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November 8, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 8th November 2012

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General Debate

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Pete George

The Dom Post editorial today backs the Electoral Commission recommendations on MMP – which would take us backwards. They say…

However, the shape of the electoral system should not be determined by politicians’ interests, but by what is in the interests of the public.

But then they promote what would suit large parties at the expense of voters who might vote for smaller parties.

There are claims that small parties reduce Government stability. There is no evidence of this. Multiple small parties can enhance stability as they give the major Government party (and large opposition parties) more options to get a majority.

The original recommendation for MMP was a 4% threshold plus the electorate seat waiver. The threshold was instead put up to 5% (by large parties).

Since then there has been no evidence of instability caused by sub 5% parties. Small parties have contributed responsibly.

If a change is made to 4% threshold and no electorate seat waiver we will make our MMP less representative and less proportional than the original very cautious recommendations.

That is bad democracy that favours larger parties.

If MPs supported having the most representative democratic system they would override the conservativism of the Electoral Commission and reduce the threshold further, or remove it altogether.

They would move MMP forwards, not take it backwards.

Dominion Post editorial biased towards larger parties on MMP
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November 8, 2012 8:05am
david

That was a really “GAY” blue shirt you were wearing on TV last night DPF.

What is it with Blue being the Democrat’s colour scheme and commenters wearing their politics literally on their sleeves?
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November 8, 2012 8:09am
Elaycee

Morrinsville Policeman is convicted stealing money from a wallet handed in by a member of the public.

And yet his lawyer asked for permanent name suppression and a discharge without conviction! Thank heavens the Hamilton based Judge decided otherwise. This thief should have considered the consequences before he stole the $200.

Now his career is over.

Unlucky.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7920800/Police-career-over-for-officer-who-stole-cash
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November 8, 2012 8:13am
bhudson

Pete,

Wouldn’t it be appropriate to preface your comments on electoral reform – particularly around the threshold – with a disclaimer as to your electoral history and personal interests?
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November 8, 2012 8:16am
Chuck Bird

“Morrinsville Policeman is convicted stealing money from a wallet handed in by a member of the public.”

I note he got no penalty and uses the weak excuse he had financial problems. His wife is a school teacher. Their combined salary would not be that bad.
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November 8, 2012 8:23am
Elaycee

Pete George:

There are claims that small parties reduce Government stability. There is no evidence of this.

You have a short memory…

You must have forgotten the farce we suffered when the venal Peters played National off against Labour (and vice versa) for several weeks after the 1996 election. Each night on TV, we had to endure him telling the Nation over and over how he was going to decide who would Govern. Finally he opted to run with National and his ‘reward’ was the title of Deputy Prime Minister and Treasurer. It was a case of the flea on the tail that was wagging both dogs.

We should never forget it because we should never put ourselves in a position of an action replay.

So yes, we have had a case of a small party causing instability. And the problem is, the same flea (and the same tail) is still wagging in the background.
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November 8, 2012 8:25am
Griff

!00% right PG
The numbtys that back a higher threshold are intent on entrenching their views at the cost of others democratic right to representation .
The scary result of the USA two-party system only reinforces the benefits of our MMP electoral system. Eventually the rest of the right will wake up to the depth of representation available under MMP and move away from the all-encompassing satisfying few national party
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November 8, 2012 8:27am
Pete George

bhudson – why? In fact my main peersonal interest is and always has been better democracy.

Obviously you are referencing my connections with United Future – this has nothing to do with UF. What I’m saying is different to what UF proposed in the MMP review. The UF situation in the last term, in the current term, and in the forseeable future unless there’s dramatic change, it is totally reliant on an electorate seat that will not be affected by any of this.

I’m promoting the best possible representative democracy. Have you got any argument against that?
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November 8, 2012 8:51am
Kevin

Auckland City comrads manifesto. Highly amusing and emetic at the same time.
http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/EN/AboutCouncil/HaveYourSay/Pages/thrivingcommunities.aspx
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November 8, 2012 8:51am
Pete George

So yes, we have had a case of a small party causing instability.

Elaycee, so no, you are wrong. You are missing two key facts.

1996 was at the very beginning of MMP. It is now sixteen years later, with much more experience and history of MMP, and there have been no repeats of that.

In 1996 NZ First got 13% of the vote, they were a medium sized party way outside the current considerations. Are you suggesting a 15% threshold to avoid a repeat of something that happened sixteen years ago?
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November 8, 2012 8:56am
Paulus

God Bless America – the nation is divided more than ever.
Well done the Democratic Party – they did well to win.
BUT how will Obama go forward – at least he does not have to worry about re-election – he has a deficit almost equal to the US GDP – he must stop spending and printing money liberally now he is elected.
Overseas the Arab world will rejoice as they see a weak President. Europe could not really care less. China is in the poop as we will soon see.
Socialism will still raise it’s head and the poor will get poorer and the rich will find ways around tax increases. Unemployment is actually way above the official figures as illegals and other minorities do not register in the figures.
The US will stagnate slowly as nothing will be agreed by the Republican Congress.
Not a happy political and economic world.
The spin off in New Zealand will see a Green/Labour coalition controlled by Winston. Possibly with Russel Norman as PM.
To get power Labour et al will have to acceed to Greenpeace New Zealand Branch’s requirements.
As the world stagnates sadly so will we as we will have no need for Mining Inspectors as mining will be stopped.
Nothing will be allowed to go ahead as farming will be curtailed and allowed to go bust slowly.
Not a pretty sight – so God Defend New Zealand too.
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November 8, 2012 8:56am
peterwn

Elaycee – A similar thing happened in thr 1960’s in Papakura. Someone handed in 30 pounds he found and the duty cop locked it in the station safe. Another cop found it there when on duty and took it – he was badly in debt. He got three months jail – there were no ‘community’ sentencing options then. The cop in this case should have got a decent time consuming ‘community’ sentence.
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November 8, 2012 9:00am
Pete George

We should never forget it because we should never put ourselves in a position of an action replay.

