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January 18, 2013 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 18 January 2013

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General Debate

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Kea

George Bush Sr. New World Order Live Speech (1991)

hinamanu, Thanks for the history lesson. Obama is now POTUS and has been for some time. You may want to check what Obama has been up to. He has taken military action against most of the Muslim countries on the planet. (I wonder if he was ” interfered” with by a Muslim cleric during his time in Indonesia.) While your focusing on conspiracies, you are missing the obvious things right under your nose.

Just remember, Bush is NOT the president of the US.
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January 18, 2013 3:28pm
Pete George

The latest Roy Morgan poll (last poll mid December):

National Party at 46% (up 0.5%)
Maori Party 2% (up 0.5%)
ACT NZ 0.5% (down 0.5%)
United Future 0.5% (up 0.5%).

Labour is 31.5% (down 2%)
Greens are 12% (up 1%)
New Zealand First 5% (unchanged)
Mana Party 0.5% (down 0.5%)

Conservative Party of NZ 1.5% (up 0.5%)
Others 0.5% (unchanged).
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January 18, 2013 3:30pm
Kea

PG, good news to hear that only 2.5% of Kiwis are racist. It is more troubling to learn 12% are communists. Overall we can see Kiwis are left of center, but not too far.
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January 18, 2013 3:34pm
Azeraph

Kea (1,710) Says:

I agree.
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January 18, 2013 3:36pm
Kea

Azeraph, agree with what mate? I have stuck my oar in on a number of topics.
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January 18, 2013 3:40pm
RightNow

Azeraph – on Kiwiblog the number in brackets by someone’s name increments every time they comment -i.e it’s their total comments made on this blog.
What makes that difficult as a reference to a particular comment is that the number is replicated across every comment they made (you’ll see that if you refresh the page). This is a function of the way wordpress displays the comments section.
So when you cite their comment it’s much better if you include the time-stamp.
Just FYI 🙂
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January 18, 2013 3:43pm
Azeraph

Kea (1,710) Says:

EDIT I agree on the Muslim issues.
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January 18, 2013 3:45pm
Azeraph

RightNow (4,837) Says:

Thanks i saw this before you posted and was correcting when your post came up, Thanks. I get lazy sometimes.
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January 18, 2013 3:47pm
Kea

RightNow, I only just paid attention to the number of comments I have made in such a short time. I am surprised I am that opinionated.

Feel free to take cheap shots lefties 😉
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January 18, 2013 3:47pm
Pete George

good news to hear that only 2.5% of Kiwis are racist

The poll doesn’t ask for whether you are rascist or not. I doubt that any of the racists that comment here would be included in that 2.5% you are referring to, and there will be rascists elsewhere as well, even amongst the other 97.5%.

It is more troubling to learn 12% are communists.

Communistness is not polled either. All people polled would be likely to have some degree of socialist acceptance.
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January 18, 2013 3:53pm
Manolo

How different would Australia be? Is she right?
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/no-states-if-we-started-again-pm/story-e6frfku9-1226556372028
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January 18, 2013 3:53pm
RightNow

I think my tally is over about 5-6 years Kea. I reckon Pete George is the most prolific commenter, he’s notched up 15k+ comments in much less time than I’ve been on KB. Griff’s got to 4k+ in about a year.
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January 18, 2013 3:56pm
Kea

Azeraph, Many Muslim folk hold the US in a higher regard than I do. I find myself trying to temper their overly romantic view.

The Muslim folk who have had their family killed and towns and houses destroyed by the US, have to pick a side. We are polarizing Islam against us. It breaks my heart.

I fully understand where the anti Muslim folk are coming from too and share their concerns re Muslims in the West. ( As do many Muslims.) But many on KB are simply a reflection of how effective anti US propaganda is.

Hard working debt laden Western people should not be sponsoring this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83VgEnfLzJc
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January 18, 2013 3:58pm
Kea

Griff’s got to 4k+ in about a year.

