the house to be burned down?

Emotional clap trap – enlisted to try and win over public opinion from a man that wasn’t in a position to know.
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July 13, 2013 8:26am
Manolo

The government’s coffers overflowing with tax money: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10897415
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July 13, 2013 8:26am
Pete George

Reid, no one is ever neutral, not even someone who’s dissed as a fence sitter who never takes a position on anything (usually accused when someone doesn’t like the position one takes).
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July 13, 2013 8:30am
Pauleastbay

Longknives

I just have this thing about Hussey, I never cottoned onto him because he would never walk and he stated that publicly.

Naive of me but I like to think Test cricket is the last bastion of manners in a professional sporting world.

And don’t even get me started on Ian Healy claiming a stumping ( and getting it ) against NZ at Brisbane when he didn’t have the ball in his gloves.
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July 13, 2013 8:31am
Chuck Bird

Judith, Michael does not need anyone to hold his hand when he speaks to the media. The only way David will get any money will be another review. There cannot be two like Justice Ninnie.
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July 13, 2013 8:34am
Pauleastbay

Pete George (18,312) Says:

July 13th, 2013 at 8:11 am
I’ve been commenting on Kiwiblog for about four years

12.5 comments per day , everyday , goodness gracious moi
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July 13, 2013 8:36am
Longknives

Pauleastbay- Remember ‘Dyer the Liar’??

Having said- McCullum running out Murali as he was tottering off to congratulate his teammate was pretty rotten. And definitely NOT in the spirit of Test cricket. So New Zealand certainly aren’t exempt from poor sportsmanship…
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July 13, 2013 8:36am
Pete George

Be thankful Paul, a lot less than I used to, and a lot less than others here now.
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July 13, 2013 8:38am
Manolo

God help us. As if KB needs another Phil Ure….
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July 13, 2013 8:41am
Judith

Chuck Bird (3,624) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 8:34 am

———————————

No one said anyone was holding his hand.

Michael Bain doesn’t know what he is talking about. He was not there, he does not know whether Robin Bain cut his thumb, he is not a fingerprint expert, his opinion means no more than mine or yours. But that doesn’t stop him from trying to make out it does.

The police fingerprint expert believes it is condensation on the prints. We still don’t know what those marks are, but one thing is certain is they did not break the skin and therefore are not cuts. Michael Bain’s agenda is obvious – and always has been.

You posted his comments – I’m just pointing out to you how little they mean. Pity he didn’t act like an Uncle before the family died.
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July 13, 2013 8:43am
Monique Angel

Pete. I can see one of two avenues to follow. Go on blogs and say shocking things.
Or maybe you could take the opposite tack and be Mr Sensible
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July 13, 2013 8:52am
Monique Angel

Manolo. Noooo Don’t say that name. I’m trying to forget even the memory of that dribble.
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July 13, 2013 8:55am
peterwn

Sequal to my earlier posting.
See:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8913757/Cuts-let-predator-make-deal-mum
(plea bargaining because of Crown Law cuts upsets victim)

Although the lesser charge appears a significant step-down in maximum penalty, the lesser charge is nevertheless very serious and the offender is still likely to receive a stiff sentence for it. Home detention is unlikely to be an option.

The thought crossed my mind whether it would mean the offender could escape a ‘strike’ or the possibility of preventative detention (which would be a matter for concern), but these, fortunately, apply to the lesser charge. No doubt the prosecutor had this in mind when agreeing to the lesser charge.
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July 13, 2013 8:57am
Longknives

Manolo- Whatever happened to my old mate Philu? Remember he told us he had was about to sell ‘Whoar’ for “Huge Money” to some big American corporate?
Perhaps he is lying with a spliff somewhere on a beach in South America?
If so- who is the person still furiously cutting and pasting articles from around the globe about Cannabis legislation on ‘Whoar’?
And even stranger- Why has not one person commented on any of his articles for years?
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July 13, 2013 8:58am
Viking2

Chuck Bird (3,624) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 8:03 am

This extended video of Michael Bain hopefully will convince a few more people with an open mind why David Bain will not and should not get paid blood money.

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/extended-video-michael-bain-defends-his-brother-5507303
—————————–

Like most of your utterances over the years that’s just complete rubbish.
M Bain was not his brothers keeper and he is simply defending some mind picture that’s not related to facts, happenings nor reality.

Even more he wasn’t at the scene.
The question that maybe you should ask is why he should feel the need to defend his brother when it seems he new little about him.

Most of us think we know our brothers and sisters but if you really analyse that, if you have lived a long way apart for some time (which they did) and without the current benefits of skype,email etc then they were basically estranged form each other.

Try some thing else like protecting the money he inherited from burning the house down in a hurry.
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July 13, 2013 9:00am
Viking2

I Note that PM Johm Key is ow off on the inevitable power trip.
Threatening a Statury Govt. body with withdrawing funding just because he didn’t like what they had to say.
Slippery slope to losing the election.
Foolish.

Prime Minister John Key appeared to threaten Human Rights Commission funding after the watchdog issued a damning report on new spying laws.

The commission yesterday released critical views on two proposed bills aimed at beefing up the powers of New Zealand’s intelligence agencies.

