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June 3, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 3 June 2013

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General Debate

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wreck1080

Holden Australian are releasing a new model commodore. The pricing is significantly reduced in Australia but New Zealanders will pay a lot more for the same models. This annoys me, the aussies earn much more money so why would this be?

Then, we get this ridiculous statement from holden…

“This pricing structure is different to Australia’s, where there has been a substantial lowering of Commodore RRPs. But Holden NZ marketing boss Marnie Samphier said the Kiwi prices are designed to be negotiated downwards, while the Australian prices are not the actual driveaway prices and will always be negotiated upwards.”

So, Marnie, why would anyone negotiate the price upward? Don’t get that.
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June 3, 2013 8:04am
Left Right and Centre

Can you define what ‘child poverty’ means in NZ please?
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June 3, 2013 8:04am
Reid

Can you define what ‘child poverty’ means in NZ please?

Whatever any lefty politician and the media interviewing them decide it means at the given moment, LRC.

And then afterwards when they’re asking conservative politicians for their response to this latest ‘outrage,’ they’ll take another look at it and re-assess on the spot if it appears their first take on it wasn’t sufficiently tragic.

P.S. It would be funny if this wasn’t what really does happen.
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June 3, 2013 8:07am
Judith

Left Right and Centre (759) Says:
June 3rd, 2013 at 8:04 am
Can you define what ‘child poverty’ means in NZ please?
————————————–

I asked this very question at a meeting recently.
I was told it is defined by a set of standards that a basically bottom line of what it is expected NZ children to be provided with. When those basic expectations cannot be met due to a lack of resources (namely money) then poverty occurs.

There are, apparently, a large number of NZ children whose parents are unable to met those needs, therefore those children are deemed as living in poverty. Of course poverty is ‘relative’. There are children living in the slums of Indian that would deem it as luxury. There are children living in Africa that would deem the Indian slums as luxury.

Anyway, that is what I was told.

Another point was made, that whilst some children may be deemed as living in poverty, their parents may not be – but that is another discussion.
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June 3, 2013 8:22am
wreck1080

what a great innings by the kiwi cricketers — listened on my ipad last night.

The kiwi cricket team are the hardest team to support. After such a comprehensive victory they will no doubt suffer an equally comprehensive defeat. No consistency.
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June 3, 2013 8:23am
Judith

@wreck1080

Cricket is a great sport to play, and even better to watch from the terraces with a few mates on a nice day.

The trouble for NZ is cricket is no longer popular, so it doesn’t receive the attention/money it needs. Many schools don’t even have cricket teams and the matches are not profitable enough to regularly screen on TV. That is quite sad, because cricket generally requires an entirely different type of sportsman to rugby, and there are probably many young men and women that would be suitable and enjoy the sport, if only introduced to it as a young age.
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June 3, 2013 8:29am
dime

Wreck – Aussie on road costs are a few grand.

Pre delivery 1495
Stamp duty 1500 .. Can’t remember the calculation.. So that’s approx
Rego 800

Cars seem to have a lot more margin over here. Eg the max discount on something like a Nissan xtrail was about 3k Aussie. Over here it’s more like 7.
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June 3, 2013 8:31am
bhudson

The measure of poverty used is: income <60% of the median income. It actually measures "relative poverty" as opposed to "absolute poverty", although how often is that ever pointed out?

Relative poverty is a measure of what people have compared to others [and fits nicely with agendas of 'politics of envy'.] Absolute poverty, on the other hand, is the inability to acquire the essentials of life for survival with dignity.

Numbers bandied about by opposition parties claim we have 270,000 children living in poverty. There are no claims made as to the number living in absolute poverty.

Relative poverty is an insoluble problem – if median incomes rise, so does the threshold $ value for relative poverty. It doesn't measure needs, but assumed wants.

Although, to be fair, there is an economic assumption that the cost of living will rise with rises in wages due to inflation and you can't exactly have a definition that changes years by year depending on the changing rate of inflation. I think the greater issues are: i. what is the appropriate % threshold for relative poverty in a climate where wealth and the overall standard of living continue to improve, and ii. the inappropriate use of relative poverty statistics to imply (or at least not clarify) conditions of absolute poverty.
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June 3, 2013 8:32am
dime

We are a fucked up nation.

Guptil plays one of the best innings ever and we can’t be happy and just celebrate it.

The first kiwi article I read is well done.. But why can’t we play better in tests. Wtf.

Then every comment I hear is like wrecks above. Give yourself an uppercut.

