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November 15, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 15 November 2012

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graham

Whaleoil has the headline of the day (well actually the headline of yesterday):

Buses More Environmentally Damaging Than Cars

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2012/11/buses-more-enviornmentally-damaging-than-cars/

It has to be said, the data he uses is not NZ based, but still it does raise something I’ve often thought about. Has anyone actually done a serious indepth study comparing buses and cars side-by-side? Looking at data such as the typical occupancy of buses compared to cars, the extra distance travelled by buses as they cannot take the most direct route from point A to point B, the time spent by buses idling at stops, being driven to and from depots, etc?
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November 15, 2012 8:00am
Pete George

After a Standard onslaught directed at Labour Party leadership David Shearer simply dismissed it as ‘nonsense’. There was serious angst expressed at being ignored by people who wanted their opinions to be taken seriously – but maybe a mostly anonymous blog can’t expect any better.

Why should David Shearer and other MPs take The Standard seriously, when there is serious doubt over much of what is said there?

You can choose to be anonymous if you like. But those who choose not to be identified have to accept that targets of your opinions can choose to not take you seriously.

And if a blog as a whole like The Standard chooses anonymity as a principle of it’s operation, and supports and protects anonymous personal and political attacks, then it has to accept that that seriously diminishes it’s credibility as a serious political force.

Shearer called The Standard on it’s nonsense and The Standard hasn’t really got a leg to stand on – for all anyone knows it might just be a machine.

This is The Standard’s credibility problem.
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November 15, 2012 8:04am
barry

A very interesting short interview on late night SKY News last night. On the 10 or 10.30 slot the guy running the section had on as a guest the boss (director, CEO, ??) of the Republican Australia movement. Newly appointed.

He admitted that the Republican movement in Ausy had been getting it wrong on most counts.
The ‘Playing the man (or woman)’ approach was negative, the “anti the UK’ approach was wrong and the voting options they had in the last vote on the subject were wrong.

He was disarmingly frank about the mistakes they had made. Basically if there is going to be a move to a republic then it has to be POSITIVE and about AUSTRALIA.
Calling Charles ‘Bigs Ears’ and saying that ‘it will all change when the Queen dies’ were/are just so wrong. Going Republican because you don’t like the UK Royalty are the totally wrong reasons to change.

And – he added – we have to take up the reasons and options that the Australian public want – otherwise it will never get off the ground.
What he was saying here is that if the public don’t want to leave it in the hands of the parliament – then unless we listen to that , we will never get a republic. I think he was saying/admitting that it wasn’t going to fly if the MPs were going to appoint the Head of State.

My own opinion is that the great advantage of the royal family is that the MPs ARE NOT involved in their appointment, and the institution of the Queen being HOS actually works pretty damned well – and most people – republican or royalist – actually know this.

To me its much like the Clark governments approach to the Privy Council. It was dropped because it was based in the UK – the very wrong reason to do so. It wasn’t dropped because we have a better system here (which we now know that we very surely don’t)
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November 15, 2012 8:06am
graham

Pete, even though much of what is written at The Standard is anonymous, I don’t think it can be dismissed as being irrelevant to Shearer.

From what you have said, there has been a lot of momentum on The Standard among the anti-Shearer movement, and this includes those authors who have chosen to reveal themselves. From your reports, the strong feeling among the majority of people there is “Get rid of Shearer”. Be they anonymous or not, these feelings cannot be ignored. In fact, I would say the anonymous people should be taken more seriously – they have no facade to maintain, no public image to worry about, so can say what they like.

Naturally Shearer will dismiss it, but then he has to. After all, he’s hardly going to publicly say, “Yes, the rumours are true, there is a concerted effort to get rid of me”, now is he?!
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November 15, 2012 8:15am
Elaycee

A big ‘Thumbs Up’ to Israel for striking a blow against terrorism when it was confirmed overnight they had taken out the Hamas terrorist leader Ahmed Jaabari.

