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May 16, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 16 May 2013

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OneTrack

“RightNow (5,333) Says:
May 16th, 2013 at 3:13 pm
“Tiger Woods Scandal Cost Shareholders up to $12 Billion”

Grebour are rank amateurs compared to Tiger.”

But they haven’t started yet. NZ Power was just a practice shot.
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May 16, 2013 3:26pm
OneTrack

“Fletch (4,291) Says:
May 16th, 2013 at 3:18 pm ”

Oh my …. So the message is clear – when you write a TV show, don’t include any LGBT characters at all, otherwise the ACLU will be telling your writers how to do their job and, in the process, screwing with your income.

High five.
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May 16, 2013 3:31pm
Fletch

Opps, sorry Manolo, I edited it after the first read.
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May 16, 2013 3:31pm
Fletch

OneTrack, no that wasn’t what I was trying to say really.
If a show has to have a gay character, then so be it, but including them just for including a token gay strains credulity a bit.
Is it an accurate representation when there are only a purported 3% of gay people in the community?

It is propaganda, pure and simple. Trying to make real life mirror the fiction we see on TV.

I just don’t watch much on TV anymore. There just isn’t anything worth the watch (apart from Dr Who escapism maybe :))
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May 16, 2013 3:36pm
kowtow

I think the ACLU are right to push for diversity and show queers getting married.

It should be shot in Iran or Saudi Arabia.

That would be very diverse.

The ACLU don’t stand for liberty,they represent a virulent hatred of everything that made America (the US) the great country that it is .
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May 16, 2013 3:41pm
Kea

But he’s black (and a democrat). That makes it all OK.

Whoops my bad.
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May 16, 2013 3:44pm
kowtow

From not flying the St George flag to the dam busters. Here’s a good one from the DT.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/10059848/Flying-the-Dambusters-mission-video-game-demonstrates-pilots-skill.html#disqus_thread
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May 16, 2013 3:51pm
Nookin

One for Whaleoil’s crusade against the Herald. The headline is “Dotcom’s appeal allowed”. Well, it wasn’t allowed. He has simply been granted leave to appeal. It may have been accurate to Say “Dotcom allowed to appeal” but the actual headline is misleading.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10884084
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May 16, 2013 4:15pm
Lucia Maria

Kea,

Lucia, you can start with prohibition on selling booze at Easter and Christmas.

The prohibition on selling booze at Easter and Christmas is not a religious law.

Islam, christianity etc are all religions. Yours is no more valid than the others.

Well, mine is true. That makes all the difference.
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May 16, 2013 4:19pm
TheContrarian

“Well, mine is true. That makes all the difference.”

Bahahaha!
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May 16, 2013 4:36pm
Kea

Lucia

1. Easter & Christmas are holidays honouring a primitive violent desert cult.

2. Your second statement is just plain silly as there is not God.
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May 16, 2013 4:43pm
Chuck Bird

“Your second statement is just plain silly as there is not God.”

Can you prove that?
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May 16, 2013 5:04pm
TheContrarian

“Can you prove that?”

The burden of proof is on those who say there is a god, not on those who disbelief
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May 16, 2013 5:21pm
Chuck Bird

The burden of proof is on those who say there is a god, not on those who disbelief

I never claimed there is a God. However, Kea stated as a fact that there is not a God so I believe the onus is on him to prove his opinion is a fact.
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May 16, 2013 5:36pm
kowtow

nookin

Don’t say “crusade” it will upset the fundamentalist atheists here.
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May 16, 2013 5:37pm
Kea

Chuck Bird (3,431) Says:
May 16th, 2013 at 5:04 pm
“Your second statement is just plain silly as there is not God.”

Can you prove that?

Can you prove I am not the second coming of Jesus ? Can you prove the tooth fairy does not exist ?

kowtow, atheism is not a belief system.
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May 16, 2013 5:49pm
Chuck Bird

Can you prove I am not the second coming of Jesus ? Can you prove the tooth fairy does not exist ?

No, but that is not the issue.
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May 16, 2013 5:52pm
Left Right and Centre

Here goes my big rant for the day:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10883942

Tanya Black…. get well and truly fucked!!