Responding to Mr Key’s reference to funding, Mr Rutherford said the commission was an independent body and would continue to carry out its work independent of the Government.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8913615/Key-slams-watchdog-report-on-spying-laws

And before we have an argument about the merits of the Commission, it’s there for our benefit and they correctly have made their views known. If they are right or wrong then should be the discussion.
Try doing that.
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July 13, 2013 9:05am
Paulus

I question whether we need a Human Rights Commission – I have always thought that many of these high and mighty “commissions” were superfluous, and really only politically biased anyway.

Taxpayers money could be better used to look at child abuse.
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July 13, 2013 9:15am
Nostalgia-NZ

v2. 9.05. Exactly, meanwhile idiots will give up more and more of their freedoms and happily be spied upon.
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July 13, 2013 9:19am
Pete George

Monique – I seem to have shocked Winston Peters (or he’s playing politics) – he has threatened defamation against me. If he takes that further it could be shocking.
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July 13, 2013 9:22am
Kea

The Obama administration is continuing to work on international relations under the direction of the Nobel Peace Prize winner.

“S. American states to recall ambassadors from Europe over Bolivian plane incident”

http://rt.com/news/mercosur-countries-ambassadors-europe-030/
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July 13, 2013 9:33am
Andrei

Its the seventieth anniversary of a titanic tank clash
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July 13, 2013 9:55am
joana

PG
What is the possible defamation about?
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July 13, 2013 9:56am
Fairfacts Media

Here’s a piece from the leftist Independent noting how the left link up with unsavoury characters.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/why-is-the-left-so-blinkered-to-islamic-extremism-8679265.html
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July 13, 2013 9:58am
joana

I know some people who were at high school with the Bain children..The general consensus from them and other school mates was that..”they were a REALLY strange family.” This doesn’t mean anything of itself I suppose but school mates do get glimpses of things.
Why did the uncle insist on burning the house down? What authority did he have?
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July 13, 2013 10:01am
muggins

I see that in one post this morning Judith says that a fingerprint expert says that he does not believe those marks on Robin Bain’s hands are cuts and then shortly afterwards she says that they are not cuts.
She also says that Dr Dempster did not see them How does she know that?
Dr Dempster said the abrasions on Robin Bain’s hands were insignificant. Why would he have to note every one?
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July 13, 2013 10:02am
Judith

joana (1,877) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 10:01 am
————————

He along with other relations were executors of the will. The police said they were finished with it, and didn’t oppose it being burned down. So rather than clean the house up, they burned it down.

Sadly, that premature decision also meant evidence was burned with it. Once David was convicted in the first trial, that Uncle and other family members inherited the considerable estate.
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July 13, 2013 10:04am
Judith

muggins (2,481) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 10:02 am

Dr Dempster said the abrasions on Robin Bain’s hands were insignificant. Why would he have to note every one?

—————————————

He was required to note every mark on Robin’s body, as part of his forensic examination. As an expert, it is required he note everything, whether or not it supports the Crown’s case.

Why would he note everyone, except those marks on the thumb, if they were there?

But more to the point, why would he take photos of every other mark, scratch, bruise, blood splatter, smeared blood etc, on Robin Bain’s hands, but ignore those ones?

Why do the marks not show in subsequent photos of Robin Bain?
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July 13, 2013 10:08am
muggins

Joanna,
The reason for the destruction of the Bain house was pointed out in the PCA Report in 1997. The Executors believed the elimination of the house would help to erase the horrid memories associated with it and would effectively end morbid and ghoulish interest shown in it. They consulted with David and he was in agreement.
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July 13, 2013 10:09am
Scott Chris

but one thing is certain is they did not break the skin and therefore are not cuts.

Wrong. Next time you get a small cut, watch it heal. Scab comes off – perfect set of prints underneath, notwithstanding the indentation and discolouration.

Condensation my arse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzJGckMYO4
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July 13, 2013 10:11am
Judith

Scott Chris (5,034) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 10:11 am

Condensation my arse.
———————————–

So you actually know better than the person that was the NZ Police fingerprint expert in Auckland for many years, do you?

Would be interesting to see your qualifications on this point?

If they were ‘scabs’ then when they fell off, they would still leave raw/fresh red wound mark, one that would be obvious as not old – which Dr Dempster did not note, nor that shows in any photo. Why do you think that is?

Such a old cut, would also disturb the ridging, and it is not disturbed.

Are you suggesting Dr Dempster was incompetent, and therefore none of his evidence can be believed?
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July 13, 2013 10:17am
muggins

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2013/06/exclusive-firearms-experts-dismisses-bain-claims/
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July 13, 2013 10:17am
muggins

Judith,
I would like to see the photos of Robin Bain’s thumb that were taken at the morgue.
How do you know Dr Dempster did not see those marks?
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July 13, 2013 10:19am
muggins

http://davidbain.counterspin.co.nz/story/memories-of-robin
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July 13, 2013 10:23am
Judith

muggins (2,484) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 10:17 am
————————————

If you believe that comment from Whale oil’s blog, then you certainly have the right user name.

This is the blurb about the fingerprint expert that says the marks are most likely condensation and not cuts, but that the originals need to be examined. Is the blubba more reliable than him?