First series defeat for England at home since 2009! Fuck yeah!
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June 3, 2013 8:34am
bhudson

^^ as the earlier comment from Judith shows: an assumption permitted that poverty statistics in NZ are absolute poverty when, in fact, they are relative poverty
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June 3, 2013 8:35am
peterwn

AFAIK , ‘poverty’ is when a household is living on below a ‘defined’ percentage of the average income, so presumably there is ‘child poverty’ with respect to any children in the household. On this basis there will always be ‘poverty’ and ‘child poverty’ since if benefits are increased, the threshhold for ‘poverty’ will also increase. Arguably if all the payments, etc advocated by poverty action groups are made, and hence taxes go up, the number of families in ‘poverty’ will reduce as investment in NZ will dry up, jobs become scarce and average income reduces.

Hence a child living in relative luxury with a bright prospective future in the third world could be regarded as living in ‘poverty’ in NZ.
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June 3, 2013 8:40am
duggledog

Child poverty in NZ means two things to me:

A useful tool for the left to bludgeon National with, because the gullible percentile of the electorate take the phrase at face value without digging deeper. Even though their hero Helen Clark’s administration campaigned on ‘closing the gaps’ and despite spending vast sums of money on the problem, arguably made it worse by doing so.

PPP – piss poor parenting. This is the code teachers use amongst themselves when describing some of their students.

Entirely predictable end result of state sponsored illegitimacy, will get worse

As an aside, Kaipara College in Helensville has a full time nurse. And a truancy officer. And a social worker.
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June 3, 2013 8:42am
mikenmild

Good call dime. Congrats to the Kiwi cricketers.
Today should really be about celebrating NZers’ achievements, with a new load of recipients of royal honours. Albert Wendt, Lockwood Smith, Gordon Tietjens and many moire – well done you all.
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June 3, 2013 8:47am
alloytoo

IMHO use of median in poverty calculations is inappropriate given that we have a poverty floor in this country.

Given that we have this (Very expensive) poverty floor, which is designed to stave off absolute poverty I would argue that any child poverty in NZ is tantamount to child abuse, likewise the phenomena of hungry school kids.
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June 3, 2013 8:47am
Hodor

I hope the prisoners who burned their cell blocks down will be spending the winter living in tents?

Somehow I doubt it though. People like these have not really learned to face the consequences of their actions.
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June 3, 2013 9:03am
MT_Tinman

Wreck, two of the silliest comments of the decade.

The NZ cricket team have just won the series (as they did in SA) 2 – 0.

Who, except for the statisticians and their mothers gives a fuck what happens in the dead rubber?

The Ocker tax-payers have poured billions into Oz-GM/Holden and OZ Ford. They should get cheaper cars the the brain dead NZers who buy their current travesties.
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June 3, 2013 9:21am
MT_Tinman

Well said Dime.

Worth repeating;

First series defeat for England at home since 2009! Fuck yeah!
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June 3, 2013 9:23am
wreck1080

@mt_tinman —

I agree, definitely 2 of the silliest comments of the decade.
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June 3, 2013 9:24am
mikenmild

Also good on Guptill, highest ODI score by a NZer. Not a test player, but a one-day essential.
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June 3, 2013 9:24am
Manolo

The order came from D.C.: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/02/interviews-with-irs-agent-suggest-tea-party-targeting-came-from-washington/
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June 3, 2013 9:34am
iMP

The Queen’s real name was “Elizabeth Saxe-Coburg & Gotha”. But…

http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/factoid-of-the-day-windors/
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June 3, 2013 9:48am
joana

There are now five gang rapes per week in Belgium..Winds of Jihad.
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June 3, 2013 10:10am
Scott

Joana- that is very sad stat. It happens with Muslim men who see western women as tarts who can be molested at will. Australia had a very big gang rape case where the judge did the right thing and put the perps in jail and threw away the key. It happens in Sweden a lot also. All muslims.

Norway I believe has seen the light and cracked down on Muslim immigration. The rest of Europe should follow suit.
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June 3, 2013 10:17am
Pauleastbay

The state of our media

Margaret Shields dies

The Herald has nothing except the death notice.

Obviously waiting for instructions from labour central.

