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June 29, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 29 June 2013

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Dennis Horne

flipper (1,793) Says: June 27th, 2013 at 12:45 pm [The Bain Marks]
The demented few are ever more desperate in their efforts to deny the obvious: A fucked up investigation … While the demented dentist (et al) continues to libel Binnie J., the International Commission of Jurists has let it be known, through appropriate legal and diplomatic channels, that respected western international jurists hold that Collins actions were disgraceful, and brought discredit on NZ – whether the demented, silly tax lawyer(and her advisors and her spin doctors, paid and unpaid) likes it or not.

Blah blah blah. International Commission of Jurists. The big guns, eh. Pop! Pop!

There was an old blowhard called flipper
Hot air frazzled his brain to a fritter
All the bluster that he could muster
Missed Collins the Bull Buster
She said nein to his advice; thankyou, bitte.
And dropped his bunkum slam-dunk in the chipper.

flipper (1,793) Says: June 28th, 2013 at 6:36 pm [Journalist Swipe Cards]
[Paul E B and Graham] Simply confirmation that you do not have the intellect to engage in discussion on serious matters without ad hominem comment…

There was an old blowhard called flipper
Who kept all his wits in a slipper
He did so rant and so rave
Anonymous but ever brave
Collins said “Stick your advice it’s just witter.”
Your proud pen_is more nipper than big dipper.
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June 29, 2013 8:02am
Griff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEOeTX1LqM
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June 29, 2013 8:06am
Keeping Stock

@ Dennis – please don’t feed the trolls; let them eat one another on those other threads 😀
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June 29, 2013 8:08am
Scott Chris

Colin Espiner on Dunne:

But as someone who worked as a political editor in the press gallery for eight years, I’m 99 per cent convinced Dunne was responsible [for leaking the report], based on his behaviour since, his refusal to co-operate with the inquiry, and my knowledge of how these things work.
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June 29, 2013 8:10am
peterwn

See:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8856749/Mystery-surge-keeps-residents-guessing
“A massive power surge blew out $20,000 worth of electrical appliances at Rachel McKee’s home – and she’s desperate to solve the mystery of who is responsible.”
The short answer is in the circumstances no one is likely to be ‘responsible’, since the incident was almost certainly storm related.
There are three possible reasons for that ‘surge’:
1. 11,000 or higher volt lines touching the 230/400 volt lines (which supply individual customers) or being close enough for an arc to occur. If this happens it is a complete no-brainer that appliances will be damaged or worse. Generally protective equipment (like a MCB on a switchboard but on a larger scale) will disconnect the line before too much damage occurs.

2. A blown 11,000 volt fuse or a broken 11,000 volt broken jumper, etc can mean that only two out of the three wires are supplying a particular transformer. This means that two-thirds or so of the premises supplied will suffer ‘low voltage’. This can cause motors in appliances, etc to stall and burn out.

3. A broken ‘neutral’ wire can also cause voltages to go excessively high or low. If a ‘neutral’ serving two flats breaks, then the available 400 volts is ‘shared’ between the two flats. If one flat just has a few electronic things plugged in, but the other one has heaters, jug, etc going, the voltage innthe former flat can rise to near 400 volts and this is unlikely to be good for electronic equipment.

As for ‘responsibility’, if no one was negligent, then the lines company or retailer is not liable for the cost of damage. The owner has to claim on insurance (assuming it covers this sort of incident), or just cop the loss. The lines company could be deemed to be negligent if the lines company company did not take appropriate actions to keep maintenance etc up to date. In practice, lines companies maintain networks better nowadays than some of the old power boards did. So a claim against a lines company taken in the Disputes Tribunal or District Court is unlikely to succeed.
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June 29, 2013 8:16am
Pete George

@Scott Chris – that was Espiner three weeks ago. Four days ago Espiner blogged:

Whatever your view over the GCSB leak, the only crime Peter Dunne has committed here is being too honest.

That’s quite different, after time to reflect on what transpired.

And that blog was headed The Great Peter Dunne Beat-Up. There’s a fair bit of that here.
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June 29, 2013 8:20am
Griff

At least possum head is not able to bullshit like some.
UF and PG admit they are center.
Unlike the party most on the right vote for..
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June 29, 2013 8:26am
Pauleastbay

the only crime Peter Dunne has committed here is being too honest.

and if you repeat this to yourself often enough Pete it will become true.

Why did he resign Pete? As he has proved in the last fortnight he is just another tacky little money grubber- you don’t throw away a ministerial salary because you are being honest.

He will be being honest when the emails he has with-held from the Prime Minister are released. Then we will see how honest Mr Hair Cut is. The saddest thing is they will show he hasn’t been honest with himself.
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June 29, 2013 8:26am
Dennis Horne

@Pete George. Dunne is a prig. Fell from the pedestal. Can’t pick up the pieces.
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June 29, 2013 8:26am
Judith

Not wanting to stir the religious pot, but I am genuinely interested in the Christian take on the sort of exploration detailed in this article.

How does the Bible describe outer space – especially beyond our solar system etc?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23075332
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June 29, 2013 8:30am
Judith

the only crime Peter Dunne has committed here is being too honest

I’d be happy if that statement was changed from honest, to human. I don’t think we can apply the term honest with a great deal of emphasis, because lying by omission is still dishonesty – as is delayed confession. However, what Peter did is human – we are fallible creatures and driven by our emotions, even if the boys don’t like to admit that.
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June 29, 2013 8:35am
Pete George

Pauleastbay – it’s not me who said that. But journalists seem to generally think Dunne is honest, and they will know him a lot better than a few blog commenters who hate him so flavour their comments with with a very biased view.