Griff has admitted to taking performance enhancing drugs 😉

[results vary]
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January 18, 2013 4:00pm
Pete George

There’s been an unsurprising amount of consternation shown at TS re the Roy Morgan poll. That will fuel an interesting leadup to Labour’s February caucus leadership vote.

http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-18012013/#comment-575216
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January 18, 2013 4:06pm
Manolo

P.G.’s addiction to TsS is amazing and reminds me of 50 shades of grey.
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January 18, 2013 4:09pm
Pete George

I reckon Pete George is the most prolific commenter, he’s notched up 15k+ comments in much less time than I’ve been on KB.

I have been at times, and probably have the highest total. Redbaiter used to keep ahead of me until he had his hissy fit and vowed never to return, and since he returned he has been only sporadic.

My comment rate has scaled down somewhat now, I doubt if I have been the most prolific for quite a while on say a monthly basis.

Azeraph (slightly related) when quoting someone the comment counter isn’t very useful because every time you comment your count changes on your comments right through the threads.

It’s best to quote the name and comment time – I select and copy the whole comment header, then past and delete everything between the name and time.

Or right click the time, Copy, then Paste the link as your reference.
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January 18, 2013 4:13pm
Kea

How different would Australia be? Is she right?

Manolo, Yes it would be different. It is unsurprising to hear she would like total control. She is cut from the same cloth as the hideous Clark.
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January 18, 2013 4:21pm
Kea

Redbaiter used to keep ahead of me until he had his hissy fit and vowed never to return…

By saying that Red was behaving like a lefty. You will notice that the ONLY people on KB who use RIP are lefties. The free exchange of ideas offends lefties, far more than those on the right.
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January 18, 2013 4:27pm
nasska

Kea

….”Islam is not the enemy of the West. Most Muslim people are ok folk”….

Crap! Islamic teachings & Western practice are polar opposites. This is okay so long as the goat molesters stay in the ME & blow each other up as is their wont. Regrettably they do not stay in their own shitholes but instead move into secular societies & rather than go with the flow as any sane group of immigrants, they cluster & start bitching about Western values while demanding Sharia law & the rest of the shit.

Simple question…..what goes bing instead of bong in their religion addled minds?
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January 18, 2013 4:28pm
Manolo

You will notice that the ONLY people on KB who use RIP are lefties.

Not true. I’m no lefty, but RIP was the only solution where the prolific offender Ure was around.
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January 18, 2013 4:31pm
Kea

Crap! Islamic teachings & Western practice are polar opposites

Yes, in many ways they are. That was not my point. Read my posts again and look for another meaning.

I was defending our Western values at home, but also saying we should not be forcing those values on other countries.

(The US is NOT a secular society. They are the biggest church goers in the world. Us kiwis are one the lowest.)
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January 18, 2013 4:34pm
Kea

Not true. I’m no lefty, but RIP was the only solution where the prolific offender Ure was around

Manolo, seems I can not do anything right today 😉

I deliberately do not try and cover my arse by qualifying my comments with built in cop-outs. If I did that I would be like mm, Pg, and other boring lefties with nothing of substance to contribute.
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January 18, 2013 4:38pm
nasska

Kea

I’ll go along with you that we should get the hell out of the ME & let them live like stoneagers as they seem to prefer. I also take your point that the religious right in America are not much less insane.

My bitch is about the scum who emigrate to Western countries without the slightest intention of fitting in or assimilating gradually into another culture. Our Western values & way of life are threatened by the efforts of our spineless leaders who know of nothing except appeasing the savages.
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January 18, 2013 4:41pm
Kea

My bitch is about the scum who emigrate to Western countries without the slightest intention of fitting in or assimilating gradually into another culture.

nasska, that is my bitch too.

They can still be Muslim, build Mosques, pray five times a day… I do not care. What annoys me is when they want us to deffer to their ways. Like my dear old Dad said, “When in Rome do as the Romans do”. Now days PC has replaced genuine tolerance and respect for others. Socialism has replaced egalitarianism.
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January 18, 2013 4:47pm
Manolo

I’m with you, Kea. It’s better to be direct when expressing an opinion, instead of using weasel words or straddling the fence.