Appalling
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June 3, 2013 10:39am
joana

Yes Scott ,
Sometime on here someone questioned me saying some of these countries I think the Scandanavian ones , had not had crimes of gang rape before they were invaded but it is true. The Scandanavian girls have been dying their hair for years to try to protect themselves. In the same way in Asia, blond women and children are ”top dollar.” When traveling / living there I was always alarmed at the way parents of little blond children let them roam at places like airports..The parents did not seem to understand the danger.
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June 3, 2013 10:43am
mikenmild

PEB
DominionPost covered Margaret Shields’s death, but then again she was a Wellingtonian.
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June 3, 2013 10:44am
bhudson

@joana,

I think you should share your insights with Kyle Chapman – they’d fit in well there
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June 3, 2013 10:45am
mikenmild

To be fair to joana, I don’t think her high level of paranoia is helped by frequenting Kiwiblog.
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June 3, 2013 10:48am
bhudson

Best she keep away from The Stranded then
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June 3, 2013 10:57am
Pete George

An interesting column by David Clark after returning from his Eisenhower Fellowship exchange trip to the United States. He compares freedom and fairness values here and in the US.

Fairness the hallmark of our country

Dunedin North MP David Clark considers the balance between fairness and freedom.

If you believe New Zealand’s egalitarian dream is dead, I want to argue that belief in its underlying principle of fairness is the single most important determinant of our country’s future.

http://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/opinion/259502/fairness-hallmark-our-country

He concludes:

To make New Zealand a more attractive place for talent to live, to ensure we continue to have a privileged place at the table in trade negotiations, and because it fits with our national identity, our country needs to adopt policies that create a rising tide that really raises all of the boats, not just a privileged few.

Having a break away from his Labour colleagues seems to have helped Clark take wider less political view.

Fairness is important, but it isn’t simple. Something that seems fair to one person may not be fair on another.

Where the ‘fairness’ argument seems to be most contentious in New Zealand is how fair is it to take money off some people and give it to others? A decent society must have this to a degree – but the the degree is highly debatable.
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June 3, 2013 11:04am
Fletch

Interesting POST by a university student in the U.K on how he became Islamophobic.

My University in London used to be a Polytechnic. Before that, it was a parking lot. By gradients then, the same space has become progressively less functional over the ages, and it now blights the cultural life of an otherwise charming town.

In appearance, the main building resembles a very old-fashioned, inner-city high-school. The campus is tiny relative to normal universities. There is no green space nearby and we are surrounded on all sides by busy roads. The website calls it ‘cosy, modern and artful’. In reality it is compact, ugly and depressing.

I didn’t need to attend this place. I received very good A-level results. Warwick University was among the first institutions to offer me a reservation. I turned them and others down because I wanted to attend somewhere further away from the small, boring town in which my parents live. More specifically, I was determined to live and study in London.

What I had in mind was the London I saw on television; a stuffy, slightly upmarket New York in effect, with intelligent men and aspirant women supping cocktails and espresso, you know the kind of place. What I have become used to since I arrived here is a city of burkas and terrorism, black-tar heroin and prostitution; a magnificent metropolis half-destroyed by a single cultural minority.

You may think, dear general reader, that the panic and hysteria over Islam is unwarranted or driven by third-party interests (oil politics, Jewish Nationalism, Racism etc…). The ‘me’ just a day or two into freshers week would completely agree with you. The ‘me’ now wants you to listen carefully and without prejudice as to why this is not the case.

I realise now that the present epoch is a contest between two starkly different futures: One in which the West is Islamised and the other in which the West is restored. The first is a nightmare of which some of us already have a taste, and which we are fully prepared to fight to prevent.

I’ll give you three examples of the trend from personal experience…

During my first year of study, I was resident in a student halls with many other people, most of them Muslim, most of them British-born. Throughout this year I witnessed (and on occasion, suffered) cultural bullying of a type I never imagined existed. This was the bullying routinely talked about on racist websites, and which I had always assumed to be Islamophobic fiction.

Here’s a question for you – In what situation do you think it is appropriate to label a women you don’t know a ‘slag’? I’m sure, assuming you are a decent and rational person, that you would only imagine yourself using such language during a fit of rage over something like a terrible betrayal, or after being physically attacked by a female stranger…..

Well, the non-Muslim women of my block grew used to hearing this word in retribution for such crimes as wearing shorts on their way to netball practice. They became used to hearing it when they went out in groups to local nightclubs and when they returned home in the early hours of the morning. They hardly blinked when such slurs were screamed out of windows, day-in and day-out, and it went unreported.

Here’s another question for you – In what situation do you think it is justified to spread lies about people you barely know?

Well, lies of the most serious and defamatory kind were routinely spread about non-Muslim students by Muslims that year, via intranet email, graffiti and loud insinuation. The women (the ‘slags’) were alleged to be infected with sexual diseases. The boys were alleged to be homosexual and/or riddled with AIDS. The ‘evidence’ for such slurs involved the lifestyles of the Kaffir – their attending of parties, easy laughter and congregating with people of the opposite sex…

Here’s a second example….

