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February 25, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 25 February 2013

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chiz

Hinamanu:

World-renowned educator and human rights activist Jim Garrow says that the source, man regarded as “one of America’s foremost military heroes,” told him that President Obama is using a new litmus test for “determining who will stay and who must go” among top-ranked military leaders. That test is whether they will fire on US citizens or not. Garrow says that his source made the disclosure in order to “sound the alarm” over the administration’s plans.

Jim Garrow is so renowned that the Wikipedia doesn’t even have an entry on him!! Fortunately there other websites that explain who he is. For example, it turns out that his doctorate in theology is an honorary one, done for his work in China trafficking children to westerners, that was granted by a non-accredited school. He has a history of business failures. He was fined and suspended by the Ontario college of teachers for abusing students. A former landlord has described him as a conman, and a former student has blogged that he is crazy. He has, over the years, claimed that his wife was a Nuclear physicist, that he owned original Picassos, that his charity organisation won second place in the Nobel prizes. Oh, and the Nobel nomination? It turns out that he is the source of this claim, but he has no verification of this and is unwilling to name his supposed nominators because of, you know, the political problems that it would cause. The nomination was for his work in preventing the deaths of unwanted or second children in China by trafficking them to the west except that media have been unable to find any evidence that he is indeed doing this, or on the huge scale he claims, and at least one person named on his website as being involved in his Pink Pagoda program has stated that they aren’t involved and don’t know anything about it.

Basically, he’s a liar. More on him, here, and in the comments thread there, here, and here.

Snopes also debunk this claim and reveals that Garrow is a sandy hook conspiracy theorist.
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February 25, 2013 6:34pm
Viking2

Benefit fraud trebles in a decade

According to the Herald benefit fraud has trebled in just over a decade from $8.1M in 2005 to $23.4M in 2011.

Total benefits fraud 
2005-06 $8.1m 
2006-07 $7.5m 
2007-08 $6.4m 
2008-09 $11.1m 
2009-10 $15.9m 
2010-11 $22.6m 
2011-12 $23.4m

http://brendanslongblog.blogspot.co.nz/2013/02/benefit-fraud-trebles-in-decade.html
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February 25, 2013 7:07pm
Viking2

This will make the whale even happier than he already is.

APN tax case heads to High Court

APN News & Media is heading to the High Court over a $48 million tax claim after failing to convince the Inland Revenue Department that its deductions for interest claimed on certain financing transactions was correct.

The publisher of the NZ Herald newspaper had hoped to resolve the dispute via the IRD’s adjudication unit, whose work is aimed at resolving claims at an early stage to reduce the number of litigated cases.

But the unit advised the company on Friday that it agrees with IRD’s position, meaning the tax department will shortly issue APN with notices of assessment denying the deductions.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10867575

and perhaps they should look at the 700 million of masthead depreciation that they claimed as well.
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February 25, 2013 7:22pm
UglyTruth

Jim Garrow is so renowned that the Wikipedia doesn’t even have an entry on him!!

Honestly, Chiz, Wikipedia is the last place to go for facts on an issue like Obama’s readiness to kill US citizens. It has links to Cass Sunstein’s cognitive infiltration programme (for example its history in promoting the AGW agenda).

http://www.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/
http://tarpley.net/2011/01/20/wikileaks-cognitive-infiltration-operation/
http://www.examiner.com/article/jimmy-wales-contradicts-the-rest-of-the-internet

The Jim Garrow episode seems to me to be a convenient straw man in the context of Benghazi, where Chris Stevens and others were left without military support even though there was a clear warning of an impending attack.
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February 25, 2013 7:47pm
nasska

I’m all for private enterprise but ‘corporates’ worry me. The following is a little out of date but gives a fair idea of who feeds the USA.

Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ztgaua98pkmu1ja/Corporate%20brands.jpg
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February 25, 2013 7:49pm
chiz

UglyTruth:Wikipedia is the last place to go for facts on an issue like Obama’s readiness to kill US citizens.

