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June 14, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 14 June 2013

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General Debate

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b1gdaddynz

First?
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June 14, 2013 8:04am
jaba

David Shearer just told Marcus Lush that he wished all of his MP’s were as good as Goff, King and Cosgrove .. his forgot Faafoi
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June 14, 2013 8:04am
Pete George

All parties may have problems proving legitimate party membership numbers. The Electoral Commission doesn’t regard online applications as valid. And parties with long time members may not have signed applications that comply,

Electoral Commission curve ball – all parties beware!

Details: Electoral Act on party membership
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June 14, 2013 8:10am
Chuck Bird

I see Sweden has put a complete ban on bestiality. I wonder what the libertarians think of that.
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June 14, 2013 8:10am
James Stephenson

@Chuck – I don’t think it’s any different from any other legislation against animal cruelty.
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June 14, 2013 8:15am
martinh

Shearer and Labour are even worse than i imagined.
Nothing like this to remind me of Len Brown ranting on about his love for the poor of south auckland while all the time secretly making them pay for his lunches on his work creditcard.
This is a- i dont care we have no career prospects move
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June 14, 2013 8:16am
Harriet

“…..David Shearer just told Marcus Lush that he wished all of his MP’s were as good as Goff, King and Cosgrove .. his forgot Faafoi…..”

Well ain’t that setting a fucken low standard! 😎

“…………”First, were we truly men of courage … the courage to resist public pressure, as well as private greed?

“Secondly, were we truly men of judgment … with enough wisdom to know that we did not know, and enough candor to admit it?

“Third, were we truly men of integrity — men who never ran out on either the principles in which they believed or the people who believed in them …

“Finally, were we truly men of dedication … devoted solely to serving the public good and the national interest.”…” – JFK

I just wish that John Key was as good as JFK. 😎
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June 14, 2013 8:16am
Manolo

Headline “news” according to that lousy paper, the DomPost: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/8794092/Grieving-mums-despair-at-sons-cross-theft
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June 14, 2013 8:23am
Manolo

Disgraceful. The NZ Police join forces with the wowsers, do-gooders and social engineers:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/8794387/Curbs-on-bars-would-cut-crime-say-police
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June 14, 2013 8:29am
Chuck Bird

@James. It was previously legal in Sweden provided it did not involve cruelty.
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June 14, 2013 8:31am
Kea

Manolo (10,148) Says:

June 14th, 2013 at 8:29 am
Disgraceful. The NZ Police join forces with the wowsers, do-gooders and social engineers:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/8794387/Curbs-on-bars-would-cut-crime-say-police

The police are cleary over resourced and over staffed. Increasingly we are seeing them taking time off police work to campaign for all sorts of nanny state restrictions on the people they are employed to serve. A good example is the police pouring time and money into legal highs. They seem to think that our democratically elected representatives should not make law, instead the police know whats best for us all. Sadly there are too many in this country who grovel and worship at the feet of “authority”. Those people should just hire a hooker to live out their fantasies and leave the rest of us alone.
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June 14, 2013 8:38am
Harriet

“…….Sadly there are too many in this country who grovel and worship at the feet of “authority”. Those people should just hire a hooker to live out their fantasies and leave the rest of us alone…..”

Fuck that was worth repeating. 😎
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June 14, 2013 8:42am
peterwn

Pete – IMO the Electoral Commission is wrong and its requirement for written membership applications would be overturned by the courts. The more immediate problems for NZ First would be the cost of litigation and delays to re-registration. however an injunction against the Commission may well succeed (on the balance of convenience) be speedy and not too expensive. This would probably be sufficient for the Commission to reconsider the matter.

The Commission in setting its requirements needed to take into consideration the way parties traditionally signed up members. To try and force a sudden change of procedure which would cause genuine difficulties to parties would probably be a ‘Wednesbury’ unreasonableness. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Provincial_Picture_Houses_v_Wednesbury_Corporation

Incidentally Commission’s requirement would cause National little inconvenience – all it has to do is sort out 500 written membership forms paid by credit card. Admittedly the Commission’s report would look silly saying National had (say) 501 members which would no doubt cause much mirth and glee among its opponents.
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June 14, 2013 8:42am
Pete George

peterwn – thanks.

Yes, I can’t see a problem with National. While many members will probably predate written applications there will be enough recent applications to cover the numbers.

Labour’s affiliates wouldn’t count unless they have individually signed membership applications.

Greens apparently have a high number of online members so could find it hadrer to get 500 that comply with the EC.

I think the main issue is not who’s got the numbers but what is a fair and resonable requirement of proof for both new and registered parties.
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June 14, 2013 8:52am
Whafe

I am stuck for words in just how to explain the extreme hypocrisy of the Liabour Party.. They know no boundaries…

When exactly are the MSM going to see this for what it is and take them apart?
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June 14, 2013 8:55am
Pete George

peterwn – did you write NZ First in error?