PETER C BURRIDGE
MRSNZ, MANZFSS, MIFPINZ, Dip. NZPol.
Fingerprint Expert with over 40 years practical experience. Retired Senior Sergeant / Principal
Fingerprint Officer, with specialist exhibit examination, crime scene and Latent print identification
skills. Was based in Auckland, New Zealand, but has also served in Africa in years past. Has had
considerable involvement with operational work, research, recommendation and implementation of
fingerprint methods in the New Zealand environment. Was a recipient of an Australasian Police Study
Award and this was responsible for many of the systems established. Since retirement, has
maintained “hands on” operational, training and management role as the majority shareholder in the
company, Fingerprint & Forensic Services Limited.
A certified fingerprint expert, who is well used to dealing with a wide range of civil and criminal
matters and has on going Court room experience. A Member of the Royal Society of New Zealand,
the Australian & New Zealand Forensic Science Society, a Fellow of the Fingerprint Society of the
United Kingdom, a Foundation Member of the Independent Forensic Practitioners of New Zealand
(Inc). and a Diploma in NZ Policing.
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July 13, 2013 10:24am
Kea

It was recently revealed that one of Obama’s regime was arranging protests against George Zimmerman, accused of shooting a man who attacked him, who happened to be black. The media have portrayed George Zimmerman as a racist who only shot his attacker because he was black. Zimmerman was out of favour with the Police for defending the rights of a homeless black man beaten up by a Police officers Son.

Here is what Obama does not want you to know.

In 2010 race-related beating case, George Zimmerman pushed to discipline same officers who investigated Trayvon Martin shooting

George was one of “very few” in Sanford who publicly condemned the “beating of the black homeless man Sherman Ware on Dec. 4, 2010, by the son of a Sanford police officer,” who is white.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/04/zimmerman-demanded-discipline-in-2010-race-related-beating-for-officers-who-investigated-martin-shooting/#ixzz2Ys95Etro

Now I can here the Obama apologists whine; “But the President does not get involved with these things”. Well not Obama, he makes time to persecute ordinary people.

So, making history, the president of the United States intervened in a criminal justice matter to foment race-hatred and fear. President Obama himself made it an issue of skin color: “If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon Martin.”
Once the president of the United States weighed in, Zimmerman had a target on his back. An ounce of election advantage to our privileged, Ivy League president versus the ruination of a Hispanic man’s life — it was an easy choice for Obama.

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/07/president_obama_vs_george_zimmerman_america_loses.html#ixzz2YsAzIfVJ
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook
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July 13, 2013 10:27am
Nostalgia-NZ

The idiot who put the photo on the internet to prove it wasn’t daddy, but achieved the absolute opposite, emerges covered in blubber.
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July 13, 2013 10:27am
Pete George

@joanna re defamation

http://yournz.org/2013/07/10/apology-request-from-winston-peters/
http://yournz.org/2013/07/10/peters-vague-on-defamation/
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July 13, 2013 10:29am
Judith

muggins (2,485) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 10:23 am
————————————

Muggins, it doesn’t matter how many people thought Robin Bain was lovely. There were thousands of people that could write the same about Osama Bin Laden.

Robin Bain’s actions that morning were the result of him basically ‘giving up’, losing the plot or however else you want to describe it. That doesn’t make him a nasty person at all. It makes him a person that needed help to cope with the negative situation he was in, and didn’t get that help.

I don’t think there is anyone that thinks Robin Bain was a monster. And often in these sorts of cases people come forward to say how great the perpetrator was. Nothing unusual about that at all – except its posted on a site that is fully of fairytales and lies.

I notice a post from the administrator of that site that thinks Joe Karam, the Privy Council, the second Jury and Judge, and Judge Binnie are guilty of ‘aiding and abetting’ a crime. I think that sums up the sort of site it is.
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July 13, 2013 10:30am
Longknives

I guess nobody wants to talk cricket?
David Bain it is then…..
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July 13, 2013 10:36am
Pete George

The Speaker’s dismissal of the privileges complaint by Clayton Cosgrove against Peter Dunne.

It says it had no authority to pursue the matter, but the fact is a question was asked and it was answered. I don’t know if that made any difference to the ruling.

“In considering an allegation of deliberately misleading the House, the Speaker will consider, amongst other things, whether the member against whom the allegation has been made may have had a personal knowledge of the matter as opposed to being aware only in an official capacity.”

“The committee had no authority to pursue such a matter in the manner in which one of it’s members sought to do.”

“In considering your complaint ultimately I had to balance the House’s privilege of free speech and power to inquire against the need to afford protection to witnesses appearing before select committees, in this case a Minister”. Where there is no real evidence that a committee’s proceedings have been impeded, that balance should be struck in favour of the protection of witnesses, for the inquiry function relies on witnesses’ willingness to contribute their evidence freely.”

“Having considered the matter you have raised I find that no question of privilege is involved”.

Scan of Speaker’s finding on Dunne privilege complaint
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July 13, 2013 10:38am
Judith

Longknives (2,680) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 10:36 am
I guess nobody wants to talk cricket?
—————————–

The only things I know about the cricket are memories of my fathers language the day the Aussies bowled underarm. I’d never heard him use the F word before that day.

And… how gorgeous that young man was that got 98 runs yesterday! I hope he does well in the future.
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July 13, 2013 10:38am
Keeping Stock

That’s an interesting diversionary tactic from Judith; comparing Robin Bain to Osama Bin Laden. I mean imagine her outrage if I was to compare David Bain to one of those blokes who flew a plane into the World Trade Centre because they both loved opera…
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July 13, 2013 10:41am
nickb

Great opinion piece in the Herald today by none other than our New Zealander of the Year, looking at the complete and utter failure of the National Party to uphold our civil liberties and the rule of law.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10897497

In 2007, John Key, then Leader of the Opposition, gave a powerful speech to the New Zealand Press Club against the Electoral Finance Bill. He declared: “Here in New Zealand we often take our democratic freedoms for granted. We think they will always be there. We have a Bill of Rights which is supposed to protect our right to freedom of expression. What on earth could go wrong?”