I don’t know if Dunne has been honest about his role in the leaking. I’m simply observing that he is being seen as honest by journalists who know him much better then I do, and no evidence has been produced that proves Dunne wrong.

Judith – fair comment, no human is totally honest, nor infallible. But some are more honest than others.

And there is no sign of a delayed confession – to the contrary, he continues to maintain he didn’t leak.
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June 29, 2013 8:36am
Monique Angel

Leaker’s are heroes remember? just look at Edward Snowden.
Oh Fer.
Some working knowledge of political science and consistency would keep you socialists on message.
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June 29, 2013 8:37am
Judith

peterwn (2,238) Says:
June 29th, 2013 at 8:16 am
———————————–

I don’t understand that – surely the electrical supplier has to cover spikes? There were several appliances involved, so how can all of them have the same faulty board? Something doesn’t quite add up.
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June 29, 2013 8:38am
Scott Chris

Whatever your view over the GCSB leak, the only crime Peter Dunne has committed here is being too honest.

Dunne hasn’t committed a crime as far as I know.

But he hasn’t been honest either. If Espiner is, quote, 99% certain Dunne is the leaker, then he is also 99% certain that Dunne is a bald faced liar.

On the other hand, if Dunne didn’t leak information to Vance, then what substance did he leak? 😉
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June 29, 2013 8:43am
Pete George

It’s interesting see Dunne’s honesty questioned. He has been the centre of attention this, for good reason, but the honesty of others could be questioned at least as much.

Winston Peters nade accusations that remain unsubstantiated. He claimed their was specific evidence (phone records) that didn’t eventuate. He strongly implied and didn’t deny he had email evidence and that has proven to be dishonest.

Trevor Mallard has made charges that have been rejected by the Attorney General.

David Henry wasn’t open about getting swipe card data, he omitted that information from his report.
Henry hasn’t explained why he chose not to investigate the most likely methods of leaking.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Henry had other information that he hasn’t revealed. What else does he know and how did he find out?

When it comes to openness and honesty Dunne is far from the only person under suspicion.
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June 29, 2013 8:50am
Judith

Pete George (18,076) Says:
June 29th, 2013 at 8:36 am
—————————-

Sorry, should have clarified that, I meant delayed confession for what he had done – involving Vance. I still feel that if he had come forward and stated what his part was, as soon as the matter was raised, the whole thing would have been accepted a lot better.
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June 29, 2013 8:52am
Mobile Michael

Liability and indemnity would have been set out in the contract you agreed with the electricity company. Have a read of the terms on your retailers website.
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June 29, 2013 8:59am
peterwn

Judith – there is nothing in the law that places strict liability on a electricity lines company if ‘spikes’ occur. Parliament could include this in the Electricity Act but has chosen not to do so. Also for some ‘spikes’, arguably the appliance was not up to scratch.

In this particular instance, the ‘spike’ was most probably the consequence of a 11,000 volt wire touching lower voltage wires and occurred briefly until protective equipment disconnected the 11,000 volt line. Electronic equipment and home appliance with electronic control ‘boards’ would not have stood a chance in such a case. Seems the customer in question would have had a damaged washing machine, portable phone (sitting in the charger), computer wifi modem etc.

Things like portable phones, ADSL computer modems, fax machines etc connected both to the telephone line and to power are particularly vulnerable to damage, although as far as I know, they are supposed to be designed to withstand a few thousand volts inside for a brief period.
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June 29, 2013 9:00am
Pete George

Yes Judith, as usual it is often the how things are dealt with that trips politicians up. Like it or not that’s how things work – and it’s what a lot of the tactics focus on.

Which raises the question of why someone leaked to Winston Peters. It could have been purely political. It could have been to try and pressure Dunne into confessing – or at least making a fatal mistake. Or it could have been an internal hit job. Or a mixture of any or all.
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June 29, 2013 9:01am
Judith

Pete George (18,078) Says:
June 29th, 2013 at 9:01 am

Never underestimate the cunning of the old fox.
Winston is a very perceptive man – a simple comment that gets a bite allows one to know there is more on offer. A few more comments and a few more bites, and its not hard to put a story together and then snoop for info to back up that story.

I think Winston went fishing, got a bite. Winston’s analytical skills are pretty astute – I don’t think he initially had anything, although he has probably collect it by now, or at least part of it.
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June 29, 2013 9:04am
Judith

peterwn (2,239) Says:
June 29th, 2013 at 9:00 am
——————————-

Having a house full of technical stuff, this worries me. I have always believed that such things are covered. We have protectors on our TV and computer outlets, but would they be sufficient to protect against a surge like that?

It seems bizarre that the power authorities cannot prevent such surges from effecting homes/businesses etc.
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June 29, 2013 9:06am
OneTrack

“We have protectors on our TV and computer outlets, but would they be sufficient to protect against a surge like that?”

Not necessarily.

“It seems bizarre that the power authorities cannot prevent such surges from effecting homes/businesses etc.”

How much equipment do you want the power company to install at your place to completely eliminate “spikes” and how much are you willing to pay for it?
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June 29, 2013 9:21am
hj

The Money-Empathy Gap
New research suggests that more money makes people act less human. Or at least less humane.

people seen as obstacles… get rid of RMA

http://nymag.com/news/features/money-brain-2012-7/
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June 29, 2013 9:26am
Pete George

A very important aspect of the Henry inquiry is how much he overstepped in his investigation in what was a very low level leak.