That rules out ever going back to FPP, we should never put ourselves in the position of an action replay of a Muldoon government, or a Lange/Douglas government.

The way some talk here we should never allow us to go back to a position of an action replay of a Clark government. Does that mean a 40% threshold?

The fundamental of democracy is letting people decide. That means letting them decide whether they want large or small or medium sized parties.

And it means not letting large party supporters trying to squash any alternatives because they want single party government – and the way some talk, they want single party parliament, as long as it’s their party.
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November 8, 2012 9:02am
Griff

The spin off in New Zealand will see a Green/Labour coalition controlled by Winston. Possibly with Russel Norman as PM.

Point to me were peters has supported the greens and socialism. It will be a minority national government with peters swapping the trappings of power not power for support on confidence and supply. Whinny for all his failings will not sleep with the watermelons or manaless .
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November 8, 2012 9:12am
Reid

Hone says he’s going to use his court case to make a political point.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10845816

So this should be interesting. Let’s hope he gets imprisoned for contempt. That’ll give him some publicity.
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November 8, 2012 9:42am
bhudson

I’m promoting the best possible representative democracy. Have you got any argument against that?

No Pete, you are promoting your view on a better possible representative democracy. Not an indisputable fact.

All the more reason you should publish a disclaimer given that you would be personally advantaged by something you claim to be an unequivocally best position.
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November 8, 2012 9:47am
Pete George

All the more reason you should publish a disclaimer given that you would be personally advantaged by something you claim to be an unequivocally best position.

a) I don’t see how I would be personally advantaged, except like everyone else by having a more representative democracy.

b) I see you are not disputing it, just targetting me.

c) Why should any view on a blog be accompanied by a disclaimer? I’ve been asked questions, I’ve responded.

d) I haven’t seen you publish a disclaimer. Why not, if you insist I should?
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November 8, 2012 9:54am
Manolo

I’m promoting the best possible representative democracy.

It suffice to say I’m a known promoter of communism. The absolute truth.
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November 8, 2012 9:57am
bhudson

I haven’t seen you publish a disclaimer. Why not, if you insist I should?

Pete, I have not commented on the electoral provisions. And I see no need to do so.
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November 8, 2012 9:59am
Jack5

Maori are upping the pressure to be given ownership of wireless spectrum being freed up by the move to digital TV.

People of all shades should get behind Minister Adams on this claim, I reckon. It’s as blatant as claiming ownership of oxygen or wind or sunshine or rain.

If the Waitangi Tribunal was open to claims by non-Maori, some wits might put in counter-claims for compensation for the supply of written language, of literacy, of a legal system, of Western culture popular and academic, of rugby and other sport, of horses and cattle and sheep, of motor vehicles and planes, or roads and railways, of the wheel, of realistic medicine, and even of beer and wine. And of course of radio, TV, and the internet, which use the spectrum in contention.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/7917089/Maori-seek-urgent-spectrum-hearing
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November 8, 2012 10:01am
Griff

After 15139 posts you don’t need to justify your position. As he post under his own name any one exploring PG’s statements can Google who he is and access his own website.

Asking PG to add a disclaimer is just personal attack rather than defending a position.

Why is reducing the threshold bad and how does increasing the threshold make representation better?
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November 8, 2012 10:02am
Pete George

Disclaimer: Unless quoting and/or attributing everything I say on Kiwiblog is my own opinion posted freely under my own identity. My commenting and blogging is independent of anyone else or any group, organisation or party. I sometimes quote politicians and include different party’s information when I think it’s relevant to what I want to say. That in no way should be taken as being under instruction or direction from any other person or party.

I don’t intend adding this disclaimer to each of my comments.
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November 8, 2012 10:05am
bhudson

Griff @ 10:02am

Asking PG to add a disclaimer is just personal attack rather than defending a position.

Griff @ 8:27am

The numbtys that back a higher threshold are intent on entrenching their views at the cost of others democratic right to representation .

I’m not expressing a view on electoral reform, but that is just too richly ironic to let slide…
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November 8, 2012 10:08am
Elaycee

@Pete George: I think you need to drag yourself into the present day…. the electorate has already voted and there will be no return to FPP any time soon.

Whilst I respect you have a party position to uphold, the reality is that the electorate should not (IMO) be subjected to small parties with ‘non-negotiable, bottom line’ policy positions. That is a classic ‘tail wagging the dog’ scenario.

For example, why should a party who has won a single electorate seat and has 4.5% of the electorate vote, be able to decide who forms the next Parliament? And if they play one major party against the other during the ‘negotiation phase’ (as has happened in the past), why should they declare a ‘bottom line, non-negotiable’ policy at a time when 95.5% of the electorate actually didn’t vote for them / their policies?

Because they shouldn’t.
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November 8, 2012 10:25am
Pete George

bhudson – maybe you could clarify what subjects you think should have disclaimers, and who should have to post disclaimers.

If I commented anonymously would that exempt me from the need for a disclaimer? Or should anonymous commenters have to post disclaimers too?
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November 8, 2012 10:28am
Pete George

Elaycee:

Whilst I respect you have a party position to uphold…

Read what I’ve said. I’m commenting on MMP independent of any party interests. No party currently shares my position.

Disclaimer: I have learnt from and share similar views on MMP with a number of political commentators (for example Graeme Edgeler).

the reality is that the electorate should not (IMO) be subjected to small parties with ‘non-negotiable, bottom line’ policy positions. That is a classic ‘tail wagging the dog’ scenario.

That is classic unsubstantiated nonsense. How often has that happened over the past sixteen years? And irrelevant to what I’ve said.

And if they play one major party against the other during the ‘negotiation phase’ (as has happened in the past)

As I’ve already pointed out, the party that did that had 13% support – and you didn’t say if you thought the threshold should be 15% to prevent that happening again.

