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November 16, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 16 November 2012

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General Debate

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Reid

It would seem that insulating kids from the realities of history and war is very, very important.

Shunda it’s insulating boys from being boys. We’re not allowed to play, ever again. It’s all part of the plot to turn every single city boy into a metrosexual. Your son’s generation is the first into the testing pens.

Recall the kindy a few months ago whose teachers decided it would be great if they checked toy guns out and made boys not point them at anyone and use them like they were at a rifle range. The well-meaning female teachers apparently not realising that the whole point of a gun for a boy is to point it at someone and run around behind things and pretend to kill and be killed etc but no, appawentwy, that was weally bad.
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November 16, 2012 7:36pm
Luc Hansen

@DG

Why pick on me? I’m simply responding to others, with interest.

And maybe, just maybe, I can walk and chew gum at the same time.

You?
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November 16, 2012 7:38pm
Viking2

THE MUSLIMS ARE NOT HAPPY!

They’re not happy in Gaza ..
They’re not happy in Egypt ..
They’re not happy in Libya …
They’re not happy in Morocco …
They’re not happy in Iran …
They’re not happy in Iraq …
They’re not happy in Yemen …
They’re not happy in Afghanistan …
They’re not happy in Pakistan ..
They’re not happy in Syria ..
They’re not happy in Lebanon ..

SO, WHERE ARE THEY HAPPY?

They’re happy in Australia ..
They’re happy in Canada ..
They’re happy in England ..
They’re happy in New Zealand ..
They’re happy in France ..
They’re happy in Italy …
They’re happy in Germany ..
They’re happy in Sweden …
They’re happy in the USA ..
They’re happy in Norway …
They’re happy in Holland ..
They’re happy in Denmark ..

Basically, they’re happy in every country that is not Muslim
and unhappy in every country that is!

AND WHO DO THEY BLAME?

Not Islam.
Not their leadership.
Not themselves.

THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!

AND THEN; They want to change those countries to be like….
THE COUNTRY THEY CAME FROM WHERE THEY WERE UNHAPPY!

Excuse me, but I can’t help wondering…
How dumb can you get?
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November 16, 2012 7:38pm
chiz

Korean presidential hopeful wants to free up Korean internet usage. If you want to do online banking or commerce in Korea you can only use Internet Explorer at the moment, since the security technology used requires activeX and therefore isn’t available for firefox or chrome.
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November 16, 2012 7:39pm
Shunda barunda

appawentwy, that was weally bad.

😀

We live in an increasingly dopey society, that’s for damned sure. The future is limp! 🙂
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November 16, 2012 7:42pm
Elaycee

@Luc:

There are 1.6 million human beings living in Gaza and to wipe out all resistance to Israel’s occupation, just how many do you think would have to be killed?

Only the Hamas terrorists, Luc. Only the terrorists. The rest should be entitled to live in peace. So too the residents of the sovereign state of Israel.

Shalom.
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November 16, 2012 7:43pm
chiz

US Tax dollars at work. The Pentagon has been spending money on various projects including:

• an Office of Naval Research research project that helped spawn Caffeine Zone 2, an iPhone application that tells people how to schedule their coffee breaks.

[…]

• $100,000 for a 2011 workshop on interstellar space travel that included a session entitled “Did Jesus die for Klingons too?” The session probed how Christian theology would apply in the event of the discovery of aliens.
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November 16, 2012 7:48pm
mikenmild

I wonder what proportion of the inhabitants of Gaza qualify as ‘terrorists’. Anyone with a gun; anyone related to someone with a gun; a member of Hamas; someone who voted for Hamas; anyone who gets in the way?
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November 16, 2012 7:56pm
nasska

It was the end of the Gulf war. The Arabs stared over at the Oil Fields and watched them burning. Day and Night the Flames roared into the sky. The Arabs pondered on how they were going to put out the fires when one Arab suggested that they ring ‘Red O Dare’. Red O Dare was contacted but informed the Arabs that he was busy for the next six months. Red O Dare told the Arabs that they should ring his cousin Paddy O Dare from Co Mayo in Ireland. The Arab got on the phone and contacted Paddy. The Arab explained the problem with the Oil Fields to Paddy and asked if he could help. Paddy Replied: “No Problem.” The Arab asked him how quick he could get there and how much would it cost?. Paddy Replied: “I can be there in 10 Hours and it’ll cost ya’ $10,000. “Great”; said the Arab and hung up the phone.

