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March 8, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 8 March 2013

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Rodders

LR & C – I wouldn’t go so far as to describe myself as a fan of regurgitation, but each to their own…
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March 9, 2013 7:21am
graham

I’m sorry to say this, but I can see why lprent banned you Pete. Because not only do you not get it, you appear incapable of accepting that you’re wrong.

You see yourself as some sort of Lone Ranger, a lone voice in the wilderness standing up for what’s right and true. And you feel that when you’re criticised, it vindicates you. It proves what you’ve been saying. You stand a little taller in your triumph, quietly smug in the knowledge that you’re right.

The problem is, you’re not.

You haven’t made people uncomfortable, you’ve just pissed them off. Because you have erroneously accused us of being part of a so-called “rape culture”. You have actually accused people of some pretty bloody nasty things on your blog. That this “rape culture” might just be an over-reaction by some people to what is, undoubtedly, a very real problem – the actual act of rape – never seems to occur to you. You seem incapable of accepting that you might have it wrong. And that the annoyance of some people might be due to the fact that you have accused them of being part of an extremely nasty culture which may not actually even exist in New Zealand to the degree that some people claim (except in their own fevered imaginations.

To paraphrase you, I know you won’t change your opinions but I did hope you might at least have been open minded enough to think about that possibility. I wish you were mature enough to think through some of the more sensible comments that have been made, Pete, but I fear you’re not. I fear you are incapable of accepting that you might just have made a bad mistake on this.
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March 9, 2013 10:33am
Cato

Graham, couldn’t have said it better than myself (and won’t try).

I will just add that i read today about the UN finally growing a pair about the real and observable.”rape culture” in the DR Congo. How could one not feel slandered when he is accused of supporting something like that just because he finds Pete George intolerably and unjustifiably self-regarding?
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March 9, 2013 10:59am
Manolo

Graham, thank you very much for explaining so clearly your position (and mine).
Hell will freeze over before P.G. admits any mistake on his part.
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March 9, 2013 11:07am
SPC

This is a blog which brings out reactionary attitudes to the words liberal and feminist, the term Maori Treaty rights, so it is not going to be instructive as to the wider culture.

So there were a lot of defensive posts on the rape culture meme. Some of the comments surprisingly mimicked views of some Moslems – an irony given that there is a dismissive attitude to allowing immigration by Moslems because they are not of our world view. Saying that were asking to being raped or placing themselves at risk of being raped simply for behaving as many young men hope they will – being out socialising and drinking with males. The classic was the line from Andrei was that these women did not deserve to be brides.

No one was stepping in and saying – there is no blame to the victim and no excuse for the rapist. Given the greater emphasis on false complaints – the tone was disturbing. While it did not confirm the rape culture meme (this is just a blog), it did show that a group of men and a few moralistic females could be reactionary and defensive on this topic – turn on anyone raising the issue.

It was if Pete George was a Scandinavian blonde alone at night walking past a group of Moslem immigrants and was asking for it. Rape is an act of predatory violence. A form of bullying.
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March 9, 2013 1:57pm
Cato

SPC can I put it to you that nobody on this thread either actually blamed the victim of any rape for the terrible crime against her? Can i further put it to you that scepticism of Pete George’s claim that NZ men other than him are uniquely prone to cause rape through a culture of rape does not imply tolerance of rape?

Lastly, do you know anyone who has been a victim of that crime? I do. I don’t know how she would take your comparing responsive criticism of Pete George on an internet blog with a vicious gang rape. I would suspect that if she tought anyone here had minimised rape – it would have been you just then.

Pull your head in. I think an apology is due.
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March 9, 2013 2:53pm
Pete George

graham, there appears to be quite a it about this that you don’ get yourself, and obviously others as well.

I know I’ve pushed boundaries on this, provoked reaction and provoked some thought (I hope). I don’t feel any need to apologise.

graham – would you admit if you got anything wrong?

You see yourself as some sort of Lone Ranger, a lone voice in the wilderness standing up for what’s right and true.

I don’t – you can speak forself but don’t make presumptions about how I see myself. To be frank you haven’t got a fucking idea about much what I think and how I see things.

I see myself as one of many voices in the blogosphere. I’m well aware that “what’s right” appears differently to different people. I try to promote and provoke different ideas and views and arguments.

And you feel that when you’re criticised, it vindicates you. It proves what you’ve been saying. You stand a little taller in your triumph, quietly smug in the knowledge that you’re right.