John Key has made it clear he thought Henry should not have accessed some data.

How much more might Henry have overstepped? What other data has he sought. And who has helped him get it? And on what authority?

And why did Henry decide to turn a minor inquiry from which Key expected no result into an out of the ordinary attempt to find evidence and find a culprit – with a very narrow focus of inquiry.

In other words, out of all proportion to the misdemeanor, why has Henry specifically targeted Dunne and ignored other possibilities? And why and with whom has he overstepped his investigative powers, possibly illegally?
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June 29, 2013 9:35am
hj

Recomended read
http://www.resilience.org/stories/2013-06-28/learning-from-minamata-creating-high-level-well-being-for-local-communities-in-japan

the old Japs have their pluses and minuses. Tolerating illness is a minus – I had a friend who broke his arm skiing and rather than showing sympathy his Japanese missues packed a big sad.
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June 29, 2013 9:50am
peterwn

Judith and One Track

There is a means where much of the misery caused by power failures and many instances damage to appliances could be mitigated and that is to put the 11,000 and 33,000 volt lines underground in urban areas. The former Wellington MED made a policy decision to put its main urban 11,000 volt circuits underground (there were exceptions but these were dealt with by the 1960’s) when it re-built its network in the 1920’s, and took other precautions as ‘double arming’ its low voltage poles so the network could survive windy conditions. The former Hutt Valley Energy Board network was originally all overhead, but newer subdivisions and main feeder lines were undergrounded. In the late 1980’s the Board adopted a policy to underground all urban lines in a 10 – 15 year time frame. This work continued for several years (at a slower rate than intended) then fizzled out with ‘corporatisation’, etc in the late 1990’s.

I think lines companies would dearly want to underground all lines in urban areas but are faced with the problem that the Commerce Commission and Electricity authority are unlikely to agree to allow the lines companies to make a return on the investment required.

Most of the time, people bellyache for lower electricity prices so the climate is not generally conducive to undergrounding programmes. It is only after exceptional circumstances like the storm last week that people turn their minds to what can be done to improve things for the future. However after several months most people have forgotten the issue.
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June 29, 2013 9:51am
Judith

OneTrack (572) Says:
June 29th, 2013 at 9:21 am
How much equipment do you want the power company to install at your place to completely eliminate “spikes” and how much are you willing to pay for it?

Well, up until I read that article today, I actually thought my insurance covered such things. Of course I don’t want extra equipment stuffed through the house, anymore that I want to fork out money to pay for it – I thought insurance was all I needed.

Which is why I am asking questions – obviously its not enough – I guess unless I wish to spend copious amounts of money, then the only other way is to ensure the data I hold precious is constantly backed up and take the chance with everything else.
Thanks for your answer.
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June 29, 2013 9:55am
Reid

Not wanting to stir the religious pot, but I am genuinely interested in the Christian take on the sort of exploration detailed in this article.

How does the Bible describe outer space – especially beyond our solar system etc?

Judith why even ask the question? What are you expecting to hear? Just as a Christian I’m curious as to why you think the article would have any significance to me at all from a Christian perspective.

A very important aspect of the Henry inquiry is how much he overstepped in his investigation in what was a very low level leak.

One not particularly important aspect Pete is why you’re the only person in the universe who doesn’t seem to get that Dunne got his dick caught in the email system and then got so embarrassed about it he resigned rather than tell anyone about it and then, to top it all off and put paid to any questions anyone might have as to his integrity or honesty, he pretends to the voters he’s an innocent victim taking a stand on principle, thus proving to anyone with any political understanding whatsoever that he’s a total scumbag in every single way. And the not particularly important aspect Pete is that you’re the only voter who doesn’t see this. Everyone else saw it straight away even as the words tumbled out of his lying mouth as he announced his resignation. But you don’t see this and you seem to insist on filling up GD with your worthless recitals of Dunne’s innocence in the hope that someone else in the universe is as thick as you. But newsflash Pete. No-one else is. You’re the only one. So why not just quietly fade away on this matter and start talking about something else, because it”s getting a bit boring, night after night after night. The same windmill. All the time. Again and again. Suchlike and so forth. On and on and on and on. Etc.
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June 29, 2013 9:58am
joana

PG..
I think there is an article in today herald re the Henry inquiry. I thank at a glance , suggesting that Henry may have acted outside his defined boundaries..read it and see..You are much more interested in all this than I am.
Judith..
Winston was not perceptive re Horan..He was fooled by Horan…so none of us always get it right.
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June 29, 2013 10:02am
Longknives

“How does the Bible describe outer space – especially beyond our solar system etc?”

That is a moronic question. And typical of the sneering/mocking Atheist attitude…
Considering the Bible was written thousands of years ago etc etc
Oh Christ-why am I even bothering?
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June 29, 2013 10:03am
Judith

Judith why even ask the question? What are you expecting to hear? Just as a Christian I’m curious as to why you think the article would have any significance to me at all from a Christian perspective.

Because when I read the article it made me think of the very strict religious upbringing I had – in all those hours and years of religious instruction I don’t remember any reference to ‘space’ – it is just curiosity, that is all. Nothing sinister. I just thought there may have been reference and I’d not remembered it. Sorry for asking.
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June 29, 2013 10:03am
Griff

peterwn
Is there a readily available power surge device to protect your power supplies at the mains?
Lightning strike and coronal mass ejection can both cause spikes as well as transmission line faults
How much would this cost? installed?
.
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June 29, 2013 10:04am
Judith

Longknives (2,618) Says:
June 29th, 2013 at 10:03 am

Oh Christ-why am I even bothering?

