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May 23, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 23 May 2013

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General Debate

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nasska

Weihana

Your theory holds water IF the only reaction to an atrocity committed by a couple of Islamic arseholes is a call for a useless ‘gummint’ to ‘do something’. Then there will be more restrictive laws passed which won’t bother the Muslims as they’ll ignore them anyway in the tradition of insane criminals everywhere.

But, what if the average Briton looks around & decides that he’s had enough political correctness & celebrating “diversity”. Then he might turn on the non assimilating immigrants & make life so uncomfortable & dangerous for them that they pull their heads in or leave.

It could happen & it would be tantamount to civil war but it is the only way to save Britain. Appeasement has never worked in the past & it won’t work now.
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May 23, 2013 12:29pm
Weihana

Fletch,

America’s Constitution doesn’t work without religion.

Right, that’s why the very first amendment to the constitution read:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”

Because religion is so important. 🙄

What is wrong with conservatives that you simply can’t keep your religion to yourselves? You can’t just go “this is my personal belief and please leave me to it and I’ll leave you to yours”. You’ve ALWAYS got to go spew it all over other people, to have the state affirm your “one true faith” and to impose upon others on that basis. And if you are prevented from doing this you whinge and moan that YOU have been imposed upon.
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May 23, 2013 12:33pm
RightNow

Alternatively it could lead to:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/05/ukip-just-two-points-behind-tories-new-poll
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May 23, 2013 12:34pm
RightNow

Weihana, can’t you just go “this is my personal belief and please leave me to it and I’ll leave you to yours”?
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May 23, 2013 12:38pm
Weihana

nasska (6,381) Says:
May 23rd, 2013 at 12:29 pm

But, what if the average Briton looks around & decides that he’s had enough political correctness & celebrating “diversity”. Then he might turn on the non assimilating immigrants & make life so uncomfortable & dangerous for them that they pull their heads in or leave.

So basically you’re saying what if random people go out and attack and harass random strangers because they look different and have different beliefs despite having no identified connection to the attack? And you believe THAT is consistent with the principles upon which western society operates? Is that why we have due process of law? Is that why we champion individual rights? So that we can just ignore it all and go to “civil war” with “those people”?

FFS, that is exactly what the terrorists want you to do.
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May 23, 2013 12:40pm
Weihana

RightNow (5,383) Says:
May 23rd, 2013 at 12:38 pm

Weihana, can’t you just go “this is my personal belief and please leave me to it and I’ll leave you to yours”?

Of course, but that is not the purpose of this forum. 🙂
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May 23, 2013 12:42pm
nasska

Weihana opines:

….”What is wrong with conservatives that you simply can’t keep your religion to yourselves? You can’t just go “this is my personal belief and please leave me to it and I’ll leave you to yours”. You’ve ALWAYS got to go spew it all over other people, to have the state affirm your “one true faith” and to impose upon others on that basis. And if you are prevented from doing this you whinge and moan that YOU have been imposed upon.”…..

Never were truer words written.
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May 23, 2013 12:44pm
RightNow

“Of course, but that is not the purpose of this forum.”

Did a light go on over your head just then? What makes this forum any less accessible to one person over another?
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May 23, 2013 12:48pm
nasska

Weihana

Alas, you can’t get it right always…..”FFS, that is exactly what the terrorists want you to do.”….

The Muslims in Britain have been using their host’s laws against the original inhabitants for a couple of decades & they’re not going to stop now. The wets in government will keep on appeasing until there is a mosque on every corner & the Brits are Dhimis in their own country.

It is too late for legislating a peaceful coexistence.
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May 23, 2013 12:51pm
Weihana

RightNow,

“Accessible” is the key word there. If you come on here it is a choice, a very specific choice to engage in a forum where people actively criticize the views of others. If you want to leave you are free to do so. This is quite different to demanding that your religious beliefs be enshrined in law and imposed upon others. This is what Fletch advocates. IIRC the argument goes that it is the Federal government that cannot establish a religion… but state government? They can impose religious nonsense upon individuals all they like!
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May 23, 2013 12:52pm
Kea

Weihana, can’t you just go “this is my personal belief and please leave me to it and I’ll leave you to yours”?