The Arabs waited in the Desert, still watching the flames shooting into the sky, when all of a sudden an open top truck with four Red Haired Paddy’s comes roaring over the Sand Dunes and heads straight into the oil field. The Arabs shouted to no avail, and the truck drove straight into one of the burning rigs. They jumped out, took off their Denim Jackets and proceeded to beat the fire out with them. The Arabs watched with amazement and two days later the Oil Rig Fire was Out. The four Paddy’s walked to the Arabs and one said….”Jazus..that was rough!”.

While writing the check for $10,000 he said to Paddy; “And what are you going to buy with all this money?. “Paddy Replied: “Well, the first thing I going to buy a set of brakes for that damn truck!!”
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November 16, 2012 8:00pm
David Garrett

Luc: Because it is inevitably you who brings the damn subject up….which has the same effect as Ure’s “posts”…everyone chiming in with arguments the other side has heard 100 times, and demonstrating positions as doggedly one eyed and intractable as the protaganist they respectively support in the accursed ‘middle east’..
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November 16, 2012 8:02pm
Viking2

Friday, November 16, 2012
Bowden’s alarming Treaty analysis
Muriel Newman’s latest NZCPR Weekly contains an alarming analysis by Roger Bowden, former professor of economics and management at Victoria University. Bowden’s advice, in a nutshell? Forget all that government propaganda about the proceeds of state asset sales going towards health and education, because the money will be entirely swallowed up paying for Treaty settlements.

These ongoing liabilities include the outrageous “top-ups” built in to the Tainui and Ngai Tahu settlements, whereby what were considered fair compensation sums at the time they were negotiated get ratcheted up to ensure some sort of spurious relativity is retained.

Here’s the most salient bit from Bowden’s analysis:

Let’s start with the annual appropriations for running costs, covering such things as negotiation costs, the Waitangi Tribunal & representation, and disbursements under the Marine and Coastal Area (Takutai Moana) Act. The 2012 budget request is $169,969m. The same annual sum (can it ever diminish?) capitalised over 10 years at the current NZ govt bond yield, as the opportunity cost of capital, comes to $1,409m.

Now add in the cost of outstanding and projected settlements up to 2016 (not 10 years, but bear with me here), amounting to $2,800 m. Together with the capitalised running costs, that comes to $4,209m, if my arithmetic is correct.

I’m not sure whether this includes the ratchets promised to Tainui and Ngai Tahu in previous settlements, which at the time envisaged a total of $2 billion instead of the $4 billion so far awarded or projected. Last I heard, Tainui and Ngai Tahu will be sharing a top up of $138.5m, but there will be more down the track as the settlements continue to mount. Nor does this year’s Waitangi Vote allow for future annual costs under the ‘co-management’ regimes that are becoming the norm for Waitangi settlements.

But any way you add up the sums, the message is that present and future commitments under just the one Vote, Treaty Negotiations, will comes to something like 5-6 billion dollars in total present value, probably even more. It’s hard to find Votes with a similarly spectacular explosion. No doubt there are others on a smaller scale; the ministerial travel budget, perhaps? But otherwise, even the traditional biggies like Health and Education seem under control, at least on Treasury projections, especially for Education, which is projected to level off, even turn negative. Expect yet more belt tightening after the latest revenue figures.

Coincidentally, the latest Treaty settlement bill, compensating Auckland’s Ngati Whatua tribe, passed through Parliament yesterday. Compared with the Tainui and Ngai Tahu deals, it’s relatively small beer. But there are many more potentially large settlements in the pipeline, and there’s a very real prospect that the Crown will have to negotiate water access river by river, hapu by hapu, if the courts rule in favour of Maori water rights .

Bowden concludes by saying: “The conclusion is inescapable. We need the partial asset sales to finance the soaring costs of the Treaty industry.”