———————————–

Strange, I thought the same thing when I read your reply 🙂
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June 29, 2013 10:07am
Longknives

And so it continues..

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/8858121/Bert-and-Ernie-outed-by-magazine

From the article- “Back in 2007, Sesame Workshop addresses the issue, saying: “[Bert and Ernie] are not gay, they are not straight, they are puppets. They do not exist below the waist.”
“[Bert and Ernie] were created to teach preschoolers that people can be good friends with those who are very different from themselves,” the statement said.”

This answer won’t be good enough for the likes of Hannah Spyksma and co- Surely Sesame Workshop are guilty of ‘Hate Speech’ against the Gay Community?
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June 29, 2013 10:09am
Judith

joana (1,831) Says:
June 29th, 2013 at 10:02 am

Winston was not perceptive re Horan..He was fooled by Horan…so none of us always get it right.

Good point. 🙂
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June 29, 2013 10:09am
Kea

That is a moronic question. And typical of the sneering/mocking Atheist attitude…
Considering the Bible was written thousands of years ago etc etc

If it was written by “god” it would make no difference how long ago it was written. It would also be our most accurate description of the universe, but it is not. And what it does say is wrong.

Face it. You are a devotee of a violent primitive cult from around Syria thousands of years ago that was imposed on Europeans by a Roman ruler. Get over yourself. Your ignorance is nothing to be proud of. You should be ashamed of yourself, if you had any decency.
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June 29, 2013 10:10am
mandk

Sadly, there are many perverts in the world.
The editor of the New Yorker is one of them.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/8858121/Bert-and-Ernie-outed-by-magazine
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June 29, 2013 10:13am
mandk

Longknives,
Sorry, I didn’t see your post before I put mine up.
But this stuff really makes me makes me nauseous. It’s the rape of innocence.
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June 29, 2013 10:20am
Reid

Because when I read the article it made me think of the very strict religious upbringing I had – in all those hours and years of religious instruction I don’t remember any reference to ‘space’ – it is just curiosity, that is all.

Perhaps if you’re curious you should forget about your upbringing and read the Bible as an adult, first of course genuinely asking God to grant you understanding. Otherwise you never will understand it, it will just be mere words to you. That’s the mistake some here have made, when they take various passages like say the leprosy treatments in Leviticus and triumphantly proclaim what a load of rubbish the entire 750,000 word book is, based on those few sentences. It often happens and it will keep happening. But you don’t have to do that Judith, if you don’t want to, is my point.

Lots of people who got pain out of their religious upbringing seem to have misinterpreted religion as a consequence. That’s just my observation in life, take that as you will. Personally I think such people make a great mistake since they consequently misunderstand the greatest question in life. Religion is bigger than your marriage and it’s bigger than your children. You’re talking about your immortal being. That’s what religion is.

However religion is not something you can understand as a child. You’re just not capable of formulating the concepts in your head. But to address your question about space, the Great Architect designed the universe and everything in it. This means He designed the laws of physics, DNA, every single thing you can bring in or conceive of through your senses, He first designed then created. So even if (and when) we find other civilisations in space, which I’m fully expecting to find, so what?

Only fools hallucinate science and religion are incompatible. There is nothing incompatible about them in any way. Science merely uncovers the work of the Great Architect. And sometimes science is deliberately led down a misleading path by guess who? That’s all part of the plan. As revealed in the Bible. And if you don’t understand what I’m talking about, then read it, using the technique I suggested in my first sentence, and He will reveal the truth.
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June 29, 2013 10:24am
Longknives

Kea- Two points:

Firstly- I am not a practicing Christian, I just don’t like sneering, smug Atheists..
And secondly- Christians don’t claim the Bible was ‘written by God’, it was written by men, thousands of years ago.
Hence their rather limited knowledge of modern space exploration….
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June 29, 2013 10:27am
peterwn

Griff – there are surge protection devices available which allegedly protect against most incidents. However, a device to protect against very serious incidents (eg a lightning strike or those involving 110,000 or 220,000 volt grid lines) would be very costly and would not be completely effective.

Two examples.
1. Lightning hit a lightning conductor on a steeple of a church in England. The surge found it easier to ‘jump’ one metre and flow through church wiring than flow the rest of the way down the lightning conductor. It damaged the sound system and other equipment. I doubt that any surge protection device could have saved the equipment.

2. There was a spate of damaged electronic devices in a Newlands street about 20 years ago. The cause was initially a complete mystery. Some power board linemen were chatting with some grid linemen in a pub and heard that the roof of one of the houses in the street had lifted and touched a 110,000 volt wire of the pylons running overhead. They told their overseer the next day. The house was checked – the occupants had been put up in a motel by their insurers. Switches and powerpoints had been blown off the walls. There was a hole blown in the stainless steel kitchen sink. There was a hole blown in the metal cover of the junction box where the underground power cable entered the house. The energy then surged through the cables down the street damaging appliances and blowing diodes in the ‘load control’ contactors in the houses. While surge protection devices may have saved the appliances in some ot the houses, there is no way it could have saved appliances in the stricken house.
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June 29, 2013 10:30am
Kea

Longknives, good to know you believe in telling the truth, or as you call it, an “atheist”. A very unusual work “atheist”. We do not have special terms for people who do not believe in other superstitions and fictional things. It seems redundant.

