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February 23, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 23 February 2013

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General Debate

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Harriet

I see all the ‘wise ones’ are out again tonight being intolerant to what they don’t believe exists.

Atheism expressed is a sign of madness! 😎
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February 23, 2013 9:23pm
eszett

Scott, I am sure you can find 50 people of every religion that will testify what they think their specific version of god has done in their lives.

Will you then accept Allah as your true and only god when you hear their testimony?
Will you accept Scientology?
Or will you convert to Judaism?
Not to mention each and every variant of christianity?
And what about Hindism? Will you stop eating beef?

You will also find enough people who will testify how homeopathy has healed them or how their horoscope has come true.

Or will you just reject all other testimonies and accept only the ones that confirm your beliefs?

After all, they can’t all be true.

This is typical to all religions and irrational beliefs. People will attribute good things that happens to devine interventions of their particular choosing or whatever they choose to believe, while bad things to anything else or ignore them all together.

Confirmation bias at it’s best.
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February 23, 2013 9:28pm
Reid

Atheism expressed is a sign of madness!

Isn’t it a pity the mad don’t know they are?

Lots of problems wouldn’t even arise if that weren’t the case.

I mean just look at this thread, for example.
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February 23, 2013 9:37pm
David Garrett

Well here we are…twelve hours later, and I am smugly amused to find the ” There is no God – Yes there is” debate still going on…again.

Funnily enough, no-one seems to have reached a definitive conclusion, and neither side appears to have made an impression on the other…
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February 23, 2013 9:44pm
chiz

Scott:The evidence of changed lives when people accept Christ? The testimonies of God’s goodness through answered prayer? I could introduce you personally to 50 people tomorrow morning who will testify to you about what God has done in their lives.

Show me any of these people and I will show you someone whose life has been changed by their belief in God. This distinction seems to elude many christians.
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February 23, 2013 9:45pm
Scott

Eszett, you bring up a whole different question. My challenge to Pete George and to you actually, is to listen to the testimonies of church goers to test his hypothesis that there is no physical evidence for God in the lives of believers. If you and Pete took the time to talk to believers you might be surprised to hear how much God has done in their lives.

Your question about evaluating the different religions is an interesting one. I would suggest that God, which is what most religions seek, has been uniquely revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. I can certainly testify what Jesus has done for me.
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February 23, 2013 9:45pm
Scott

Not sure of your point chiz?
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February 23, 2013 9:48pm
nasska

David G

But at least it’s not AGW, gay marriage or David Bain.

Give thanks for the small mercies that we receive. 🙂
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February 23, 2013 9:48pm
Reid

F-35 grounded.

It ain’t the F-15, is it.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/22/u-s-military-grounds-f-35-fighter-jets/?hpt=hp_t3

Combined with the issues in the F-22, I’m guessing these two fighters are the last we’ll see with human pilots and these two are going to have a relatively short service life, ten years tops.

No more Top Gun posters on the walls of the military brats.
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February 23, 2013 9:48pm
David Garrett

Nasska: Too true Sir, too true…those two topics – shall we call them collectively “the Scottish plays” ? – have just got to be the most pointless discussion points in modern New Zild history…
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February 23, 2013 9:52pm
Scott

David Garrett, well it is a big question and an important one. Like if it’s true then that would be the most important thing a person could keep know? Like these are important issues, what is the eternal destination of your soul? On your death bed I can promise you there will be no more important question for you than that.
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February 23, 2013 9:53pm
big bruv

“I can certainly testify what Jesus has done for me.”

Bollocks!

First of all you would have to prove that Jesus and God exist. Since that is impossible to do you cannot testify to anything.
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February 23, 2013 9:55pm
Nostalgia-NZ

The blues won and Scott made a promise about ‘on your death bed.’
Thank f… for rugby and sport.
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February 23, 2013 9:56pm
nasska

‘Mum, I want a bike for my birthday’ demanded Little Barry. He was a troublemaker at school and was constantly getting into trouble at home, at school and in the street. Barry’s mother asked him if he thought he deserved to get a bike for his birthday. Little Barry, of course, thought he did. Barry’s mother, being a Christian woman, wanted him to reflect on his behaviour over the last year, and write a letter to God, and tell him why he deserved a bike for his birthday.