Boo hoo you poor little bitch…. yes, it’s so humiliating being told that you have to sit in the seat that’s *printed on your fucking ticket*.

Who’s at fault? The national carrier. Not following their own rules? Oh, just ask people to move out of *their fucking seats* they’ve booked and paid for. You know what? I would’ve been exactly the same. I would’ve told them to get fucked. That’s their problem… they have to sort it out. And what was the net result? Poor little thin-skinned Tanya who sounds like she gets upset at the thought of a puppy missing breakfast ended up in the seat that *she was meant to be put in all along*. Well, fuck me days, really?

She’s the one with the fucking problem.. what a freakin moron. Yeah, that’s true discrimination… being refused a seat swap. She’s the one with the sense of entitlement. The 1A passenger was entirely within her rights to refuse to give up her seat. It’s HER FUCKING SEAT dickhead!! Don’t expect her to give it up.

It’s got nothing to do with any of the following bullshit:

‘passenger was callous and uncaring’. Bullshit. She wanted to sit in her seat as per airline rules. How did it affect Tanya? She had to wait for a special chair and that’s up to the airline. It’s the airline’s fault… where’s the fucking chair idiots? They caused the delay.. no-one else. Have a chair ready fuckwits.

Discrimination. Bullshit. Being told you have to sit in your seat is discrimination? Cobblers.

Someone refusing to give up their seat makes them ignorant and rude. I’d be fuckin rude too…. I *wish* it had been me. Ignorant? Sounds like someone who didn’t get their way so the other person must be ignorant. Good one.

Tanya felt humiliated. Why? You can’t just take people’s fuckin seats you stupid cow. Jesus mate… harden up retard!!

‘She seemed to think she was somebody’. Yeah- somebody who quite rightly was under no obligation to give up their seat.

“I was just so embarrassed. I felt sorry for her kids, actually.” I feel sorry for her being a clueless dork that didn’t get what she wanted and then cries like a little bitch to the media.

*The air hostess asked her a couple of times to reconsider because it was delaying the flight.* It’s up to the airline to follow their own fucking procedures and have an aisle chair ready. the hostess wanted a quick fix for their own incompetence by hassling a passenger to give up their seat. So… that was asked to save the airline trouble… because waiting for a chair would mean delaying the flight. Getting a passenger to move was in the interests of the airline, for their benefit. They tried it on as a quick fix to their problem and Tanya’s problem. And then… to make it worse they kept on fucking asking her more than once to move seats. Trying to pressure and ‘shame’ her into doing something that suits them. No means fucking no you cunts. No wonder the passenger was pissed.

Tanya…. you didn’t get your way… neither should you expect to. Don’t try to take people’s seats from them and then cry discrimination and victim. Get plugged. Welcome to the real world precious.
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May 16, 2013 6:07pm
Kea

Chuck Bird, it is as much an issue as your imaginary god. It is not about being an atheist, it is about the truth.
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May 16, 2013 6:13pm
Redbaiter

Well said LRC.

Many people with very little wrong with them use those chairs as a gimmick to obtain special treatment.
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May 16, 2013 6:25pm
Johnboy

Sort of like those crippled buggers with mobility stickers that get shitty when a big fatarse j*****o parks in the disabled park so his even fatter j*****o missus can waddle a little less distance to the supermarket! 🙂
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May 16, 2013 6:31pm
Lucia Maria

Kea,

1. Easter & Christmas are holidays honouring a primitive violent desert cult.

2. Your second statement is just plain silly as there is not God.

And yet we have Easter and Christmas, honouring the death and birth of God incarnate. There are no religious rules that are being enforced around those holidays, otherwise the state would be ensuring everyone attended Mass on those days. That doesn’t happen, all that does is our secular society has decided that the traditional honouring of those days is just too good to drop. People like the holidays, they like the no shopping on those days (except for a small minority), but that doesn’t mean that NZ enforces religious rules, now that’s silly.
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May 16, 2013 7:15pm
Johnboy

If you ever need someone to help you eat your Easter eggs/Christmas pud Lucia I’m always available! 🙂
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May 16, 2013 7:19pm
Lucia Maria

Still trying, huh, Johnboy?
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May 16, 2013 7:25pm
Johnboy

I love a challenge.
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May 16, 2013 7:27pm
Kea

Lucia, either your belief in god is irrational primitive superstition, or it is a reasonable belief based on evidence.