There will be many members of all parties who don’t comply with the EC requirements. For example Peter Dunne won’t have signed an application recently, nor would Bill English, Winston Peters or Phil Goff.
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June 14, 2013 8:59am
Kleva Kiwi

Whafe

The MSM already do see it, and they contribute to it more often than not.
Current MSM is part of the problem and can be considered an extension of the Left
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June 14, 2013 9:02am
Whafe

Totally agree Kleva Kiwi…. I am coming from the view point that if the MSM continue to think that we do not see their biased media reporting towards the left, they are going to turn up with more thna eggs on their faces…

The MSM’s blatent love of Liabour + Green Taliban is discusting
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June 14, 2013 9:11am
Pete George

Funny – I regularly see as much certainty express at The Standard that the MSM is horrendously biased towards National and the right.
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June 14, 2013 9:16am
Scott Chris

All parties may have problems proving legitimate party membership numbers. The Electoral Commission doesn’t regard online applications as valid. And parties with long time members may not have signed applications that comply,

Who the fuck cares? You’re flogging a dead horse.
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June 14, 2013 9:28am
Pete George

The horse has hardly got out of the starting gate yet.

And a few people do seem to care, judging by some of the reactions. Party membership something that some seem to prefer left under the carpet.

Labour and Winston Peters have made an issue out of it by trying to deny United Future any rights as a party in Parliament. So if some light shines back on their own membership then too bad.

And it’s an important issue for anyone trying to register a new party. Standards of proof of membership should be fair and reasonable.
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June 14, 2013 9:38am
Harriet

Let me try it out: 😎

“Rape is a fact of life. We must ensure that it is safe, legal, and rare.

To do this, we should provide more rape clinics, discard restrictions on the age of the rape vessel, and ensure that a man can never be prosecuted for a rape.
We mustn’t shame men for their choice to rape women. It’s their bodies, after all. No one should tell them what they can and can’t do with their bodies.
As a woman, I could never understand what it’s like to be desperate and have no real choice but to rape. It’s not an easy decision, and we mustn’t shame men by protesting against rape. Those who protest against rape and intimidate men about their choice ought to be arrested.
We need special access zones so that men can rape without being harassed about what’s just a basic biological procedure.
Hotels that have a conscientious objection to men raping women in their rooms should have mandatory referral obligations, and all federal government properties should be forced to provide rape rooms.

Schools should also offer a curriculum that covers rape.”

Convinced? 😎

As if having a uterus magically turns women into moral arbiters and men into slaves bereft of opinions.

It seems women’s rights includes the right to talk utter nonsense and be treated as a great thinker. 😎

I can already hear the howls of outrage. How dare I compare rape, which is intrinsically wrong, to abortion, which some seem to think is a fundamental human right? I suppose I dare because I think for myself.

I don’t accept abortion as a right any more than I accept rape as a right.

Indeed, rape is easier to comprehend, because at least the rape victim isn’t usually one’s own child.

Forget the “my body, my choice” mantra. It’s your child, your responsibility.

A real woman doesn’t respond to unanticipated motherhood by killing her child, and a society worth its salt doesn’t accord her the legal right to do so.

Being a woman doesn’t give you any more right to kill than a man. That’s equality.

http://mishkagora.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/the-abortion-of-reason/

Pete George hates rape culture…..and tolerates abortion!

Anyone else here want to out yourselves as metro sexual moral cowards? Thought not! 😎
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June 14, 2013 9:44am
calendar girl

Is this the same Electoral Commission that we expect soon will be enabling online voting?

Luddites.
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June 14, 2013 9:49am
Kea

Harriet , was that post an attempt to link abortion and rape as some how equivalent ?

How do you consider those women who got pregnant through rape ?
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June 14, 2013 9:55am
Lipo

Did this comment from John Key give you a Yeah Right moment
I can’t see how it can be business

“It is believed the Mr Faafoi and Mr Cosgrove used taxpayer-funded flights to get to Auckland for the game.

Mr Key said this wasn’t unheard of.

“MPs do fly to rugby matches and the argument can always be is that actually business.””

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10890361
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June 14, 2013 10:03am
Harriet

“…..How do you consider those women who got pregnant through rape ?….”

Well Kea……….they don’t know for several weeks that they are carrying a baby.

Does it then matter if they carry it full term….maybe adopt it out………and continue on in life as a rape victim.

Or

Carry the baby a few more weeks………abort it……….and continue on in life as a rape victim.

Do two wrongs make a right Kea? 😎

Does killing a baby make it easier as a rape victim Kea? 😎
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June 14, 2013 10:05am
ignant_immigant

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8794722/Family-gathers-to-farewell-shot-man

Why is this news exactly? Some guy tries to burgle a Golf Club. Shoots at Cops, gets shot. For some reason get spress coverage for his funeral. WTF?

“As some of the boys said, he’s a warrior. He was a warrior in terms of his friendship and love that he gave to his work colleagues, and he just went out of his way to help.”

What about the people he robbed and tried to kill, guess he was just a cunt to them?
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June 14, 2013 10:07am
liarbors a joke

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/8795758/Fee-for-mail-delivery-an-option

So there will be an accompanying reduction in the price of your postage stamp since part of the cost of delivery is in that purchase?

Who thinks of these stupid ideas. If NZ Post are so short of money , start flicking the bludgers at the top , unnecessary managers , paper shufflers , wankey ceo’s.
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June 14, 2013 10:10am
kowtow

Labour in the corporate boxes?

Of course they are.

They’re no more in touch with the working class man than anyone else in the Elite Political Class.

They just pretend. Make the right noises at the right time .Rest of the year, it’s ,how’s my property portfolio going,my shares and bond holdings,my gold plated pension and huge salary………

Not a cloth cap in sight.
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June 14, 2013 10:24am
dishy

Agree, kowtow.