Why shouldn’t all people, whether they want to vote for small, medium or small parties, have an equal chance of being representated by the party of their choice?
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November 8, 2012 10:35am
Manolo

A rapist (and coward) speaks: http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8560988/obama-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-assange
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November 8, 2012 10:35am
Reid

Yedioth Ahronoth, a leading Israeli newspaper, reported Wednesday that Netanyahu had ordered his cabinet not to speak publicly about Obama’s win. That came after Danny Danon, the deputy speaker of the Israeli Knesset, said, “Israel will not bow down to Obama. We have no one to rely on but ourselves.”

One report I just read said that with the elections coming up in Israel and his popularity, Netanyahu needs a war and if he can’t have one with Iran he’ll say that the US has turned unfriendly and do it that way. It’s all about perception management in politics, isn’t it. Reality and the quaint old “right thing” don’t seem to matter anymore. If only people weren’t so gullible, as the Israeli’s will be if they fall for this and they will if he tries it, if the media plays the right side of the message.

If Netanyahu does try this and who knows if he will but if he does, it will be remarkably interesting to see the whole dynamic play out in the US, what with their corporate media’s hair-trigger response to any and all things “anti-semitic” and their immensely powerful AIPAC lobby (rated #2 most powerful lobby behind AARP in a survey I linked to the other day).

As I’ve said before, I personally think Obama’s a Muslim, and his record reflects that background. On balance I’m not unhappy if he is because it makes a war with Iran less likely and I’m quite happy to support anything whatsoever that prevents or delays that. But despite my holding Israel to account for the war crimes she does, in fact, without rose-tinted glasses, commit; I don’t support weakening the security structure Israel has and this will inevitably happen under this new environment. So it will be an interesting four more years in the ME.

I wonder if Benghazi is going to become a scandal now he’s re-elected. Or will it just somehow mysteriously fade away as the news cycle moves on.
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November 8, 2012 10:36am
Griff

If a not negotiable bottom line is that toxic to the members of a party the party will not form a government with such a minority group. The experience in New Zealand is negotiating. a lean towards you perspective is far more beneficial than bottom lines and the inability to compromise. I may not agree with the politics of the maori party but they have done far more than mana has on the outside without killing all support for national. Act has been used by national to get charter schools win win for the right. Some voters see education reform as too far right for the national government to do it alone. The more party’s the merrier
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November 8, 2012 10:41am
Pete George

Regarding the insinuations about vested interests, the party most likely to benefit from what I’m suggesting is the Conservative Party.

I’m not a fan of Colin Craig or the CP and don’t support them, but I support the right of people who vote for CP to be represented by the party of their choice the same as all other voters, and I would welcome a CP presence in the parliamentary mix as representative of their constituency.
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November 8, 2012 10:50am
Reid

A very astute observation from a historian at the US Naval Academy. Why is it that people don’t wake up to the fact that history repeats only when you forget it. Most people don’t even seem to know there’s a latter part to that well known saying. There’s a hell of a lot to learn about ME today for example, from studying its history from when oil was discovered-present. Most people know that but some don’t seem to bother doing anything about it as they form their opinions. Isn’t that peculiar.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/opinion/the-permanent-militarization-of-america.html?hp&_r=2&pagewanted=all&
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November 8, 2012 10:53am
Reid

I would welcome a CP presence in the parliamentary mix as representative of their constituency.

I think Craig made a strategic mistake by making his first major point of difference issue gay marriage. This was the first time most of the public had ever even heard of the man or his party, and here he was saying this? Is what will now be fixed in many minds. He should have waited until he had something radical on say, the economy, IMO. After all that’s what the ACT party’s seminal issue and if the CP wishes to capture those people he needs to take it over and own it.
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November 8, 2012 10:58am
Reid

An important lesson for the next Republican candidate.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/mitt-romneys-class-problem/2012/11/07/f082c60e-2897-11e2-b4e0-346287b7e56c_blog.html

Comment on the findings of explosive residues on the Polish plane crash that killed the President and many high officials.
http://anonymusgerula.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/smolensk-atentat-terorist-media-mind-control-letters-from-poland-by-wojciech/
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November 8, 2012 11:12am
Manolo

Regarding the insinuations about vested interests, the party most likely to benefit from what I’m suggesting is the Conservative Party.

Of course we believe you, P.G. Was there ever any doubt about your clear and limpid intentions?
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November 8, 2012 11:19am
Pete George

What’s limpid about more representative democracy Manolo?

You have fairly narrow, perhaps extreme political views, you are never going to be happy with a large party, nor a large party leader, so your only chance of being represented is through a small party.

Would you like to see a party that closely represents your preferences have a chance? Or do you want to remain grizzling in exclusion?
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November 8, 2012 11:25am
Pete George

Blog post on “New heights of childishness” prompts The Standard children
http://thestandard.org.nz/new-heights-of-childishness/
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November 8, 2012 11:27am
Manolo

Unbound Muslim stupidity: http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8560985/belgian-beauties-distract-faithful-at-morocco-mosque
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November 8, 2012 11:55am
Ryan Sproull

Unbound Muslim stupidity: http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8560985/belgian-beauties-distract-faithful-at-morocco-mosque

Doesn’t strike me as radically different from the kind of comments we see from Aucklanders about the Boobs on Bikes thing.
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November 8, 2012 12:00pm
Elaycee

Pete George:

That is classic unsubstantiated nonsense. How often has that happened over the past sixteen years?

Jesus wept! Have you been hibernating? Can you not recall the number of times (just before an election) when some repeater from the media has thrust a microphone in front of a minor party leader and been told about ‘bottom line policies’?