I disagree with you (and share nasska’s view) on Islam as utterly incompatible with science, peace and the modern world, since it wants us all subservient to a 7th century paedophile and his strange beliefs.

A good analysis of why the Islamic world has been left behind after a golden age can be found in the excellent book Civilization (written by Niall Ferguson in 2011).
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January 18, 2013 4:48pm
Kea

Manolo, you say you disagree, but then go on to say things I agree with to support your point. You do know I am an atheist ? Most Muslims I have met accept Christians, but can not get their head around us atheists. They look upon me with pity, like a retarded puppy 🙂
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January 18, 2013 4:52pm
nasska

This should keep me offside with all the nutters.

Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/oi2r968nt8rucx3/Religion%201.jpg
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January 18, 2013 5:17pm
Kea

nasska, profound cartoon 😉
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January 18, 2013 5:25pm
Azeraph

Kea (1,722) Says:
January 18th, 2013 at 4:52 pm

We are a secular society. That’s a strange reaction from a muslim as atheism has been around just as long as religion has, it’s even written in the bible. It’s just never been organized until now or the last 70 years?

Bugger the anglican church if it held sway over us.
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January 18, 2013 5:31pm
Kea

Azeraph, well its not so strange when you come from a place where atheism is against the law !
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January 18, 2013 5:41pm
Rodders

New Zealand First 5%

Urgh!
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January 18, 2013 5:46pm
chiz

Azeraph:Charlattan or ?

Don’t have time to watch the talk but it sounds though he is talking about the assortative mating theory, with nerds more likely to marry nerds, and have autistic children as a result. If so, he’s not a charlatan, just leaping to conclusions. There is some evidence to back up assortative mating, but its ambiguous and admits other interpretations. In any case, something like half of all cases of autism are due to de novo mutations, mutations which weren’t actually present in either parent. This doesn’t fit with assortative mating.
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January 18, 2013 5:50pm
bereal

Most would now agree that muslim immigration into western societies inevitably leads to problems which
grow relative to their numbers.

Unlike any other type of immigrant they do not integrate, they reach a certain mass and, rather
than adopting the values of the host society they begin demanding the host change to adopt their values.

Even with only 1% of our population muslim we have already seen their call for a Sharia banking system
to be established here.
This call will eventually turn into a demand.
One day it will be Sharia law.

Multiculturalism is now generally recognised as a failed concept.

Given the above, why would we continue to import muslims ?

Can any correspondent list any perceived advantages to New Zealand in muslim immigration ?

Can any point to any western society that has gained a benefit from importing muslims ?

Three simple questions.
Anyone care to submit a reply.
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January 18, 2013 5:50pm
Azeraph

Kea (1,724) Says:
January 18th, 2013 at 5:41 pm

Ah! I see. Poor buggers.
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January 18, 2013 5:59pm
nasska

bereal

It is generally acknowledged that the British Labour Party encouraged Muslim immigration as a means of upsetting the status quo in the UK. If this was their intention then it paid off in spades. As to NZ:

1) Why…..probably because the wankers who misgovern us are so worried that we’re one of the few countries not overpopulated that we have to import no hopers to keep the slums growing.

2) Advantages…..Pass, unless an authentic kebab floats your boat.

3) Benefits…..tough one that. Maybethe nostalgia we feel for the days when women & girls could walk unmolested in the Hutt Valley.
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January 18, 2013 6:00pm
Azeraph

chiz (876) Says:
January 18th, 2013 at 5:50 pm

Interesting. Plz post further on this subject when you come back on Chiz.
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January 18, 2013 6:02pm
Pete George

Atheism must substantially pre-date theism. We can be certain that early humans would have been atheists and at some stage in history theist beliefs would have evolved.