What an odd thing to say on a blog !

We are all here to exchange our thoughts and have them scrutinised by others. Why do you think religion should be immune from that scrutiny ?
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May 23, 2013 12:55pm
RightNow

Kea, you do realise I copied and pasted it from Weihana’s preceding post and repeated it back to Weihana.
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May 23, 2013 12:58pm
Kea

Weihana, you have made some good points and I agree with most of it. But there is a very real problem with intolerant Muslim radicals in the UK. This is not just another murder. People do not cry out “In Jesus name” while cutting off heads and blowing shit up… well not recently so much.
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May 23, 2013 12:59pm
RightNow

Weihana “This is quite different to demanding that your religious beliefs be enshrined in law and imposed upon others.”

Well I apologise then, I thought you were referring to people commenting here.
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May 23, 2013 1:00pm
Kea

RightNow, I missed that. But interestingly I did not address it to you. Gotcha 😉
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May 23, 2013 1:00pm
RightNow

I’m too confused, must need food.
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May 23, 2013 1:01pm
mandk

Richard Dawkins: “Let us try to teach generosity and altruism, because we are all born selfish”

Why would an atheist want to do this? Aren’t generosity and altruism pointless from a truly atheist perspective? Or is Dawkins saying this because athesits need to pimp off people who believe these things actually matter?
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May 23, 2013 1:12pm
Ashley Schaeffer

Kea (4,519) Says:
May 23rd, 2013 at 12:07 pm
Ashley Schaeffer , I take nothing in the bible “literally”. I was cut and pasting what is written. You have clearly attached a meaning to it. You are also a pretentious wanker suggesting you have some unique understanding. You have failed to demonstrate that in your post.

You have quoted something and implied meaning. If you were implying nothing, then why bother quoting the passage? Trolling perhaps?
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May 23, 2013 1:12pm
Tom Jackson

Interesting that there appears to be about 600 murders a year in Britain. But one guy commits one murder and mentions Islam and the “wolves are at the door”.

That is a disingenous and sophistical line of reasoning. Once you remove from the 600 murders domestic homicides and other homicides where the victim is known to the attacker, and murders where the victims were acting in a risky manner, you end up with the few homicides that really frighten people because they could happen to anyone.

It’s no surprise that people get freaked out more by a random loony opening up with a machine gun in a public square than they do about being murdered by their spouse, because people feel they have some amount of control over the risks of the latter.
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May 23, 2013 1:15pm
Weihana

nasska (6,383) Says:
May 23rd, 2013 at 12:51 pm

Weihana

Alas, you can’t get it right always…

Some of the time is not bad I suppose. 🙂

The Muslims in Britain have been using their host’s laws against the original inhabitants for a couple of decades & they’re not going to stop now.

It is inherent that with freedom comes a risk to security. I personally think there are bigger problems than some supposed culture war.
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May 23, 2013 1:15pm
Ashley Schaeffer

Weihana (3,163) Says:
May 23rd, 2013 at 12:18 pm
Interesting that there appears to be about 600 murders a year in Britain. But one guy commits one murder and mentions Islam and the “wolves are at the door”.

I retract that previous “wolves at the door” comment. For Europe and the UK, the wolves have been invited inside and given the keys.
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May 23, 2013 1:20pm
Weihana

RightNow (5,387) Says:
May 23rd, 2013 at 1:00 pm

Well I apologise then, I thought you were referring to people commenting here.

Well I suppose I did generalize quite a bit by referring to “conservatives”. “Conservative” often takes on a very stereotypical identity in my mind and I apologize to any self-identified conservatives who do not consider that what I said reflects accurately on them. 🙂
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May 23, 2013 1:21pm
nasska

mandk

….” Aren’t generosity and altruism pointless from a truly atheist perspective?”….

Some of the meanest, money grubbing apologies for humans I have ever met have been regular church attendees….if they made it to sit beside their God for eternity then Hell would be a better option.