I think most Christians consider the bible the word of God.
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June 29, 2013 10:33am
Pete George

Karl du Fresne writes about TWO PARTIES WOBBLING

It was good to see Peter Dunne looking defiant on TV3’s The Nation last weekend – or at least as defiant as a mild soul like Dunne is capable of looking.

Yes, he behaved stupidly, but it’s hard to disagree with his claim that he experienced an extreme form of muckraking. He could well attract sympathy after the hammering he’s taken. New Zealanders are fair-minded people and many would view the recent gang-up against him with distaste.

It’s a sad reflection on the state of politics that one of the least offensive people in Parliament should be the target of such malice. Apparently, we don’t like such people and relish a chance to bring them down.

Many voters dislike him because they see him as an opportunist – an each-way man, bending with the political current. But there’s another way of looking at him.

I see him as being anchored firmly at the dead centre of New Zealand politics. It’s the two major parties that wobble around ideologically as they scramble to capture the middle ground.

An interesting perception on who the opportunists and chameleons really are. At least Dunne is consistently in about the same place.

Du Fresne also states what everyone knows – it’s futile trying to get sense out of Winston Peters.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/columnists/karl-du-fresne/8850485/Having-words-with-Winston-wastes-time
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June 29, 2013 10:40am
Kea

Reid, there is no god and claiming there is, is not ok. It is called lying, not faith. And it is not a harmless indulgence either. If the sadistic depraved violence of the biblical christian god is not enough to make you sick, then the actions of its followers over the years will be.
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June 29, 2013 10:41am
Pete George

It’s ridiculous saying that anyone claiming there is a god is lying. Kea, who are you to say what ‘god” is to other people? I’ve got no doubt that God is very real in many people’s minds.

It would be lying saying you believed in god and you didn’t, or that you didn’t when you did. But stating a belief one has cannot be lying.
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June 29, 2013 10:48am
Dennis Horne

@Judith. I know a little about electrickery. Unplug everything during a storm. Electronics, not heaters…
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June 29, 2013 10:49am
Reid

Kea when I mentioned children and fools in my 10:24, you’re one of the people I had in mind, both times.

Pete, the point is, God exists, not as a concept in someone’s head, but as a real and present being. Sometimes people talk about God as if He would cease to exist if no-one on Earth believed in Him. This is a massive misconception that one should avoid at all costs, if accuracy in concept is important to one.
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June 29, 2013 10:59am
Kea

Dennis Horne , electrickery is the work of Lucifer ! You should get one of those foot drills. 🙂
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June 29, 2013 11:00am
Dennis Horne

@Kea. Eelectrickery comes from water, which belongs to the Morees. 🙂

But isn’t it funny how a clever engineer can’t give a simple answer: “Pull the plug”.
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June 29, 2013 11:06am
mandk

Kea: “there is no god and claiming there is, is not ok. It is called lying, not faith.”

Logic fail. Saying that there is no god is in itself a statement of faith because you cannot prove that God does not exist.
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June 29, 2013 11:08am
Dennis Horne

@Reid. God exists, not as a concept in someone’s head, but as a real and present being.

Reid, g’day. One of us is insane. I don’t care which. Maybe both.
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June 29, 2013 11:10am
Pete George

God exists, not as a concept in someone’s head, but as a real and present being..

No, that’s disputable, there is no evidence of such a real and present being.
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June 29, 2013 11:11am
wat dabney

“British Youth reject Religion…and more say religion is a force for evil than a force for good”

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/06/24/british-youth-reject-religion/

Oh no! Every time someone says they don’t believe in fairies, a fairy dies!
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June 29, 2013 11:21am
Reid

No, that’s disputable, there is no evidence of such a real and present being.

Crikey Pete are you really thick or are you just pretending? What I was saying was, if you care to debate the *concept* of God then you need to debate it with an accurate representation of the concept.

Of course, der, I wasn’t arguing for or against the concept, that should have been obvious. All I was saying was, this is the concept.

I mean, der.

British Youth reject Religion

Yes, when you need some deep thinking done on any particular subject, the people who really will help in that dept, are always the youth, of any nationality. I mean, everyone knows that, right?
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June 29, 2013 11:25am
cha

Unfortunately wat…

50% of U.S. residents find atheism “threatening” (second only to Brazil, where the number is slightly greater than half):

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/06/26/new-survey-50-of-americans-find-atheism-threatening/
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June 29, 2013 11:30am
wat dabney

“when you need some deep thinking done”

Because imagining the Tooth Fairy is “deep thinking” isn’t it.
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June 29, 2013 11:30am
wat dabney

Cha,

What that really means: ‘50% of U.S. residents find rational thinking “threatening” ‘
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June 29, 2013 11:33am
Andronicus

There once was a guy, Dennis Horne,
Who while not addicted to pawn,
Could get very dirty,
When he was shirty,
And his postings became very worn.
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June 29, 2013 11:33am
Reid

Because imagining the Tooth Fairy is “deep thinking” isn’t it.

No not particularly but the billions of words of theology in all the libraries in the world and done throughout the centuries by billions of minds is deep thinking wat.

Or had you forgotten all about that?

Or were you just pretending to the youth that such had never been done and there really haven’t been billions of minds who have spent billions of man-years collectively thinking about this subject and that such thinking really hasn’t produced billions of words in millions of books which right now exist in libraries all around the world and on the internet. And were you just thinking that maybe one or two of the youth might buy that if they happened to be the particularly thick youth? Is that what you were thinking wat? Rather callow of you, wasn’t it.
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June 29, 2013 11:34am
Pete George

if you care to debate the *concept* of God then you need to debate it with an accurate representation of the concept.