All of which raises the question that no politician seems willing to confront: how far can New Zealand continue wading into this morass before it becomes completely unaffordable (if it isn’t already)?

Posted by Karl du Fresne at 10:50 AM
Labels: NZCPR, Roger Bowden, Treaty settlements
1 comment:

Jigsaw said…

Karl you are also not counting the losses to the Crown. As far as I know all the settlements (certainly Tainui and Ngati Tahu did) all include a clause that says they have first refusal on surplus crown properties in their area. Our local school closed at the end of 1993 and has remained empty and largely unused since then as an asset to be sold when the local tribe gets their settlement. They of course don’t buy anything (at GV) until they have a buyer at a higher sum. Ngati Tahu have made a huge amount this way. I can’t think that I have ever read anything about this in the daily papers – but then it wouldn’t be nice would it!?
November 16, 2012 12:48 PM
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November 16, 2012 8:05pm
David Garrett

Viking: I am sure you are aware who – or some of whom – negotiated these sweetheart deals which the rest of us will be paying for forever…financially and otherwise. If you are not sure, look no further than National’s cabinet….
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November 16, 2012 8:12pm
Steve (North Shore)

Luc is a troll, just like me. But Luc hijacks General Debate and turns it into Generaly Religious Debate.
Get a job Luc, like hard out 7.30 to 5pm with hands on work. Make the sale and produce the product. What fucking planet do you live on? just trolling all day. Are you the magpies husband/wife?
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November 16, 2012 8:15pm
mikenmild

If treaty settlements are the biggest fiscal problem facing New Zealand then we are truly living in Godzone.
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November 16, 2012 8:18pm
bereal

Hey Luc,
guess what,
nobody respects the opinion of a self confessed nudist who has declared that he is a nudist
because of the ,”eye candy.” that apeals to their sicko psych.

Cant you see that your previous depraved posts have precluded you from having any gravitas.

I’ll record chapter and verse of your own previous comments if you like.

Better just to STFU Luc.
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November 16, 2012 8:23pm
David Garrett

Mikey, you occasionally say something more than a little sensible…that comment was not one of them.

We have allowed ourselves to be exposed to unlimited liability, which will exponentially increase…wage “relativity” was one of the biggest drivers of inflation in the 70s and 80s….this “relativity” will have just as big an impact…
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November 16, 2012 8:29pm
Viking2

DG. Actually both lots are as bad as one another and this analysis is a bit freightening.
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November 16, 2012 8:30pm
Steve (North Shore)

Treaty Settlements are about who soaks the cork the best Mike.
In other words, brownmail and votes
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November 16, 2012 8:39pm
mikenmild

It’s just a transfer of wealth from one group to another. doesn’t affect individuals in the long run. Sensible investment. Treaty settlements are definitely better long-term investments than building Transmission Gully or bailing out South Canterbury Finance.
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November 16, 2012 8:43pm
Steve (North Shore)

In case you missed the cork soakers with Janet Jackson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lWuba4HKg4
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November 16, 2012 8:44pm
chiz

Global warming may not lead to more droughts.
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November 16, 2012 8:44pm
OneTrack

Luc Hansen – When those nutbar Gaza terrorists stop firing missles into Israel, then I will be worried about the Israeli responses. Until then, nope.
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November 16, 2012 9:15pm
mikenmild

Which came first, the terrorists or the retaliation? Who are the terrorists and who is retaliating?
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November 16, 2012 9:26pm
Luc Hansen

Another terrorist bites the dust:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/11monthold-son-of-bbc-picture-editor-is-killed-in-gaza-air-strike-8320052.html

Yep, those 11 month old babies are terrorists, for sure!
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November 16, 2012 9:40pm
chiz

The baby wasn’t the target Luc.
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November 16, 2012 9:42pm
Luc Hansen

Prove it, chiz.

In the type of fire Israel rains down, whomever they hit becomes the target.

The same applies to the rocket launchers, by the way, but they are just savages, aren’t they? Nutbars. Surely we should hold us ‘civilised’ murderers to higher standards?
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November 16, 2012 9:46pm
Reid

The baby wasn’t the target Luc.