That isn’t why I looked up Garrow on the Wikipedia. I looked him up to see who he was. If he was world-renowned as hinamanu claimed you would expect there to be something on him. The fact that there isn’t anything at all shows that he isn’t world-renowned.

The fact that he turns out to be a serial liar undermines his story, and as Snopes point out, this story has been circulating for decades and is just an urban legend.
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February 25, 2013 7:56pm
wat dabney

Readiness to kill citizens? That’s crazy talk.

“Is Your Local Police Department Using Pictures of Pregnant Women and Children for Target Practice?”

http://reason.com/blog/2013/02/19/is-your-local-police-department-using-pi
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February 25, 2013 7:58pm
nasska

Murphy’s’ old lady was pregnant and now the time had come.

He took her to the doctor and the doctor began to deliver
the baby.

She had a little boy, and the doctor looked over at Murphy
and said. ‘Hey, Murph! You just had you a son!

‘Ain’t dat grand!!’ Murphy got excited by this, but just
then the doctor spoke up and said, ‘Hold on! We ain’t
finished yet!’

The doctor then delivered a little girl.

He said, ‘Hey, Murph! You got you a daughter!!!! She is a
pretty lil ting, too….’

Murphy got kind of puzzled by this and then the doctor said,
‘Hold on, we aint got done yet!’

The doctor then delivered another boy and said, ‘Murph, you
just had yourself another boy!’

Murphy said to the doctor, ‘Doc, what caused all of dem
babies?’

The doctor said, ‘You never know Murph, it was probably
something that happened during conception.’

Murphy said, ‘Ah yeah, during conception.’

When Murph and his wife went home with their three children,
he sat down with his wife and said, ‘Mama, you remember dat
night that we ran out of Vaseline and we had to use dat
dere 3-in-1 Oil.’

She said, ‘Yeah, I remember dat night…’

Murph said, ‘I’ll tell you, …….it’s a fookin’ good ting
we didn’t use WD-40.’
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February 25, 2013 8:00pm
UglyTruth

Chiz, the points you missed were Wikipedia’s political bias and the connection between Garrow, Sandy Hook, and Benghazi. The connection is official complicity in the killing of US citizens.

Snopes did a pretty good job of debunking Sandy Hook, but they skipped the suspects in possible nun outfits in the purple van (from the police radio log).
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February 25, 2013 8:20pm
Pauleastbay

Romantic movies ruin relationships. They give women unrealistic expectations about what to expect from men. Porn has the same effect on men.
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February 25, 2013 8:31pm
nasska

I hate it when you offer someone a sincere compliment on their moustache and suddenly she’s not your friend anymore.
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February 25, 2013 8:42pm
Johnboy

Thank Christ Murphy never dipped his crank in Hypoid 140! 🙂
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February 25, 2013 8:49pm
kowtow

Multiculturalism. Great innit?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9888310/Lets-talk-about-the-exodus-of-600000-whites-from-London.html
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February 25, 2013 8:50pm
chiz

So, Uglytruth – you’re suggesting that the reason why Wikipedia has nothing on Garrow is because of some conspiracy?
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February 25, 2013 9:07pm
Griff

Suspects in possible nun outfits in the purple van
😆
conspirowhackys
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February 25, 2013 9:12pm
chiz

Early christians weren’t actually persecuted by Romans, says historian:

It didn’t help that early Christians developed a passion for martyrdom. Suffering demonstrated both the piety of the martyr and the authenticity of the religion itself, and besides, it earned you an immediate, first-class seat in heaven. (Ordinary Christians had to wait for Judgment Day.) There were reports of fanatics deliberately seeking out the opportunity to die for their faith, including a mob that turned up at the door of a Roman official in Asia Minor, demanding to be martyred, only to be turned away when he couldn’t be bothered to oblige them.

Very pythonesque.
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February 25, 2013 9:29pm
UglyTruth

Chiz, I’m not suggesting that, Wikipedia has nothing on countless numbers of people. The point that I was trying to make was that getting the whole story on a controversial issue like official complicity in the killing of citizens involves digging a little, and not relying on Wikipedia. Also, although much of the reporting on issues like may look like conspiracy, it is hard to prove criminal intent on the part of the reporters or people like Snopes.