We can’t just call them prostitutes, because that would be unfair to normal prostitutes.

How about shameless, lying whores with elastic morals (if any)?
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June 14, 2013 10:29am
Manolo

I welcome the criminal’s farewell. We need more of those events.
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June 14, 2013 10:33am
Kleva Kiwi

Was this you Dime?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/oddstuff/8796118/Being-an-ugly-prostitute-isn-t-a-crime
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June 14, 2013 10:35am
Longknives

“Was fatally shot by police at the New Plymouth Golf Club last week during what was believed to be a botched burglary.”

The loser was fatally shot during a fucking shoot-out with Police, a bit more than a “Botched Burglary”!
Hannah Fleming you are a disgrace to journalism- if indeed you are actually a real journalist and not some star-struck gang moll (because quite frankly that’s how it reads Hannah)..
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June 14, 2013 10:45am
OneTrack

“As some of the boys said, he’s a warrior…..” – maybe “warrior” doesn’t mean the same to me, and my dictionary, as it does to them?
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June 14, 2013 10:47am
Kea

Does killing a baby make it easier as a rape victim Kea?

Harriet, Ask a rape victim.

Personally I think it is a pretty disgustion proposition that a woman should have to carry her rapists baby just so religious inspired zealots can feel good about themselves.

How about shameless, lying whores with elastic morals (if any)?

dishy, got her number ? 🙂
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June 14, 2013 10:48am
publicwatchdog

Good moaning Kiwibloggers! 🙂

Giving Sean Plonker another serve on his facebook page:
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Did you ever bother to hear this interview Sean?

http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Fluoride-to-be-removed-from-Hamiltons-water-supply/tabid/506/articleID/35857/Default.aspx

Have you yet bothered to READ any of the RESEARCH upon which people are basing their anti-fluoride position?

Such as this new study in the Journal of Environmental and Public Health which delivers a significant blow to fluoridation:

“..chronic effects of fluoride involve alterations in the chemical activity of calcium by the fluoride ion. Natural calcium fluoride with low solubility and toxicity from ingestion is distinct from fully soluble toxic industrial fluorides …”

“Industrial fluoride ingested from treated water enters saliva at levels too low to affect dental caries. Blood levels during lifelong consumption can harm heart, bone, brain, and even developing teeth enamel.

The widespread policy known as water fluoridation is discussed in light of these findings. ….”

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jeph/2013/439490/

Or are you just intellectually lazy?

Either that – or you’re just a political HACK?

(Meant of course in a caring way 😉

Either way Sean, you are SO coming across as a ‘flat earth nutter’ yourself – when you continue to personally attack those who can point to FACTS and EVIDENCE to back up their considered opinions to oppose the fluoridation of public drinking water supplies, and you cannot?

A bit of ‘projection’ happening here perhaps?

Kind regards,

Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption /anti-privatisation’ campaigner

2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate
____________________________________________________________________________________________

http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/?page_id=152
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June 14, 2013 10:53am
Manolo

An incredible article on the criminal. How low has sunk journalism in NZ when such crap can be printed!
To exult the life of such crook is a shame on the discredited profession.
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June 14, 2013 10:53am
Longknives

110% agree Manolo.
And what a kick in the guts for any Police involved in this shootout, or any incidents of this nature in the future- knowing that Ms Fleming will write a drooling article almost canonising the guy who was trying to murder them..

I am writing to Stuff ‘Editor’ (if such a person exists) as we speak to express my disgust…
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June 14, 2013 11:07am
Harriet

Kea#

“……Does killing a baby make it easier as a rape victim Kea?

Harriet, Ask a rape victim.

Personally I think it is a pretty disgustion proposition that a woman should have to carry her rapists baby just so religious inspired zealots can feel good about themselves……”

Jeez arn’t you being your usual fuckwit self:

“….I think it is a pretty disgustion proposition……carry her rapists baby…”

But Kea – you have just told us this:

Kea (5,087) Says:
June 14th, 2013 at 8:19 am

scrubone, the figures were based on people, not collections of cells and fluid.

Vote: 4 5

– THAT’S LESS THAN 2 HOURS AGO!

You’ve just fucken cornered yourself ! 😎
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June 14, 2013 11:07am
Fletch

Harriet, Ask a rape victim.

Personally I think it is a pretty disgustion proposition that a woman should have to carry her rapists baby just so religious inspired zealots can feel good about themselves.

Not saying it is an easy thing – in fact it sounds a completely awful thing to happen to anyone. Hard for a male to comprehend.
Has anyone ever asked the women though? Turns out they have – in a book called Victims and Victors: Speaking Out About Their Pregnancies, Abortions, and Children Resulting from Sexual Assault

In the book 192 women who were rape victims are interviewed and most that had abortion say it was the wrong decision. None of the women who kept the baby regretted it.
Something to think about anyway.
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June 14, 2013 11:10am
Fletch

So, the Egyptian leadership was caught on camera saying that America and Israel are the enemies – they didn’t know their meeting was being recorded and televised.

Last week, Morsi gathered a group of Egypt’s political leaders, including members of his cabinet and the legislature for a meeting to discuss ways to stop a Nile dam project being undertaken by Ethiopia.

Apparently under the impression that the meeting was being kept secret, a number of the politicians called the dam plans a secret project of America and Israel. They also discussed ways to destroy the dam and possibly funding an insurgency in Ethiopia.