I have a different view. I believe what Thomas Jefferson said – that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. There are times when we have to stand up for our rights, and the rights of our neighbours and friends, and indeed the rights of people we totally disagree with, or else these rights will begin to erode away.

I agree with these sentiments, absolutely. New Zealanders must stand up for their democratic rights when they are threatened, or they’ll lose them.

Who could have imagined that in 2013, this same political leader would be presiding over an assault upon the democratic rights of New Zealanders? This is a matter of such gravity that last month, the Law Society felt impelled to report to the United Nations that in New Zealand “a number of recent legislative measures are fundamentally in conflict with the rule of law”.

Extraordinary though it may seem, this statement is no more than the truth. In its report to the United Nations, the Law Society lists a series of recent acts that have allowed the Executive to use regulation to override Parliament, that deny citizens the right to legal representation and cancel their right to appeal to the courts to uphold their rights under the law.
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July 13, 2013 10:43am
thedavincimode

Has Peter Dunne ever thought about becoming a whistleblower?

He did. The speculation is around whether he actually did which is why Tonto is pushing hard in the negative.
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July 13, 2013 10:44am
Pete George

tdm – Yes, he said he did consider it. But he claims that he didn’t, there’s nothing to prove that he did, and he would lose nothing more than he has – and gain whistleblower credit – if he admitted that he had.

If I was him and I’d leaked I’d admit it.
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July 13, 2013 10:48am
Kanz

Nostalgia-NZ (3,766) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 10:27 am

The idiot who put the photo on the internet to prove it wasn’t daddy, but achieved the absolute opposite, emerges covered in blubber.

He wants the infamy of doing it again by posting more links.
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July 13, 2013 10:49am
Judith

Keeping Stock (8,973) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 10:41 am
—————————–

I didn’t compare him, I was making the point that even a monster like Osama Bin Laden had people that loved him and would even today gladly write a piece saying how lovely he was.

That people said how nice Robin Bain was, doesn’t mean anything about the deaths. Anyone, no matter who they are, or what their actions may be, have people that love them and will speak about that after their deaths – its just a pity those that thought so much of Robin, didn’t actually help the man when he needed it.

Nice twisting though Keeping Stock – a true and loyal member of JFRB!
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July 13, 2013 10:52am
Fletch

Kea, the fix is in with the Zimmerman trial. The judge (a lifelong Democrat) us behaving very strangely and biasing the trial.
She even stormed out the day before yesterday when the prosecutor asked why Trayvon’s text messages (in which he talked about selling guns, fighting, and gangs) could not be used as evidence.

Speculation is raging that the judge in the George Zimmerman case could have been put under pressure by the Obama administration after she staged a bizarre outburst during which she interrogated Zimmerman while repeatedly silencing his lawyers.

The hostile exchange began when Judge Debra Nelson asked Zimmerman if he planned to testify.

Essentially, Judge Nelson told Zimmerman he had the “absolute right to remain silent” but then proceeded to demand he answer her questions interrogation-style while silencing his lawyers.

Defense attorney Don West twice objected to Nelson’s interrogation, prompting the judge to raised her voice and exclaim, “Your objection is overruled!” in a manner more befitting of an angry parent lecturing a child than a legal professional.

Both of Zimmerman’s lawyers appeared shocked as attorney Mark O’Mara asked under his breath, “what is going on?”

Several legal experts and observers said the outburst was unprecedented.

“I have never seen that in more than 30 years of court reporting,” tweeted journalist Kathi Belich.

Former Senatorial candidate Richard Rivette also expressed his shock at the judge’s behavior.

“This judge is an idiot. I spent five years investigating high profile capital cases defending people from the death penalty, and worked for the Federal judiciary as an independent investigator on other cases. No judge ever inquires as to whether a defendant will testify until the entire defense case is presented. If the defense rests and does not call the defendant then the judge knows there will be no testimony. If the defense calls the defendant then that’s when the judge finds out. They have to get through the entire case first. To see if it is valid after prosecution cross-examines their witnesses and experts as to whether a defendant SHOULD testify, which is decided in private not in public, and NOT on the record. By doing this, the judge has undermined a portion of Zimmerman’s credibility. He looks like he is waffling and this is normal judge/defendant questioning, which it is NOT,” said Rivette.

Respondents to the story at the National Review Online also expressed their view that Zimmerman was being railroaded.

“A fix is in from the administration to find Zimmerman guilty regardless of what it takes,” commented one.

“By demanding that Zimmerman respond to a question, after she has assured him that he has the right to remain silent, she is undermining his right to remain silent and making it appear as though he and his attorneys are not firm in their convictions. This judge is shameless,” added another.

Judge Nelson also ruled this week that Trayvon Martin’s text messages, which showed that Martin had been involved in fights before and was trying to buy or sell a gun, cannot be shown to the jury, which some suggested was another indication of an anti-Zimmerman bias.

Nelson also granted a request by prosecutors to block the defense’s attempt to show the jury a computer-animated depiction of the fight between Martin and Zimmerman.

She is also likely to allow the jury to consider lesser charges against Zimmerman in light of the prosecution’s probable failure to prove its case for second-degree murder, another indication that the state is desperate to avoid him walking free.