What I am saying is that there is a significant body of evidence that connects events like the Port Arthur killings and Sandy Hook to a political agenda of gun control and a more oppressive state.
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February 25, 2013 9:40pm
UglyTruth

conspirowhackys

Solid argument there, Griff, I can see how you would go for the official position on AGW.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETkrxfYoQtc&feature=player_detailpage#t=5660s

At 1:34:19, “Two occupants with possible ski masks”.

At 1:35:07, “One may be wearing a nun outfit, headed toward Danbury and Stoney Hill, purple van”.
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February 25, 2013 9:51pm
Griff

conspirowhacky 😆
nutjob
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February 25, 2013 9:58pm
chiz

UglyTruth:Wikipedia has nothing on countless numbers of people

Yes, but, by and large, that’s because they’re nobodies. There are lots of obscure people in the Wikipedia. Hinamanu claimed that Garrow was wolrd-renowned. The fact there isn’t anything at all in there on him – not even a one-line entry – shows that this claim is false and that he isn’t world-renowned. He appears to be nothing more than a conman who has been investigated by the media, and the police, once or twice rather than a “world-renowned educator and human rights activist”.

Hinamanu got sucked in by his/her source basically.
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February 25, 2013 10:09pm
UglyTruth

conspirowhacky
nutjob

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~j097/CONSP01.htm

CRITICAL THINKING ABOUT CONSPIRACY THEORIES

No serious historian denies that a somewhat amateurish conspiracy lay behind the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, or that a more professional but sadly less successful conspiracy attempted to assassinate Adolf Hitler in the summer of 1944. Yet such is the presumption behind the cock-up stance that the existence or frequency of genuine conspiracies is often significantly downplayed.
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February 25, 2013 10:15pm
UglyTruth

Chiz, the fact that somebody isn’t in Wikipedia doesn’t mean that they’re not world renowned, eg Dr. Asher Kimchi

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/2/prweb10458633.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=Dr.+Asher+Kimchi&button=&title=Special%3ASearch
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February 25, 2013 10:35pm
bereal

poor old Griff.

Now there is a very, very sad sack case.

nutjob or conspitorwacky ?

whichever it is , it’s so very sad that he puts so much effort into, devotes everything he has into ….

why does he waste his energy ?
Day in, day out. Year in, yearr out.

has he nothing else, poor sod.

why not just get a life Griff ?

Think. How much more productive your sad life could be.
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February 25, 2013 10:47pm
Reid

genuine conspiracies

You realise of course Travistock has a meme going on this, it’s been in place for decades. It is why people hesitate to say what they really think – lest they be j’accused [of being a nut].

It is why for example even though looking at JFK it’s obvious it wasn’t LHO acting alone, people won’t say that unless someone else in the room says it first. Lest they be j’accused, you see. Even though it’s so obvious in that case you’d have to be a village idiot with a lobotomy not to have privately concluded it.

But you see, Travistock rely on the implications. They’re unthinkable. After all, if JFK really wasn’t killed by LHO acting alone, this means the US govt [gasp] has covered it up for over 50 years. And with President after President, Administration after Administration, how could that possibli be? SOMEONE would have said something. SOMETHING would have leaked. THEREFORE, it didn’t happen like that, and there MUST, there HAS TO BE some other explanation.

That’s the Travistock meme you see. It just COULDN’T be true based on the world as [x] knows it, THEREFORE it is NOT true. It CAN’T be. And you can run through the list, on and on and on and on. And it goes way back before JFK of course, I just use that because it’s the “classic” example which most people would recognise. And it’s happened since too, of course. Many times, since then. Very recently in fact.

But that thinking, sadly, is the level of the memers a.k.a. most people alive.

Not because it’s not true, but simple because their hearts and minds just can’t deal with two opposing concepts at the same time.