The successful airstrike followed a weekend of bloodshed, which saw Israel retaliate to the indiscriminate firing of over 120 rockets over the border into Israel, by killing seven Hamas militants including Jaabari. Yup… no fewer than 120 rockets were lobbed over the border into Israel before there was any retaliation! So a reaction from Israel was inevitable – it was just a case of where and when…

This strike has parallels to the US action that took out Osama Bin Laden… and just like it was with Bin Laden, there will be few tears shed over Jaabari’s ‘departure’….

http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/hit-on-hamas-chief-has-opened-gates-of-hell-1.1105239
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November 15, 2012 8:23am
Reid

Elaycee the most germane fact about this strike was the very last sentence in the Herald’s repeater report:

Israel’s last major operation in Gaza began at the end of December 2008, just six weeks shy of general elections, when troops embarked on a 22-day campaign which led to the deaths of 1400 Palestinians – half of them civilians – and 13 Israelis, 10 of them soldiers.

And then of course earlier there’s this:

Following the strike that killed Jaabari and his bodyguard, Israel pounded the strip with more than 20 others, killing another five people, two of them children, and wounding at least 45, Hamas health ministry spokesman Ashraf al-Qudra said.

And of course the next election is coming in January. Only in Israel, could politicians kill babies for election purposes, and expect an uptick in the polls. Plus get a whole lot of useful idiots around the world thinking it really is all because of those nasty wockets and the election has nothing to do with it. How gullible can you possibly be?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10847521
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November 15, 2012 8:30am
Lance

What Elaycee said

Thats not 1 rocket, or 2 rockets, or 10 rockets (with big fucking explosive warheads) but 120!!!!!!!!!

So next comes the headlines, “Israel attacks without provocation”
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November 15, 2012 8:31am
David Garrett

Forget about some Palestinian terrorist…let’s have some thoughtful ideas on just what we do to prevent ongoing tragedies like the short and horrid life of JJ Lawrence…In the next days and weeks there is going to be lots of comment on how awful it is, how awful the participants actually are, some will even take a deep breath and make the point that if JJ had survived, in all likelihood he would have become just like the mongrel who killed him.

But all of that is just agonized hand wringing. What are we going to DO about it? Ideas people….
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November 15, 2012 8:33am
Lance

And just to quantify that explosive warhead.
A Katusha rocket (as favoured by the murderous terrorists) hit the Kibbutz I stayed at and made a hole 2.5M deep and 7M wide.
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November 15, 2012 8:35am
Griff

To have a persona that does not represent one person is distasteful As is politicians blogging anonymously.
Of course I get a free pass 😆
As an anonymous poster you bring no prior baggage or weight to your name. You sink or swim of the quality of your posts.
There is room in blogging for both approaches. The fact that the standard relies on more anonymous sources is a reflection of the level of honesty around their politicians standpoints.
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November 15, 2012 8:41am
iMP

Latest on the Petraeus, Benghazi scandal and Prez Obama’s news conference (1st in 8 months) which has just concluded 8.30am.

http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/1st-obama-press-conf-in-8-months/
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November 15, 2012 8:47am
Keeping Stock

I make no excuses and apologies whatsoever for my thoughts on the death of JJ Lawrence, the culpability of his mother, and the arse-about-face way that some people in New Zealand view civil liberties…

http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/no-excuses-for-child-abuse-life-and.html
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November 15, 2012 8:47am
Reid

What are we going to DO about it?

Same as my solution for poverty David. Nothing is going to change unless we drop the attitude that targeting people is wrong.

As I said yesterday, Loffley had certain personality traits that most of us could tick off on our fingers. This means if he was in a database JJ could have been picked up as a ‘child at risk’ and managed accordingly, in a perfect world.

This means of course we have to have a database of the personality profiles of all people who are in a certain group and you could develop those traits by analysis of the traits of people who’ve done this in the past. You’d probably end up with things like:
Welfare recipient – whole household on welfare
Poor education
Criminal record with violence involved
Partner is not the natural father
Mother has multiple children to different partners
etc

Once you’ve got that potential pool you can then break the doors down and make them, not ask them but make them, undertake education or counselling or whatever, lest they lose their benefit check.

But this would involve targeting lots of people who wouldn’t do this despite having those traits and would involve treating those people in a different way to others on welfare and would involve legislation so data-matching could be done across Justice-DSW-Corrections-Police. None of this would be acceptable to lefties who would wring their hands and rend their clothes at the humanitarian twagedy but its the only practical thing that would make a difference, over time.
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November 15, 2012 8:51am
Pete George

Pete, even though much of what is written at The Standard is anonymous, I don’t think it can be dismissed as being irrelevant to Shearer.