LETTER 1:
Dear God,
I have been a very good boy this year and I would like a bike for my birthday. I want a red one.
Your friend, Barry.

Barry knew this wasn’t true. He had not been a very good boy this year, so he tore up the letter and started again.

LETTER 2:
Dear God,
This is your friend Barry. I have been a pretty good boy this year, and I would like a red bike for my birthday.
Thank you, Barry.

Barry knew this wasn’t true either. He tore up the letter and started again.

LETTER 3:
Dear God,
I have been an OK boy this year and I would really like a red bike for my birthday.
Your friend, Barry.

Barry knew he could not send this letter to God either. Barry was very upset. He went downstairs and told his mother he wanted to go to church. Barry’s mother thought her plan had worked because Barry looked very sad. ‘Just be home in time for dinner,’ his mother said. Barry walked down the street to the church and up to the altar. He looked around to see if anyone was there. He picked up a statue of the Virgin Mary. He slipped it under his shirt and ran out of the church, down the street, into his house, and up to his room. He shut the door to his room and sat down with a piece of paper and a pen.

Barry began to write his letter to God.

LETTER 4:
Dear God,
I’ve got your Mum. If you ever want to see her again, Send the Fucking Bike!!
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February 23, 2013 9:59pm
chiz

The point, Scott, is that Jesus hasn’t done anything for you, it’s your belief in Jesus that has done things.
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February 23, 2013 10:04pm
Johnboy

What a friend we have in Jesus,
All our sins and griefs to bear!
What a privilege to carry
Everything to God in prayer!
Oh, what peace we often forfeit,
Oh, what needless pain we bear,
All because we do not carry
Everything to God in prayer!
Have we trials and temptations?
Is there trouble anywhere?
We should never be discouraged—
Take it to the Lord in prayer.
Can we find a friend so faithful,
Who will all our sorrows share?
Jesus knows our every weakness;
Take it to the Lord in prayer.
Are we weak and heavy-laden,
Cumbered with a load of care?
Precious Savior, still our refuge—
Take it to the Lord in prayer.
Do thy friends despise, forsake thee?
Take it to the Lord in prayer!
In His arms He’ll take and shield thee,
Thou wilt find a solace there.
Blessed Savior, Thou hast promised
Thou wilt all our burdens bear;
May we ever, Lord, be bringing
All to Thee in earnest prayer.
Soon in glory bright, unclouded,
There will be no need for prayer—
Rapture, praise, and endless worship
Will be our sweet portion there.

🙂
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February 23, 2013 10:07pm
Harriet

PG – “…Why would God prove physically that he exists to an atheist professor when he never proves physically that he exists to fervent believers?…”

“…. William and Catherine Booth, the founders of the Salvation Army. Boy, talk about persecution, talk about the world hating you. They got it big time. Because they bravely proclaimed an undiluted gospel with Holy Ghost boldness, they were met with real hatred and opposition.

They experienced persecution as a regular part of their work, yet kept on going. Indeed, just as always has been the case, they experienced demonic rage and bloody persecution coming straight out of the pit of hell. How else does one explain such horrible vitriol, scurrilous abuse, and ugly hatred?

“Preaching on the streets was at times like preaching in hell. Teams of Salvationists faced ridicule, scorn, and hatred as they proclaimed the gospel in the degraded slums. Many of the poor and destitute were strongly atheistic, hating the name of God and fiercely opposing those who spoke of any form of religion.”