What if it was your baby chiz?

Or is that too, just “collateral damage?”
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November 16, 2012 9:47pm
mikenmild

So if Israel launch a full-scale invasion of Gaza to kill the terrorists would the deaths of other infants be okay because only terrorists are the target?
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November 16, 2012 9:48pm
David Garrett

Oh, FFS…the last four posts are exactly what I was talking about earlier….just about ANYTHING – except gay bloody marriage – would be more interesting and enlightening than that … It’s never going to change boys! Go find an old TIME magazine from 30 or 40 years ago…look up the “Midlle East” section….aside from the photos being in black and white, and the names of the central actors, it might as well have been written last week…
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November 16, 2012 9:48pm
Tauhei Notts

A day at Riccarton tomorrow.
What is the best drinking hole for Kiwibloggers after the last race?
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November 16, 2012 9:49pm
Luc Hansen

David Garrett (2,878) Says:
November 16th, 2012 at 8:02 pm
Luc: Because it is inevitably you who brings the damn subject

Check the record, David, the transcript, as Obama would say. I never bring the topic up first – I’m far to smart to be that silly here – and I usually let lots go by from those that do. But it’s a bit different at the moment.
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November 16, 2012 9:54pm
Luc Hansen

mikenmild (5,520) Says:
November 16th, 2012 at 8:18 pm
If treaty settlements are the biggest fiscal problem facing New Zealand then we are truly living in Godzone.

The biggest fiscal problem we we have to deal with is the austerity bomb being readied for delivery by Key and English in their deluded, self imposed and unnecessary target of a budget surplus by 2014 when it is almost certain that the world will still be mired in, or bobbing in and out of, recession.

Happy now, DG? Still off the drink, are we?
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November 16, 2012 9:58pm
chiz

Prove it, chiz.

Oh good grief. Some people around here are too ready with the label antisemite for anyone who criticises Israel, but if you really do think that the Israelis are deliberately targeting babies then you are either an antisemite, as frequently charged, or incredibly stupid.

In the type of fire Israel rains down, whomever they hit becomes the target.

Silly word games. Target and victim are not synonyms, no matter how much you wish it.
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November 16, 2012 10:02pm
David Garrett

Luc: I am as it happens…thanks very much for your concern as to my welfare…but GD is fucked for the night, so I will leave you all to it….
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November 16, 2012 10:11pm
Reid

the last four posts are exactly what I was talking about earlier….just about ANYTHING – except gay bloody marriage – would be more interesting and enlightening than that … It’s never going to change boys! Go find an old TIME magazine from 30 or 40 years ago…look up the “Midlle East” section….aside from the photos being in black and white, and the names of the central actors, it might as well have been written last week…

Haven’t you been keeping up with ME politics David? Iran, Syria? This is what this is about.

Sorry if you find it boring.

I’m surprised you’re incurious as to why it never changes. It’s true that it doesn’t but it’s answering the why that brings fireworks and symphonic surround sound with free Sky, into the living room.
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November 16, 2012 10:17pm
Fletch

Look, as Netanyahu says – the Gazan terrorists PURPOSELY hide behind women and children BECAUSE there will be casualties and they can use the propaganda against Israel.

I want to remind you that seven years ago, Israel withdrew from every square inch of Gaza. Now Hamas, they took over the areas we vacated. What did it do? Rather than build a better future for the residents of Gaza, the Hamas leadership, backed by Iran, turned Gaza into a terrorist stronghold.

They fired thousand of rockets at our cities, at our towns, at our civilians, at our children. They’ve smuggled thousands of rockets and missiles into Gaza, and they deliberately place these rockets and missiles in civilian areas: in homes, in schools, near hospitals. This year alone, the fired over one thousand rockets and missiles at Israel, included close to 200 rockets in the last 24 hours.

I’m stressing this because it’s important to understand one simple point. There is no moral symmetry; there is no moral equivalence, between Israel and the terrorist organizations in Gaza. The terrorists are committing a double war crime. They fire at Israeli civilians, and they hide behind Palestinian civilians. And by contrast, Israel takes every measure to avoid civilian casualties.