On St Valentine’s Day during the second year, the Student Union decided to propose a Valentine’s Day Singles Ball to which men would come wearing badges saying ‘single’ to meet women who would be identified likewise. It sounded quite silly I remember thinking, but if people enjoyed it, who cared?

You don’t need me to tell you who cared about it, and who eventually protested loudly enough for the Ball to be cancelled. It was the ****** University Islamic Society, a sprawling and powerful mafia with tentacles reaching into every aspect of student life. They thought the ball would encourage promiscuity and so they lobbied against it.

Again, nobody said a word.

A third and final example I’ll give of my awakening is the most serious. You might well dismiss what you’ve read so far as ‘anti-social’ behaviour and no worse than that of other ethno-cultural groups, but not this occasion:

I was sitting in class one day, near the back of the room. The lecturer had finished talking and now we were told to discuss amongst ourselves the things we’d heard. A group of Muslim men just across from me were apparently uninterested in the lecture that day as they commenced to discuss videos they’d been emailing each other instead. It took me a short while, but I came to understand that these were decapitation videos. After hearing words and descriptions that I never want to repeat, I nervously looked over at the men and saw sick, sadistic smiles curling up their bearded faces.

At the end of that year, I was a fully developed ‘Islamophobe’. I can’t and won’t deny what I witnessed and what I saw others go through. And more than this, I won’t help the taboo to survive which allowed for these abuses to go unreported.

If there is one thing my University made clear during Fresher’s Week, it was the ‘multi-faculty policy on discrimination’. In lengthy assemblies, we were told that no ‘discrimination’ of any kind was tolerated longer than it took for those responsible to be expelled.

A climate of fear, no less palpable than that of totalitarian dictatorship was cast over us all.

You’ll notice that I haven’t provided you with the name of my University. This is because I am currently studying there and do not wish to be beaten to a pulp by students. I wouldn’t trust the staff or security to help me in such a situation. This University is Islamic territory now.

The people I hope to reach are those who might have any illusions about the determination of the Muslims to enforce their way of life onto the rest of us. It is not a ‘Zionist fabrication’. It is not a ‘fantasy’ of White Nationalists. I am a perfectly liberal guy, and have a zero-tolerance policy for racism.

The threat is real.

D, LDN.
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June 3, 2013 11:06am
kowtow

I found the Clark article to be shallow and inconsequential.If that’s the best he can manage after such a study trip he should have stayed at home.
There he is beaming in the photo with the Under Warlord Chris Powell,but back to Aotearoa and biting the hand that just fed him,the always generous Americans,the Einhower Fellowship. Typical leftist.
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June 3, 2013 11:14am
Manolo

There is no choice but to be an Islamophobe. The “religion of peace” is vile and requires complete surrendering of the mind.

Any thinking person must combat these violent intolerants.
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June 3, 2013 11:14am
UglyTruth

The “religion of peace” is vile and requires complete surrendering of the mind.

You don’t have a single clue, Manolo.

Surely the worst of beasts in God’s sight are those that are deaf and dumb and do not reason. Surah 8:22

And He lays abomination upon those who do not reason. Surah 10:100
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June 3, 2013 11:19am
Redbaiter

“how fair is it to take money off some people and give it to others? A decent society must have this to a degree”

This stinking amoral crap from a weasel who complains when I call him a commie.

A decent society does not elect thieves to parliament.
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June 3, 2013 11:23am
Manolo

Where the ‘fairness’ argument seems to be most contentious in New Zealand is how fair is it to take money off some people and give it to others? A decent society must have this to a degree..

Wrong P.G., one hundred times wrong. You obviously love compulsion.
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June 3, 2013 11:28am
UglyTruth

how fair is it to take money off some people and give it to others? A decent society must have this to a degree

Pete George, robbery and decency have nothing in common. If you really want decency then stop supporting the Crown.
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June 3, 2013 11:29am
Pauleastbay

How I became religiousophobic

Fletch (4339)
June 3rd, 2013 at 11:06 am
Interesting POST by a university student in the U.K on how he became Islamophobic.
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June 3, 2013 11:33am
Pete George

Redbaiter, you are welcome to find somewhere in the world to live where you don’t have to pay any taxes. It may not be a nice place, but that may suit you (and Manolo and Ugly Truth).

A decent society strives for the fairest balance between taxing to pay for essentials, pay for things the majority think is reasonable, redistributing, and leaving people with what they earn.