False assumptions again.

When I’m criticised I judge whether I think it’s justified or not and learn from it accordingly. Sometimes it may prove what I’m saying, sometimes it disproves it, most often it modifies my view.

I don’t ever feel like I triumph, political debate is always going to be a work in progress with no clear winners and losers.

You haven’t made people uncomfortable, you’ve just pissed them off.

Different ways of saying similar things.

You seem incapable of accepting that you might have it wrong.

Are you certain you have it right? Are you incapable of accepting you may not have it all right on this?

I wish you were mature enough to think through some of the more sensible comments that have been made, Pete, but I fear you’re not.

I have thought through some of the more sensible comments. And I have also observed many less sensible comments that add to the picture.

I fear you are incapable of accepting that you might just have made a bad mistake on this.

A bad mistake? What damage has been done apart from a few people getting pissed off?

I think it would be a bad mistake to pretend we don’t have significant problems in New Zealand’s culture of violence (including rape).

I think it would be a bad mistake to give tacit approval to what thugs and rapists think is ok if they can get away with it. I suggest you read Carlos’ comment again.

Violence and rape have been a part of western culture for a very long time, and some of that remains. And we all play a part in our culture, by our attitudes and actions and inactions.

Perhaps you are incapable of even considering you may have some of this wrong? Do you think you are totally right and I’m totally wrong?
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March 9, 2013 2:58pm
SPC

Cato, na I won’t pull my head in, I don’t fear anyone cutting it off because I don’t agree with them … . I suppose I have not been the victim of physical violence myself.

The talk of women who drank and who invited sexual attention as not being worthy of being brides was just part of the moralistic tone adopted by some whereas others proffered advice about how women could reduce risk to themselves (because drunk men could misbehave) – and the greater concern was for victims of false complaints – all a little too much like the old line about whether the raped woman was a virgin, and if not, was she really the victim …
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March 9, 2013 3:09pm
Cato

Pete – you are mostly wrong. Your essential point is that we have cultural problems that lead to too many rapes. Fine. Let’s leave aside where we stand in comparison to other countries and define terms. Articulate your program a little more.

What’s an acceptable level of rape for you, Pete? How many per day? Would just 100 rapes a year show there wasn’t a culture of rape?

Of course not. Because one rape is too many.

The point is – you keep patting yourself on the back for showing the normal human reaction to rape (disgust). You havent done anything useful about it – just proclaim your braveness on an internet blog and tell a few half baked anecdotes that reveal nothing else than that you hang out with people who think rape is a joke.

For the love of God…
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March 9, 2013 3:20pm
Pete George

Pete – you are mostly wrong.

That’s your opiniion, not a fact.

You havent done anything useful about it

You have absolutely no idea what I have or haven’t done about it.
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March 9, 2013 3:24pm
Cato

SPC – rereading this thread I can’t find any examples of anyone blaming rape on drunk females. The debate is whether NZ men, by virtue of our culture, have a special propensity towards sex crime.

Also, do you stand by your own conflation of criticising Pete George with gang raping a woman?
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March 9, 2013 3:31pm
Cato

“You have absolutely no idea what I have or haven’t done about it.”

Actually, that’s true. All i have seen is your preening and misguided self congratulation in the comments section of a blog. Please enlighten me on the rest of your program or whether that’s it.

Also, do you agree with SPC’s characterisation of scepticism about you to be tantamount to rape itself?
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March 9, 2013 3:37pm
Pete George

“rereading this thread I can’t find any examples of anyone blaming rape on drunk females.”
It was implied in the GD thread on Thursday.

I’ll have the slut marchers up in arms but women who don’t dress like harlots, don’t get drunk and come on to males who are also drunk, are extremely unlikely to be raped.

If you want to change “rape culture” a good start would be to encourage women behave like ladies and then men will almost certainly behave like gentlemen toward them.

That effectively blames the behaviour of women, including the behaviour of getting drunk. If not getting drunk and staying fully clothed prevented men from raping then there shouldn’t be any rape in Muslem cultures, should there.
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March 9, 2013 3:49pm
SPC

There were more examples than the one cited above.
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March 9, 2013 3:54pm
SPC

Cato, why the David Brent line insult to PG elsewhere? Is going after PG supposed to be a way to earn popularity with other posters here?

Playing the hard man on the board does not sit with the ideologist of the right role. Well it would be but only if it is the Inquisitor role you are going for.