Consider a few snippets from one such volume (Trevor Yaxley, William & Catherine. Bethany House, 2003):

“The Booths’ message of total surrender and radical obedience to God attracted great criticism, especially in the early days. To many in the established churches, the call for no compromise, no holding anything back, no denying God in the small things, was too serious and too difficult to obtain.” (p. 121)

“William and his helpers soon got used to the disruptions caused by drunken roughs during their open-air meetings…. They did not always come away from their open-air work unharmed. Anything opponents could find was thrown their way, and often they hit the mark. On many evenings, William would trudge the eight miles to his Hammersmith home, arriving weary and battle-scarred, his clothes stained with blood or rotten fruit and his body bruised. This was the price they had to pay as they sought to save the worst of sinners – a price they never considered too high.” (p. 125)

“‘Make your will, pack your box, kiss your girl, be ready in a week.’ The general’s orders were clear. The level of commitment required of his workers was unmistakable – radical obedience was essential. Nothing more and certainly nothing less. Only godly go-ahead daredevils were equal to the call.” (p. 150)

Of course they got just as much flak from the comfortable, carnal and compromised church of the day as they did from the non-Christians. Both were hard to take:

“Just as they were willing to weather the storms of unfavorable public opinion, the early Salvationists were prepared to bear any cost to see salvation come to ordinary men and women like themselves. However, as the work of the Army expanded, the disruptions and attacks against them began to take on a more serious and sinister form. Their willingness to pay the price was regularly tested to the limit….

And just as in the book of Acts, whenever the preaching of the gospel affected any money-making schemes (see for example Acts 16:16-40; 19:23-41), all hell broke loose:

“By 1880 this holy Army was attracting severe opposition. Those who stood to lose the most from their success became their greatest enemies. Hotel and brothel owners faced falling profits as their previously thriving businesses began to suffer. The escalating conversion rate of many of their most loyal customers was plainly evident.” (pp. 177-178)

So these pub and brothel owners regularly recruited and organised violent gangs to assault and stop the Salvos from marching in the streets or holding their meetings. It was an all-out war, and there were many real casualties.

“Tragically greater injuries were also to follow. In Guildford that same year the wife of the corps officer was kicked to death. A fellow woman soldier was so severely beaten during the same parade that she also died some days later from the wounds she sustained. It is difficult to imagine this degree of persecution of Christians occurring in a ‘Christian’ nation such as Britain in the nineteenth century.

“In Whitechapel, East London, Salvation Army lasses were tied together with rope and pelted with live coals. It was not uncommon for parades heading for the evening meetings to be showered with tar and burning sulphur. ‘Blood and Fire’ became a reality for this army of God, unfortunately not only in the way originally foreseen.” (p. 183)

I still basically prefer the Christian West with all its faults over its competitors. But the church is always in need of revival.

Do you want to help us Pete……or do you prefer alcohol and prostitution ‘reform’ by government?

What’s that saying in NZ academia about child abuse -” The massed ranks of the welfare state hesitate” 😎
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February 23, 2013 10:09pm
nasska

Beautiful Johnboy…..just beautiful. 🙂
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February 23, 2013 10:11pm
Pete George

Scott – I said on the other thread, when I die I’ll go down. That’s due to the acccepted science of gravity. My ashes will return my remains to the soil. My thoughts and memories will have gone, my being will be no longer. Not hard to work all that out.

Where will you go?
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February 23, 2013 10:12pm
Johnboy

Harriet seems to me to be an appropriate name for a Salvation Army girl! 🙂
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February 23, 2013 10:12pm
Scott

Of course I can big bruv. I asked Jesus into my life and then my life began to change in amazing ways. So will yours too, all you have to do is ask.
Anyway must go. See you tomorrow morning at church 🙂
God bless everybody.
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February 23, 2013 10:13pm
Johnboy

Did you ever distribute the War Cry at the St. George Hotel in the late sixties Harriet?

If so I may have fallen in love with your stocking seams! 🙂
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February 23, 2013 10:15pm
nasska

Say a few for us while you’re on your knees anyway Scott. 🙂
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February 23, 2013 10:17pm
nasska

It was the bonnets that revved my engine JB. 🙂
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February 23, 2013 10:19pm
UglyTruth

First of all you would have to prove that Jesus and God exist. Since that is impossible to do you cannot testify to anything.