Atheists may or may not have the essential trait of empathy….it has little to do with creeds but dictates how a man reacts with his fellows.
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May 23, 2013 1:23pm
kowtow

Tom Jackson

Those machine guns were being fired at British citizens in British cities in Northern Ireland…….
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May 23, 2013 1:24pm
mandk

Nasska,
You may well be correct, but I was wondering what point there is in generosity and altruism, if you are an atheist.
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May 23, 2013 1:31pm
Harriet

Weihana#

“…….“Accessible” is the key word there. If you come on here it is a choice, a very specific choice to engage in a forum where people actively criticize the views of others. If you want to leave you are free to do so. This is quite different to demanding that your religious beliefs be enshrined in law and imposed upon others. This is what Fletch advocates…..”

SOooooooooooooo then:

“Accessible” is the key word there. If you come IN here it is a choice, a very specific choice to engage in a SOCIETY where people actively criticize the views of others. If you want to leave you are free to do so. This is quite different to demanding that your religious beliefs be enshrined in law and imposed upon others. This is what MUSLIMS advocate…..”

I think you miss the point:

They don’t give a fuck about how we live, and they expect us not to give a fuck about how they live. They are asking to be allowed to practice sharia law WITHOUT imposing it on others…….for a start!

And the NZ government allows them to:

The Australian Federal Police- “We know exactly where Australian and NZ muslim citizens take their daughters to get circumsised.” – The Australian.

The NZ government, including the dept of womens affairs, childrens commissioner, familys commisioner, cypf, does not bar female muslim children from traveling to Indonesia. Or anywhere else.

But fuck a 14yld in Thailand……….
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May 23, 2013 1:32pm
Weihana

Tom Jackson (576) Says:
May 23rd, 2013 at 1:15 pm

That is a disingenous and sophistical line of reasoning. Once you remove from the 600 murders domestic homicides and other homicides where the victim is known to the attacker, and murders where the victims were acting in a risky manner, you end up with the few homicides that really frighten people because they could happen to anyone.

It’s no surprise that people get freaked out more by a random loony opening up with a machine gun in a public square than they do about being murdered by their spouse, because people feel they have some amount of control over the risks of the latter.

Ok.. how about 1900 automobile deaths in Britain in 2011. Anyone scared to get into a car?

It’s not that I disagree with what you are saying. It is natural, but we certainly don’t change our way of life and get rid of cars because of the risks involved.

Point is there is a tradeoff between freedom and safety. We have certain principles like due process of law and individual rights. Are they important enough to tolerate some risk to safety?
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May 23, 2013 1:33pm
KevinH

After watching the video of the murderer spouting political slogans while holdling a knife and meat cleaver, I arrived at the conclusion that the man and his colleague in crime are complete nutcases and appear to be under the influence of drugs, perhaps methamphetamine. There is the potential for copy cat murders from similarly politicised muslim radicals, therefore the British Police need to step up patrols and surveillance to prevent that from happening.
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May 23, 2013 1:35pm
Weihana

Harriet (1,817) Says:
May 23rd, 2013 at 1:32 pm

They don’t give a fuck…

Ahh.. the great “they”… or “them”… or “those people”.

They don’t give a fuck about how we live, and they expect us not to give a fuck about how they live. They are asking to be allowed to practice sharia law WITHOUT imposing it on others…….for a start!

And the NZ government allows them to:

The Australian Federal Police- “We know exactly where Australian and NZ muslim citizens take their daughters to get circumsised.” – The Australian.

Female circumcision IS imposing upon other people, namely the girl who is a victim of such. My understanding is that it is illegal and if you want to define a remedy in terms of this specific act (as opposed to “they” and “them”) then by all means do what is necessary to identify the victims and prosecute the offenders with stiff penalties. In my view such mutilation should be considered as equal to the most serious cases of rape.
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May 23, 2013 1:40pm
Fletch

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”

Weihana, you left out the next clause – “or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. Your snippet is in regard to establishing a NATIONAL religion that everyone must follow – the State cannot do that. It means that every person can freely practice his own flavour religion in his own way.