Unfortunately for the Egyptian leadership, the meeting was being broadcast live on a state-run channel, and the transcript was later translated into English by the Middle East Media and Research Institute, according to a New York Times blog.

Before being informed that the meeting was being transmitted, Islamic Labor Party Chairman Magdi Ahmad Hussein said everybody at the meeting must vow not to leak information to the media.

“I’m very fond of battles,” Hussein said. “With the enemies, of course, with America and Israel, but this battle must be waged with maximum judiciousness and calm. Even though this is a secret meeting we must all take an oath not to leak anything to the media unless it is done officially by Sister Pakinam (el-Sharkawy, a Morsi aide). We need an official plan for popular national security, even if we did …”

At that point, someone comes from off-screen and hands him a note, presumably about the broadcast, by Hussein doubles down: “O.K. Fine. It’s good that you told me. The principles behind what I’m saying are not really secret. Our battle is with America and Israel, not with Ethiopia. Therefore, engaging in battle, this is my opinion. …”

Morsi then announces that the meeting is being televised, and laughter erupts around the conference table.

And still, Hussein couldn’t bring himself to shut up: “I say to the Egyptian people: Nobody can turn off your water supply – unless they want to turn the Egyptians into the world’s most extremist people. Imagine what this people would do if its water were turned off – what all 80 million of us would do to Israel and America if our water were turned off.”

These are the same people Obama just gave $1.3 billion. WTF is wrong with him? Is he just stupid or traitorous?
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June 14, 2013 11:14am
Harriet

C’mon Kea…tell us if they are babies or cells!

You’ve said they are both!

How’s all those splinters in your arse from sitting on PG’s fence? 😎
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June 14, 2013 11:15am
nasska

Be careful how you answer the nutter Kea, otherwise we’ll have a 300 comment long GD gunked up with religious semantics about when a sperm & an egg change from an omelet to a person.
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June 14, 2013 11:16am
kowtow

Family gathers to farewell shot man.

Two comments.On the stuff site leading to that is a horoscope.

Today’s reading .”If you do go to burgle someones’ property tonight armed with a shotgun,expect a violent and unprofitable outcome”.

And once again the overt display of Aotearoan public violence…….a hakas and “warriors”.

I’m amazed the political establishment elite refuse to see the connections.
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June 14, 2013 11:21am
Kea

Harriet (1,924) Says:

June 14th, 2013 at 11:15 am
C’mon Kea…tell us if they are babies or cells!

A bag of cells and fluid. Based on your construction I am sitting on a couple of bags of babies.
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June 14, 2013 11:21am
Harriet

“…..Be careful how you answer the nutter Kea…”

That’s a piss weak position Nasska!

Typical. 😎
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June 14, 2013 11:22am
Harriet

“….Personally I think it is a pretty disgustion proposition that a woman should have to carry her rapists bag of cells and fluid just so religious inspired zealots can feel good about themselves……”

“…Based on your construction I am sitting on a couple of bags of babies…”

So in your world it’s no big deal then to carry it full term – isn’t it!

Then it can be adopted out – like I’d already said. 😎
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June 14, 2013 11:27am
Kea

Abortion:

Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?

Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.

Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.

2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?

Infanticide:

1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless “suckling” infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.

Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.

Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.

The murdering of children:

Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”

Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.

Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”

2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”

Judges 19:24-29 “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.” To put it very bluntly this poor, young lady was murdered by her mate for being raped.

Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?

Exodus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents Joshua 8 God commanded the deaths of 12,000 men, women, and children of Ai. They were all slain in the ambush that was planned by god.

2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death.

Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”

1 Samuel 15:11-18 God repents of having made Saul king since Saul refused to carry out God’s commandments (i.e., Saul refused to murder all the innocent women and children.) At least god realizes what an immoral, murderous pig he is on this one.

I Kings 16:34 Laying the foundation for a city using your firstborn child and using your youngest son to set up the gates.

Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife.

Jeremiah 11:22-23 God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death.

Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.

Lamentations 2:20-22 God gets angry and mercilessly torments and kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.

http://www.evilbible.com/god's%20not%20pro-life.htm
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June 14, 2013 11:29am
mandk

nasska @ 11.16

even young children recognise that someone has lost the argument when they resort to abuse.
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June 14, 2013 11:34am
Harriet

Why on earth would you bring religion into it Kea?

I didn’t !!!!! 😎

BTW: Nasska now thinks your a nutter! 😎

And GRIFF HAhahahahhahahahahhah 😎
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June 14, 2013 11:34am
nasska

Shit….there’s some nasty stuff in that lot Kea…..are you sure it’s the same God who we’re told gets all upset about zygotes? 🙂
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June 14, 2013 11:35am
Kea

“…Based on your construction I am sitting on a couple of bags of babies…”

So in your world it’s no big deal then to carry it full term – isn’t it!

Then it can be adopted out – like I’d already said.

”

Don’t worry Harriet, I will be aborting them all tonight, with any luck 😉

nasska, yes that is the perfect word of god. Because he loves us !!!
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June 14, 2013 11:38am
Harriet

Damm….. here I was thinking you were just about to introduce Nationalism as a last resort into your arguemernt to give it more support.

…………due of course to the singular fact that nationalism is the last refuge of a scoundral……….. 😎
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June 14, 2013 11:47am
ignant_immigant

Kea,

You can’y just take the bits out of the Bible and attribute YOUR interpretation to the way modern Christians read it.