If you can ever manage to get a single MP elected who supports a taxless society I will be astonished.
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June 3, 2013 11:34am
Redbaiter

“Redbaiter, you are welcome to find somewhere in the world to live where you don’t have to pay any taxes.”

FUCK I GET SO SICK OF YOU AND YOUR DELIBERATE DYSLEXIC INTENT TO PERVERT THE MEANING OF EVERY OTHER COMMENT.

i DID NOT SAY EVER THAT THERE WAS NO NEED TO PAY TAXES.

YOUR COMMENT RELATED TO TAKING MONEY OFF SOME PEOPLE AND GIVING IT TO OTHERS.

FUCK OFF. YOU’RE USELESS IN TERMS OF REAL DEBATE AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.

FUCKING LOGICALLY DYSLEXIC TIME WASTING FUCKWIT PRETENDING TO REASON AND SENSE. A COMPLETE AND UTTER FRAUD.
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June 3, 2013 11:38am
wat dabney

Any coercive transfer mechanism – including all those created in the name of ‘fairness’ – is simply going to be hijacked by special-interest groups. Fairness doesn’t enter into it. That’s all the Labour Party is; a vehicle for politically-organised thieves to plunder everyone else. And those marching in the streets protesting the bank bailouts are typically the same sort who voted to enable coercive state “redistribution.” It is their fault the damn banks were bailed out.
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June 3, 2013 11:39am
mikenmild

SHOUTING FONT ALWAYS MAKES ME SMILE
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June 3, 2013 11:43am
cha

Oh dear, another dry hole morning?.
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June 3, 2013 11:44am
Redbaiter

LAFF YOUR FUCKING HEAD OFF THEN.
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June 3, 2013 11:44am
thedavincimode

hudson

The real point to be taken from your comment is that there is poverty and “not poverty”. Statistical measures reflect poverty and “not poverty”. That is not “poverty”. Families living in the dust on the subcontinent eating dust sandwiches, but without the bread, live in poverty (barely existing in poverty might be a better way of putting it). Families who spend money on booze, smokes, Sky TV, 2L cokes, bags of barbecue flavoured crusky crappo nibbley shitto husks and KFC aren’t necessarily living in poverty but are most definitely living in stupidity and should be living in jail for abusing their kids.
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June 3, 2013 11:45am
UglyTruth

A decent society strives for the fairest balance between taxing to pay for essentials

There are other ways of paying for essentials other than by taxation. A decent society does not engage in fraud. Any if you think that leaving the country is such a good idea, why don’t you lead the march?
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June 3, 2013 11:46am
thedavincimode

I usually do old dear. Why don’t you just calm down and have a nice cup of tea.
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June 3, 2013 11:47am
Redbaiter

Given up on false trails have we?
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June 3, 2013 11:47am
nasska

Reddy’s losing it! 🙂
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June 3, 2013 11:50am
thedavincimode

He needs to loosen his suspenders.
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June 3, 2013 11:51am
mikenmild

time for some reddy-baiting is it?
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June 3, 2013 11:52am
bhudson

Red is best at it – he puts the “master” into “baiting”
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June 3, 2013 11:56am
Redbaiter

Nothing seems to get through to that useless mentally incoherent prick.

No harm in trying capitals.

It might even have worked.
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June 3, 2013 11:57am
mikenmild

Stop it with the self references Reddy.
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June 3, 2013 11:58am
Pauleastbay

nasska
be nice, saving the world one incoherent ramble at a time is bloody hard work.
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June 3, 2013 11:59am
thedavincimode

reddy-baiting

As in posting something on this blog that he disagrees with, or as in just tweaking his nasal hairs?
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June 3, 2013 12:00pm
mikenmild

I think it’s a liitle difficult to post any comment that Reddy does agree with.
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June 3, 2013 12:03pm
bhudson

Oh I think he does agree that you can’t actually see Russia from Sarah’s window
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June 3, 2013 12:04pm
nasska

You could be onto something there….I can sense that the affection being shown by his inflatable Sarah Palin doll is the only thing separating him from deep despair. 🙂
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June 3, 2013 12:07pm
Ross12

Can any of the political history buffs remember a Govt. being such a bad position 405mths out from an election?

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/lobbyists-give-labor-the-cold-shoulder-20130601-2nihr.html
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June 3, 2013 12:08pm
mikenmild

NZ Labour going into the 1990 election, with the Mike Moore panic move?
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June 3, 2013 12:10pm
thedavincimode

A decent society strives for the fairest balance between taxing to pay for essentials, pay for things the majority think is reasonable, redistributing, and leaving people with what they earn.