But there is not one concept of God, there are many varied concepts of God. So you can’t have one accurate representation of the concept.
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June 29, 2013 11:35am
Kea

mandk, why would you even imagine that god was real ? And why, out of all the thousands of gods invented, would you pick one particular god ?

The issue here is evidence. Either theists have evidence, or they are just making shit up to address their fears and give purpose to their short mortal lives.

If theism is based on evidence, then why are they so shy about producing that evidence ?
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June 29, 2013 11:39am
Griff

According to some estimates, there are roughly 4,200 religions in the world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

One in 4200 chance that YOUR spiritual views are right.
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June 29, 2013 11:43am
Dennis Horne

@Andronicus. Thanks mate. Pity the others can’t contribute some nonsense of value!
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June 29, 2013 11:44am
Reid

But there is not one concept of God, there are many varied concepts of God. So you can’t have one accurate representation of the concept.

That’s true Pete in the sense that when I see the colour blue it’s not the same colour blue that you are seeing even though we are looking at the same object. But in the sense that we can both see blue when it happens and discuss what a blue object looks like and whether or not the object is indeed blue, we can have a collective understanding of blue attributes.

And this is what I was explaining above re: one of God’s agreed attributes.

Pete, perhaps instead of blogging you could take up some university courses in your retirement. Can I suggest Epistemology 101 as a good starting point.

One in 4200 chance that YOUR spiritual views are right.

Griff religion and man’s practice of it are two different things.
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June 29, 2013 11:50am
mandk

Kea,
You’re missing my point, which is that you have no evidence that God does not exist.
Nor can you have evidence of such a thing.
Therefore, saying that God does not exist is a statement of faith.
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June 29, 2013 11:54am
Kea

Reid, was that a sneaky attempt to claim that all those gods are really one god and imply all the thousands of religions are worshiping the same god in different ways ?

Because that is very dishonest and total bullshit. Instead of telling people what to think, how about providing the evidence and let people decide for themselves ?
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June 29, 2013 11:56am
cha

Indeed wat, same claptrap – different millennium.

Do not suppose the statements of the prophets to be true; they are all fabrications. Men lived comfortably till they came and spoiled life. The sacred books are only such a set of idle tales as any age could have and indeed did actually produce.

آل ما ʿ المعري
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June 29, 2013 12:00pm
Kea

mandk, yes heard all that before. It is an argument that appeals to those who think they are smarter than they are.

Non belief is not a belief. It is up to someone making a claim [there is a god] to provide the evidence to support the claim.

Believing in something without evidence is idiotic and try to put a buck both ways with statements about how we can not prove god does not exist is intellectual cowardice and gutless. It is not wise or profound.
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June 29, 2013 12:05pm
Pete George

when I see the colour blue it’s not the same colour blue that you are seeing even though we are looking at the same object. But in the sense that we can both see blue when it happens and discuss what a blue object looks like and whether or not the object is indeed blue, we can have a collective understanding of blue attributes.

But that’s quite different. We may or may not have different perceptions of what the colour blue is but we are perceiving a precisely defined part of the visible spectrum – frequency 606–668 THz and wavelength 450–495 nm.

Unlike for any real being none of us can say what colour God is, let alone how we see that colour. Or if there is a colour associated with God. To some God may be pink, to others translucent, and others may not think of God in relation to wavelengths at all.
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June 29, 2013 12:07pm
Reid

Reid, was that a sneaky attempt to claim that all those gods are really one god and imply all the thousands of religions are worshiping the same god in different ways ?

No it’s a simple statement that anyone who understands religious truth would know. The fact you hallucinate it’s something like that speaks volumes as to your towering arrogance and ignorance on the subject. Are there any bounds to your foolishness and pride in this subject? It’s just often you get someone whose one or the other, not that often you get someone like you whose both profoundly ignorant and roaringly arrogant, in that you *think* you know what you’re talking about and you *refuse* to accept wisdom that contradicts your ignorance. It’s very tiresome.

But re: this, it’s a simple fact Kea that religious people have a personal relationship with God. Only fools and idiots who look at it from the outside conflate this relationship with the doctrine of their professed religion. Those with understanding know and recognise there is a difference. Those with wisdom discern what that difference is. This is what I was referring to.

Believing in something without evidence is idiotic and try to put a buck both ways with statements about how we can not prove god does not exist is intellectual cowardice and gutless. It is not wise or profound.

The evidence is all around you Kea. Consider how a tree is clothed in leaves. How the soil produces food. How the planets move with such precision. There are a million processes happening all around you right now which give evidence of the divine presence. But it’s over to the wise to discern. People filled with roaring arrogance and profound foolishness will never see it. Perhaps you should look in the mirror and think about that, Kea.

I tire of you mate, I won’t be following you up on this anymore today, you’re not worth it.
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June 29, 2013 12:19pm
wat dabney

“the billions of words of theology in all the libraries in the world and done throughout the centuries by billions of minds is deep thinking”

What exactly is “deep” about it, Reid?

Arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of pin is not “deep thinking.”

Concocting legalistic arguments justifying the burning of heretics is not “deep thinking.”

Uncritically swallowing the content of a book of fairy tales with talking animals and magic is not “deep thinking.”