And it’s got nothing to do with intelligence, it has everything to do with emotional balance.
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February 25, 2013 10:49pm
chiz

Kimchi may be internationally recognized – but only among cardiologists. That’s not the same thing as being, supposedly, a world-renowned human rights activist. Human rights activists are generally better known among the public than cardiologists.
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February 25, 2013 10:52pm
Griff

http://www.philosophersbeard.org/2010/08/conspiracy-thinking-part-ii.html

This calls for two things. Firstly we need a bullshit detector to identify the cases, and sometimes the people, one should avoid taking at all seriously, while bearing in mind that there can be real and nasty conspiracies, sometimes reaching all the way to the tops of governments (Rwanda, Watergate, Suez, etc). Conspiracy thinkers typically assert that all they are doing is following a skeptical stance to received information. In fact what they are following is a radical epistemic stance of ‘possibilism’ – anything that is possible deserves equal status and consideration as knowledge. This position completely rejects one of the central concerns and foundations of successful civilisation: the project of cumulatively and collectively enhancing our understanding of how the world works. They ask, ‘How do you know the Jews/Free Masons/French government aren’t behind this [unusual world event]?’ They say, ‘It is up to the Official Story to prove itself by disproving every other possibility’. In fact it is the skeptic who has the burden of proving the plausibility of her critique.

Secondly we need to stand up to the nonsense propagated by conspiracy thinkers. What they are doing is not harmless. It is drivel but it is dangerous drivel that can kill people directly, or crowd out and make impossible rational debate (and hence grown-up politics), leading to yet further conspiracy thinking and nastiness.

Since conspiracy theorists often claim that the world actually works quite differently than our common sense tells us, discrepancies there don’t necessarily provide a simple way to distinguish bullshit. Internal coherence is therefore a useful independent test since, in principle, it can be used to assess the 1st order sensibleness of a claim even under the charitable assumption that the world is like that. In principle this should also provide an alternative route to criticising conspiracy claims in terms the conspiracy thinkers themselves might accept, since the problem is not that they are stupid, but that they come to foolish conclusions.
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February 25, 2013 11:00pm
Kea

Yes enough of the conspiracies. Lets stick with facts :

Like all MPs, Tim Yeo is paid £65,000 a year. But he never has to make do with just that. Last year alone, three ‘green’ companies paid the Conservative MP for South Suffolk £135,970.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2283558/How-MPs-pay-subsidised-eco-firms-set-insane-new-carbon-targets-send-heating-bills-sky-rocketing.html#ixzz2LsVkhwgQ

EXPLODING THE MYTHS ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE
MYTH The world is continually getting warmer.
TRUTH Official Met Office data shows no statistically significant global temperature rise since January 1997. The fact was confirmed last week by Raj Pachauri, chairman of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Many scientists say this means forecasts of how much warmer the world will be by 2100 must be revised downwards. Pachauri disagreed: for him to be convinced, the ‘pause’ would have to last 30 years.

MYTH Global warming is already causing extreme weather.
TRUTH If anything, weather has become less, not more extreme in the past 50 years. Professor Roger Pielke Jr of Colorado University – no climate sceptic – last week said that the past seven years had been the longest period ever recorded without a Category 3 or stronger hurricane hitting America, and that drought has decreased since the mid-20th Century. The IPCC admits there is no evidence that global warming has caused more storms in the tropics.

MYTH If we don’t take swift, drastic action to cut CO2 emissions, the world will soon become uninhabitable
TRUTH The ‘pause’ in rising temperatures, along with new research into the decline in the sun’s output and other natural factors, is leading many scientists to lower estimates of how fast carbon dioxide warms the world. Until now, the IPCC has suggested that doubling CO2 causes a worrying increase of 3.5C, but many experts say it is about 1.7C. The computer models still say the world will be at least 2C warmer by the end of the century, but they failed to predict the pause.