Actually PG, you are completely wrong and simply regurgitating the populist platitudes of the hairdo without having given any thought to the role of society (and, by implication the role of local and central government) does not lend any more weight to them. “Decent”, “reasonable”, “fair”?? By whose standards?
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June 3, 2013 12:10pm
Redbaiter

As usual the self professed “right” of Kiwiblog rush to demonstrate that their true political allegiance is to the progressive left.
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June 3, 2013 12:11pm
thedavincimode

he does agree that you can’t actually see Russia from Sarah’s window

Why – is he too short to see out the window?
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June 3, 2013 12:12pm
wat dabney

“You are welcome to find somewhere in the world to live where you don’t have to pay any taxes. ”

Isn’t that a line from The Godfather, where the Don is explaining the facts of life to a small-business owner?
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June 3, 2013 12:16pm
Pete George

IT MIGHT EVEN HAVE WORKED

Yes, it might. But I’ve stopped laughing now.
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June 3, 2013 12:16pm
Pete George

And for the second big laugh of the day, Anthony Robins claims that no one at The Standard is paid to post. And…

Round here what you see is what you get.

To an extent that could be correct. You get a bunch of paid propagandists hiding behind pseudonyms. Hey Clint, you shouldn’t be happy doing that.

The Standard on power of blogs
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June 3, 2013 12:20pm
Scott Chris

Well, as far as Mafioso go, the democratic model of government is really rather benign.

And since when in history haven’t we been ruled by the biggest gang?

C’est la vie.
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June 3, 2013 12:43pm
UglyTruth

Turkish police control unit.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLye9bXCEAEaZGz.jpg:large
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June 3, 2013 12:48pm
Scott Chris

Oops, meant Mafias not Mafioso.
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June 3, 2013 12:52pm
UglyTruth

And since when in history haven’t we been ruled by the biggest gang?

Ever since the biggest gang lost its edge (the end of Roman military dominance).
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June 3, 2013 1:20pm
nasska

….”Ever since the biggest gang lost its edge (the end of Roman military dominance).”….

Not quite….this was followed by the Roman theological dominance.
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June 3, 2013 1:29pm
Longknives

” can sense that the affection being shown by his inflatable Sarah Palin doll is the only thing separating him from deep despair”

http://www.thefrisky.com/2008-10-09/sarah-palin-sex-doll-now-on-sale/

Giggity!
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June 3, 2013 1:33pm
UglyTruth

Not quite….this was followed by the Roman theological dominance.

Um, gangs aren’t really defined by their thoughts about deity.

Religion as a cover for political influence is a recurring theme. More recently cultivation of Islamist extremism (eg USAID, Fethulan Gulen) etc has become prominent.

http://ceasefiremagazine.co.uk/whistleblower-al-qaeda-chief-u-s-asset/

In interviews with this author in early March, Edmonds claimed that Ayman al-Zawahiri, current head of al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden’s deputy at the time, had innumerable, regular meetings at the U.S. embassy in Baku, Azerbaijan, with U.S. military and intelligence officials between 1997 and 2001, as part of an operation known as ‘Gladio B’. Al-Zawahiri, she charged, as well as various members of the bin Laden family and other mujahideen, were transported on NATO planes to various parts of Central Asia and the Balkans to participate in Pentagon-backed destabilisation operations.
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June 3, 2013 2:20pm
Bob

I find it hard to believe Labour are happy about going into coalition with the Greens. Labour members are not stupid. I have respect for Shane Jones and Annette King. In fact I sometimes wonder why Jones with his fairly commense views is not in National. I can only think they are cuddling up to the Greens because of their own poor polling knowing they have little chance on their own of unseating Key. If they were to take power I suspect their public service advisers will be having serious talks with them.
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June 3, 2013 2:27pm
nasska

….”Um, gangs aren’t really defined by their thoughts about deity.”….

When a deity is the glue that holds individual members of a “gang” or a “group” together then it’s not unreasonable to describe them as such. Indeed the Holy Roman Church up until the end of the Dark Ages, same as the Muslims of today are excellent examples.
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June 3, 2013 2:34pm
Redbaiter

Nasska- with his endless obsession with religion and his tired old joke format, a good example of why Kiwiblog is now light years behind Whale Oil in page views.
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June 3, 2013 2:36pm
Johnboy

I didn’t spot any trade unionists in the birthday honours list! 🙂
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June 3, 2013 2:38pm
nasska

And how are you & Whale getting on nowadays Reddy? 🙂
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June 3, 2013 2:38pm
wat dabney

“Well, as far as Mafioso go, the democratic model of government is really rather benign.”