It is pretty much a given though that the Constitution was founded upon a Christian God and laws.
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May 23, 2013 1:43pm
Weihana

mandk (199) Says:
May 23rd, 2013 at 1:31 pm

Nasska,
You may well be correct, but I was wondering what point there is in generosity and altruism, if you are an atheist.

I’m no expert but I believe there are studies suggesting evolutionary advantages to these traits. We are social animals and reciprocity is a key ingredient to a healthy social environment. These attributes would appear to be rational and good and do not require any appeal to a mythical being for justification. Indeed I believe the same is true of most of the common ethical principles which are generally held to be universal. It puzzles me as to why some people find it so hard to find reality based justifications for ethics and behaviour and seem to need some disciplinary heavenly father figure to encourage them towards good behaviour.
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May 23, 2013 1:45pm
Griff

Empathy does not need a god
It is part of being a social animal
I give to help the causes that i belive warrent my support
Again Christian thought says all morality belongs to the church
You would be less likely to have your rights trampled by liberal atheists then the conservatives.
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May 23, 2013 1:50pm
nasska

mandk

There may not be a point to generosity and altruism for atheists but you are presuming that the presence or absence of these traits relates to spiritual beliefs. Man took the first steps to civilisation & developing a society well before current theologies were even considered.

It is not a subject I have any expertise in but I seem to remember reading that empathy & aiding the injured & less well off allowed societies to gather critical mass faster than if it was all ‘dog eat dog’. Religions developed within the customs & norms of their times & it is my guess that the more altruistic facets of the people were incorporated into their creeds.

Certainly in my six+ decades I have found Christian beliefs to be a poor indicator of the essence of a man.
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May 23, 2013 1:50pm
Fletch

The Ozzies are already having a go at our gay marriage thing – LINK

Lots of truth to that cartoon.
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May 23, 2013 1:50pm
Weihana

Fletch (4,312) Says:
May 23rd, 2013 at 1:43 pm

Weihana, you left out the next clause – “or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. Your snippet is in regard to establishing a NATIONAL religion that everyone must follow – the State cannot do that.

You will note I am familiar with this argument and have already referenced it.

It means that every person can freely practice his own flavour religion in his own way.

Yes.. every PERSON. The state government is NOT a person. Having the state government impose religion is no less a restriction on the free exercise of religion than the federal government doing it. Hence why this interpretation is law.

It is pretty much a given though that the Constitution is based upon a Christian God and laws.

It’s only a given to people like yourself who require official endorsement of their beliefs because their conviction is apparently so weak it cannot rest on self-assurance alone. 😉
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May 23, 2013 1:54pm
Manolo

Whining froma socialist organisation. It can only be good: http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8663474/nz-slammed-over-poverty-asylum-bill
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May 23, 2013 1:56pm
liarbors a joke

“Far right group English Defence League (EDL) has called for people to gather in Woolwich to protest against the attack.

The protesters, believed to be “anti Muslim”, gathered on a street in Woolwich, near where the attack took place.

According to ITV, a large police presence was gathering. About 40 demonstrators were said to have rushed police.

Meanwhile, two people have reportedly been arrested for attacking mosques in Essex and Kent.”

Excellent. …

Burn every shithole mosque to the ground…throw pork chops at them…kick the filth out…we have to protect ourselves before its too late.
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May 23, 2013 2:01pm
Fletch

Weihana, and as I quoted John Adams before – America was founded for a “moral and religious” people. Their form of Government cannot work for any other.
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May 23, 2013 2:06pm
Manolo

Islam is a violent cult, an enemy of modernity and any civilised society.
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May 23, 2013 2:07pm
Tom Jackson

Ok.. how about 1900 automobile deaths in Britain in 2011. Anyone scared to get into a car?

Again, people manage with this because they have some degree of control over it. If you drive carefully and watch out for other drivers it makes a difference. Sure, there’s still a risk, but it can be effectively mitigated.

There’s not a lot you can do if people are going to violently kill others at random.

True fear has its origins in powerlessness. The reason people are able to get through the day is that they reason that even if there are risks, they aren’t completely powerless to alter the odds.

It’s not that I disagree with what you are saying. It is natural, but we certainly don’t change our way of life and get rid of cars because of the risks involved.