You know there was the whole New Covenant after the old testement, with Jesus, love peace, turnig cheeks and all that jazz?
That is the commonly accpeted Christian doctrine now. Christianity seemed to have moved on since the iron age, crazy, I know!

I don’t know why anyone engages you on the topic of religion, when you set up straw men, based on your incorrect understanding of modern christianity, knock them down, and then dance around in tiumph when local Christians can’t defend against it.

From the sidelines it is painfully obvious.
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June 14, 2013 11:48am
Fletch

Kea, what is the point of you cherry-picking verses from a sceptic site that are out of context or that you don’t understand?

To take but one verse Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”
God said no such thing. The writer of the verse is expressing his own feelings.

First, we must remember that the psalmist is a Jewish writer (not sure who as it does not say) who is embittered towards Babylon as the Babylonians ransacked the civilization of the Jewish people -taking them into captivity- and destroyed their once glorious temple. He may very well be hoping for the “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth” scenario.

This next point, is a key issue that I would like us to zero in on. There is no command or condoning of by God to do such a thing of the Babylonian children. One may object by saying “well this scripture is in the Bible”, but here’s what we must consider. These sentiments are the thoughts of a distressed man, and the Bible is merely recording what he said. Just because it’s written in there, doesn’t mean it’s to be construed as an endorsement from God.

He is likely referencing Isaiah’s prediction of the destruction of Babylon. His usage of dashing thy little ones against the stones is a term that would have been familiar to the ancients, meaning that Babylon would be utterly destroyed and left in ruin. This is the strongest language possible that he could have used to convey the destruction of a nation. Homer used similar language.

You’re looking at verses through the lens of today and without any context at all as to what was happening historically then.
If you’re going to be critical of the Bible, as least do some Bible study and not just google for verses you don’t like from sceptic sites that are taken out of context and appear to make your point.
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June 14, 2013 11:50am
Kea

ignant_immigant , bullshit. Don’t try those tired old arguments with me. I have forgotten more about the bible than you will ever learn.

JESUS SAID, he was there to enforce the laws of the old testament.

But I will play along with you.

1. In what context is it ok to kill babies. ?
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June 14, 2013 11:56am
Harriet

Kea seems to convenantly forget the Enlightenment.

And seperation of Church and State where the Church stays out of the sphere of State and that the State stays out of the sphere of Church.
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June 14, 2013 11:59am
ignant_immigant

I have forgotten more about the bible than you will ever learn.

If you say so mate, if you say so.

I’m not engaging with you, because I’ve been reading Kiwi blog for a number of years and I know how you operate. And personlay I don’t want a spoon of shit with my afternoon coffee, so I’ll just let it slide and pretend like you’ve convinced me and you know better.
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June 14, 2013 11:59am
Kea

Fletch,

1. Where in the New Testament does it change gods law for the treatment of menstruation women ?

2. Why are those laws any less valid today ?

3. Why did a perfect god change his mind ?

4. How do you know he has not stuffed up again ?

5. Why did god make those vile laws and command such terrible behaviour ?

6. If a person did those things today, would you consider them good and worship them ?
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June 14, 2013 12:00pm
Kea

ignant_immigant, no you will not engage me because you are a coward who just got his arse handed to him.

The sooner we wake up and start feeding you lot to the lions, the better.
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June 14, 2013 12:01pm
Fletch

So under the Obama administration, American citizens are allowed to be spied on, but Mosques are exempt (and are probably the places they should be looking).

Homeland Insecurity: The White House assures that tracking our every phone call and keystroke is to stop terrorists, and yet it won’t snoop in mosques, where the terrorists are.

That’s right, the government’s sweeping surveillance of our most private communications excludes the jihad factories where homegrown terrorists are radicalized.

Since October 2011, mosques have been off-limits to FBI agents. No more surveillance or undercover string operations without high-level approval from a special oversight body at the Justice Department dubbed the Sensitive Operations Review Committee.

Who makes up this body, and how do they decide requests? Nobody knows; the names of the chairman, members and staff are kept secret.

We do know the panel was set up under pressure from Islamist groups who complained about FBI stings at mosques. Just months before the panel’s formation, the Council on American-Islamic Relations teamed up with the ACLU to sue the FBI for allegedly violating the civil rights of Muslims in Los Angeles by hiring an undercover agent to infiltrate and monitor mosques there.

Before mosques were excluded from the otherwise wide domestic spy net the administration has cast, the FBI launched dozens of successful sting operations against homegrown jihadists — inside mosques — and disrupted dozens of plots against the homeland.

If only they were allowed to continue, perhaps the many victims of the Boston Marathon bombings would not have lost their lives and limbs. The FBI never canvassed Boston mosques until four days after the April 15 attacks, and it did not check out the radical Boston mosque where the Muslim bombers worshipped.

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/061213-659753-all-intrusive-obama-terror-dragnet-excludes-mosques.htm

The whole thing is politically correct and upside down. The U.S is spying on its own citizens and protecting the rights of those who are its enemies.
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June 14, 2013 12:02pm
Kea

Harriet (1,929) Says:

June 14th, 2013 at 11:59 am
Kea seems to convenantly forget the Enlightenment.

And seperation of Church and State where the Church stays out of the sphere of State and that the State stays out of the sphere of Church.

No Kea has not forgotten the Enlightment you clown.