I saw today a picture of a bleeding Israeli baby. This picture says it all: Hamas deliberately targets our children, and they deliberately place their rockets next to their children. Despite this reality, and it’s a very difficult reality, Israel will continue to do everything in its power to avoid civilian casualties.

ps, they waited until after the election in the U.S to attack because they know Obama is sympathetic toward them and is a pushover. Romney would never have allowed this, and they knew it.
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November 16, 2012 10:42pm
RightNow

I don’t believe for one second that if Israel laid down their weapons that Hamas would do the same. Israeli citizens are hiding in bomb shelters tonight while Hamas is hiding behind Palestinian citizens. Hamas are 100% responsible for the death of Palestinian citizens. Israel are damned if they do and damned if they don’t, there is no choice for them. The precautionary principle demands that they strike Hamas hard and fast.
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November 16, 2012 11:09pm
RightNow

And shit like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kvaUmIB87-M
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November 16, 2012 11:14pm
Tom Jackson

I wonder what proportion of the inhabitants of Gaza qualify as ‘terrorists’. Anyone with a gun; anyone related to someone with a gun; a member of Hamas; someone who voted for Hamas; anyone who gets in the way?

Presumably, anyone who objects to living in the open air prison that is Gaza. It’s as if New Zealand forcibly confiscated most Maori property and confined most Maoris to the east coast, and then right wing blog bores wondered why they acted violently in response. Hell, I would launch rockets at any country that treated me that way.

I’m having tribute distinguishing between the tactics of Israel and those of Assad. Both are desperate, weaker than they look, and can’t think of anything better to do.
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November 16, 2012 11:34pm
Luc Hansen

but if you really do think that the Israelis are deliberately targeting babies then you are either an antisemite,

I’m saying Israel doesn’t give a toss whom they kill within the confines of Gaza, baby, toddler, child, teenager, women, men, civilians, militants. It’s not anti-Semitism, it’s just a fact, a policy, even, and I would point exactly the same bone at the Palestinian rocket operatives.

But Israel does it in far greater numbers and, precisely because of their high precision weaponry they like to brag about, they carry greater culpability.

And, of course, they are the occupiers and in the case of Gaza, blockade enforcers aimed at always and forever humiliating those they have dispossessed.

@RN

So what you are asking of Palestinians is complete and abject surrender and then…do what? Become indentured slaves to their conquerors? Emigrate to the USA? Say, we need a bigger population: why don’t we get Israel/US to pay us to resettle them here? And if they Pallys say no, well, I’m sure elaycee can come up with a final solution.
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November 16, 2012 11:42pm
RightNow

Actually Luc, I guess I’m saying they just have to slug it out. Some things only get settled after an epic fight.
Maybe Iran will get involved and Israel can settle their differences with them too. Perhaps the time has come. It seems an inevitability.
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November 16, 2012 11:49pm
RightNow

Welcome to the Thunderdome.
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November 16, 2012 11:52pm
Reid

How about some extreme skiing, to calm us all down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNTX55Rpk8w&feature=related
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November 16, 2012 11:58pm
RightNow

Stand and fight we do consider
Reminded of an inner pact between us
That’s seen as we go
And ride there
In motion
To fields in debts of honor
Defending

Stand the marchers soaring talons,
Peaceful lives will not deliver freedom,
Fighting we know,
Destroy oppression
The point to reaction
As leaders look to you
Attacking

Choose and renounce throwing chains to the floor.
Kill or be killing faster sins correct the flow.
Casting giant shadows off vast penetrating force
To alter via the war that seen
As friction spans the spirits wrath ascending (slowly) to redeem.

Wars that shout in screams of anguish,
Power spent passion bespoils our soul receiver,
Surely we know.
In glory
We rise to offer,
Create our freedom,
A word we utter,
A word.

Words cause our banner, victorious our day.
Will silence be promised as violence display?
The curse increased we fight the power
And live by it by day.
Our gods awake in thunderous roars,
And guide the leaders’ hand in paths of glory to the cause.