I’m not arguing that we change our lives, just that the reason people react differently to this sort of event doesn’t have to have its origins in racial prejudice.

Consider the fear that Richard Ramirez caused by murdering ordinary people in their beds. Sure, you were unlikely to be a victim, but there was almost nothing you could do to stop him if he targeted your house.
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May 23, 2013 2:08pm
thedavincimode

These attributes would appear to be rational and good and do not require any appeal to a mythical being for justification.

Correct.

Indeed I believe the same is true of most of the common ethical principles which are generally held to be universal.

Correct.

It puzzles me as to why some people find it so hard to find reality based justifications for ethics and behaviour and seem to need some disciplinary heavenly father figure to encourage them towards good behaviour.

It shouldn’t. You’re assuming that they are in fact encouraged toward good behaviour. You must have seen in many instances on this blog that asserted belief in G** is merely a device to try and assume the moral or ethical high ground on issues and disguise underlying bigotry and hatred. You ought to have seen over time that there are two very clear camps in the G** department here. Those who don’t feel the need to justify what is ultimately faith and generally go about their business expressing opinions without resorting to this fraud. And the others – the phonies – who parade their purported faith as a banner in the vain attempt to deflect attention from their hypocrisy and bigotry that bubbles at the surface.
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May 23, 2013 2:10pm
Tom Jackson

Burn every shithole mosque to the ground…throw pork chops at them…kick the filth out…we have to protect ourselves before its too late.

You know who else used to say things like that?
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May 23, 2013 2:10pm
Manolo

The exhibitionist pervert aspires to run for NYC Mayor. What a cheek!
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/anthony-weiner-finally-official-running-mayor-article-1.1351265
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May 23, 2013 2:14pm
liarbors a joke

“You know who else used to say things like that? ”

Well the other option is to stand around wringing our hands while we all sing kumbaya..maybe chuck in a couple of hymns at the end and cross our fingers?

Nah..time for doodling is over.
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May 23, 2013 2:22pm
Kea

Same plan as Tama Iti.

“We want to start a war in London tonight.”

“It is only you versus many people, you are going to lose.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10074881/Mum-talked-down-Woolwich-terrorists-who-told-her-We-want-to-start-a-war-in-London-tonight.html
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May 23, 2013 2:25pm
Manolo

Comrade Tom Jackson, there is no time for appeasement and cowardice.
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May 23, 2013 2:26pm
Kea

You know who else used to say things like that?

Yes, large groups in: Iran, Mali, Iraq, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Turkey, Morocco, Sudan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Jordan, Chad…
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May 23, 2013 2:30pm
Right of way is Way of Right

I NEVER KNEW THIS ABOUT JAPAN

Have you ever read in the newspaper that a political leader or a prime minister from an Islamic nation has visited Japan? Have you ever come across news that the Ayatollah of Iran or the King of Saudi Arabia or even a Saudi Prince has visited Japan? Japan is a country keeping Islam at bay. Japan has put strict restrictions on Islam and ALL Muslims.

The reasons are :

1) Japan is the only nation that does not give citizenship to Muslims.

2) In Japan permanent residency is not given to Muslims.

3) There is a strong ban on the propagation of Islam in Japan.

4) In the University of Japan, Arabic or any Islamic language is not taught.

5) One cannot import a ‘Koran’ published in the Arabic language.

6) According to data published by the Japanese government, it has given temporary residency to only 2 lakhs, Muslims, who must follow the Japanese Law of the Land. These Muslims should speak Japanese and carry their religious rituals in their homes.

7) Japan is the only country in the world that has a negligible number of embassies in Islamic countries.

8) Japanese people are not attracted to Islam at all.

9) Muslims residing in Japan are the employees of foreign companies.

10) Even today, visas are not granted to Muslim doctors, engineers or managers sent by foreign companies.

11) In the majority of companies it is stated in their regulations that no Muslims should apply for a job.

12) The Japanese government is of the opinion that Muslims are fundamentalist and even in the era of globalization they are not willing to change their Muslim laws.

13) Muslims cannot even think about renting a house in Japan .