I am happy for the Church to do its thing and stay out of the State. That includes ignorant Christians trying to interfere with abortion law on the basis of their violent primitive desert cult from bronze age Iraq.
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June 14, 2013 12:05pm
Lance

@ignant_immitant
Good idea not to waste your time on the buffoon Kea.
Just think of him as this blogs village idiot now that Philu has gone.
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June 14, 2013 12:07pm
Kea

13:16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

Any Christians like to tell us ignorant sinners in what context this was acceptable ?

Or This:

“13:18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children. “
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June 14, 2013 12:08pm
ignant_immigant

Kea,

Umm yeah, in your mind you might have handed my my ass.
I don’t subscribe to your Atheism, so I’m a bad person, wow just wow. Funny how you branded me a Christian straight away because I dared pull you up on the weakness of your argument, and shallow understanding of religion as a whole.

It never occured to you that someone could be agnostic, or they simply think your particular brand of Atheism is shallow.
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June 14, 2013 12:09pm
Kea

ignant_immigant, no you are a bad person for being a coward and not condeming the terrible things commanded in the bible.

If you want me to address “religion as a whole”, then I am am afraid it is all down hill from there.

Agnostic is a bullshit position to take. Are you agnostic about the tooth fairy and pixies ?
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June 14, 2013 12:19pm
Fletch

Kea, many of the laws God gave in the Old Testament were for a certain time only – for the Exodus – but many of them were pertaining to health and cleanliness to keep the Jews well and are measures that we all follow today. Remember this was hundreds (thousands?) of years before anyone knew about germs or bacteria, yet God gives the Jews quite practical laws , eg, not eating shellfish, keeping sick or infected people (and their clothing) away from others etc etc. This led to the Jewish nation probably being one of the healthiest there was.

“the spiritual and hygienic reasons for the laws may still be affirmed. They are remarkably valuable in the area of public health… These laws protected Israel from bad diet, dangerous vermin and communicable diseases… These were rule-of-thumb laws that God gave in His wisdom to a people who could not know the reason for the provision” (The Expositor’s Bible Commentary)

The biblical laws of sanitation were clearly ahead of their time! There was really no way to fully understand the reasons for these laws until the invention of the microscope, the discovery of bacteria and the pioneering work of pathologists in recent centuries, yet these ancient biblical laws have proven scientifically valid today! People who touched a dead or diseased animal or person—or even garments or secretions from a sick person—were to bathe and wash their clothes and avoid contact with others. Contaminated garments were to be washed or burned—important sanitizing principles that are still followed today. Dwellings that showed signs of mold, or that had harbored sick individuals, were to be cleaned, repaired or destroyed, to prevent the spread of disease (see Leviticus 13–15). Porous vessels that came into contact with dead animals were to be broken, since they would harbor bacteria. People showing signs of sickness were to be isolated—quarantined—until examined by a priest and declared well. People were to wash after having sex. Tattoos and cuttings on the flesh were also forbidden (Leviticus 19:28), for reasons that include the risk of contracting disease. Modern physicians warn that tattoos and body-piercing carry a risk for contracting infectious diseases like hepatitis B, hepatitis C, syphilis and HIV/AIDS (International Journal of Infectious Disease, 2001, 5(1), 27–34).

In Deuteronomy 23:9–14, we learn that human wastes were to be buried, away from human dwellings. Today we call this sanitary waste disposal, and its benefits are widely understood but not always practiced—especially in poverty-stricken areas. History is filled with epidemics of typhus, cholera and dysentery, linked to the careless dumping of human waste into streets and rivers, or feeding human waste to animals that are then eaten. Burying human waste breaks the life cycle of many parasitic organisms that spread disease. This simple practice is much more effective, and less expensive, than treating disease after it breaks out—and God put this principle in the Bible thousands of years before mankind’s science understood its benefit!

Read MORE

So you see, the Jews didn’t know the reasons for the laws they were commanded to follow but we still follow many of these laws today because we know about germs.

VERY smart! 🙂
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June 14, 2013 12:21pm
Kea

“Kea, many of the laws God gave in the Old Testament were for a certain time only – for the Exodus ”

Fletch , yes I get that. It is a weak and flawed argument, but I will let it slide.

It does not answer my question about baby killing (including unborn) and various other horrors. Not to mention laws about menstruationg women and wearing clothes of mixed fibers. There is no historical context to in which that is valid. If god was worried about public health, he could have instructed doctors to wash their hands. Instead of waiting over a thousand years for people to figure it out. That simple measure saved many lives and new born babies, yet god said nothing. What cunt !
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June 14, 2013 12:28pm
ignant_immigant

Kea

The reason I don’t want to engage with you, and I’ll put this in terms you should be able to understand by dumbing it down a bit-

For some reason you are butthurt over religion and spirituality.
Your butthurt is making you angry, and your anger is clouding your judgement and reasoning. I can see that you are 1/2 way well read, but the amount of butthurt you carry inside prevents you from talking about adult topics in a constructive way.
Once your butthurt is dealt with, you may be able to contribute and perhaps your position and input will be respected by your peers, but untill then, you’ll just continue being an angry, bully and a clown.
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June 14, 2013 12:34pm
Kea

ignant_immigant , I am “butthurt” about the damage religion has done. I am “butthurt” about the millions who have died. I am “butthurt” about the torture of so many people for being witches or scientists. I am “butthurt” about the wars being raged, right now, over religious differences.