If you think it’s deep, wait till you read The Beano mate. It’ll blow your socks off.
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June 29, 2013 12:19pm
wikiriwhis business

**BREAKING** A friendly New Jersey assembly member just passed along the news that the anti-gun NJ Bill S2467 / A3668 was VETOED by Governor Christie today. Thank you to the thousands of people who took action at FPC! WE CAN DO THIS – KEEP UP THE PRESSURE at http://www.firearmspolicy.org/.
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June 29, 2013 12:20pm
Kea

No it’s a simple statement that anyone who understands religious truth would know. The fact you hallucinate it’s something like that speaks volumes as to your towering arrogance and ignorance on the subject.

“Religious truth” that is a contradiction of terms. You do not “understand” anything. You lie, even to yourself. You simply want to believe as you lack the guts to face reality. As for hallucinations… you are the one believing in mystical being without a shred of evidence.

You are a liar. You are not mistaken, you do not have a different belief to me, you are simply a liar. You know dam well god is not real but you are too arrogant and fear filled to accept the reality.
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June 29, 2013 12:25pm
Griff

Griff has just invented a new god
He is the one and only true prophet of his god
As you can not prove Griffs god does not exist he exists according to those with their own personal Jesus zombie.
Griff then demands that YOU live your life according to all and any pronouncements of his god.
First announcement of Griff the prophet is
Anyone who claims Griffs god doesn’t exist is a sinner making up lies who is destined for eternal torment.
Have a happy day.
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June 29, 2013 12:27pm
publicwatchdog

Hi Kiwibloggers!

Seen this?

Auckland Mayoral candidate Penny Bright supports this Public Meeting Saturday 29 June 7 – 9pm: “Doctors present the case to end fluoridation”.

“As an Auckland Mayoral candidate – I am opposed to the fluoridation of public drinking water supplies, and encourage folks to come tonight, and hear for themselves, doctors who will present the case to end fluoridation.”

https://www.facebook.com/events/393600607426474/permalink/404700832983118/

DOCTORS PRESENT THE CASE TO END FLUORIDATION
– Sat 29th June 7pm – 9pm
Freemans Bay Community Centre
52 Hepburn St
Freemans Bay

http://www.eventfinder.co.nz/venue/auckland-freemans-bay-community-hall

“It really concerns me that those who have consideredopinions opposing the fluoridation of public drinking water supplies based on FACTS and EVIDENCE – are being dismissedas ‘anti-fluoride nutters’, by others who cannot provide the
‘science’ to support their ‘pro-fluoride’ views.”

“IS the ‘science’ settled on the issue of fluoridation of public drinking water supplies?”

“The popular myth and legend is that fluoridation of publicdrinking water supplies, helps to protect the teeth of poorer
people who can’t afford dental care.

Is this true?

Does the fluoridation of public drinking water supplies help protect ‘public health’?

Or not?

Can the stated opinions Ministry of Health, and District Health Boards be trusted, regarding the fluoridation of public drinking
water supplies?”

“FYI – I have previously done some some hundreds of hours of research on the use of the Waikato river as a ‘raw’ source of drinking water for the Auckland region.

During this process, I discovered some alarming FACTS and EVIDENCE that caused me to question just how much the
both the Ministry of Health, and Watercare Services can be trusted when it comes to safeguarding public health, and
public drinking water supplies.

If you want to read this research yourself – it’s available here:

(If you dare).

It’s a SHOCKER! ”

http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/?page_id=152

Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation’ campaigner
2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate
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June 29, 2013 12:30pm
Kea

All HAIL the Great GRIFF !!!

1. Shall I kill something in your honour ?

2. Will you torture us for all forever in hell to show how much you love us ?

3. What shall I do with the non-believers ?
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June 29, 2013 12:31pm
mandk

Kea,
You still don’t get it.
You presented your non-belief as a statement of fact “there is no god”.
For myself, I neither claimed that God exists, nor that He does not exist. You can, of course infer what my position is.
And why do you need to resort to abuse, if your position is so intellectually robust?
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June 29, 2013 12:33pm
peterwn

Hey Penny Bright!

1. Do you want Auckland kids to have rotten teeth, lots of trips to the murder house and dentures by 21? This was the norm 60-70 years ago.

2. The fluoride introduced into Auckland (and other NZ) water supplies is less than naturally occurring fluoride in drinking water consumed by millions of people on earth. Have these people suffered ill effects? No!
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June 29, 2013 12:35pm
Griff

for further enlightenment send five dollars to the church of the unrepentant sinner.

The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history.

-Lazarus Long, Time Enough for Love
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June 29, 2013 12:37pm
wat dabney

“ For myself, I neither claimed that God exists, nor that He does not exist ”

What you should have said is “For myself, I neither claimed that gods exist, nor that they don’t exist.”

You are arguing here that belief in Yahweh and any other deity is in a par with belief in Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny or any other fantastic and magical creature that anyone could every propose.

No disagreement about that.

It comes down to a question of what’s reasonable to believe.

It is rational to believe in the East Bunny?
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June 29, 2013 12:42pm
Kea

mandk I will abuse you any time I like. It says nothing about the merit of my argument.

You can not “prove” I am not Jesus christ. You can not prove that I do not have a nest of magic dragons in my garden. But you do not have evidence to support those claims. If someone asked you if Kea was Jesus christ and had a next of magic dragons, would you seriously say you “did not know” ?

The fact is people only take that sort of position on the existence of god. They do not tend to do so with other fantastic unsupported claims. It is not arrogant or closed minded, it is garden variety common sense.