So lets refresh your memory with just two such statements from your own Party – prior to the 2011 election:

…with regard to Asset Sales, UnitedFuture will insist that:
– The New Zealand Government retains majority control (51%)
– Shareholding by private investors be capped at 15%
– New Zealand household investors are given preferential purchase right at time of issue.

And this:

UnitedFuture says let’s start with three no-go areas where there would be no asset sales, not now, not ever

http://www.unitedfuture.org.nz/asset-sales-3/

Note the use of the words ‘insist’ and the term “not now, not ever” – from a party that currently has a level of ‘support’ from the electorate that is hovering around the margin of error. If you can’t recall other such instances (from most, if not all minor parties), then I can only suggest you have selective hearing. Or you’re simply being deliberately obtuse.

You choose.
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November 8, 2012 12:04pm
hmmokrightitis

Reid, with ref to your article link on Hone…

“He said housing was not privilege but a right, and Mana would aim to build 20,000 new state homes in three years.”

I will be selling my home soon, and asking for a state funded house. Its my right. This fucktard really doesnt think shit through does he?
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November 8, 2012 12:08pm
wreck1080

I see employment figures are out and they are not pretty.

Even though banks are making record profits, the general population is not doing so well. How does that work?

The exporting industry is perhaps in a more serious decline than thought. Sure, you could say only a few thousand jobs have disappeared . But, there are jobs dependent on the export sector but not actually exporting themselves that have also disappeared. Is this taken into account ?

Between obama winning the US election, and the failing nz economy, you’d wonder why our dollar is so high!! Answer, infant milk powder and china. Perhaps.
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November 8, 2012 12:14pm
hmmokrightitis

Question, looking to someone on the left to confirm please:

Now that Haier effectively owns F & P, will the next labour backed gubbermint, based on their recent “we wouldn’t allow it to be sold” comments seek to nationalise the company, if and when they come to power?

Or was there stance mere populist shit masquerading as policy?
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November 8, 2012 12:25pm
Pete George

Elaycee – you are confusing electioneering with coalition negotiating, which most people understand involves compromises.

National didn’t have to enter a coalition agreement with UF (or ACT or the Maori Party) but they chose to. There was no pressure or coercion involved. They didn’t have to agree with anything in their coalition agreements they didn’t want to.

Our MMP has become fairly effective and trouble free. Coalitions are working well.

By the way, I don’t expect National will have stuck to the letter of all their election ‘promises/bottom lines’ by the end of this term.

You seem to be ignorant of or deliberaetly ignoring how our MMP works.

And that is now, under the current MMP system. UF have one electorate MP. That would be no different under alternative MMP systems, unless electorate MPs were banned from forming coalitions.
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November 8, 2012 12:25pm
RF

peterwn….9.00am. Similar story involving a cop at our local station. Pay packet containing around $400.00 was handed into the Police as found property. The finder called in the next day to see if it had been claimed. There was no record of it being handed in and when they searched the cops locker it was found hidden in a shoe. 8 months banged up for his stupid actions. I have found the Police to fully investigate any suggestion of wrong doing by their staff. That is very important as the last thing we need is corrupt cops.
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November 8, 2012 12:30pm
Viking2

yep wreck and been predictable.
120 manufacturing jobs gone in CHCH in the last two days.

I can tell by the phone and the work coming in and I picked this 4 weeks ago.

More to come yet with the dollar the way it is. Not a lot we can do but stop importing and spending. We are spending too much on new cars for a start.

The banks will have to start lowering again and the first hots came last night with BNZ offering a Claytons drop.
Got given a .01% off my mortgage on near a $850k amount the other day. i.e. about $8 per day. Bloody derisory and almost and insult.
Waiting a bit more and then will go to market and see who will do better.

They are stocking the larder for hard times.

Germany is now being downgraded as Europe is failing and more to come. USA in the crap. China affected by Europe and to a lessor extent USA. Aussie by china. Kiwiland by everyone. Hard times ahead.
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November 8, 2012 12:31pm
Pete George

Elaycee, I’m not sure where you’re coming from. Apart from not having made a disclaimer the points you’re bringing up are all happening now under our existing MMP. The proposed Electoral Commission changes or the status quo won’t effect anything you’ve brought up.

What do you want to happen with our electoral system? Nothing? Or more exclusion of smaller parties?

Do you think United Future has disproportionately abused it’s power?
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November 8, 2012 12:33pm
Reid

This fucktard really doesnt think shit through does he?

Neither does this one.
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November 8, 2012 12:36pm
Griff

PG posted his disclaimer pointing out he does not represent the United Future party but his own views
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November 8, 2012 12:37pm
Paulus

Griff

Your 9.12 re Winston.
You are deluded if you think that Winston has any scruples or morals.
He has lied so often he cannot be taken seriously.
He will take any baubles of power you wish to give him.
He still has to pay back the money he stole from taxpayers.
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November 8, 2012 12:55pm
Harriet

Reid & Manolo & PG #

Here is why the conservatives will pull in more votes than the Greens at the next election.

Baby bonuses and payments for children incentivises having children, whereas the state should only incentivise having children in circumstances which are advantageous for society.

Since Child Benefit is awarded with the birth of every child near-regardless of circumstances, it has put rocket fuel behind NZ’s astronomical rate – and rising – of fatherless children born to elective lone mothers.

The rationale from Labour and the Greens for this is, first, that welfare benefits should be focused on solving child poverty!

But this totally ignores the fact that lone parenthood is itself a major cause of child poverty; and no less important, that even more than material goods children desperately need their fathers.

The increasing monetary cost of supporting these ‘households’ is showing no gain for the children themselves, as they keep remaining disadvataged as all the ‘indicators’ show, they generally make little improvement. Increasing the child payments further won’t aleviate their predictiment nor the predictiment of children in the next generation who are born into such circumstances.

The unmentionable fact is that Child Benefit has been a disaster and should be replaced by incentives for Marriage in the tax and benefits system — incentives which in turn do not penalise single-earner households. But that, of course, would require courage to face down the shibboleths of the left.