I’m not saying it’s irrelevant and it shouldn’t be ignored – and I’m sure Shearer’s staff are keeping a close watch on The Standard, or they should be. But being mostly anonymous makes it easy to dismiss publicly.

Another point – being anonymous in a blog community dosn’t matter (if conduct is reasonable) – over time you get to know people even if you don’t know their names.

But The Standard wants to be seen as an important political voice, but being mostly anonymous makes it much harder to be seen as credible in the wider media world and to the general public.

Those who have no idea about the blog personas will tend to believe David Shearer’s word over the perceived rants of @cillysunt.
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November 15, 2012 8:54am
flipper

DPF…. Your favourite little boy, and the US branch President of the Flat Earth Society was at it again, a few minutes ago.

Even from 9000 miles away it is impossible to miss and dismiss Obama’s lies at his first Press Cionference in eight (8) months.

He told two whoppers this morning (NZ Time) on “climate change”, claiming there is incontrovertible evidence (the temp has actually dropped) that the world temperature is rising rapidly and that the polar ice caps are melting (rubbish….and, on problems in relation to sea levels, try the ice in the glass test) at much higher rate. There were more, but at least (on matters climate) he had the good grace to state that he would not pursue his climate agenda at the cost of jobs and the US economy.

AND in relation to his economy, it is long past time that the US, which produces about 25 Per cent of the world’s GDP, faced up to the fact that they have elected yet another economic lemon. Good luck when they arrive at the cliff’s edge.
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November 15, 2012 8:54am
The Scorned

Make having kids while dependent on the state as unattractive as possible….period.
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November 15, 2012 8:59am
Manolo

Long live the Jewish State.
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November 15, 2012 8:59am
Manolo

The source of all lies and obfuscation on Benghazi: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-i-made-susan-rice-talk-american-people-about-benghazi_663353.html
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November 15, 2012 9:02am
The Scorned

To throw the Pre-menstrual cat in amongst the Quaker pigeons….. David Garrett…….how about a “stolen Generation” similar to what happened in Aussie and take the kids off the buggers? Did anyone ever do a study on how those Abo kids actually turned out compared to ones left in the care of their own parents…?
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November 15, 2012 9:03am
kowtow

The death of JJ. We tolerate a “progressive” society,one which opposes socially conservative ideals. Ideals that ensured these tragedies were rarities. Today these events are almost commonplace. “Progressive” values are destructive.

Another Arab terrorist sent to hell. Congratulations to the Israeli military.
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November 15, 2012 9:04am
David Garrett

Reid: Yes, I agree with most of that. Those risk factors you list – particularly children to multiple fathers – are spot on. In my view what happened in JJ’s case is simply that the dominant male for the time being killed the spawn of the last one. All the child was for him was annoying evidence that someone else had formerly possessed “his” chattel. For this sort of sad silly woman, that cycle is going to continue until menopause unless the state intervenes. For the male, it will continue potentially until they die, if they are not in jail.

But the REAL problem as you say is the lack of political will to actually grasp the bull by the horns – a particularly apt metaphor – and make drastic changes to “the system.” I cant see this lot doing that….and certainly not the socialists.

Scorned: Now there’s a thought…
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November 15, 2012 9:07am
James Stephenson

@DG – for my money, you were absolutely right with regard to incentivising sterilisation. Currently the benefit system incentivises having children as a meal-ticket, children who are then resented by their mothers for the crimp they put in their social lives and doomed to a (frequently short) unpleasant life as a SOCK* to a succession of feral tomcats that shack up with the mother to take advantage of her child-entitled dwelling.

*Some other c-‘s kid (HT Whaleoil I think)
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November 15, 2012 9:08am
Luc Hansen

So next comes the headlines, “Israel attacks without provocation”

Hmmm…dispossession, regular bouts of murderous onslaughts, thousands imprisoned either without charges or trumped up charges, military occupation, blockade, and daily raids resulting in a continuous wave of Palestinians.

Nuh, no provocation. Of course not.

Manolo (8,164) Says:
November 15th, 2012 at 8:59 am

Long live the Jewish State.

It would be interesting to use Nate Silver’s model on that forlorn fantasy!
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November 15, 2012 9:12am
Mark

So your answer to getting a change in policy is to appoint inept service providers and then say that to fix the problem we will put on a policy we really wanted in the first place.