I do see your point, but I am confident of saying there is not god. To prove me wrong, you would need to produce evidence of god and that will never happen.
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June 29, 2013 12:43pm
Scott Chris

But there is not one concept of God, there are many varied concepts of God. So you can’t have one accurate representation of the concept.

Crikey Pete’s gettin’ philosophical. Same thing applies to trees. There is no One True Tree.

Ask Plato
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June 29, 2013 12:47pm
niggly

Auckland Mayoral candidate Penny Bright ….

Hey Penny, please tell the voters of Auckland … if you were succesful in your campaign to become Mayor , please tell us all whether and how you will work with the Govt & John Key and local MP’s (such as John Banks), in the same way as Len Brown does, or will you antagonise them still?

Eg like the way you do with your anti- John Banks campaigns.

Or are you prepared to swallow dead rats? 🙂
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June 29, 2013 12:49pm
Redbaiter

Of all of the odious repellent cowardly examples of humanity found on GD, it is notable that the worst of them frequently profess atheism to be their religion.
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June 29, 2013 12:54pm
mandk

Ok Kea, I’ll try it one more time.
I state my position as a matter of faith because I cannot prove God exists.
You, however, state your position as a matter of fact although you cannot prove that God does not exist.
Let’s talk about something else now.
What about killing pre-born babies?
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June 29, 2013 12:56pm
Pete George

Of all the stupid buggers found on GD, it is not notable that the stupidest of them claims that atheism is a religion.
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June 29, 2013 12:57pm
Griff

Penny Tarnish polls lower than Blank.
Votes caste for her represent only random chance.
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June 29, 2013 12:58pm
Scott Chris

Is it possible that a human may one day create an artificial intelligence that is self-aware.

If so, would the artificial intelligence be wrong in calling his human creator God?

In which case, doesn’t that prove that the existence of God is possible?
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June 29, 2013 12:59pm
Kea

Red, you angry little retard. Atheism is not a belief and telling the truth is not a “religion”. Just like not collecting stamps is not a hobby.

You really lack the intellect for these discussions and I think you should shut the fuck up, or confine yourself to calling people nasty names. 🙂
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June 29, 2013 1:00pm
Kea

mandk, Yes I see your point and as an intellectual exercise I agree with it. My point is that people only tend to do this when referring to god. In a similar way we have a special name for not believing in god [atheist] but we do not have one for not believing in most other things.

Let’s talk about something else now.
What about killing pre-born babies?

I am all for it. It should be free and on demand. There are two things we do not need more of:

1. Unwanted kids.

2. More people in the world.

Abortion helps with both those problems. I admire pre-born baby killers, just like I admire those who look after their born babies well.
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June 29, 2013 1:06pm
Redbaiter

If atheism is not a religion then why are so many of its followers found here preaching its benefits every day with a zealotry and vigour and commitment that frequently far exceeds the enthusiasm of Christians for Christianity?
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June 29, 2013 1:07pm
liarbors a joke

the ex car salesman Dime has dropped whores in favour of bicycles..

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/8855168/Man-caught-having-sex-with-bike
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June 29, 2013 1:08pm
Scott Chris

the stupidest of them claims that atheism is a religion

Depends how you define ‘religion’.

Does holding atheist views require a leap of faith?

Does believing in something equate to religiosity?

Is a religion simply a belief system that many people have in common?

If so, then one could loosely call atheism a religion.
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June 29, 2013 1:12pm
Kea

If atheism is not a religion then why are so many of its followers found here preaching its benefits every day with a zealotry and vigour and commitment that frequently far exceeds the enthusiasm of Christians for Christianity?

We believe in telling the truth. Got it ?

Is your daily zealotry over what you consider “conservative” values, a religion too ?

You really are not a great thinker, are you ?
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June 29, 2013 1:17pm
Pete George

“Religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to the supernatural, and to spirituality.”

I don’t think there’s anything organised about atheism, nor is it related to the supernatural or spirituality.

Atheism is not a ‘truth’ either.
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June 29, 2013 1:21pm
Redbaiter

“We believe in telling the truth. Got it ?”

Clearly the conceptual contradiction of “believing” in a truth completely escapes you. I guess you have to be a really great thinker to miss that. Is such a “belief” a strict requirement of your religion of atheism?
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June 29, 2013 1:26pm
Kea

Scott Chris. Atheism is the default setting we are born with. Denying that something exists, for which there is no evidence, is not the same as having a belief. It is an entirely neutral position.

If you know that someone does not believe in the mythical beings invented by bronze age desert dwellers thousands of years ago, you can not predict that persons beliefs on any other topic. It is not a belief system or a philosophy.

Cultists seem to forget that atheists are just being honest. What do the theists expect atheists to do ? They can not suddenly “believe” in what they know is false and for which there is not shred of evidence. Assuming that atheists would want to worship a genocidal, baby killing, mass murdering, torturing, raping and enslaving, vicious god.
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June 29, 2013 1:27pm
Kea

Red, the fact you would defend, or even fail to speak out against, the followers of a brutal violent cult, tells me all I need to know about the sort of corrupted and broken person you are.
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June 29, 2013 1:29pm
SGA

@ Scott Chris at 1:12 pm
Is a religion simply a belief system that many people have in common?
If so, then one could loosely call atheism a religion.

“If A then B”
does not necearrily mean that
“If B then A”

“Religion is a belief system that many people have in common”
does not necessarily mean that
“Belief systems that many people have in common are religions”
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June 29, 2013 1:31pm

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