Listen, should we fight forever
Knowing as we do know fear destroys?
Listen, should we leave our children?
Listen, our lives stare in silence;
Help us now.

Listen, your friends have been broken,
They tell us of your poison; now we know.
Kill them, give them as they give us.
Slay them, burn their childrens’ laughter
On to hell.

The fist will run, grasp metal to gun.
The spirit sings in crashing tones,
We gain the battle drum.
Our cries will shrill, the air will moan and crash into the dawn.
The pen won’t stay the demon’s wings,
The hour approaches pounding out the Devil’s sermon.

Soon, oh soon the light,
Pass within and soothe this endless night
And wait here for you,
Our reason to be here.

Soon, oh soon the time,
All we move to gain will reach and calm;
Our heart is open,
Our reason to be here.

Long ago, set into rhyme.
Soon, oh soon the light,
Ours to shape for all time,
Ours the right;
The sun will lead us,
Our reason to be here.

Soon, oh soon the light,
Ours to shape for all time,
Ours the right;
The sun will lead us,
Our reason to be here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUFQlYIsciQ
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November 17, 2012 12:06am
SPC

First a Hizbollah drone was used to provoke Israel, then Syria fired into Israel, then finally Hamas.

It would seem that Teheran and Damascus are very seriously trying to divert focus on united opposition to the Assad regime developing in Syria and western recognition of it.

That Hamas (not shia unlike the others) could be amenable to handing over the Palestinian cause to the exploitative use of these other interests speaks to their lack of credibility as a Palestinian nationalist group.
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November 17, 2012 12:33am
SPC

Tom Jackson – your refusal to recognise the state of Israel’s right to exist is irrelevant to the rest of the world.
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November 17, 2012 12:36am
SPC

Luc, of course Gaza is blockaded – the residents are trying to import longer range missilies than they can produce locally.

Until they make a peace with Israel or stop either arming themselves or using these arms – nothing will change.
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November 17, 2012 12:39am
Luc Hansen

SPC (1,496) Says:
November 17th, 2012 at 12:33 am

First a Hizbollah drone was used to provoke Israel, then Syria fired into Israel, then finally Hamas.

Wow, that’s an entirely new conspiracy theory! Take a bow, SPC.

You know, I once employed a Sales Manager whose hobby was building and flying model airplanes. He showed me, one Friday, his latest pride and joy that he was test flying that weekend. Monday morning arrived and he came to work distressed. He had launched his pride and joy off the cliffs of Muriwai and watched helplessly as it didn’t respond to his remote control and headed straight out to sea!

I suspect that’s what happened to Hizbollah’s drone.

Syria’s mortar shells were most likely sent deliberately by terrorists attacking Assad’s rule. Good tactic. Good cause.

Then Hamas thought they come come to a truce with Israel until the F16 bombed to death their main conduit to Israel. That was why Jabani was in a car in the open – there was a truce in place, until, as always happens, Israel broke it.

But there was a purpose to that murder. Operation Pillars of Cloud/Election 2013.

“To Everything

There is a season

And a time to every purpose, under Heaven”
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November 17, 2012 1:51am
Elaycee

Luc’s latest brainfart:

Then Hamas thought they come come (sic) to a truce with Israel
…there was a truce in place, until, as always happens, Israel broke it.

Oh bollocks… stop telling porkies! Those comments are simply a blatant attempt to replace reality with bullshit courtesy of Luc Hansen. You have conveniently forgotten that the Hamas terrorists had lobbed 120+ rockets over the border into the sovereign state of Israel and that resulted in a (long overdue) reaction from the IDF.

Whilst you’re a self-appointed defender of the Hamas terrorists, your total denial of facts would do Goebbels proud.

Israel is on their land. Get used to it. And Israel will defend it’s people with all of it’s might. And when the Israelis take off the head off the Hamas snake, don’t come bleating here that you couldn’t see it coming. Because everyone else can…

The solution is simple – if Hamas stops it’s acts of terrorism and Israel is left in peace, there would actually be no retaliation.

And as soon as you stop telling blatant lies, there will be no need to point them out.
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November 17, 2012 8:59am

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PO Box 12270, Thorndon, Wellington 6144

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