I am a school trustee and if bulk funding comes in I’m gone as the liability profile increases significantly and that is a totally unreasonable expectation on unpaid trustees. So build into the economic model a significant increase in governance costs and then see how it works.

Who will help the decile 1 and 2 school boards who are not comprised of people used to running business operations.

Bulk funding is great in theory but will not be such a simple exercise in practice.
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November 15, 2012 9:13am
graham

Pete: I don’t think The Standard is any different to most blogs as far as being credible to the wider media and to the general public. The media tend to judge blogs mostly on whether they are run by high-profile bloggers (such as DPF and Cameron Slater), OR how big the readership is and how many comments they get. In this respect, The Standard would be on a similar footing to Kiwiblog.

And as for the general public? I think the vast majority of them wouldn’t have a clue about Kiwiblog, The Standard, Public Address, Red Alert, or any of the other blogs.

By the way … did you really mean to say that people will believe a politician’s word over anybody else’s? 🙂
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November 15, 2012 9:13am
Lance

@flipper
I will probably regret this as I think you have a closed mind.
But the melting poles are extremely serious because the bulk of the ice is not in the water, it is k/m’s deep on the land, and there is a shit load of land in Antarctica. If this melts it will flood the oceans and cause sea levels to rise by many metres.
How fast, the cause and to what extent is another matter but to say something like ice melting in water doesn’t present a problem is a very very silly thing to say.
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November 15, 2012 9:15am
Reid

Now this is dedication to the conservative cause. We’re all just rank amateurs by comparison:

(CBS) – Holly Solomon, a pregnant Arizona woman, was arrested Saturday after she allegedly ran over her husband with the family SUV when she learned that he did not vote in the presidential election, CBS affiliate KPHO reports…

Sanger said Solomon argued with her husband over his lack of political involvement and that she believed her family would suffer under a second term of President Barack Obama, KPHO reported.

Police said witnesses heard yelling and saw Solomon get behind the wheel and chase her husband through the parking lot.

“At one point he went behind a light pole so the vehicle wouldn’t strike him. He ended up leaving the light pole trying to run away to a different area,” Sanger said.
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November 15, 2012 9:16am
krazykiwi

Hilarious: George Bush accidentally votes for Obama 🙂 🙂 🙂
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November 15, 2012 9:17am
joana

DG
Various members on JJ ‘s mother’s family reported the situation to CYFS..after his arm had been broken twice and just generally expressing concern for him..What action did CYFS take?? ..In my experience of contacting them re two situations they took no action whatsoever other than in one case interviewing and believing the lies of the abuser..People feel they have done the right thing in contacting them..It is not easy to do it with your own relations..What about health officials being concerned about his previous injures? I am not trying to spread the blame but these officials are paid to act so again what did they do?
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November 15, 2012 9:22am
thedavincimode

Mark, another perfectly reasonable perspective (mine actually) is that anyone not up ,to the task of prioritising and allocating expenditure under a bulk finding model shouldn’t put themselves forward as a trustee. Perhaps you should move on.

There are two issues here. One is empowering parents at the community level to do the best for their kids. The other is the capacity of local parents to step up to the responsibilities as trustees. Criticising the model because in some instances local parents may not have the skills to fulfill the trustee role isn’t a good argument for centralising remote decision-making in Wellington and/or further empowering the teachers’ union by disempowering the community model.
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November 15, 2012 9:24am
David Garrett

Joana: I don’t doubt for a moment that CYFS employees are part of the problem…the whole system needs looking at closely…the Aussies have just announced a Royal Commission into child abuse by the Catholic clergy…why cant we set one up to examine all the brutal killings of small children in the last 20 years – sadly that is not a small sample – identify the factors common to all of them, and then actually DO SOMETHING to alter the those factors?

For me that is a good use of taxpayer dollars…
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November 15, 2012 9:32am
Elaycee

Luc’s latest brainfart in support of the terrorist outfit Hamas:

Nuh, no provocation. Of course not.