And that is one thing that the Key government shows a near-pathological aversion to displaying. And Shearer just can’t do it.

Conservatives really do care. Do the voters?

My guess is that 13%+ will.
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November 8, 2012 12:56pm
Manolo

PG posted his disclaimer pointing out he does not represent the United Future party but his own views

Here and now I post my disclaimer pointing out I do not represent Manolo’s party but my own views.
All for the greater good of society. Tui ad coming.
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November 8, 2012 12:59pm
Manolo

Unrelated to “that” video: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i0aKPIse1bbtAHD3LIdkpTfHfw7g?docId=c116e763ff084c0289aa2bd1b519032d
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November 8, 2012 1:03pm
Elaycee

@Pete George: I haven’t got all day to write to and fro on this issue – so I’ll sum it up before I move on:

The initial comment related to a lack of Government stability due to the actions of minor parties. I said this had already happened in 1996 when Peters held the country to ransom for weeks as he went between National and Labour and ‘negotiated’ the best deal he could get…

Then you countered by saying that this wouldn’t happen nowadays and I called bollocks – it happens every election. And I have given examples where even your own party was doing it.

You call it electioneering. I call it for what it is – a minor party using ‘bottom line’ policy as part of coalition talks. A case of the tail wagging the dog. And it remains one of the worst features of MMP – a party that can only scrape, say 2% of the vote, pushes it’s own ‘bottom line’ policies as part of a coalition arrangement. But the minor party conveniently forgets that the electorate has already expressed their opinion of the same policy during the election… and 98% voted for someone else.

I’m off into into a series of meetings… so I’ll leave this for you to debate with yourself. 😀
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November 8, 2012 1:09pm
Pete George

The rationale from Labour and the Greens for this is, first, that welfare benefits should be focused on solving child poverty!

An attempt to do that was stifled in parliament yesterday due Dunne not supporting Metiria Turei’s bill that would give in-work tax credits to benificiaries. It sounded like Dunne had quite a bit of support from the National benches on this as Turei tried to shame him into supporting her bill – for the children in poverty – as this QT exchange shows.

Metiria Turei: Why will not the Minister support this potential solution at least being considered at select committee, when all the evidence suggests that it could make the crucial difference to a quarter of a million Kiwi kids, and that he today could be the difference between an empty and a full plate for many of these children?

Hon PETER DUNNE: I reject that assertion entirely.

Metiria Turei: You reject those children entirely.

Hon PETER DUNNE: I am not rejecting those children. That is a ridiculous statement.

More: Turei questions Dunne on in-work tax credits

Disclaimer: I had nothing to do with Dunne’s stance on this but I agree with him.

Oddly Labour seem to have changed their stance on their WFF initiative dramatically.
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November 8, 2012 1:10pm
Harriet

“…you are never going to be happy with a large party, nor a large party leader, so your only chance of being represented is through a small party…”

PG is right about that where Labour is concerned!

“…..It all stems from the collapse of socialism, after which left-wingers shifted their focus from economics to issues of group identity.
Instead of attacking the capitalist West for oppressing the workers, they attacked mainstream society for oppressing marginalised or minority groups that were held to be victims of the majority.
Hugely aided by human rights law, such groups then became immune from criticism and were encouraged to complain about their treatment.
Moreover, how people felt became much more important than anything they actually did. So if such a victim group claimed to have been insulted, that was regarded as proof that an insult had actually occurred.
This replacement of objective reality by subjective feelings was a recipe for turning truth and justice inside out.
When George Orwell created his fictional ‘thought police’ and ‘Ministry of Truth’, he was attacking Stalinism and its attempt to re-configure human psychology itself….’ – Melanie Phillips.

Incredible as it may seem, that’s what we have in NZ with ‘political correctness’, which should more properly be called cultural Stalinism — a regime of oppression and intimidation in which even innocent children are being branded as bigots.

A kinder, gentler world? No, this is where freedom dies with a boot stamping on its face!

Winston First will side of course with National and the Conservatives at the next election.
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November 8, 2012 1:13pm
Pete George

Elaycee – it isn’t a debate, you are ignoring anything I say and ignoring the reality of how our MMP has been working all this century. And you aren’t proposing anything different, you’re complaining without offering any alternative.

The obvious assumption is are not prepared to say you want one party government, and perhaps would like one party state – as long as it’s your party.
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November 8, 2012 1:14pm
Harriet

PG#

“….But this totally ignores the fact that lone parenthood is itself a major cause of child poverty;…the unmentionable fact is that Child Benefit has been a disaster[for kids of single mums] and should be replaced by incentives for Marriage in the tax and benefits system — incentives which in turn do not penalise single-earner households….”

Is anyone in the government actually taking note of that situation Pete?

Government creats disincentives in the welfare and tax system for the benefit of individuals – why is single motherhood not being disincentivised? Surely it’s not a good thing?

And why is having children in ‘advantageous conditions for children’ not being incentivised?

Children need an enviroment where they thrive – incentivising for that enviroment is a good thing.
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November 8, 2012 1:34pm
Manolo

The solution would be to make that wonderful quango (and Dunne’s concoction), the Commission for Families, fifty times bigger.

Every NZ child and family will be very, very happy with the myriad of bureaucrats watching over them.
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November 8, 2012 1:41pm
Pete George

Harriet – I’d have thought that the prospects of being a lone parent on a perpetual benefit would be a disincentive for most people. It is a far from ideal situation for children. If future parents cared most about the good of their children they would do as much as possible to ensure they had two decent parents and a decent income.

But unfortunately the world doesn’t work like that.

How many solo parents have children due to the ‘incentive’ of a benefit?
How many bonk and end up with an unplanned sprog?
How many start with the best of intentions but find they have a no hoper father of their child/children?