To quote P.J. O’Rourke: “Our government gets more than thugs in a protection racket demand, even more
than discarded first wives of famous rich men receive in divorce court.”

Or perhaps a more relevant O’Rourke quotation would be “remember that all tax revenue is the result of holding a gun to somebody’s head.”

The morality of taking other people’s money doesn’t change just because you take a show of hands among potential beneficiaries.

“And since when in history haven’t we been ruled by the biggest gang?”

Hence the necessity of Capitalism: for the first time in all of human history society based on peaceful trade rather than violence.
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June 3, 2013 2:40pm
Manolo

An honest man speaks for a pittance: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/06/02/bill-clintons-half-million-dollar-speech-is-drawing-outrage-in-israel/
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June 3, 2013 2:57pm
Manolo

Some will violently disagree, but the conviction is firm and clear.
Good on RB.: http://truebluenz.com/2013/06/02/on-rinos-cinos-linos-and-ninos/
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June 3, 2013 3:03pm
UglyTruth

Hence the necessity of Capitalism: for the first time in all of human history society based on peaceful trade rather than violence.

Ever since the time of the Templars capitalism has given way to corporatism. Likewise the contract of the capitalists has given way to employment and the influence of the central banks.
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June 3, 2013 3:03pm
Kea

Global Warming Watch:

UK’s coldest spring since 1963 claims 5,000 lives: Pensioners worst affected – and experts say final toll could be ‘horrendous’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2298246/UKs-coldest-spring-1963-claims-5-000-lives-Pensioners-worst-affected–experts-say-final-toll-horrendous.html#ixzz2V7UiYUjP

Complaining about the weather has reached epidemic proportions in northern Germany this “spring.” And with good reason. With Easter just around the corner, meteorologists are telling us this could end up being the coldest March in Berlin and its surroundings since records began in the 1880s.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/cold-german-winter-refuses-to-warm-up-for-easter-a-891468.html

Freezing cold March sets records across Europe

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/wp/2013/03/29/cold-march-sets-records-across-europe/
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June 3, 2013 3:26pm
Left Right and Centre

ssssshhh…. just quietly….

Fashion statements that are in the red: white girl approx 11… black leggings decorated with small white religious crosses like wallpaper. Wouldn’t you just love to transport her back to 1963 dressed like that?

I’m sweating the small stuff: I don’t need every 1kg pack of laundry powder to come with a plastic scoop that I throw in the recycling bin every time the new pack is opened. I’m a bloke. I only need one and that will last longer than I will.
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June 3, 2013 3:29pm
Johnboy

Gee Kea I hope nice Mr Norman lowers our power bills before I get to be a pensioner! 🙂
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June 3, 2013 3:30pm
Johnboy

“I’m sweating the small stuff: I don’t need every 1kg pack of laundry powder to come with a plastic scoop that I throw in the recycling bin every time the new pack is opened.”

Just toss it in the trash bin like I do LRaC…..No sweat! 🙂
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June 3, 2013 3:32pm
UglyTruth

@Manolo (truebluenz)

Since the left have owned the political narrative we do not talk about things like freedom, liberty, property rights, individual rights, small government.

These ideas don’t belong to the left, they are ideas that are central to the libertarian/statist political axis. The left seem to be pro-statist when they’re talking about assistance from the state and anti-statist when they’re talking about civil rights. Like they saying goes, if you’re not a liberal when you’re 25 then you have no heart, and if you’re not a conservative when you’re 45 then you have no brain.

James Corbett made a pretty sharp observation about the media’s statist bias when he noted that the US media only got active about widespread wiretaps after it became apparent that they themselves were being targeted, and their solution was to appeal to the same people who had instituted the wiretaps in the first place.
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June 3, 2013 3:33pm
Left Right and Centre

Johnboy 3:32 pm Yah yah… sorry, what was I thunking? Looking beyond my own selfish consumer driven resource sucking demands… roilly.

It’s the wastefulness I don’t like. I hate to sound like a greentard but that’s a waste of resources. In fact, comrade LR&C might just go full greentard and legislate that laundry powder is one of those products that yes you can take your own container to the shop and buy the quantity you need. Then you don’t even need the frickin waste of packaging.

Eg… LR&C goes to shop with own container. Fills up with 5kg. Five packets and five scoops not needed. Where’s my genius award?
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June 3, 2013 4:16pm
Left Right and Centre

I might have had some highly distorted illusions about turning the KB GD thread into a think-tank to define/ discuss/ debate ‘child poverty’ in NZ…. and get some thought-provoking contributions to the essay style question….