Everyone is born an atheist. Some are convinced to switch to theism at some stage of their lives.
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January 18, 2013 6:10pm
nasska

PG

Everyone may be born an atheist but if you have the misfortune to be born into a religious family you would never stand a chance…..the brain washing starts early & never lets up.
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January 18, 2013 6:17pm
graham

nasska: Not true. My family is Christian, but my children actually think for themselves (shock! horror!). My step-daughter, at this stage of her life, has chosen not to follow Christianity. That’s her decision.
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January 18, 2013 6:25pm
Pete George

Some religious families are likely to put a lot of pressure on children to follow suit, but I know that others do give their kids a reasonable chance to make up their own minds. I’ve heard from some that got a lot more pressure from (religious) school to follow specific religious beliefs. It can be interesting listening to a bunch of ex Catholics – and most experiences talked about are from school and church.
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January 18, 2013 6:30pm
thedavincimode

nasska/Kea

You are wasting your time reflecting on jurisdictional boundaries. There are no jurisdictional boundaries in Islam (or certainly at the hard end of Islam). There is only Islam, albeit in a variety of flavours, and in that respect, Islam is no different from the Chruch of 600+ years ago. “When in Rome” is an unknown paradigm.
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January 18, 2013 6:30pm
nasska

graham

Good on you….now if she does return to your church her faith will mean something.
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January 18, 2013 6:32pm
bhudson

The latest Roy Morgan poll…
Labour is 31.5% (down 2%)

Down 2%? Cunliffe will be rushing down to BP to refill the LPG bottle for the BBQ
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January 18, 2013 6:33pm
nasska

On a theoretical level you’re correct DaVinci…..in practice geographical & social boundaries normally contain the lunacy. It’s at the edges where the drama normally occurs.
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January 18, 2013 6:35pm
Fletch

Atheism must substantially pre-date theism. We can be certain that early humans would have been atheists and at some stage in history theist beliefs would have evolved.

Everyone is born an atheist. Some are convinced to switch to theism at some stage of their lives.

As I’ve pointed out in the past, if you’re an Atheist, you’re in a minority.

According to the CIA website, there are approx 7 billion people in the world –

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html
(Click on the [+] People and Society link)

According to the same site, 88.54% (6.2 billion) are religious in some way – Christian 33.35% (of which Roman Catholic 16.83%, Protestant 6.08%, Orthodox 4.03%, Anglican 1.26%), Muslim 22.43%, Hindu 13.78%, Buddhist 7.13%, Sikh 0.36%, Jewish 0.21%, Baha’i 0.11%, other religions 11.17%.

Only 9.42% are non-religious and 2.04% are atheist.
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January 18, 2013 6:43pm
graham

And the reverse can be true, PG. Some non-religious families can be very hard on any of their members who choose to follow a faith, and make life uncomfortable for them.
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January 18, 2013 6:44pm
hinamanu

Breaking news! Attorney Orly Taitz filed a petition with the US Congress for an immediate investigation of Barack Obama due to his use of forged IDs and a fraudulently obtained CT SSN. Over 4,000 people signed it in one day. Demand that our corrupt and bought and paid for puppet media report on it!! Obama regime is desperate and ripped off WeThePeople@WhiteHouse.gov a second REDACTED petition for Obama to resign due to his use of forged IDs and a stolen CT SSN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlkozMlSo7k
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January 18, 2013 6:50pm
Reid

On a theoretical level you’re correct DaVinci…..in practice geographical & social boundaries normally contain the lunacy. It’s at the edges where the drama normally occurs.

Depends on whether you think the majority are correct nasska. Recall it is the majority that think for example MMP is a good system. Also recall this very same majority took simply ages, like at least three elections, nine years, to get their simple child-like heads around the fact that under MMP, you get two votes and not just the one, like you used to.

These are also the very same people who really do believe that if they watch the 6 o’clock news, they’re thereby “informed.”

Etc, etc, etc.

If you want to associate yourself with people like that, crikey.