It’s difficult to address without knowing how many are involved. Even then it’s virtually impossible in a decent society to stop people procreating. The birth rate was much higher in New Zealand before the solo parent benefit.
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November 8, 2012 1:49pm
hinamanu

My quote of the day

“The markets just dropped over 300 points today. Biggest in a year. Seek God and prepare for your friends and family”
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November 8, 2012 1:50pm
Pete George

The solution would be to make that wonderful quango (and Dunne’s concoction), the Commission for Families, fifty times bigger.

I think it’s recently been made smaller, by Dunne and National.
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November 8, 2012 1:52pm
Luc Hansen

If future parents cared most about the good of their children they would do as much as possible to ensure they had two decent parents and a decent income.

It’s frustrating watching this kind of crap being peddled by a so-called moderate.

Here’s the thing: most parents do care most about their kids, and do as much as they find possible, and the ones who seem to be failing their kids need help, not abuse nor Harriet’s ‘disincentives’.

Put the kids first, yes, even before retribution – sadly, I guess that’s just not the Kiwiblog way.
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November 8, 2012 2:20pm
Luc Hansen

So last night Right Now accused me of ducking a fight without accounting for the simple fact that I was unaware of a post referencing my good self from my playmate from way back, Tom Hunter. Really, as if I would duck a scrap. RN should have spent time with me in my old after-work stamping ground!

Anyway, I have to rush, but one topic was the Laffer Curve, which I called the Lafter Curve.

Here’s Paul Krugman on the topic:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/enter-laffering/

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/25/more-laffering/

The Laffer Curve is junk science, which, it seems, greatly appeals to our Tom on many fronts, not just economics!

Gotta go, four year old awaits!
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November 8, 2012 2:24pm
Pete George

Put the kids first, yes, even before retribution – sadly, I guess that’s just not the Kiwiblog way.

Odd comment. What are you suggesting, give money directly to kids?

and the ones who seem to be failing their kids need help

I agree, but just giving everyone more (taxpayer) money won’t address this. And closing the gap too much between wages/tax credits and benefits/tax credits/allowances will create more problems (and long term beneficiaries) than it solves.
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November 8, 2012 2:33pm
Harriet

Luc #

“…and the ones who seem to be failing their kids need help, not abuse nor Harriet’s ‘disincentives”

I had posted this earlier Luc –

‘…The unmentionable fact is that Child Benefit has been a disaster and should be replaced by incentives for Marriage in the tax and benefits system — incentives which in turn do not penalise single-earner households…”

There is a yawning gap Luc between ‘disincentivising’ and ‘penalising’.

Married people are not ‘net detractors’ from direct government expenditure or from government services or the costs of those services -yet- they are the ones who are being told “NZ can no longer afford an aged pension.”

All the arguements against strengthening the Marriage Act and incentivising Marriage via the tax system are ALL false!

Women -according to feminist studies- are NOW the major decision makers in each Married household on matters like major purchases[the house included], schooling, budgets, expenditure and investments.

Most Married couples -again according to feminist studies- both work and arrive home from work stressed, tired and sore, they then BOTH take care of household chores and children.

Yes women, and again according to feminist studies do SLIGHTLY more around the house than the husband, but that is not due to sexism or mysogony – but tiredness & lazyness.

Due to no-faults divorce, Marriage is now seen by some husbands and wifes as being ‘optional’ and when things become ‘optional’ people will concentrate on the negatives of Marriage instead of the positives. And that is selfish where children are involved.

Marriage does not fail people, but rather, people fail Marriage. Marriage is acknowledged by all statistics as being the ‘gold standard’ where the welfare and development of children are concerned.

The Conservatives, and almost certainly Winston First, will have a field day at the next election at the exspense of National and Labour.Feminists too, will be very costly at the next election for Labour.
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November 8, 2012 3:04pm
hinamanu

http://www.secretsofthefed.com/wichita-voters-reject-fluoridated-water/
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November 8, 2012 3:10pm
Manolo

That’s a big knife: http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-axes-another-500-jobs-20121108-28zx4.html
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November 8, 2012 3:18pm
chiz

Elaycee:Morrinsville Policeman is convicted stealing money from a wallet handed in by a member of the public.

Last year I was walking down Papanui Road and came across a wallet on the road next to a bus stop. Some of the cards inside had come out. I assume someone put it on the roof of a car, got in the car, forgot about the wallet and drove off. There was a policewoman in a car about 50m away so I took it to her to deal with. I explained to what happened and she took my details. Then she opened up the wallet and showed me how much money was inside and explained to me that the reason she was doing this so that there was a witness to how much money was in it and thereby protect herself from any allegations should the wallet be returned to its owner with any money missing and the owner blamed her or one of her colleagues. It left me wondering whether police are trained to do that or whether she personally had a low opinion of her fellow officers.
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November 8, 2012 3:59pm
krazykiwi

RIP Clive Dunn.
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November 8, 2012 4:03pm
Kea

chiz, the history of policing is one of corruption and brutality. We have one of the better police forces, but that is not saying much. In most of the world the cops would take all the money in a wallet. No one would expect any more of them. Its just life.
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November 8, 2012 4:16pm
Manolo

Another “offended” delicate soul moans and whines, and this tripe makes the news: http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8561210/aussie-commentator-slams-key-over-gay-quip
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November 8, 2012 4:22pm
chiz

Facebook page where Palmerston North residents can rate other people’s sexual prowess is deleted.
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November 8, 2012 4:27pm
Reid

Meanwhile in Brazil, the UN does what its good at – social engineering disguised as human wights:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/un-agencies-ask-brazilian-president-to-criminalize-homophobia

The study tested the Brazilian population for “homophobia” by asking people to comment on such statements as “God made men and women with different sexes so that they could fulfill their role and have children.” The 92% of Brazilians who agreed partially or completely with the statement were labeled “homophobic.”