Try to stop being a total moron for once, Luc – in these latest terrorist attacks, Hamas lobbed 120 missiles over the border into the sovereign state of Israel before Israel retaliated. The only surprise for any thinking person is that Israel waited for a further 119 after the first one hit, before they retaliated and took out the head of the snake…

I doubt Israel would wait so long again if / when Hamas commits more acts of terrorism. 😀
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November 15, 2012 9:33am
Pete George

graham – DPF and Cameron Slater are given coverage because they are known identities. It should be impossible for ‘Eddie’ or ‘James Henderson’ to be included in radio spots or interviewed and quoted in newspapers and on TV because no one knows who they are.

By the way … did you really mean to say that people will believe a politician’s word over anybody else’s?

I didn’t say they will, but many people do believe politicians, and they are more likely to listen to and accept the words of a party leader over a random blog @cillysunt or two – don’t you think?
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November 15, 2012 9:35am
Falafulu Fisi

The following may be of interest to some readers here:

Statistical Physics is for the Birds

I’ve often watched a flock of birds (whenever I see one) displaying all those amazing dynamics yet the whole is still in order. The implication of such dynamics has been observed in other domains, such as financial markets, wars & insurgency, and many others.
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November 15, 2012 9:41am
ex-golfer

@ DG
Unfortunately nothing will be done about this issue until it is taken out of the political area and all parties have a non-partisan approach to it. Can I see that happening? No.
This issue is used as a political football – and every case results in more and more hand wringing.
Some hard calls need to be made – and some people (I hesitate to name names) need to pull their racist heads out of the sand and look at the statistics!
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November 15, 2012 9:49am
Ed Snack

Elaycee, the war-crime of bombarding civilians at random has the side effect of killing (in Israel) Jews, that isn’t a bug for Luc, it’s the prime feature ! I like the dispossession meme too, in the 1947-8 war, there was a mass of dispossession in the region, guess the relative numbers of Jewish and Arab dispossessed. And guess the ration of Arabs who remained in and still live in Israel to the number of Jews who remained in and still live (safely !) in the entire surrounding region. There’s racism and a form of apartheid going on alright, just it’s not what Luc fantasizes that it is. Anti-semitism remains the one acceptable form of racism to the left.
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November 15, 2012 9:50am
wf

What happened to the old saying that ‘ the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world’?

IMO the mothers of these children have abandoned their responsibility to protect their offspring and they are as much to blame for their child’s abuse/death as the male who actually causes it.

Single women who have a baby should get an allowance for that child, but absolutely no further payments. Women who have multiple children without a stable relationship should not have any further increase in their allowances until they have got themselves sterilized. Children should be summarily removed if abuse or careless neglect is reported.

Tough? So tell me, how long do you want to allow careless fertile women and irresponsible men to breed children that they don’t care two hoots about? For how long do you want to lament the latest horror story?

If Paula Bennett issued a decree along the lines above, I’d whole-heartedly approve.
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November 15, 2012 9:56am
flipper

Lance @ 9.15…
Enjoyed your Reserve Bank post. But you are only half right on ice et al. In so far the ther AGW/CC/IPCC crap, yes my mind in almost closed, simply as a defence mechanism to filter out the lies, damned lies and the warmust religous beliefs (to paraphrase), so I trust you will find what is set out below helpful.

This from R.C.E. Wyndham’s “Layman’s Guide to Climate Change”, Jan 2012:

“: … • Melting ice caps.
Greenland (about 4% of total land based ice) has been getting around an extra 20 inches (50 cms) of snow per annum for at least the last decade. Ditto Antarctica (90%) – in 2007 sea ice was the most extensive since records began, and latest measurements show this to be continuing. In 2009 Mann attempted a fanciful reconstruction of Antarctic temperatures, which showed warming. It was so patently concocted and inept that even fellow AGW proponents immediately disavowed it. As to Greenland, even the IPCC itself has acknowledged that it would take millennia at prevailing temperatures 5ºC greater than today to melt even half the ice sheet. The vastness of the East Antarctic ice shelf, as well as most of the West, is estimated to be getting colder at about 0.8C per decade.
• Arctic sea ice.
Arctic sea ice cover naturally waxes and wanes. It is currently at its most extensive for many years.
• North West passage.
Ice melted in summer 2007 due to unusually strong ENSO (El Nino Southern Oscillation) effects. The phenomenon is not unique or even that unusual. Amundsen negotiated the NW Passage by ship in 1906, and it was open for a whole season in the 30s. In 2009, with the manifest intention of misleading laymen, in particular, into confusing it with the more celebrated and notorious NW passage, much was made by AGW protagonists of the opening of the NE shipping route across the top of Russia. The “NE Passage”, let us call it, is routinely open to shipping during the summer months.
• Icebergs.
Icebergs break off when glaciers reach the sea. It’s a natural process. For localised reasons, including some evidence of submarine volcanism, there has been peripheral melting in the Antarctic Peninsula. The peninsula accounts for a bare 2% of a continental landmass 1½ times the area of the USA. ….”
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November 15, 2012 9:57am
Longknives