🙂
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January 18, 2013 6:51pm
nasska

Reid

We are still singing from the same song sheet….the majority may rule in most instances be they political or theological. The fact that they prevail is due to numbers, not intelligence nor conviction.
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January 18, 2013 6:56pm
Reid

Multiculturalism is now generally recognised as a failed concept.

It’s part of the plan to destroy national identity bereal, nothing more and nothing less. You make an error by focusing exclusively on a particular aspect of a much wider picture. Interesting this phenomena is exclusively occurring in western societies who adhere to the almost archaic phrase, Judeo-Christian ethic, isn’t it. I mean you don’t hear much of it happening in say, India or China, do you. Ever wonder why that might be?

The fact that they prevail is due to numbers, not intelligence nor conviction.

Yes I know. That’s the issue, it’s not a virtue. Majority rule only works well if the majority are educated. Our majorities aren’t, in most important ways.
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January 18, 2013 7:02pm
Pete George

Multiculturalism is now generally recognised as a failed concept.

So what do we do in New Zealand then? Force everyone to comply within single cultural confines?
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January 18, 2013 7:07pm
hinamanu

“Unemployment and dependency is actually to a degree what most capitalist economies depend up to provide that lovely pliable,needy workforce…somehow though NZ has allowed familial unemployment to bloom and thus tipped the scales away from the capitalist model….poor capitalist. I feel for young people because they are fearful,dependent and lacking the foresight to make choices to move upward.”

Quote i found on Facebook and what the middle and business class will never admit.

although corporatism is to blame not capitalism which the socialists purposely or ignorantly can’t perceive
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January 18, 2013 7:07pm
Reid

So what do we do in New Zealand then? Force everyone to comply within single cultural confines?

Pete what is a “single cultural confine?”
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January 18, 2013 7:17pm
Pete George

Reid – monoculture n. 2. A single, homogeneous culture without diversity or dissension.

Sounds like what some here want – as long as it’s their single, homogeneous culture without diversity or dissension.
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January 18, 2013 7:20pm
Pete George

It’s good to have an exciting successful team to support. Looking forward to the T20 final on Sunday, have ticket. Well done Wellington who deserve to contest the top prize with Otago.
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January 18, 2013 7:23pm
Azeraph

Which means we must be multicultural then?
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January 18, 2013 7:25pm
Andrei

Which means we must be multicultural then?

Yep lots of dissension, which apparently is a jolly good thing

The real point of “multiculturalism” of course is to undermine the dominant culture so that it can be replaced with brave new one the secularists have in mind

What Pol Pot tried to do but by stealth
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January 18, 2013 7:33pm
Pete George

What is “the dominant culture”?

Is it a good thing for “the dominant culture” to dominate?
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January 18, 2013 7:36pm
nasska

While staying in South Auckland recently a bloke chatted up a bird at a local bar & soon they found themselves back in his motel room.

Immediately, he started rubbing his hands all over her body.

“Ooh,” she giggled, “seems like we’re having it rough tonight.”

“No,” he replied, “I’m just making sure you’re not hiding any weapons.”
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January 18, 2013 8:00pm
Steve (North Shore)

Hone Harawera was going to court to ban the word “blacklisted”.

The judge said to him: “please state your case.”

He said, “This racist word is demoralising for the maoris of this country!

Why put people on a list just because they’re maori, why not put pakeha on a

list also?”.

The judge answered him: “They are on a list, they are called “Tax payers”!
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January 18, 2013 8:00pm
Azeraph

Andrei (1,642) Says:
January 18th, 2013 at 7:33 pm

Look at the states, regardless of what people think they are a multicultural mash of peoples and good for them and in our own way we are too but the only way our countries will survive is if we stay secular, Christianity was never meant to be a part of government.
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January 18, 2013 8:08pm
nasska

Azeraph

Make sure you include the rest of the religious groups along with the Christians. They’re a big enough pain in the neck but others are worse.
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January 18, 2013 8:14pm
Azeraph

nasska (5,487) Says:
January 18th, 2013 at 8:14 pm

What other religions? Islam?