Yes this is right. If you support natural laws which have stood the test of civilisation upon civilisation throughout mankind’s entire recorded history, you’re homophobic.

The UN must have a shitload of “advanced thinkers” mustn’t it, to come up with this stuff, all the time.
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November 8, 2012 4:29pm
Manolo

What do they know about rugby? http://www.rugby365.com/article/50544-anc-slams-meyer-s-white-selections
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November 8, 2012 4:30pm
Kea

Manolo, South African blacks are a MINORITY remember……….. oh wait !

Maybe they should select on race. The National team should be representative of the general population in its racial make up. That would make for a very different AB team. Can’t wait to see all them Chinese in the AB’s and a whole lot less pacific islanders.
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November 8, 2012 4:35pm
krazykiwi

I wonder how long Greece can go on before decsending into civil war? Their austerity bill was passed, despite the riots and, curiously, parliamentary staff apparently trying to sabbotage the voting process!
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November 8, 2012 4:50pm
Kea

I wonder how long Greece can go on before decsending into civil war?

They are part of the Nobel Peace Prize winning EU. Surely they can not…
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November 8, 2012 4:53pm
Pete George

A new party (or is it an old party rebadged?): http://www.unifiednz.org.nz/

Sounded a bit interesting (even Ansell-ish!) until it became obvious they want everyone unified behind their reforms.

Unified New Zealand has been established to empower the people of New Zealand to become a unified voice as a nation. Not as “We the Government”, “We the law”, or even “We the people”, but “We the Nation”.

In order to achieve this we must become self sufficient as a nation and put an end to the economic and social issues caused by the reckless levels of foreign investment currently depleting our nation’s money supply and resources.

As long as profit, rather than prosperity, remains the priority, the system will always be unfair and the distribution of wealth will continue to grow.

Transitioning to Treasury (government) issued currency backed by precious metals e.g. gold

Spending Treasury (government) issued currency into the economy through a Social Dividend to ALL New Zealanders.

Underlying these priorities will be the need for 3 key projects to reform the current political, economic and monetary system.

It’s a hard job finding the perfect party.
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November 8, 2012 5:07pm
chiz

Looking at ballot results, I see that Californians have rejected a proposal for labelling of GE produce, and North Dakotans have voted to amend the state’s constitution to protect farmer’s rights to use agricultural technology.

And voters in Idaho, Kentucky, and Nebraska all said yes to measures that would enshrine hunting and fishing as constitutional rights in their states.
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November 8, 2012 5:18pm
Reid

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/266709-immigration-reformers-see-obama-win-latino-turnout-as-game-changer
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November 8, 2012 5:23pm
bhudson

Pete,

It reads a bit like either John Minto or Sue Bradford has fallen out with Hone Harawira.
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November 8, 2012 5:27pm
Kea

I looked at your link Reid. Does not match what the msm have been telling us, does it….

“The changing demographics have prompted a number of prominent conservatives — including former President George W. Bush”

“when President Bush championed comprehensive immigration reforms in 2007, it was shot down”

I guess Bush retired undefeated for a reason 🙂
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November 8, 2012 5:37pm
Elaycee

@chiz (3:59 pm): Have no idea whether her actions were driven by Policy, but it sounds like a good idea anyway.

Society contains plenty of morons who would jump at the chance to make bullshit claims against our Police. In fact, a few names spring to mind from within the KB ranks…. 😀
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November 8, 2012 5:37pm
Kea

They don’t need to “bullshit” Elaycee. There is plenty of real stuff. Have you checked the news recently?

Or do you think the Judiciary are all “bullshitting”, the police themselves are “bullshitting” and it is all some sort of conspiracy?
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November 8, 2012 5:45pm
chiz

More thoughts on Key. Yesterday I linked to a stuff article in which Key appeared to be denying that he insulted Beckham. But after watching the TV clip of his answer, and re-reading the article, its clear he wasn’t doing that. He was merely denying using the word batshit, rather than denying any insult. Given his claim that he was mis-heard I think that might have happened is that he did insult Beckham but he used pigshit and that the person who was the source of the story misunderstood him and thought he said batshit.
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November 8, 2012 6:21pm
Pauleastbay

The one big positive to come out of the US Presidential elections for me was that lots of the resident political genius’s on Kiwiblog picked Romney, which was pie in the sky. ( He actually got an arse kicking , he really did)

These are the same resident genius’s ( or is it geniui’s) who are predicting that National will not be re-elected next term – these are the same who are continually scare mongering regards fantasy coalitions with the aged dwarf drunk having some say.

I take heart from their political inadequacies and now know that JK will lead for at least 9 years.
This is a huge load off my mind for the next couple of years.
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November 8, 2012 6:47pm
liarbors a joke

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7923482/Appeal-court-increases-fathers-sentence-to-jail

Finally, something sensible from our judiciary, about f**** time. Now keep up the momentum and start nailing these scum.
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November 8, 2012 6:49pm
bhudson

So the last time the master strategist of the Labour Party – Trevor Mallard – put his poison pen to (electronic) paper on Red Alert was 26 July. One can only deduct that his failed tactics have seen him banished to the (official social media channel) gulag.

How have the Party’s fortunes feared since the end of July? And what is the fate of the latest party strategist now that the other two Davids seems to be cosying up somewhat?

Grant Robertson has some questions to answer.
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November 8, 2012 7:40pm
nasska

Every night, Frank would go down to the liquor store, get a six pack, bring it home, and drink it while he watched TV. One night, as he finished his last beer, the doorbell rang. He stumbled to the door and found a six-foot cockroach standing there. The bug grabbed him by the collar and threw him across the room, then left.

The next night, after he finished his fourth beer, the doorbell rang. He walked slowly to the door and found the same six-foot cockroach standing there. The big bug punched him in the stomach, then left.

The next night, after he finished his first beer, the doorbell rang again. The same six-foot cockroach was standing there. This time he was kneed in the groin and hit behind the ear as he doubled over in pain. Then the big bug left.