14) If anyone comes to know that his neighbor is a Muslim then the whole neighborhood stays alert.

15) No one can start an Islamic cell or Arabic ‘Madrasa’ in Japan.

There is no Sharia law in Japan .

16) If a Japanese woman marries a Muslim then she is considered an outcast forever.

17) According to Mr. Kumiko Yagi, Professor of Arab/Islamic Studies at Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, “There is a mind frame in Japan that Islam is a very narrow minded religion and one should stay away from it.”

VERY SMART PEOPLE, THESE JAPANESE !
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May 23, 2013 2:44pm
Kea

Right of way is Way of Right, Japan is proud of their culture. That is the difference.

Our Western Liberal European fantasy world about human “rights”, racism & equality are shared by virtually no one. They are not even that widely held here !

It is little more than a very recent social experiment and has no traction in Asia where most of the world lives. In India they go even further with the Caste system and in Africa Tribalism.

The rest of the world is having a laugh at us.
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May 23, 2013 2:54pm
Poliwatch

Shoddy journalism is alive and well in the Provinces

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/8706167/Rich-Waikato-schools-widen-the-gap

This article suggests that because “rich schools” get more money from donations that they are widening the gap between them and small schools. The table on which the article is based is on gross funding from government and other funding and takes no account of school rolls. A quick calculation based on the table and then using school rolls http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_schools_in_the_Waikato_Region shows that in act the average funding per pupil for a “rich school” is $9,002 per pupil whereas the average funding for a “poor school” is $10,824 per pupil. So “poor schools” are in fact better off by $1,822 per pupil. The gap would be $2,501 per pupil if other funding was excluded.

The headline should be that parents from “rich schools” are having to raise funds to close the gaps on “poor schools”.

Anecdotally I have also seen this when teachers come to a high decile school from a low decile school, and then find to their horror that they do not have many of the extra teaching aids that low decile schools can afford with their extra funding.
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May 23, 2013 3:02pm
Odakyu-sen

“Have you ever read in the newspaper that a political leader or a prime minister from an Islamic nation has visited Japan?”

Actually, yes. Quote (Saudi ambassdor to Japan): “The two countries “enjoy a very healthy and strong strategic relationship,” especially since signing documents for a closer partnership on the occasion of Crown Prince Abdullah’s visit to Japan in 1998, he said during a visit to The Japan Times.”
Ref: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2005/01/19/national/japan-saudi-arabia-relations-praised/#.UZ2F36I3BLc

Maybe not reported in the NZ press, but available in the Japanese press (English and Japanese editions).
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May 23, 2013 3:03pm
Kea

Odakyu-sen, of course, but the point being made is valid. Japan would not tolerate what the British have. They protect their way of life and good on them. This is not to say they are not open to new ideas, but they chose the future of their country, not foreigners.
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May 23, 2013 3:10pm
Odakyu-sen

Also, check out the Organization for Islamic Area Studies at Waseda University in Tokyo.

Ref: http://www.kikou.waseda.ac.jp/ias/en/education/

As you know, Waseda is a private university, so funding for the Center may come from sources other than the Japanese government. (Follow the money, boys….)
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May 23, 2013 3:11pm
Weihana

Fletch (4,314) Says:
May 23rd, 2013 at 2:06 pm

Weihana, and as I quoted John Adams before – America was founded for a “moral and religious” people. Their form of Government cannot work for any other.

I appreciate that morality is distinguished from religion, as one does not imply the other. 🙂
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May 23, 2013 3:22pm
Weihana

Tom Jackson,

I’m not arguing that we change our lives, just that the reason people react differently to this sort of event doesn’t have to have its origins in racial prejudice.

A point well taken, although despite it being natural to have a strong reaction in situations where one feels a sense of powerlessness, the manner in which people react I think can reflect very poorly on them. It’s easy to identify an entire class of people for targeted government and/or police action when you yourself do not belong to that class.
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May 23, 2013 3:25pm
Odakyu-sen

Kea, I agree with you. If I may generalize; I believe that the average Japanese on the street has a far clearer notion of what it means to be Japanese than white New Zealanders know what it means to be Pakeha.