As for your distortions of what I posted earlier, is this what happens when people don’t obey your warning to pull their head in – you are going to go after them?
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March 9, 2013 3:58pm
Cato

I agree that that comment – from another thread on another day – is offensive. I have never suggested that anyone other than raptists are to blame for rape. The issue today is whether your claims about the broader culture and your own program to combat it astack up.

To that end, i see that you have yet to decry SPC for comparing combox criticism of you to a most brutal rape. Doesn’t that minimise rape? Or do you think its accurate to describe your own victimhood that way?
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March 9, 2013 3:59pm
Cato

Pete George linked to a post about himself. Clearly he wanted to make his internet activities a topic for discussion.

I thought it was inaccurate and offered what I thought was a better example on the basis of his above comments.
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March 9, 2013 4:01pm
SPC

Cato, you presumably know the Sermon on the Mount well, where angry words were associated with a consequence in violence and then murder. Moslems justify rape on the basis of the womens behaviour, the women in daring to defy their cultural order somehow is said to invite their violence. Does PG in daring to defy the blog group party line by contending against it, then deserve and invite a form of group bullying.

The related issue is the blog line against Moslem immigrants because they are not part of our culture, – is this culture tolerant?
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March 9, 2013 4:08pm
Cato

I have no idea what you are trying to say. I also have no idea why you reached for a rape metaphor when the discussion was centred on that very, sensitive topic.
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March 9, 2013 4:13pm
Andrei

“rereading this thread I can’t find any examples of anyone blaming rape on drunk females.”
It was implied in the GD thread on Thursday.

Hah – Pete George that is not “blaming rape on drunk females “that is pointing out a reality of life”.

If you wear an expensive wrist watch and get pissed in the French Quarter of New Orleans you are likely to be releived of it – is pointing this sad fact of life out also offensive?

You are really are a dork.
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March 9, 2013 4:16pm
Pete George

Cato (and Kea) kept distorting things I said and made things up that were untrue, there’s not much chance of explaining things rationally to either of them.

But I’ll try and explain something.

Two years ago I was at Stopping Violence (an organisation that works at the coal face/bottom of the cliff) talking about how to address the culture of violence that exists in New Zealand.

I said that while I wasn’t a part of the problem because I wasn’t violent I wanted to help. I was quietly but firmly told that if I hadn’t done anything about it I was a part of the problem, part of the culture. I felt unfairly accused and fairly pissed off. But I went away and thought about it.

I thought back through my life and could remember things. A typical example – I was at rugby training one night and a teammate said something like “the missus gave me some lip last night so I sorted her out, she’ll be wearing sunnies for a few days”. And I winced and remained silent. And his missus likely went on being sorted out – until she left him a few years later. At least she survived, although no doubt mentally scarred, if not physically.

And my silence contributed, in a small way. Perhaps if I had had the guts to speak up[ and say “fuck that, it’s not on, that’s a crap way to deal with things” he (and others) may have started to learn that giving the bash wasn’t what everyone did, and eventually they might come to realise it was a bastard of a thing to do, caused problems and solved nothing.

And that may have saved his missus some major grief, and him, and his marriage, and his kids may have grown up without believing violence was a normal part of family life.
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March 9, 2013 4:20pm
SPC

Cato, closing ones ears when this is convenient is not uncommon. And yes of course discovering the usefulness of a secular PC is also convenient in some debates. It just shows your adaptability, there are many means to an end.
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March 9, 2013 4:24pm
Cato

Ok Pete – thanks for providing some context around this. I personally think I would stand for a man hitting a woman. Even a mate – and I was a rugby player too, you know. None of my teammates acted like that (as far as I know). Perhaps it is a generational thing.

Clearly that encounter affected you in some way, however, and I’m not surprised you feel the need to atone for your prior act of cowardliness. All I ask is that in future you lead with that self-criticism rather than come out swinging at people you don’t know.

I’m going to shut off from this topic because we are clearly at an impasse.

I note that you have yet to tick SPC off for his own rape minimisation – though it’s certainly worse than anything I have ever said.
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March 9, 2013 4:30pm
SPC

Cato, FFS do you still not get it, do you want to tick Jesus off for comparing angry words to murder in the Sermon on the Mount for “murder” minimisation.
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March 9, 2013 4:44pm
Pete George

Cato, I gave that as an example. Perhaps you have led a perfect life and have never left something undealt with that should have been.