“What are we going to DO about it?”

Quite simple- We stop paying uneducated dropkicks to breed like flies….

Next question?
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November 15, 2012 9:57am
ChardonnayGuy

Not all the left, Ed. I have grave misgivings about redwashing the ghastly human rights and civil liberties records of Israel’s Arab neighbours, or Iran, for that matter. Apart from Lebanon and Jordan, most of them are either military dictatorships or absolutist monarchies or extremist quasi-theocracies. As a gay man, am I supposed to forget Hamas and Hezbollah’s deplorable record of homophobic assault and intimidation, which forces many lesbian and gay Palestinians to flee across the border into Israel? Or the fact that Iran persecuted Bahais and executes lesbians and gay men? I may not like the IDF’s carelessness when it comes to collateral damage against Palestinian bystanders or civilians in pursuit of Hamas and Hezbollah, but neither of the latter are particular credit to either Sunni or Shia Islam respectively.
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November 15, 2012 9:58am
Lance

@FLIPPER
I was pointing out the threat (real or imagined) is not the sea ice, it’s the land ice.
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November 15, 2012 10:03am
Elaycee

@Ed Snack:

Anti-semitism remains the one acceptable form of racism to the left.

Agree. Some people cannot get it into their skulls that Israel is a sovereign state and as such, is totally within its rights to defend itself against acts of terrorism on it’s land / it’s cities and most important: it’s people.

Hamas is simply a terrorist outfit. And one day, Israel will quite possibly decide “Enough is enough” / there will be a series of surgical bangs and Hamas will be dust. This outcome will be self inflicted by Hamas – merely delivered by Israel.
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November 15, 2012 10:06am
ChardonnayGuy

I agree with you about Hamas, although Hezbollah is just as bad, Elaycee. And don’t forget the latter’s connections to Assad’s murderous Syrian regime and interference in Lebanese domestic politics.
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November 15, 2012 10:08am
CharlieBrown

I thought banning smacking was meant to help stop child abuse. I wonder if John Key will grow a spine and remove the anti-smacking law if cases such as JJ lawrences murder. Afterall he did say the “smacking law will only change if proven ineffective “, but he is an ineffective, lieing C*nt so I don’t have high hopes he will follow through.
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November 15, 2012 10:10am
David Garrett

ex golfer: Why not name names? You are using a pseud; you can say what you like. If they are the usual suspects I doubt DPF will mind.

wf: Spot on. Bennett is probably the only poli – excepting Judith Collins perhaps – who might actually put such radical proposals on the table. Somehow I can’t see the rest of the [insert chosen description] in the current cabinet supporting her.
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November 15, 2012 10:17am
ChardonnayGuy

Uh, except the morons who batter, abuse and kill children were all brought up under the pre-repeal Section 59 and its ridiculously elastic definition of parental ‘reasonable force.’ Reminds me, whatever did happen to that stupid fundie woman who tied her teenage son down and had at him with a riding crop?
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November 15, 2012 10:19am
Longknives

Thank heavens Sue Bradford has stopped all the child abuse…
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November 15, 2012 10:24am
Redbaiter

“Reminds me, whatever did happen to that stupid fundie woman who tied her teenage son down and had at him with a riding crop?”

You’re quite clearly salivating over that mental image.
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November 15, 2012 10:24am
flipper

Elaycee…
Quite agree.
Obama better make good on his promise to stop the Iranian lunatics. Israel will NOT wait around.
Iraq Mark II (in whatever form works on Iran) will be on its way before their bomb is finished.
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November 15, 2012 10:28am
David Garrett

Chardonnay Guy: So were all of us who DONT abuse our children….