To give an absurd example: If NZ were Japan, then stay-at-home Kiwi mothers would read articles every month in the NZ Women’s Weekly about how to make a “real Kiwi lunch” for their kids. Their kids would enjoy variations of their traditional Marmite & cheese sandwiches on Tip-Top bread, and their 1/2 apple, in the knowledge that to eat such a lunch was a reaffirmation of what it meant to be a Kiwi. They would feel a deep sense of “Kiwi Pride” as they ate their sammies and apple, knowing that no other kids in the world would have the same kind of lunch, and that this is what made them special and unique… That afternoon on the kids’ TV program, there would be the “Kiwi Lunchbox Sandwich Song” that would reinforce this attitude.

Sounds over the top? (Welcome to the world of kids in Japan….) Ref: http://pinterest.com/bgbg/simple-bento-ideas-for-kids-recipes/

My point: Reinforcement of cultural identity in Japan is at a level several orders of magnitude above what Pakeha experience in NZ. It starts from birth in Japan. It is intense. It is all pervasive. Once you understand it, you can start to get an idea of what “nationalism” means in a Japanese context. Indeed, the English word “nationalism” is woefully inadequate to describe the Japanese mindset.

My apologies for the rant…
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May 23, 2013 3:28pm
Zapper

http://www.smh.com.au/world/farright-clash-with-police-near-scene-of-killing-20130523-2k21z.html

No big surprise here. There has to be some well overdue push back.
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May 23, 2013 3:33pm
thedavincimode

To give an absurd example

Not so much of an absurd example as an aspiration.
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May 23, 2013 3:39pm
noskire

It’s a very complex issue, but here is my simplistic view on it:

Western forces should get the fuck out of any Arab land ASAP.
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May 23, 2013 3:50pm
OTGO

” Indeed, the English word “nationalism” is woefully inadequate to describe the Japanese mindset.”

And the western democracies think that nationalism is bad so they allow virtually unrestrained immigration to destroy it.
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May 23, 2013 4:17pm
Kea

Odakyu-sen, it is not rant. It is an insight into another world that we could all benefit from.
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May 23, 2013 4:21pm
Scott

Just read that the police took so long to get there that after the 2 terrorists had hacked at the poor fellow for 15 minutes they still had time to walk around and talk to bystanders. Like what is the police response time in Britain? If a fellow being beheaded by 2 men with meat cleavers isn’t an emergency police priority then what is?

I think this is an important point because the citizen gives up the right to carry arms in exchange for the state protecting him through the police. Now if someone can get murdered in broad daylight over a leisurely 20 minute period then the average citizen might legitimately think about carrying means to defend himself if set upon. Because he knows that the police will not likely show up till after the deed is done.
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May 23, 2013 4:40pm
KevinH

@Scott
Witness reports from the crime scene of the murder indicate that at first bystanders thought an accident had occurred. Most ordinary people going about there daily routine would have been totally unprepared for the horror that unfolded before them and would react with some confusion which is probably the underlying cause for the slow response from the Police. It would have seemed unreal to witness and almost unbelievable in recounting the incident to emergency services.
One thing is for sure, all citizens in the U.K. have to be on guard for such horrific attacks, they might happen anywhere, anytime.
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May 23, 2013 5:26pm
nasska

Paddy had long heard the stories of an amazing family tradition.
It seems that his father, grandfather and great-grandfather had all been
able to walk on water on their 18th birthday. On that special day, they’d
each walked across the lake to the pub on the far side for their first legal
Drink. So when Paddy’s 18th birthday came around, he and his pal Jim took a boat
out to the middle of the lake, Paddy, stepped out of the boat …and nearly
drowned! Jim just barely managed to pull him to safety.
Furious and confused, Paddy went to see his grandmother . “Grandma,” he
asked, “Tis me 18th birthday, so why can’t I walk across the lake like me
father, his father and his father before him?”
Granny looked deeply into Paddy’s, troubled blue eyes and said,
“Because ye father, ye grandfather and ye great-grandfather were all born in December,
when the lake is frozen, and ye were born in August, ya fookin idiot!”
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May 23, 2013 8:03pm
Steve (North Shore)

What a load of bollocks today’s GD was.
Some black pommy shithead kills a Soldier – he has no respect for the land he now lives in.
Today the GD goes off in tangents, Islam, Catholics, Anglicans, female circumcism, many wives, Japanese. (I am not reading this shit anymore FFS)
Religious killing – is that something new? and btw it was not a MACHETE, it was a meat cleaver – fucking media bullshiters
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May 23, 2013 8:19pm
Johnboy

Japanese and Muslims both like beheading folk.