However saying you are going to shut off and then continuing to criticise is not being perfect. I haven’t paid much attention to what you say SPC said, you have misinterpreted a number of things I have said quite badly so i didn’t put much credibility on what you claimed.

I note you have yet to tick Kea and Andre etc off for their rape minimisation, you seem to be very selective about who you try to hold to account.

Andre is still totally blind to blaming victims and making excuses for perpetrators of rape and theft.
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March 9, 2013 4:45pm
Cato

Oh yes. Sorry. Didn’t realise you were comparing yourself to Jesus there SPC.
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March 9, 2013 4:45pm
Cato

See at 3.59 Pete.

I have maintained the whole time that the only way men should behave is by only initiating sex when they are in a trusted, committed relationship. If they do that, they can (usually) be sure not to have any issues with consent. I just fail to see how that comment is ‘rape enabling’.

As for questions of ‘perfection’ I hardly think it takes moral perfection to express disapproval of wife beating. I would suspect that, for most men – perfect or not – it would just seem like the decent and obvious thing to do – especially if its not a hypothetical comment like your team mate.

Maybe it was a different era, and it was once acceptable to just shrug your shoulders. It’s not now. I am glad you have come around but I’m just not sure you deserve that much praise for it.
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March 9, 2013 4:54pm
Pete George

And a great example of how one voice prepared to speak up against a step too far in a culture of violence and can make a major difference is here: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/03/the_drone_filibuster.html
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March 9, 2013 4:55pm
Andrei

What is your malfunction Pete George?

NOBODY IS MAKING EXCUSES FOR ANYONE!!!!!!!!

In this wicked world there are things you can do to reduce your chances of being a victim of crime – Duh
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March 9, 2013 4:56pm
Cato

“It was [as] if Pete George was a Scandinavian blonde alone at night walking past a group of Moslem immigrants and was asking for it.”

Was that an acceptable comparison Pete? It was made in your name.
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March 9, 2013 4:58pm
Pete George

Maybe it was a different era, and it was once acceptable to just shrug your shoulders. It’s not now.

That’s extremely naive or ignorant. It now seems common for mates to kick victims in the head as well as the kinghitter. And more often the perps and mates are female. It’s widely acknowledged that there is still a terrible culture of violence in New Zealand.

I’ve seen violence advocated as a solution frequently on Kiwiblog. Maybe you haven’t noticed that at all Cato, because I haven’t noticed you speaking against it. There was some quite violent language on a thread you were participating in a couple of days ago. Maybe you only see wrong in select targets.
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March 9, 2013 5:05pm
SPC

Cato, how is comparing ones argument to one Jesus used, comparing oneself to Jesus? QED. You do know what QED means don’t you?

My comment no more miminised rape than his did murder. Yet you want only one of us to be held accountable for it. Is that not hypocrisy?
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March 9, 2013 5:06pm
Pete George

Andre – so if a church brazenly displays valuable ornaments and someone steals them it’s the church’s fault? If someone throws a rock through a stained glass window it’s the church’s fault for providing a tempting target?
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March 9, 2013 5:08pm
Cato

Maybe. Could be I live a sheltered life with decent family, friends, colleagues and team mates.

Judge me if you will, PG, for allegedly not speaking out. But I promise I will never bite my lip if a friend tells me he beat up his girlfriend.
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March 9, 2013 5:08pm
SPC

Cato, what about mob behaviour do you not understand – the topic was rape culture.
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March 9, 2013 5:09pm
Cato

I think this thread speaks for itself now. Seeya.
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March 9, 2013 5:09pm
Cato

PS I just note that your claim I have been soft on alleged violence advocated on this blog seems incongruous against your earlier, repeated protestation that we could not take other countries crime statistics into account when determining if NZ is particularly bedevilled by a “culture of rape.” By your own logic, either you chose to do something about real violence or you didn’t. You didn’t. I am glad you are contrite.
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March 9, 2013 5:16pm
Nostradamus

Pete George:

Wow, with your 7:18am response to me, I think you’ve just morphed into Philu. I haven’t contributed to this debate, and was simply offering my views, as a passive bystander. Your response was, frankly, over-the-top and shows that you are particularly sensitive on this subject.

Nostradamus, do you think all bloggers who take comments and “summarise” or “paraphrase” or “report” them at another blog are rude and intellectually dishonest? Becasue it’s standard blog practice. And journalists have been doing it since newspapers were invented.

That isn’t what I said.