Levels of proof vary with the amount of prejudice of the individual asking for proof. A rational approach to proof is to apply the law of parsimony and ask for evidence such that the simplest explanation for the evidence is that the deity in question exists.
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February 23, 2013 10:19pm
Johnboy

The tightly cinched waist in those little jackets emphasising the expanse of the buttocks did it for me nasska! 🙂 🙂
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February 23, 2013 10:22pm
nasska

The collection box in one hand….the War Cry in the other as we took bets as to the colour of their underwear JB

Takes me back. 🙂
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February 23, 2013 10:24pm
Johnboy

Did you drink at the old St. George nasska. If so I probably know you? 🙂
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February 23, 2013 10:27pm
eszett

Scott (1,173) Says:
February 23rd, 2013 at 9:45 pm
Eszett, you bring up a whole different question. My challenge to Pete George and to you actually, is to listen to the testimonies of church goers to test his hypothesis that there is no physical evidence for God in the lives of believers. If you and Pete took the time to talk to believers you might be surprised to hear how much God has done in their lives.

lol, Scott, no, it’s not a different question, you are just trying to dodge to undeniable fact of the contradiction of your ludicrous claim.

Such testimony is NOT physical evidence of any god.

That testimony of people is always specific to a certain god that they happen to believe in. If they believe that their god did in fact intervene in their lives, it is not an unspecific, elusive deity, but a very personal, interventionist god.

If you accept testimony of christians that happen to believe in your particular version of christianity and Jesus as “evidence”, you have to accept it as well to all other religions and personal experiences.

However you will naturally reject that evidence and those religions and only accept those that suit you.

Of course, your personal experience and the evidence that you present is not evidence for anything else other than confirmation bias of your particular beliefs, the very same way that would apply to a Jew or a Muslim.

To paraphrase another saying, Scott, you are as much an atheist as I am, only difference is, I go one god further than you. When you understand why you reject all the other gods, you will understand why I reject yours as well.

Specifically when it comes to your silly statement that personal testimony is evidence for god.
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February 23, 2013 10:27pm
nasska

Nah…I only ever had two drinks in the St George, both while we were on pub crawls. There were about 43 pubs to cover…..as you might imagine we started with jugs & ended with ponies.

By the time we got to the St George we weren’t feeling any pain.
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February 23, 2013 10:32pm
Harriet

4 Johnboy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6omsDyFNlk
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February 23, 2013 10:34pm
Johnboy

If that’s the new Sallies uniform I’ll renounce sheep and become a missionary Harriet! 🙂
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February 23, 2013 10:37pm
bereal

Hey, big bruv,
hoped u enjoyed the game tonight baby.
Now do u see what i meant by how much a little discipline can change a team overnight.

A few haircuts
Get rid of those pigtails
Adios the affros and you have a team.

what sort of a loser was Pat Lam ?
Didn;t take much for us to come right.

By the way, what is Pat doing these days ?

Dime can tell you that the only reason a bloke has a pigtail is so his mate has something to
hang onto as he …… well you know.

Now we are on the right track again.
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February 23, 2013 10:48pm
Nostradamus

Scott:

I asked Jesus into my life and then my life began to change in amazing ways.

Can you give us three substantive examples of how Jesus caused your life to change in amazing ways?
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February 23, 2013 10:50pm
Reid

Why don’t those of you who ask for proof, read Matthew 13. You might learn something.

Notice I said “might.”
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February 23, 2013 11:02pm
SPC

Reid, there is no proof. But one can observe how the transition of a national cult into a world order cult was constructed. And as one would not attempt to supercede the status quo chosen of God religion, without a claim of authority to divide against the world anew, this was certainly demonstrated.

Any authoritarian order that claims God on high will not/cannot tolerate lack of obedient belief – thus the inbuilt conspiracy theory that is designed to demonise those who dare to question by suggesting they are working for their father the adversary/the slanderer (compare Mathew 13:38 with Mathew 23:9 – the disciples being told to use the term father for God alone).