Japanese just do it with much more style Odakyu-sen! 🙂
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May 23, 2013 8:25pm
UglyTruth

Islam is a violent cult, an enemy of modernity and any civilised society.

No shortage of knuckledraggers giving this the thumbs up, I see.

Can you tell me, oh modern civilised humans, what the difference is between a violent cult and a group which believes in a deity and honours justice?
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May 23, 2013 8:25pm
nasska

Johnboy

Earlier on this year you posted a statistical table showing what a nation could expect from Islamic immigration at steps relating to percentage of population. Could you repost it on the “London Attack” thread or give us the link?

Ta.
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May 23, 2013 8:25pm
nasska

….”Can you tell me, oh modern civilised humans, what the difference is between a violent cult and a group which believes in a deity and honours justice?”…..

A few hundred years of civilisation?
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May 23, 2013 8:28pm
Johnboy

I’ll have to have another two dozen drinks before I can remember where I misplaced that one nasska! 🙂
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May 23, 2013 8:33pm
nasska

Bottoms up! 🙂
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May 23, 2013 8:35pm
Johnboy

I’m an ephemeral creature nasska.

I drift through life in a daze whisping my way wherever the prevailing takes me.

Thinking I have a good backup to my unusual slant on life is just too much of an expectation! 🙂
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May 23, 2013 8:41pm
nasska

She’s right JB thanks….I found it. 🙂
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May 23, 2013 8:58pm
UglyTruth

A few hundred years of civilisation?

So what does it mean to be civilised?

Civil. Of or relating to the state or its citizenry. Relating to private rights and remedies sought by civil actions as contrasted with criminal proceedings. (Blacks 5th)

The thing is that the civil state can be just as violent (if not more so) that the groups it opposes.
As for the civil state being a cult, I refer you to the Canadian residential school genocide.
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May 23, 2013 8:59pm
nasska

Ugly Truth

I was looking at the situation from the governance angle. Islamic people are about 80% illiterate & the vast majority of Muslims live in theocratic shitholes where there religious leaders exert enormous control over their wretched lives. When they immigrate they merely transport the cancerous mess into their new homeland.

Contrast that with England which didn’t take off until it rid itself of the shackles of religious oppression. The Muslim people will not thrive in a similar way until their religious hierarchy is overthrown.
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May 23, 2013 9:12pm
UglyTruth

When they immigrate they merely transport the cancerous mess into their new homeland.

Usually all they transport is their own victimhood. Some of the responsibility for their situation is their own, some of it lies with external agencies who manipulate them for their own ends.

Contrast that with England

Certainly the English have enjoyed much higher literacy and higher standards of living than most Muslims. But the English have their own issues with the religious hierarchy in the form of the house of Windsor. From this came genocide and subjugation on a grand scale.

I agree that Muslims should look more closely at how they are manipulated by their leaders. But the same can be said for us and for the English.
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May 23, 2013 9:47pm
lilman

Ugly I glad those Murdering assholes didnt speed from the scene of the crime,as you ould know it wasnt their fault ,but the fault of the local police.
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May 23, 2013 10:40pm
Manolo

Would you believe it? This is Stockholm: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329630/Stockholm-riots-Police-fear-losing-control-fourth-night-riots-leaves-restaurants-gutted-ruins-smoking.html
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May 24, 2013 7:31am
Manolo

Living with the enemy. The savages should be executed, then deported: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/470241/20130522/woolwich-beheading-attack-anjem-choudary.htm
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May 24, 2013 7:49am

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