Judge Nelson has been very careful at every stage of the trial to dismiss evidence or testimony that could convince the jury in favor of acquitting Zimmerman.

Now some are asking the question – did Nelson’s aggressive outburst represent an attempt to prejudice the jury against Zimmerman?

LINK

The State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman took a turn for the absurd late Tuesday evening, as defense attorney Don West got in a heated conversation with Judge Deborah Nelson, just before 10:oo PM, after Nelson seemed to sound her intend to block testimony and evidence recovered from deleted messages on Trayvon Martin’s cell phone.

A forensic expert discovered more than 600 items on Trayvon’s cell phone, including texts and photos between Trayvon and other people, with specific references to criminal activity, particularly fighting, drugs, and firearms.

What was interesting is that everyone in the courtroom seemed to have a very specific idea of who that “someone” who deleted the evidence was, but were very careful not to say who.

The forensic expert, Conner, testified that he recovered multiple conversations between Trayvon Martin and specific family members and friends (Levondrea, “Diamond,” which is one of Rachel Jeantel’s names, etc) discussing multi-round street fights and schoolyard fights in which Trayvon Martin had participated. Martin’s half-brother, Demetrius Martin, even asked Trayvon when he would teach Demetrious how to fight like him. Everyone in Trayvon Martin’s family seemed to know Trayvon was a street fighter.

Even worse, Conner found multiple conversations—between 4-6—where Trayvon attempted to buy black-market guns, including a Smith & Wesson Sigma pistol and a .38 Special revolver, and one conversation in which he discussed trying to sell a .22 revolver, suggesting he was already in possession of it. On of the participants in one of the gun conversations was a Fulton, possibly a relative on his mothers side. All of these conversations took place immediately in the days and weeks before Trayvon Martin left Miami for Sanford.

And that gets us to this showdown between an incredulous Don West, who can’t believe the what he’s hearing, and Judge Deborah Nelson, who throws a hissy fit, gives a judicial “talk to the hand,” puts the court in recess, and storms out of the court as the defense is still trying to talk to her.

LINK
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July 13, 2013 10:58am
Dean Papa

“I just have this thing about Hussey, I never cottoned onto him because he would never walk and he stated that publicly.”

Did he? Even if he did, so what? He’s just being honest then. It’s not as if the kiwi batters are world famous for their walking.
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July 13, 2013 11:01am
thedavincimode

he claims that he didn’t, there’s nothing to prove that he did, and he would lose nothing more than he has

Thankyou Tonto, but we are all well aware of this argument as you have kindly reinforced it on an hourly basis since he made a complete tool of himself and implicitly condoned breaking the law if you can get away with it while he was Revenue Minister.
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July 13, 2013 11:05am
Fletch

Twitter agreeing to hand over private information about its users who post what is deemed “hate speech” on its site.

Twitter has agreed to hand over the details of people who post racist and anti-Semitic abuse anonymously on the micro-blogging site, it emerged today.

Following a long legal battle, the US-based company said it would cooperate with authorities in France who want to bring alleged criminals to justice.

The breakthrough is a significant test case for the millions who use social media to express hatred and anger without revealing their identities.

Prosecutors in Paris argued that Twitter had a duty to expose wrong-doers, despite its insistence that people had a right to anonymity.

[…]

Twitter lawyer Alexandre Neri originally argued that the company was only subject to US law and only a judge in America could force it to release the information.

Mr Neri told the Tribunal de Grande Instance in Paris that Twitter ‘data is collected and stored in the United States’ – namely in San Francisco, where the site is based.

‘Should I submit myself to the law of a different country to where I work?’ he asked.

He added that the differences between French and US laws on freedom of speech have created a ‘huge void, a question mark’.

On Thursday Twitter lost its legal battle in France permanently when the Paris Court of Appeal dismissed its protests against the original ruling.

And today AFP, France’s national news agency, confirmed that Twitter had agreed to cooperate with the judgement, and would hand over the coordinates of those responsible for the tweets.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2361751/Twitter-agrees-reveal-names-people-post-racist-anti-Semitic-comments-losing-French-legal-battle.html

What’s the bet this will eventually be extended to so-called ‘homophobic’ or ‘Islamophobic’ tweets?
So much for free speech.
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July 13, 2013 11:05am
joana

PG re possible defamation.
You seem to be obfuscating and prevaricating but everyone who reads you on KB knows you do that a lot..Not having a lawyer does not seem to be particularly wise.
I did read a clear NZF stance on the Psychcoactive Substances Bill. You could have obtained this if you had wanted to.
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July 13, 2013 11:06am
RF

Judith. Agreeing to disagree … my main problem with David Bains father committing suicide is the method you believe he used. I have had the unpleasant task to attend a number of suicide by gun shot cases. The victims shooting themselves in the mouth, under the chin, upper chest, both sides of the head in the temple depending on them being left and right handed. Reasonably simple methods with the person sitting or lying down with firearm of normal length usually between the legs and fired by depressing the trigger with their great toe, finger or stick. In one case a plastic coat hanger. It is my belief that once a person decides to do the deed, it is carried out in the most simple effective manner. I am unable to understand why someone would leave the silencer screwed to the barrel thus making it more difficult to reach the trigger and then go into contortions to hold the rifle at an awkward angle. I know the defence team has proved that it is possible just as it could be possible to shoot yourself midway through a Bungy jump. The question is why make such a simple task so difficult once you make the decision.
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July 13, 2013 11:17am
Pete George

joanna – I’ve read clear NZF stances on the Psychcoactive Substances Bill too, and I’ve posted on them. That’s why I was surprised by the column by Peters that complained about the Bill and implied he was against it, I think. It was difficult to tell from his rambling semi-coherent post about horses and camels.