The fourth night Frank didn’t drink at all. The doorbell rang. The cockroach was standing there. The bug beat the snot out of Frank and left him in a heap on the living room floor.

The following day, Frank went to see his doctor. He explained events of the preceding four nights. “What can I do?” he pleaded. “Not much” the doctor replied. “There’s just a nasty bug going around.”
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November 8, 2012 8:00pm
Pauleastbay

A skinny white guy goes into an elevator, looks up and sees this huge guy standing next to him. The big guy sees the little guy staring at him, looks down and says: “7 feet tall, 350 pounds, 20 inch cock, 3 pounds of testicles. Turner Brown.” The little guy faints and falls to the floor. The big guy kneels down and shaking him: “What’s wrong with you?” In a weak voice th elitle guy says: “What exactly did you say to me?” The big dude says: “I saw your curious look and figured I’d just give you the answers to the questions everyone always asks me: I’m 7 feet tall, I weigh 350 lbs, I have a 20 inch cock and my testicles weigh 3lbs each, and my name is Turner Brown.” The small guy says: “Turner Brown?! Sweet Jesus, I THOUGHT YOU SAID ‘TURN AROUND’.”
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November 8, 2012 8:02pm
nasska

Tom had been in Police work for 25 years. Finally sick of the stress, he quits his job and buys 50 acres of land in Western Australia as far from civilisation as possible.

He sees the postman once a week and gets groceries once a month. Otherwise it’s total peace and quiet.

After six months or so of almost total isolation there’s a knock at the door. He opens it and a huge, bearded man is standing there.

“Name’s Cliff, I’m your neighbour from forty miles up the road. Having a party Friday night. Thought you might like to come…” “Great!” says Tom “After six months out here I’m ready to meet some local folks. Thank you”.

As Cliff is leaving, he stops. “Gotta warn you. There’ll be some drinking”. “Not a problem” says Tom. “After 25 years in the business, I can drink with the best of ’em.”

Again, the big man starts to leave and stops. “More ‘n” likely gonna be some fighting too.” “Well, I get along with people, I’ll be all right! I’ll be there. Thanks again.”

“More’n likely be some wild sex too.” “Now that’s really not a problem” says Tom, warming to the idea. “I’ve been all alone for six months! I’ll definitely be there. By the way, what should I wear?” “Don’t much matter. Just gonna be the two of us.”
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November 8, 2012 8:08pm
Pauleastbay

Mowed the lawn today, and after doing so I sat down and had a couple nice cold beers. The day was really quite beautiful, and the brew facilitated some deep thinking on various topics.
Finally I thought about an age old question: Is giving birth more painful than getting kicked in the nuts?
Women always maintain that giving birth is way more painful than a guy getting kicked in the nuts. Well, aft
er another beer, and some heavy deductive thinking, I have come up with the answer to that question. Getting kicked in the nuts is more painful than having a baby; and here is the reason for my conclusion.
A year or so after giving birth, a woman will often say, “it might be nice to have another child.”
On the other hand, you never hear a guy say, “You know, I think I would like another kick in the nuts.”
I rest my case.
Time for another beer.
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November 8, 2012 8:12pm
nasska

“What the hell is going on here?!” I shouted as I walked into my sons bedroom.

“Look at the fucking state of it!”

“Oh come on dad.” he replied, “She’s not that bad.”
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November 8, 2012 8:20pm
Pauleastbay

A couple was having dinner one evening when the husband reached across the table, took his wife’s hand in his and said,
“Beth, soon we will be married 30 years, and there’s something I have to know. In all of these 30 years, have you ever been unfaithful to me?”
Beth replied, “Well Charles, I have to be honest with you.
Yes, I’ve been unfaithful to you three times during these 30 years,
but always
for a good reason.”
Charles was obviously hurt by his wife’s confession, but said,
“I never suspected.
Can you tell me what you mean by ‘good reasons’?”
Beth said, “The very first time was shortly after we were married,
and we were about to lose our little house because we couldn’t pay the mortgage. Do you remember that one evening I went to see the banker and the next day he notified you that the loan would be extended?”
Charles recalled the visit to the banker and said,
“I can forgive you for that. You saved our home,but what about the second time?”Beth asked, “And do you remember when you were so sick, but we didn’t have the money to pay for the heart surgery you needed? Well, I went to see your doctor one night and, if you recall, he did the surgery at no charge.”
“I recall that,” says Chuck. “And you did it to save my life, so of course I can forgive you for that. Now tell me about the third time.”
“All right,” Beth said.
“So do you remember when you ran for president of your golf club,
and you needed 73 more votes?”
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November 8, 2012 8:23pm
Griff

Women will never be equal to men until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.
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November 8, 2012 8:25pm
nasska

The doctor said, “Err, ..Mr Smith, …I got your little note declaring your undying love for me.”

The patient said, “Yes? Do you like it? Do you feel the same way?”

“Well I’m very flattered,” he replied, “It’s just not something I expect to find during a prostate examination.”
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November 8, 2012 8:30pm
Shunda barunda

My 12 year old boy just seen the laptop and asked what Kiwiblog was.

I said it is like facebook but for arguing! 🙂

Though to be fair, some of the people I spy on through my wife’s facebook page certainly could give a few here a run for their money, some of those online meltdowns and feuds via facebook are intense!!
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November 8, 2012 8:34pm
Shunda barunda

The same boy asked the question “why do some boys wank” 😮

I’m not sure how to answer that! anyone got any parenting tips on that one?
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November 8, 2012 8:36pm
Griff

Open and frank discussion about self stimulation and Good time to first intruduce the wider picture of SEX
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November 8, 2012 8:40pm
nasska

Same reason as some people climb Mt Everest Shunda…because it’s there. 🙂
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November 8, 2012 8:40pm

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