If it is the later, then provide that evidence. If it is the former, you may want to reconsider.
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May 16, 2013 7:29pm
Left Right and Centre

Redbaiter 6:25 pm praise from Caesar. I don’t know about the special treatment conspiracy theory.. I’m sure most people claiming disability genuinely are quite rooted. I can thank KB for helping improve my ranting style.

Sounds like another case of ‘jumped up white middle class kiwi woman’ syndrome. They want their arse licked, five star service everywhere they fuckin go, the slightest ‘problem’ and it pulls the cord on their well-rehearsed and practiced automated hair-trigger outraged complaining mechanism.

Very easily ‘humiliated’ it seems.

Oh sorry your majesty, did one have to sit in one’s own seat? Did one not get her way? You poor little poppet… the *nerve* of someone refusing to swap with a disabled white middle class woman. How dare she? Who does she think she is turning down a request to swap seats? She’s evil!! Now I’m humiliated because I didn’t get what I wanted. Being disabled, when I ask people to do something, I expect them to do it and that’s it. She’s not allowed to say no!! How bloody rude. Really, some people are outrageous. Won’t give up their seat that’s much better than my shitty seat. The injustice of it all. I can’t believe it… I just can’t believe it. I’m disabled… bow down and do my bidding. I expect you to swap seats and now I’m saying you should’ve done that. So… the woman had no option but to swap seats? There’s no way in the world that’s a good kiwi attitude… to demand someone do something they don’t have to for you. Poor little princess. You take it with good grace and don’t expect. And don’t whine when you don’t get something that’s not yours, not your right… and not even any kind of actual problem. She had to wait for a chair. That’s it. Being disabled had nothing to do with it except it meant having to wait longer to get to her seat. Cry me a fucking river.

It’s funny isn’t it… she *wasn’t* given special treatment so…. ironic that she’s whining about being treated like everybody else?

How about I pull out one of those breeding class gems: get over yourself woman!!
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May 16, 2013 7:29pm
Lucia Maria

Johnboy,

I’m not so much a challenge as an impossibility. Friendly warning.

Kea,

Absolutely evidence for belief in God is required. My evidence, however, is personal. Which I can share, but it won’t necessarily convince you.
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May 16, 2013 7:34pm
Johnboy

I take it then that you are in the running for the next immaculate conception Lucia! 🙂
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May 16, 2013 7:38pm
nasska

You might have to hold on to Flossie after all JB. 🙂
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May 16, 2013 7:44pm
Kea

Lucia, real evidence is not personal. It stands on its own and it does not require faith to witness it.
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May 16, 2013 7:45pm
Johnboy

True nasska. I always fancied myself as Jesus the seconds dad however. 🙂
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May 16, 2013 7:47pm
Johnboy

Perhaps Flossie’s child could be called the lamb of Johnboy? 🙂
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May 16, 2013 7:49pm
Left Right and Centre

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10884113

smoking is bad for you
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May 16, 2013 7:49pm
Left Right and Centre

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=10884105

The genes made me spend all day stuffing my face with shit. Of course they did.
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May 16, 2013 7:54pm
Griff

Faith
in god
Faith in the Jesus zombie.
Eating his flesh drinking his blood
Wierd superstitious rubish
Or sound conmen sence .
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May 16, 2013 7:56pm
Redbaiter

Faith
in GW
Faith in the Gore zombie.
Eating his flesh drinking his blood
Wierd superstitious rubish
Or sound conmen sence .
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May 16, 2013 7:58pm
nasska

Two friends are discussing the possibility of love.
“I thought I was in love three times,” one friend says.

“How so?” his friend asks.

“Five years ago I deeply cared for a woman who wanted nothing
to do with me.”

“Was that not love?” his friend asks.