Barbara Stewart went on to confirm NZF actually supported the bill and they voted for it – which I posted on as well – NZ First’s Stewart clear on Psychoactive Substances Bill support
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July 13, 2013 11:20am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

The only movie to be downloading right now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwsqFR5bh6Q
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July 13, 2013 11:23am
Judith

RF (855) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 11:17 am
———————————

I acknowledge your experience RF, however, the analysis of the site of injury, the weapon, the position etc indicates that Robin Bain’s death was 95% more likely to be suicide. That is an amazingly high figure, and can’t be discounted.

I don’t want to devalue what you say but the statistics do not support your experience.

I do not know why Robin chose that particularly position. Convenience for where he was, lack of time to alter the gun (remove the silencer), its anyone’s guess. But the fact remains, the shot was possible, the forensics support it being that way.
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July 13, 2013 11:33am
muggins

Judith.
What analysis?
And where are those photos showing Robin Bain’s thumb did not have any marks on it?
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July 13, 2013 11:46am
Kanz

muggins (2,486) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 11:46 am

Use your ‘phone a friend’ option, or are you fast running out of friends to phone?
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July 13, 2013 11:57am
Colville

It’s not as if the kiwi batters are world famous for their walking.

Kiwi batters are very well known for walking… they walk out, get out and walk back in. The walking takes longer than the batting!
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July 13, 2013 11:58am
Rowan

RF @ 11.17
The main ‘problem’ with the scene which all the prosecution and witch-sniffers conveniently overlook is how on earth did David manage to shoot Robin. The crown have absolutely no explanation and the best that CS have is a comedy clip showing Robin sitting on the beanbag level with the gunmen hiding behind the curtains, its completely ridiculous and totally laughable.
At the second trial it was shown that Robin was standing when he died. The shot was close contact and the trajectory upwards.
Given that David was taller than his father he would have to be crouched down. Robin would have needed to be completely cooperative in his every move, why would he? Then you also have a misfired/misfed bullet indicating that the first attempt to shoot him failed, he has also removed his beanie enough to expose his temple.
Looking at the final scene suicide is very easy to explain and murder very difficult, no wonder it was ignored by the Kieran Raftery in his closing address.

Chuck
Michael is away with the fairies its very easy to see his agenda here. The evidence is not ‘hearsay’ it was direct testimony from witnesses. Even if Laniets allegations were totally untrue they were still made and would still have been damaging to Robin. Its already been shown the marks are not cuts. I guess if you believe in something strong enough then you will find explanations to explain anything away much like Michael is. He is in denial.
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July 13, 2013 12:14pm
goldnkiwi

Re the alleged ‘magazine’ marks they were thin and defined (albeit with a spot), short, and going in a particular direction and not parallel on Robin.

The ‘reconstructions’ are smudged and thick, parallel and longer and only one appears to get even close to the similar angle. Perhaps some one should have another 100 or more tries to get them to look even approximately the same. IMO. Is there always this much doubt with a SLAM DUNK?
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July 13, 2013 12:28pm
wikiriwhis business

Karam: Bain case is proven for sure

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10897065
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July 13, 2013 12:51pm
nickb

I guess nobody wants to talk cricket?

I for one would sure rather talk about cricket then murderers and PG’s incessant self-promotion.

How about them ashes? Didn’t watch overnight but seemed like England took the game away from Aussie.

Booked tickets to Melbourne for the Boxing Day test, will hopefully make it to day 3 or 4. Hopefully Aus put up a fight
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July 13, 2013 1:04pm
Viking2

Someone was looking for Phil;u.
Here’s the link.
Found om NZ Conservative.

http://whoar.co.nz/
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July 13, 2013 1:08pm
Viking2

A 25-year-old Jewish girl tells her Mom that she has missed her period
for 2 months. Very worried, the mother goes to the drugstore and buys a
pregnancy kit. The test result shows that the girl is pregnant.

Shouting and crying, the mother says, “Who was the pig that did this to
you? I want to know!” Without answering, the girl picks up the phone
and makes a call.

Half an hour later, a Mercedes stops in front of their house.
A mature and distinguished man with grey hair and wearing a yarmulke
step s out of the car and enters the house.

He sits in the living room with the father, mother, and the girl and
tells them, “Your daughter has informed me of the problem. I can’t marry
her because of my personal family situation but I’ll take charge. I will
pay all costs and provide for your daughter for the rest of her life.

“Additionally, if a girl is born, I will bequeath two retail
furniture stores, a deli, a condo in Miami, and a $1,000,000 bank
account.”

“If a boy is born, my legacy will be a chain of jewelry stores and a
$25,000,000 bank account.”

“However, if there is a miscarriage, I’m not sure what to do. What do
you suggest?”