You seem to have missed the important qualification in what I said: “(having stirred up a hornet’s nest, for the apparent purpose of provoking those comments, but without having offered a substantiated argument of your own)“.

The assessment I made yesterday, having read through the thread, was that you’d come charging onto a Kiwiblog thread for two days in a row, making sweeping assertions, which you failed to substantiate when repeatedly asked to do so. That was, as I say, my assessment – others clearly seem to agree.

I’ve been very open and honest. I have been commenting across blogs for a long time. I get criticised for the frequency I provide links showing what I do and where I do it. You and others knew where I was commenting because you followed the links you grizzle about. To act surprised now and saying “look what he’s doing!” seems a bit disingenuous.

Again, that isn’t what I said.

Unlike you, apparently, I don’t trawl across multiple blogs. I have a busy life and Kiwiblog is pretty much the only one I read. I didn’t know where you were commenting, except for Graham’s link. Others may not have known either, except for Graham’s link.

The issue is that you presumed to “summarise” and “paraphrase” what others have said, as somehow supporting an argument you’ve yet to substantiate, all apparently for the purpose of getting kudos at another blog. That, in my view, is not good blog ettiquette. Your behaviour was different from, say, posting a link to specific comments at Kiwiblog that, in your view, backed up your position. Instead, you purported to “summarise” and “paraphrase” them. I suspect the distinction is lost on you. But considering that you bang on about blog ettiquette all the time, I would have expected a bit more intellectual honesty from you.

Again, why should this [adopting a different commenting style at The Daily Blog] be a surprise? I’m sure your style would be “slightly different” if you commented at The Daily Blog or The Standard or Whale Oil. Your comment at 8.24pm is more than “slightly diffferent” in style to other comments you’ve made here.

I don’t comment at other blogs. But I’m sure my commenting style would be the same – expressing my views, and not playing to the local crowd. My 8:24pm comment was, I believe, balanced and not over-the-top. So, no, not more than slightly different in style to other comments I’ve made here. I’ll see if anyone else agrees with your assessment on that.

<blockquote
I find it interesting to see who has attacked me over this, who has reacted and how they have reacted. Few have openly questioned the nature of comments directed at me that have included extreme abuse and lies – but that’s not surprising, who would want to volunteer to be a target like I have been?.

Nostradamus, I have been “summarised” and “paraphrased” on this issue here with blatant misrepresentations and intellectual dishonesty – either through ignorance of what I have actually said or deliberately lying in order to attack and discredit me. But that obviously isn’t something you are bothered about.

I pushed boundaries on this and I knew it would make some people uncomfortable. That was my intention. I think our violence and rape cultures have been proven by the nature of some of the reactions. Some people obviously don’t it being pointed out that they are examples of something they are trying to deny. Too bad. I know I won’t change some of your opinions but I hope I have provoked some thinking amongst the more open minded.

Again, you’ve completely missed the point. As I said, I am not getting involved in the substance of the debate. Others commenting on your views have, as far as I know, expressed them here and not run off to other blogs to do so. So all this is a bit of a smokescreen. You do seem to be holding yourself up as a shining beacon of… virtue? Fine, but at least substantiate your argument, and stop trying to frame others’ arguments in a way that serves your own agenda on other blogs.

One thing I haven’t been accused of on this is that old favourite diss, sitting on the fence.

That’s not the issue here.

Pete, I haven’t agreed with everything you’ve said at Kiwiblog, but at least we’ve been able to discuss issues in a rational way. On this issue, for some reason, you’ve completely morphed into Philu. The fact that you see everyone who points this out as somehow demonstrating the truth of your “arguments” (whatever they are) doesn’t paint you in a good light.
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March 9, 2013 8:13pm
Pete George

The fact that you see everyone who points this out as somehow demonstrating the truth of your “arguments” (whatever they are) doesn’t paint you in a good light.
The actual fact is you’re wrong, I don’t, as I’ve already explained.

which you failed to substantiate when repeatedly asked to do so. That was, as I say, my assessment – others clearly seem to agree.

I’ve explained my views a lot this topic, in fact it is my views that some have strongly disagreed with rather than failure to substantiate. There’s plenty of evidence of this.

I note that you haven’t argued about the message, just the messenger.

Is likening me to Philu another way of trying to build crowd support for discrediting? I could accuse you of morphing into Redbaiter but that would be as innaccurate and irrelevant to the issue.
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March 10, 2013 6:34am

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