“No,” he replies. “That was obsession. And then two years ago
I deeply cared for an attractive woman who didn’t understand
me.”

“Was that love?”

“No,” he replies. “That was lust. And just last year I met a
woman aboard a cruise ship to the Caribbean. She was smart,
funny, and a great conversationalist. And everywhere we met
on that boat, I would get this strange sensation in the pit
of my stomach.”

“Was that love?” his friend asks.

“No,” he replies. “That was seasickness.”
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May 16, 2013 8:01pm
Johnboy

No sheep on Carnival Cruise’s then nasska?
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May 16, 2013 8:04pm
nasska

Only when the ship sails from Cardiff JB. 🙂
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May 16, 2013 8:07pm
Johnboy

Captain Griff in command…..well sort of….perhaps! 🙂
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May 16, 2013 8:08pm
Viking2

Hi John,

I work in a very PC not-quite-government-department. I’ve been working here for nearly 6 years, and my annual appraisal is about to come up.

One of the things that has come up each year is my reading and understanding of the Treaty as it relates to work.

So far, I’ve managed to evade this subject by just saying “I respect all cultures, and I believe we should all be treated equally”.

(Which is true, by the way.)

Last year, I was told in no uncertain terms that that was not going to be sufficient this year, and I’d have to actually read some of our policies regarding the “Treaty”.

Well, I don’t want to.

I don’t believe in the version of the Treaty that is being shoved down our throats. And quite frankly, I’m also sick and tired of being made out to be the “bad guy” because I’m white.

I’m pretty sure that my contract would have mentioned something about the Treaty. But can I get out of it? Can I say it goes against my “religious” or “cultural” beliefs”?

(Pretty sure that would only work if I was brown.)

I did read very briefly a recent statement which said “we realise Maori don’t have the same access to healthcare as others”. A quick poll at my clinic resulted in blank stares, and “What the hells?”

If you or anyone knows how I might be able to challenge this requirement, I’d love to hear from them.

Keep up the good work.

Regards,
(NAME WITHHELD FOR FEAR OF LOSING JOB)

http://bit.ly/10Zc5Ch
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May 16, 2013 8:26pm
Chuck Bird

Chuck Bird, it is as much an issue as your imaginary god.?

Kea. You made a statement – not me. What evidence do you have that I believe in a real or an imaginary God?
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May 16, 2013 8:32pm
Kea

Chuck Bird, there is no evidence to suggest there is a god. Do you have a point ?
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May 16, 2013 8:36pm
Chuck Bird

There is no evidence there is not a God. My point is that I am an agnostic.
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May 16, 2013 8:43pm
Nostalgia-NZ

V2 wrote a pretty good letter. I guess someone will understand it.
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May 16, 2013 8:47pm
UglyTruth

I don’t believe in the version of the Treaty that is being shoved down our throats.

Good for you. It’s a festering sore full of the Crown’s dishonour.

The chiefs did not cede sovereignty. The English text that says that they did is irrelevant because of the legal doctrine of contra proferentem, which is applied against the Crown’s interests since the Crown produced the ambiguity between the English and Maori texts concerning Maori sovereignty.

http://www.treatyeducators.org.nz/qa11
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May 16, 2013 9:03pm
Johnboy

Still UT seeing as the Chiefs are happy for the whanau to live like scum, while drinking up large on the Pakeha’s largesse themselves, do you have a solution to the appalling stats that are prevalent amongst Murri? 🙂
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May 16, 2013 9:11pm
Kea

Chuck Bird, agnostic my arse.

The term “agnostic” is silly and pointless. People do not claim to be “agnostic” about the tooth fairy and magic dragons. You are trying to put a buck both ways.

Usually when incredible claims are made with absolutely no evidence people simply say they do not believe, they do not claim agnosticism.
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May 16, 2013 9:18pm
wreck1080

New Zealand dollar in a bit of a freefall tonight — I wonder what is going on. Mind you , it might just bounce right back up before the morning.
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May 16, 2013 9:21pm
Kea

For most of its existence the treaty was considered legally worthless. Labour dragged it out of the dustbin to win votes. It is not binding law even today. Thanks to fuckwits like Justice Cooke we got “spirits” & “principles” inflicted on us.