MYTH We’ve got to do our bit, even if it hurts. If we cut emissions, the rest of the world will follow.
TRUTH The fiasco of the 2009 UN climate conference in Copenhagen proved that China, India, Brazil and other fast-growing nations are simply not prepared to make any binding commitments to reduce their emissions. However, by cutting our own ever more deeply, all we do is increase the already rocketing price of our energy and so drive jobs abroad – while making almost no difference to world CO2 levels.

MYTH The faster we cut carbon in our power generation, the more prosperous we will be.
TRUTH We face declining energy capacity, while the Government targets on 2030 emissions would mean few firms will be willing to invest in the one proven type of power source – gas – that can fill the gap relatively cheaply. Instead of ‘green growth’, we face years of impoverished stagnation, while industry flees Britain and our sky-high energy prices.

MYTH The Arctic is going to be ice-free in summer in a few years.
TRUTH Although last summer saw a return to the relatively low levels of ice seen in 2007, the growth of Arctic winter ice this year is the fastest on record. Canadian archaeologists have been finding evidence the ice cover shrank to half its current extent during a warm period 7,000 years ago – but never vanished entirely.
.
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February 25, 2013 11:10pm
Griff

hinkprogress.org/climate/2013/02/05/1545421/denial-river-conspiracy-thinking-in-the-climate-blogosphere-in-response-to-research-on-conspiracy-thinking/ 😆
Conspiracist ideation has been repeatedly implicated in the rejection of scientific propositions, although empirical evidence to date has been sparse. A recent study involving visitors to climate blogs found that conspiracist ideation was associated with the rejection of climate science and the rejection of other scientific propositions such as the link between lung cancer and smoking, and between HIV and AIDS (Lewandowsky, Oberauer, & Gignac, in press; LOG12 from here on). This article analyzes the response of the climate blogosphere to the publication of LOG12. We identify and trace the hypotheses that emerged in response to LOG12 and that questioned the validity of the paper’s conclusions. Using established criteria to identify conspiracist ideation, we show that many of the hypotheses exhibited conspiratorial content and counterfactual thinking. For example, whereas hypotheses were initially narrowly focused on LOG12, some ultimately grew in scope to include actors beyond the authors of LOG12, such as university executives, a media organization, and the Australian government. The overall pattern of the blogosphere’s response to LOG12 illustrates the possible role of conspiracist ideation in the rejection of science, although alternative scholarly interpretations may be advanced in the future.
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February 25, 2013 11:14pm
axeman

Not only the Artic Kea. The Antarctic sea ice area anomaly has been increasing at a rate of half a million km² per year. If this alarming trend continues, the planet will be completely covered with Antarctic ice in 1,000 years. The Australian coral reefs will freeze to death in less than 300 years. 🙂

For every scary piece of data held up by ALARMISTS as proof of man-made global warming, it seems a bit of contrary evidence is uncovered — and, of course, is ignored. Let’s see what Antarctica is telling us.

http://www.thegwpf.org/antarctic-ice-planet/
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February 25, 2013 11:20pm
Kea

Hay Griff, do you know there are actually nutters out there who think the world is ending because of white people and capitalism and that something called BIG OIL and the “Carbon Industry” [chuckle] are trying to cover it up by paying scientists to hide the terrible truth (about the world ending) ?
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February 25, 2013 11:20pm
Kea

axeman, your concerns are well founded and are shared by those with access to the latest science.

Climate Scientists Predicts a ‘Mini Ice Age’ in the Future Amid Evidence Of Sun’s Diminishing Acitivity

NASA’s prediction that the sun’s next 11-year activity phase or “Cycle 25: will be one of the weakest in centuries and is likely to decrease until 2100, has led some scientists to foresee a “mini ice age” in the future.

Experts at NASA and the University of Arizona analyzed data derived from magnetic-field measurements 120,000 miles beneath the sun’s surface and concluded that Cycle 25, whose peak is due in 2022, will be a great deal weaker still.

According to climate scientists, after emitting unusually high levels of energy throughout the 20th Century, the sun is now heading towards a “grand minimum” in its output, threatening cold summers, bitter winters and a shortening of the season available for growing food.