I am “butthurt” about all this in the name of something that does not exist. There is no god. I am not an “atheist” I am simply a person who believes in telling the truth.
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June 14, 2013 12:39pm
ignant_immigant

I know, I know, your butthurt is deep, and you are focusing it on religion and spirituality for some reason. Deepseated and historic butthurt is an that issue many of us had to deal with, and I’m glad to see you are becoming a little bit more open about the causes of your butthurt hopefully this will start a journey of self discovery and spiritual growth.

However, I’m not a trained therapist, but just a casual commenter on a political blog, so I advise you see a shrink or something instead of manifesting you butthurt anonymously in blogs.
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June 14, 2013 12:45pm
Kea

ignant_immigant, I am not focused on history or the vile crap written in the bible. I am focused on what is happening today in the real world to actual people.

Perhaps you think we should “respect” relgion ? Let me ask would you normally respect: genocide, infanticide, torture, mass murder, human sacrifice, slavery, the subjucation of women…?

Or is this a case of special pleading and if so why ?
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June 14, 2013 12:51pm
Harriet

Kea given that you’ve been quoting the Bible and not the Koran – could you please give us places and dates where Christians have committed e.g:

Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”

You seem to rant and rave on and on about stuff like this in the Bible – and then never ever back it up with actual events.

Oh sure….sometimes you do…..like the Crusades between 1000 and 1250……..over 800 yrs ago!

And at times you start out talking about Christianity, and then when it suits your arguement you call it religion, so that you can then draw on all the ‘relevant evil’ that Muslim extremists do.

It’s like Griff talking about climate temperatures and introducing oven temperatures – except Griff isn’t that stupid! 😎

Christian alarmist! 😎
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June 14, 2013 12:57pm
mandk

Kea @ 11.56:

“JESUS SAID, he was there to enforce the laws of the old testament.”

If you want to spout Bible verses to support your arguments, at least quote them correctly. Do you understand the difference between enforcing and fulfilling? And do you actually know what Jesus meant when he was talking about the Law and the Prophets?
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June 14, 2013 12:58pm
ignant_immigant

I’m not engageging you, it will only feed your butthurt.

While you are getting help for your butthurt, do some Stage 1 philosophy and socilology papers or read Kant or something. It will ease you into a whole new, wider and much more strategic view of the human condition and the consequent global problems that you like to think you have the answers to.
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June 14, 2013 12:59pm
Paulus

I see a Fairfax man has been appointed Ceo of Radio NZ.

From one stupid biased pot to another one.
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June 14, 2013 1:01pm
Yvette

Adjective[edit]
butthurt (comparative more butthurt, superlative most butthurt)
1. (slang) Overly annoyed, bothered or bugged because of a perceived insult; aimlessly offended; having an overly sensitive ego. Don’t get so butthurt; it was just a joke. 
Noun[edit]
butthurt (uncountable)
1. (slang) Annoyance because of a perceived insult.
2. (slang) Upset because of a perceived injustice. He’s just full of butthurt because I insulted him. 
Derived terms[edit]
• pain in the butt

(slang) annoyance because of a perceived insult
See also[edit]
• bug
• pain in the arse
• pain in the ass
• pain in the bum
• pain in the rear
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June 14, 2013 1:04pm
Lance

@ignant_immigant

I warned you not to feed the troll. He will not listen to anything you say and only return insults, accusations and judgement.
He has to been told all this before many times, in detail and exhaustively but like reasoning with a brick wall he will just simply repeat his original statements with as much venom as possible.
I only bother to comment indirectly because the volume of GD traffic is becoming increasingly Kea’s echo chamber.
FWIW
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June 14, 2013 1:05pm
ignant_immigant

Lance

I won’t talk to him after this, I just had to show off a little cause i’m new. It was a bit like kneeing a baby in the face I admit.
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June 14, 2013 1:08pm
Don the Kiwi

Kea.

Just a small and lonely quote among many from the bible which dispels your claim that all those laws under the Old Covenant still apply under the New Covenant.

St.Paul’s letter to the Ephesians 2: 14 –

……… With His own Body He broke down the wall that separated them and kept them enemies. He abolished the Jewish Law with its commandments and rules, in order to create out of the two races one new people in union with Himself, in this way making peace.

By the Jewish law, he means the levitical or rabinnic law – Not the Mosaic law which deals with the substance, the other laws relate to rubrics.
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June 14, 2013 1:09pm
Harriet

How’s all those splinters from sitting on PG’s fence Kea – butt hurt does it? 😎
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June 14, 2013 1:10pm
ignant_immigant

Check out the book knowledge on Don the Kiwi.

Nicely spotted.
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June 14, 2013 1:15pm
Kea

Harriet (1,932) Says:
June 14th, 2013 at 12:57 pm
Kea given that you’ve been quoting the Bible and not the Koran – could you please give us places and dates where Christians have committed e.g:

Are you suggesting that modern Christians are NOT following the perfect word of God ?

If so, then what does inform their morality ?
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June 14, 2013 1:17pm
Jacob Cohen

Shearer said he had spoken to the MPs about the incident.
“I’ve spoken to them, obviously. They won’t tell you what I’ve said, but I’ve spoken to them and I think they’ve understood the message.”
Shearer had gone into the box to speak to someone he knew was there, whom he declined to name. He would not explain how he knew the person was in the box.
He said he did not know his colleagues were being hosted by SkyCity until he got there.