If some politician tried this line you would be all over it, but done within the God religion tradition and you fawn on the one cloaked with the language of claim to power.
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February 24, 2013 1:35am
UglyTruth

SPC, The existence of deity per se is not the same as the existence of deity according to the description given by the Roman cult. Truth is the final authority against religion.
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February 24, 2013 3:47am
big bruv

bereal

What game?
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February 24, 2013 7:45am
krazykiwi

Wind farms will create more carbon dioxide, say scientists

Thousands of Britain’s wind turbines will create more greenhouse gases than they save, according to potentially devastating scientific research to be published later this year.

This is devastating news for the rabid greenies, and for the millions of people paying through the nose because of the wind power fallacy. Billions wasted.

No problem for the environment though. CO2 is an important trace gas, and there are plenty of benefits when nature makes more available.
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February 24, 2013 1:12pm
eszett

kk, did you actually bother read more than the headline? I sincerely doubt it.

The whole article and the study it refers to are about wind turbines only on non-degraded peatland.

Hardly the “devastating new” and “billions wasted”
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February 24, 2013 1:27pm
Scott

Nostradamus, 3 specific ways God has changed my life? Massive changes in behaviour for me, got convicted about partying, drinking and loose women and tightened up in all 3 areas. So now married for 25 years, father of 3 and leader of men. None of those things would have been possible for me before I met Jesus.
Interestingly enough I am now a marriage celebrant and will be marrying a couple, the groom who I knew back in university. He is aghast at the changes God’s made in me.
Previously I only cared about myself. Now I can genuinely say I try and help people and do the best for them. It’s hard to physically measure a change in the heart, but that is what has happened in my case.
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February 24, 2013 2:20pm
Scott

Eszett my dear old thing. Of course one has to take personal testimony into account. If I say Jesus has done this for me then that is evidence. In the same way at an atheist conference if a speaker says I used to believe in God but now I’m an atheist I feel so much freer, that is evidence that needs to be digested and taken into account.
In the same way someone may say that I was healed when I bathed in the Ganges river. There are many truth claims and lots of evidence. One needs to be able to assess these claims. If you have decided atheism is the truth well ok.
I believe in Jesus, although other religions may have some of the truth, we would insist on the uniqueness of Jesus as the way, the truth and the life. If you want to truly know God then Jesus is your man.
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February 24, 2013 2:32pm
UglyTruth

If I say Jesus has done this for me then that is evidence

Yes, it is evidence of your belief. What I think the skeptics want is evidence that can’t be explained so easily.
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February 24, 2013 3:12pm
wat dabney

“I can certainly testify what Jesus has done for me.”

The followers of every belief system in history can equally testify to the influence of their countless deities and demi-gods.

Put another way, you have just “proven” the existence of Thor, Odin, Ra, Perseus, Loki, etc, etc ad infinitum.
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February 24, 2013 3:51pm
Lance

Good grief
wat dabney is still banging on with his deep seated hatred of all things religious.

I recommend you don’t feed the troll.

He has no interest in any details, explanations or otherwise as demonstrated countless times. He has had his errors explained to him but then just carries on spouting forth those same errors. Sure there are points of difference but I see no evidence of a rational debate, just endless crude insults from wat.
wat needs his anger towards faith like a comfort blanket and he isn’t going to give it up for anyone.

Move on, nothing to see here.
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February 24, 2013 4:01pm
wat dabney

“banging on with his deep seated hatred of all things religious.”

By which you mean simply asking if there is any evidence for your claimed deity over and above that which exists for Apollo, Zeus, Pan or Poseidon for example. Or for the East Bunny for that matter.

A simply ‘no’, rather than this sputtering faux outrage would at least leave you with a bit of dignity.
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February 24, 2013 4:12pm
Scott

A changed life is evidence. The testimony of someone whose life has changed is evidence. As I said choosing between the truth claims of different religions is an issue. But again I haven’t proved the existence of Odin by saying I believe in Jesus. It’s not an all or nothing proposition? Either you believe in all religions or you believe in none?
As I said most religions are seeking God. We would say they may have part of the truth but the truth is found only in Christ, who is the way, the truth and the life.
Hopefully that’s clear?
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February 24, 2013 6:49pm

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