All silent at this point, the mother placed a hand firmly on the man’s shoulder
and told him, “You’ll have to try again!”
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July 13, 2013 1:21pm
liarbors a joke

natives at it again…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8915200/Police-abandon-chase-of-violent-driver
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July 13, 2013 1:27pm
Longknives

nickb- The Boxing Day test is magnificent. Rates up there with Melbourne Cup/Derby Day.
The Aussies sure know how to ‘do’ sport!
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July 13, 2013 1:29pm
Manolo

The cops are wrong, liarbors. I reckon the crims are from Gambia or Gabon.
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July 13, 2013 1:29pm
liarbors a joke

had a look over at whore..still same ole same…coupla tumbleweeds blowin around…otherwise no movement
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July 13, 2013 1:30pm
nickb

As a lawyer I am proud of the New Zealand Law Society’s well thought out submission on the GCSB Bill.

So, what does NZLS say about the National Party’s proposals to spy on NZ citizens?

The Bill changes the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) from being a foreign
intelligence agency to a mixed foreign and domestic intelligence agency. The Bill empowers the
GCSB to spy on New Zealand citizens and residents, and to provide intelligence product to other
government agencies in respect of those persons, in a way not previously contemplated and that is
inconsistent with the rights to freedom of expression and freedom from unreasonable search and
seizure under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 (NZBORA) and with privacy interests
recognised by New Zealand law.

The Law Society’s concerns regarding the absence of clear justification for these changes are
exacerbated by the use of Parliamentary urgency, and the consequent short timeframe provided for
consultation and submissions. The Law Society is concerned that, in the absence of compelling
grounds for urgency, its use degrades the democratic quality of the legislative process.

The Bill is intrusive. It would empower the GCSB to spy on New Zealand citizens and residents, and
to provide intelligence to other government agencies in respect of those persons. It is inconsistent
with the rights to freedom of expression and freedom from unreasonable search or seizure under
NZBORA and with privacy interests recognised by New Zealand law.

Remember, this is from New Zealand’s supposedly “classical liberal” party. Remember the outrage National rightly expressed when Labour, backed by its Green Party and United Future toadies and lap poodles, introduced the Electoral Finance Bill?

Why now does National seek to pass legislation which infringes our NZBORA rights at least as much as the EFA did?

s21 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 (perhaps the closest thing NZ has to a written constitution) states:

Unreasonable search and seizure
Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure, whether of the person, property, or correspondence or otherwise.

The Law Society’s take on this issue?

The limitation of the protection of communications from interception by the GCSB to New Zealand
citizens or New Zealand residents in the present section 14 may have been an adequate protection
against invasions of the privacy of persons and entities (including businesses) operating within New
Zealand society, while the intelligence-gathering function of the GCSB was limited to “foreign
intelligence” (as defined). But when that constraint on the GCSB’s functions and powers is removed,
that limited form of protection is an entirely inadequate safeguard of the freedom of expression, the
freedom from unreasonable search and seizure and the privacy interests of participants in New
Zealand society (whether citizens or permanent residents or not) for proposed section 14(1) to be
enacted as it stands.

And why are all the National supporters on this blog so deafeningly quiet?

Is this the “brighter future” we were promised in 2008? I of course didn’t vote for the National Party but I would be feeling pretty damn embarrassed if I had.
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July 13, 2013 1:43pm
nickb

nickb- The Boxing Day test is magnificent. Rates up there with Melbourne Cup/Derby Day.
The Aussies sure know how to ‘do’ sport!

Good to know longknives, I am looking forward to it.
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July 13, 2013 1:46pm
muggins

Kanz (1,148) Says:

July 13th, 2013 at 11:57 am
muggins (2,486) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 11:46 am

Use your ‘phone a friend’ option, or are you fast running out of friends to phone?

Kanz,
I might just do that.
However I have just seen a photo of that same hand taken at the morgue and I can see lines on Robin Bain’s thumb. And so can a couple of other people who have seen that photo.
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July 13, 2013 1:47pm
Pete George

@nickb

The Bill empowers the GCSB to spy on New Zealand citizens and residents, and to provide intelligence product to other government agencies in respect of those persons, in a way not previously contemplated…

Further to that from the Law Society it’s worth looking at what the GSCB Bill says:

8C Co-operation with other entities to facilitate their functions

(1) This function of the Bureau is to cooperate with, and provide advice and assistance to, the following for the purpose of facilitating the performance of their functions:

(a) the New Zealand Police; and
(b) the New Zealand Defence Force; and
(c) the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service; and
(d) any department (within the meaning of the Public Finance Act (1989) specified for the purposes of this section by the Governor-General by Order in Council made on the recommendation of the Minister)

Not only “to spy on New Zealand citizens and residents…in a way not previously contemplated”, but also by departments we can’t contemplate because we don’t know who else “the Minister” might specify to spy on us.

And what “department” means under the Public Finance Act (1989):

department—

(a) means—
(i) a department or instrument of the Government or any branch or division of the Government; or
(ii) the Office of the Clerk of the House of Representatives; or
(iii) the Parliamentary Service; but

(b) does not include—
(i) a body corporate or other legal entity that has the power to contract; or
(ii) an Office of Parliament

Parliamentary Services could use the GCSB to spy on New Zealanders?
IRD?

Any part of the Public Service and Parliament that the Minister wants to spy on New Zealanders? Presumably they would have to have good reason but this shows how loose the legislation is.

We should just trust Big Brother, we have nothing to fear!
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July 13, 2013 1:59pm
Kanz

muggins (2,487) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 1:47 pm

Kanz,
I might just do that.
However I have just seen a photo of that same hand taken at the morgue and I can see lines on Robin Bain’s thumb. And so can a couple of other people who have seen that photo.