So… poverty means or can mean… low income. That’s it. So… beneficiaries with children in their care are automatically in ‘poverty’.

Well, we don’t want them in ‘poverty’, do we? Ahem…. DO WE?? That’s a simple matter of lifting their income, yeah? Until they’re not in ‘poverty’ anymore. What level of income would that be then?
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June 3, 2013 4:36pm
Johnboy

I actually agree with you LRaC re plastic packaging. Who the fuck needs it.

When I was a lad Mum and me popped down to the Butchers to get our rump steak. He hacked it off a chunk of beef on the big wooden block, wrapped it in white paper we took it home and scoffed it that night. Chips and fried onions usually! 🙂

Must have been healthy, I’m still alive! 🙂

No bloody plastic, no fridge, just a meatsafe. Imagine the shock and horror from the food safety police if you handled food like that today…….Wankers! 🙂
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June 3, 2013 4:39pm
Scott Chris

and if you’re not a conservative when you’re 45 then you have no brain.

I’ve observed a natural inclination in most human beings to become more conservative as they age – in much the same way as they grow senile.
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June 3, 2013 4:40pm
OneTrack

Lrc – hopefully you mean full greentard which means you will carry your 5kg home on your pushbike. Or does full greentard mean you don’t have to wash at all 🙂
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June 3, 2013 5:17pm
Left Right and Centre

Here’s what’s going on….

The least fit people to be parents in NZ are the most likely to have children; and more of them. And at a younger age.

They have no mandate to breed according to middle-class standards of what’s considered respectable.

Then you can tsk tsk at them on Comrade Live weeknights at 7pm living in one room sharing a blanket.
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June 3, 2013 5:19pm
Fletch

Well, actor Michael Douglas has come out and said that his throat cancer was caused by oral sex (probably from the HPV virus to be exact).

Michael Douglas – the star of Basic Instinct and Fatal Attraction – has revealed that his throat cancer was apparently caused by performing oral sex.

In a surprisingly frank interview with the Guardian, the actor, now winning plaudits in the Liberace biopic Behind the Candelabra, explained the background to a condition that was thought to be nearly fatal when diagnosed three years ago. Asked whether he now regretted his years of smoking and drinking, usually thought to be the cause of the disease, Douglas replied: “No. Because without wanting to get too specific, this particular cancer is caused by HPV [human papillomavirus], which actually comes about from cunnilingus.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2013/jun/02/michael-douglas-oral-sex-cancer

This pretty much squares with what a scientist said last year saying that HPV is right up there with tobacco –

Mouth cancer claims one life every five hours in the UK and more than 5,000 new cases are diagnosed each year.

Tobacco use is the main cause for mouth cancer, with those who drink and smoke to excess being 30 times more likely to develop the disease.

The human papilloma virus has also been identified as a threat. Transmitted via oral sex, and also a known cause of cervical cancer, experts suggest HPV may rival tobacco as a key risk factor within the next 10 years.

http://www.investigatemagazine.co.nz/Investigate/2637/oral-sex-could-be-as-cancer-causing-as-tobacco-scientists-warn/
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June 3, 2013 5:20pm
Johnboy

“The least fit people to be parents in NZ”

Silly young buggers should have taken on board the giant opportunities given them by our Welfare State and become merchant bankers or UN special agents before they bred!…..mumble….mumble! 🙂
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June 3, 2013 5:23pm
Left Right and Centre

OneTrack 5:17 pm Carry it on my what now? Brain fart- greentard bad- ABORT! ABORT!!!!

Do I look like I want to be Wallywood greenmare, who turns up on her bike to meet dignitaries and sometimes gets hit by ratepaying drivers, version 2.0 next local body? I’m voting for John!!
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June 3, 2013 5:24pm
Johnboy

Cunninglingus my arse Fletch…which Hollywood Directors dick was he sucking? 🙂
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June 3, 2013 5:27pm
Manolo

Give this man an Oscar for creativity: http://health.msn.co.nz/healthnews/8669004/michael-douglas-blames-oral-sex-for-throat-cancer

Too much Mrs Zeta-Jones?
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June 3, 2013 6:13pm
Kea

Manolo from the article : “Human Papilloma Virus (HPV) has long been known to cause cervical and anal cancer, as well as genital warts. It’s now thought to be responsible for 60 per cent of throat cancers, due to oral sex.”
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June 3, 2013 6:16pm

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