Data issued recently by the Met Office and the University of East Anglia Climatic Research Unit confirmed that the rising trend in world temperatures ended in 1997.
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February 25, 2013 11:29pm
axeman

MYTH The world is continually getting warmer.
TRUTH Official Met Office data shows no statistically significant global temperature rise since January 1997. The fact was confirmed last week by Raj Pachauri, chairman of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Many scientists say this means forecasts of how much warmer the world will be by 2100 must be revised downwards. Pachauri disagreed: for him to be convinced, the ‘pause’ would have to last 30 years.

Yeah the Indian train driver seems to be able to accept it. Then Pachauri quietly pretends to like skeptics. It’s all PR to keep the gravy train running. 🙂

http://joannenova.com.au/2013/02/pachauri-quietly-blows-goalposts-away-pretends-to-like-skeptics-its-all-pr-to-keep-the-gravy-train-running/
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February 25, 2013 11:30pm
Kea

axeman, Pachauri is yet another example of a humble weatherman promoted above his abilities. The rot set in when we started calling weathermen “scientists” even though they had a well deserved reputation for being no more accurate than fortune tellers at predicting future events.

We all used to enjoy a good laugh at matching the weathermans computer generated weather predictions with actual events. It is less funny now that people with other motives are using the simple weatherman as a vehicle for political change. Sad really.
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February 25, 2013 11:41pm
Griff

Conspiracy nutters 😆
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February 25, 2013 11:43pm
bort_simpson

R.I.P. Bain thread. cruelly euthanised in the prime of it’s brief existence on this message board, we will remember you.
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February 25, 2013 11:48pm
axeman

Pachauri seems to be able to accept it, the UK Met Office has tacitly conceded that the sceptics are correct
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100197657/the-met-office-defending-the-indefensible-as-per-usual/

And even uber-ALARMIST James Annan admits “high climate sensitivity increasingly untenable”
http://notrickszone.com/2013/02/01/staggering-admission-by-james-annan-high-climate-sensitivity-increasingly-untenable/

Yet we will have to put up with the ALARMISTS’ useful idiot gwiffucknuckle, spinning the OLD bullshit CAGW line 🙂

Face it GRIEF, the wheels are falling off and your alarmist hoax 🙁 will be over soon …

HISTORY OF GLOBAL WARMING SCEPTICISM

“First they tried to convince us with the evidence
Then when we showed the evidence didn’t support them, they manufactured the evidence
Then when we explained that their “evidence” didn’t prove their case
… They tried to tell us we (the majority) were the ill-informed minority
Then when it became clear we were far from ill-informed and far less a small minority.
They tried to ridicule us
Then when we laughed at their attempts to ridicule us
They tried to sue us
Then when they realised that threatening to sue when the evidence supported us
They tried to tell us we were mad. etc.
Finally … in the face of overwhelming evidence and lack of public interest in their non-science they get over their tantrum, they stop writing idiotic papers to journals and stop helping to write ridiculous articles for journalists … it all goes quite
and then they try to pretend it never happened.”
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February 26, 2013 12:07am
Azeraph

Don’t you love it when someone says “Job creation” in fields that take a whole lot of retraining or better yet hire cheaper immigrant labour to do it rather than retrain?

I would like to know what sample and demographic all these national polls are getting their numbers from with their popular vote?

Here’s your conspiracy, you see it just about everyday.

Then the herald gets hammered for doctoring the poll. What makes you think national spin ringstingers don’t either?

What did these idiots think? That there wasn’t going to be a period of mass loss before the new change began? It’s just like our navy, we don’t have any sailors anymore. There’s one thing i’ve learned in life is that people love to be talk beaten into accepting something if the uncertainty of their future can be introduced. Typical national tactic. Hosking should be sacked off his morning show as he geeks out nationals look.
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February 26, 2013 12:44am
Manolo

Knowledge of geography is required for the job: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/341461/kerrys-first-gaffe-kyrzakhstan-nathaniel-botwinick
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February 26, 2013 6:15am

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