The treaty is not a legal document and Maori should not be allowed to claim any rights under it.
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May 16, 2013 9:24pm
Johnboy

Wash your mouth out Kea. Just see what happens to the MRP share price when a Taniwha gets stuck in the Taupo floodgates! 🙂
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May 16, 2013 9:26pm
UglyTruth

Johnboy,
My opinion is that if the Maori elders disclaimed the Crown’s assumption of sovereignty over them then it would improve their lot no end. The chiefs were happy enough to trade with Europeans back in the day, perhaps an agreement over resources like waterways, fisheries, radio spectrum, etc would be better than the assumption of entitlement?
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May 16, 2013 9:52pm
UglyTruth

The treaty is not a legal document

Why do you say that, Kea?
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May 16, 2013 10:01pm
Kea

I did not say that Ugly, it was said by legal people at the time. It is not a legal document and for any provisions to be binding they must be made into law.

You started off telling us the treaty was a fraud, which invalidates it right away. You can not have it both ways.
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May 16, 2013 10:19pm
Kea

The Status of the Treaty as a Legal Document

“Currently the formal legal position of the Treaty of Waitangi is that it is legally effective in the New Zealand Courts to the extent that it is recognised in Acts of Parliament. The Treaty of Waitangi has no independent legal status.

http://www.trc.org.nz/treaty_legal

The legal effect of the Treaty of Waitangi has been described by the Privy Council in a passage frequently cited on this subject in the case of Hoani Te Heu Heu v Aotea District Maori Land Board [1941] AC 308 at p 324:

… .It is well settled that any rights purporting to be conferred by such a treaty of cession’ (sc The Treaty of Waitangi) ‘cannot be enforced in the Courts, except insofar as they have been incorporated in the municipal law …
This has generally been taken to mean that the Treaty of Waitangi does not create any legal rights that the Courts can enforce.

http://www.waitangi-tribunal.govt.nz/reports/viewchapter.asp?reportID=32147734-26c7-4d5e-812c-2da77ac2a578&chapter=7
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May 16, 2013 10:22pm
Kea

. In the judgment of Prendergast C.J. and Richmond J., delivered by the Chief Justice, the 1841 Ordinance was said to “express the well-known legal incidents of a settlement planted by a civilised Power in the midst of uncivilised tribes.” The Treaty of Waitangi was dismissed “as a simple nullity. No body politic existed capable of making a cession of sovereignty, nor could the thing itself exist.

Prepared by
Dr David V Williams
Associate Professor in Law
University of Auckland, Aotearoa New Zealand
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May 16, 2013 10:32pm
Bad__Cat

Viking2 (9,442) Says:
May 16th, 2013 at 8:26 pm
=====================

You could insinuate that your newfound belief in Islam does not permit other gods e.g. Te Tiriti, and quote some obscure reading from the Quran. Watch them sort that out without offending anyone!
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May 16, 2013 10:34pm
UglyTruth

You started off telling us the treaty was a fraud, which invalidates it right away

I didn’t say that. I said that the Crown had acted dishonourably.

The Treaty of Waitangi has no independent legal status.

Why would AWEA say that when other treaties do have independent legal status?

This has generally been taken to mean that the Treaty of Waitangi does not create any legal rights that the Courts can enforce.

That only means that the treaty is outside of the jurisdiction of the courts, not that it has no legal status.

The Treaty of Waitangi was dismissed “as a simple nullity. No body politic existed capable of making a cession of sovereignty, nor could the thing itself exist.

Straw man. There was no cession of sovereignty, so the argument that it was a nullity fails.
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May 16, 2013 10:55pm
Graeme2

Lucia Maria If you are looking for an example of “religion” infecting our law look at the recent situation where the helicopter pilot who hovered over Mt Cook was fined $3750 for sacrilege and gravely insulting Mt Cook who apparently is an Ancestor of Ngai Tahu.
As our Government signs more and more of these co-management deals this sort of nonsense is likely to increase.
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May 17, 2013 9:01am

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