Lines that don’t show on fingerprints, and were not seen by the pathologist. What colour are they? Photoshop is a wonderful program when attempting to prove a point. Make certain to use the correct colour and have them in the exact right place. 😉
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July 13, 2013 2:05pm
goldnkiwi

They are called wrinkles/creases. Now you see them now you don’t.;)
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July 13, 2013 2:16pm
Kanz

They are called wrinkles/creases. Now you see them now you don’t.;)

Wrinkles that some think they can prove as being red. That’s a new one.
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July 13, 2013 2:18pm
muggins

Kanz,
I said I had seen a photo of Robin Bain’s thumb taken after his body had been removed from the house and I can see lines on his thumb.
Another point. If those lines are supposed to have disappeared quickly how come they are still showing in that photo on counterspin which was taken some time after Robin Bain died?
And how do you know Dr Dempster didn’t see them? He might have just thought that they were age lines , the same as I have got on my thumbs.
Someone has already gone to Photoshop. Whaleoil has the photo. But I am not talking about that photo.
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July 13, 2013 2:21pm
Nostalgia-NZ

[DPF: Link to other site removed due to complaint over defamatory material there]

Included above is a photo of Robin’s thumb after his death, no cuts or scratches – exactly what the police experts said from observation of the photo highlighted on 3 Degrees. The case has turned into an ‘idiot trap.’ One idiot put the evidence on KB without realising it, a businessman took note from his experience as a rifle user and we have gsr on daddy’s thumb. The idiots now say that it scratches or cuts, despite there not being any such scratches or cuts showing in later photos, or in contemporaneous finger prints with clear ridge definition, and nothing from the pathologist’s notes or evidence.

Of interest in the fairly well known photo linked above is evidence of blood smears or wipe on Robin’s palms, indicating Robin had been wiping blood from somewhere that morning before his death and residue was left on his hands. In the laundry was a towel that showed up clearly in 3 Degrees this week. That blood was considered to be David’s for many years, but tests showed that it was Robin’s. Robin had a bleeding nose before his death or at least some profusely bleeding wound. Another mortuary shot shows what appears to be blood on Robin’s moustache. While the frantically desperate, such as the ‘stuck in a headlight’ headlight reporter who stumbled his way through an interview on 3 Degrees that belied his practical knowledge of the case but which underlined his clear bias, all now concentrate hope of smudged prints taken after Robin’s body was removed from refrigeration none can explain the gsr other than by a type of witchcraft that relies on the observer believing they appear, disappear, and appear again.

Regardless of all this, and how obviously it shows that Robin killed his family, the irony is thick on the ground that it was the persecutors who built a public hate campaign against his son who revealed the truth about dear daddy. Interesting to see those, who might be considered to more circumspect with their opinions, falling for the story of Burgess so willingly – then still unable to understand the whole case against David Cullen Bain continues to unravel by the minute and what ever foothold purchase they think they might have gained with bs or otherwise is in sand below the high tide mark. I love it.
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July 13, 2013 2:24pm
Kanz

Kanz,
I said I had seen a photo of Robin Bain’s thumb taken after his body had been removed from the house and I can see lines on his thumb.

Great. Do those lines match exactly with the ones that are claimed to be magazine wipe? Are they cuts as the police and ‘Uncle Michael’ claim? Or are they just marks that you ‘think you can see’?
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July 13, 2013 2:26pm
Kanz

Kanz,
I said I had seen a photo of Robin Bain’s thumb taken after his body had been removed from the house and I can see lines on his thumb.

A link to it would be helpful, or have you learned your lesson.
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July 13, 2013 2:47pm
nickb

Can anyone tell me if they have watched the Bain “A Question of Justice” documentary and whether it is any good? I was going to sit down and watch it.
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July 13, 2013 2:48pm
muggins

Kanz,
It was the photo that Karam was waving about.
As for that other photo , what thumb is that?
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July 13, 2013 2:49pm
goldnkiwi

Well there seem to be a lot of alternate theories concerning what those lines are but I am damned if they resemble the three degree theory, so in some ways it is a moot point.

Amazing how Robin managed to position the gun and pull the trigger without using his thumb. Of course that action could have narrowed the lines down to a pencil line lol. The action would of course have wiped any marks off if they were what has been posited.
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July 13, 2013 2:50pm
Judith

Kanz (1,152) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 2:26 pm
——————————

No Kanz, muggins, ralphy and all the other old men in counterspin have compared ‘wrinkles’.

Apparently one has a wrinkle that matches Robin’s wrinkle. All very technical of course.

I do suggest we need a representative sample before we can believe muggins.

Can everyone please post of photo of their wrinkle! For scientific purposes you understand. 🙂
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July 13, 2013 2:51pm
Judith

muggins (2,489) Says:
July 13th, 2013 at 2:21 pm
Kanz,
I said I had seen a photo of Robin Bain’s thumb taken after his body had been removed from the house and I can see lines on his thumb.
——————————

Muggins you also said you had seen an email from the police in which two officers were in the room during David Bain’s medical examination, and they left for a few minutes,

also that the police officer was standing in the doorway during the examination ALL THE TIME, and that David was never naked.

On that occasion you were ‘seeing things’, that weren’t there.

Sorry, but I don’t believe a word you say. And anyone with half a brain shouldn’t either.
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July 13, 2013 2:59pm

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