Perhaps Labour should afford a cell phone for their Leader.
That way he could check if the coast is clear and avoid the embarrassment of running into colleagues when he wouldn’t want to 🙂
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June 14, 2013 1:26pm
Kea

do some Stage 1 philosophy and socilology papers or read Kant or something. It will ease you into a whole new, wider and much more strategic view of the human condition

An unusual response to my condemnation of; mass murder, rape, infanticide, genocide, torture…

Will I suddenly consider those things ok in “context” ? I doubt it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK7P7uZFf5o
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June 14, 2013 1:33pm
Fletch

Scathing warning by the Australian Chief of Army addressing recent bad alleged conduct of troops.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/army-shamed-by-sex-videos-20130613-2o79z.html

The Australian Defence Force is reeling from another internet sex scandal in which at least 17 male army officers formed an email ring that circulated footage of members having sex tagged with demeaning commentary about the women.

Police sources told Fairfax Media that the ring of soldiers called themselves ”The Jedi Council” and that they swapped footage of sex acts without the knowledge of the women depicted. At least 17 soldiers – including senior officers – were involved in receiving and distributing the footage, and it is understood three members of the ring shot the footage, starting in 2010.
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June 14, 2013 1:45pm
Don the Kiwi

Kea.

‘An unusual response to my condemnation of; mass murder, rape, infanticide, genocide, torture

Your condemnation of these things is admirable. 🙂

Fortunately, they are condemned by Christians also, and neither does the bible promote them today under the New Testament.
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June 14, 2013 1:49pm
Kea

Don the Kiwi, yes I know modern Christians do not avocate those things. It is kinda my point. Why do Christians claim the bible is a source of morality when, as you have noted, they largely ignore it.

Modern Christians do not in fact follow the bible, thank god !
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June 14, 2013 2:16pm
mandk

on a different subject, the latest annual rate of food price inflation (to May 2013) is less than zero.

fresh milk and bread prices amongst the largest declines.

come on lefties, tell us how the government really despises the poor!
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June 14, 2013 2:24pm
Don the Kiwi

Kea.

I think you are deliberately missing the point. The old law is now abolished by the new law – it applied up to 2,000 years ago, and is replaced by the new law.

As an analogy to attempt to help my point, my great, great grandfather built a house in 1860.
I built a house in 1994 to the same plan, but I used different materials – because today’s materials both aid in the efficiency of the house, and economy. Both houses are the same, but the new house is more comfortable to live in. I do not want to live in my great, great grandfather’s house.

Does that make sense?
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June 14, 2013 2:44pm
publicwatchdog

Just posted this on Sean Plonker’s facebook page:

Seen this Sean?

Like to call Professor Peckham a ‘nutter’?

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Statement by leading UK Professor of Public Health.
Professor Peckham can be quoted as follows:-

As a Professor and Health Researcher I find pro-fluoridationists’ characterisation of those opposed to fluoridation as “quacks” offensive.

My work is supported by the UK Department of Health, I am a member of the UK Faculty of Public Health and have a number of funded research projects from the National Institutes for Health Research in the UK.

I have consistently opposed fluoridation policy due to the poor evidence base on its effectiveness, genuine concerns about potential health problems (requiring further research) and, therefore, the fact that imposing fluoridation is unethical.

Professor Stephen Peckham BSc. MA(Econ)., HMFPH
Director, Centre for Health Services Studies

Professor of Health Policy
London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine
Director, Policy Research Unit in Commissioning and the Healthcare System
University of Kent
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption /anti-privatisation’ campaigner

2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate
http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/?page_id=152
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June 14, 2013 3:23pm
Johnboy

Dear dear. Another long post from Penny that no one can be fucked reading! 🙂

You should learn about the impact that short, to the point, comments have Penny! 🙂
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June 14, 2013 3:41pm
Johnboy

“Where the fuck is my barbed wire bitch!” 🙂
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June 14, 2013 3:42pm
Kea

Don the Kiwi, yes I get your point. There are a few problems with it though. The ten commandments are part of the old law, along with rather a lot else. It appears the laws are cherry picked, based on what is compatibile with contemporary values.

As a matter of interest, Muslims consider their laws replace both the old and new testaments, as Islam is the later construction and perfected version of Gods laws.
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June 14, 2013 3:42pm
Kea

Penny get a boyfriend ! Your not that bad looking, just keep your mouth shut 😉
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June 14, 2013 3:43pm
Johnboy

She has extremely interesting biceps Kea! 🙂

I’ve never seen her thighs you understand! 🙂
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June 14, 2013 3:45pm
Kea

Johnboy, she likes wearing handcuffs from what I hear.
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June 14, 2013 3:49pm
Don the Kiwi

“It wasn’t the size of the thighs that attracted the flies.
It was the tatty stuff in between”. 🙂
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June 14, 2013 3:50pm
Johnboy

Are you after Dennis Horne’s job of KB Poet Laureate DontKiwi? 🙂
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June 14, 2013 3:52pm
Don the Kiwi

Yes, but not really, johnboy

You see,

I have book which gathers all my gems,
All that the power of my mind can muster.
But on my scribblings, I must place a stem –
For gems they are, but without jewel’s lustre. 🙂
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June 14, 2013 4:22pm

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