I have Christian beliefs but i’m just like a lot of people here, not a follower. Though i personally think the Jehovah’s Witnesses come close to being what it was meant to be. Separate from governance.
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January 18, 2013 8:26pm
mikenmild

Most religions aspire to be a part, if not the whole, of government.
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January 18, 2013 8:28pm
nasska

Azeraph

Islam certainly & practically only they & the Xtians are likely to have the numbers to attempt to sway a government’s thinking.

But there is no shortage of boutique groups of religious nutters who would love to dictate our thoughts & actions. There is also no end of venal political parties who would cater to their demands in exchange for their votes.
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January 18, 2013 8:33pm
Longknives

Cool.

http://thechive.com/2013/01/17/great-and-important-historical-photographs-23-photos/
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January 18, 2013 8:55pm
nasska

Longknives

Thanks for the link…..photos like those make history come alive.
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January 18, 2013 9:04pm
Andrei

The little echo chamber of secularism – hey ho, you don’t even realize how badly you have been sucked in by those who would lord it over you

FWIW – probably way too subtle for you people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZFfvtIjSJE
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January 18, 2013 9:07pm
Pete George

A joke from somewhere that is best left nameless (I think the first comment was serious):

Afewknowthetruth

You need to learn the read properly, Gormless.
By 2015: breakdown of current economic arrangements.
By 2020: most things people currently take for granted become unavailable.
By 2025: complete collapse of the industrial system.
By 2060: the Earth become largely uninhabitable for humans. (Could be as early as 2035).

ropata

2012 Quetzalcoatl
2013 Flying Saucers
2014 Antichrist takes over
2015 Jesus shows up to smite everyone (except Israel)
2016 Cthulhu??
2017 Morgoth??
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January 18, 2013 9:17pm
Azeraph

nasska (5,489) Says:
January 18th, 2013 at 8:33 pm

You got the numbers that are not based on baby baptism? Have you looked at the malls on Sunday’s and the local churches here?

I don’t know about you but i don’t see the conservative party gaining a lot of attention.
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January 18, 2013 9:19pm
nasska

Azeraph

I don’t think we could even try to have a stab at the numbers. Fortunately the census is not far off but it is my bet that the results will be an eye opener.
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January 18, 2013 9:24pm
Azeraph

nasska (5,490) Says:
January 18th, 2013 at 9:24 pm

I can only agree but i like to rely on my eye’s and the up and coming generations have their own ideas, too bad that group in the states are trying to redefine prayer from a deity to the universe. Strange people, in the end it looks like they want to adopt the structure of the church system but change it with american atheist views.
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January 18, 2013 9:46pm
bereal

Just checking in to see if there were any takers prepared to attempt to answer any of the three
questions i posed @ 5.50 today regarding muslim immigration to New Zealand.

Well done nasska you appear to be the only one prepared to have a crack.

Pity there were no handwringing apologist muslim lovers to step up to the plate, i was hoping
for a good argument.
i guess that means that when the insanity of importing muslims is couched in such simple terms
it’s patently indefensible.

Oh well, i might try again another day.

Must run now, don’t want to miss Kath and Kim.
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January 18, 2013 11:11pm
axeman

Climate Science “A Fairy Tale That’s Rich In Fantasy…Spook Watching”

Awww what a shame GRIEF is away from his desk for a while (and for a change!). He would be really interested in German meteorologist Dr. Wolfgang Thüne ‘s harsh criticism at alarmist science.

http://notrickszone.com/2013/01/17/veteran-german-meteorologist-calls-climate-science-a-fairy-tale-thats-rich-in-fantasy-spook-watching/
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January 18, 2013 11:40pm
SPC

bereal, no western society has an immigration policy for Moslems only. They have immigration policies – are they better off for having them? And if so, not applying religious discrimination in the ranking of immigrants?
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January 18, 2013 11:52pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi

How about that Sydney Big Day Out? Auckland looking forward to its turn, oh wait 😀
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January 19, 2013 3:35am

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