It won’t surprise many that Bradford was very selective about how much of the story to tell in the cases she cited…for example in one involving a woman hitting her son with a riding crop ( no tying down of said son) our Sue didnt bother to mention that: 1) the son had a piece of pipe in his hand at the time, and was about to hit his mother with it; and 2) He had hit her with various objects before.
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November 15, 2012 10:30am
flipper

@ Lance..
The ice issues set out above refer to and cover both sea and land based ice.
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November 15, 2012 10:32am
Pete George

Dim-Post uses Gunning-Fog to Gunning-Fog to AAARRGGGGGH over Hekia Parata’s language: Education Minister translated redux

And Imperator Fish does his own version of A Statement From Hekia Parata.

Both are well worth trying to read.

Sad, but the Minister of Education is deservedly earning a reputation as Hekiaaarrgggggh Paraaarrgggggha.
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November 15, 2012 10:33am
graham

@ Pete George at 9:35 am.

DPF and Cameron Slater are given coverage because they are known identities, true. But similarly, The Standard is given coverage as a large well-known left-leaning blog. ‘Eddie’ may not be interviewed, but what he/she/it writes is quoted in newspapers occasionally. The Standard is referred to by politicians, linked to on various other blogs and news sites, and referred to by newspapers.

But the general public doesn’t read The Standard. They don’t know all the nuances and subtleties of what’s going on behind the scenes. They don’t have the background. All the general public knows is that the media is quoting a “well-known left-leaning blog site” as calling for Shearer to resign.

So quite honestly, I think the general public will believe all the rumblings in newspapers over and above David Shearer’s attempts to downplay the leadership issues.
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November 15, 2012 10:36am
calendar girl

joana @ 9:22 – Good comment. Based on media reports – see: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7951644/CYF-tried-to-help-JJ-in-weeks-before-murder – the performance of CYFS in JJ’s context was tardy, bureaucratic and therefore unacceptable. The agency appears to have failed to accord sufficient urgency or importance to information received from a close relative who appeared to take significant personal risk in bring JJ’s situation to its notice a month before the toddler’s murder.

DG @ 9:32 – With two provisos, I agree with your useful suggestion of a Royal Commission or similar to examine NZ’s shameful level of serious criminal violence against young children. One proviso, that the Commission’s terms of reference separate the “bashing and homicide” issues from paedophilia activity, usually a quite different issue with its own drivers that could sidetrack or water down the Commission’s intended work and ultimate findings. Proviso two, that the Commission’s terms of reference include specifically the principles, practices and performance outcomes of CYFS in identifying children at risk and in following up warnings or relevant information received from members of families or the general public.
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November 15, 2012 10:38am
David Garrett

CG: I agree with your two provisos. Righto, let’s both go and see Paula then! Seriously though, if enough people write to Key you never know…Polis DO keep a close on what “the people” are saying…One of Key’s staff will have monitoring this and other blogs as among his or her functions…But some good stuff on blogs wont do it.

If you write to a MINISTER (as opposed to a mere MP) you must get a considered reply…the Minister won’t have written it, and probably not even read it, but a letter from a Minister can be a very valuable thing to have….
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November 15, 2012 10:51am
krazykiwi

Any peak oil doomsday cultists still about?

An American oil find that hold more than all of OPEC

Drillers in Utah and Colorado are poking into a massive shale deposit trying to find a way to unlock oil reserves that are so vast they would swamp OPEC. The amount of oil recoverable is estimated to be 3 trillion barrels – three times more that the whole world has consumed in the past 100 years.

Excellent news. I hope they succeed. Cheap, abundant energy is what’s lifted us out of the stone age.
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November 15, 2012 10:59am
Kea

krazykiwi , poor Griff will be gutted 😉

I think we should form a support group for him.
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November 15, 2012 11:01am
nasska

Kea

Griff is at least sane & should pull through okay with minimum counselling.

What about Luc?
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November 15, 2012 11:39am
Manolo

The Messiah passing the buck and still denying it: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/11/14/obama-holds-post-election-press-conference/?intcmp=trending
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November 15, 2012 11:43am
Luc Hansen

I’m fine, thanks nasska.

It’s not of great concern. It won’t happen.
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November 15, 2012 11:43am
Lance

@krazykiwi
“Cheap, abundant energy is what’s lifted us out of the stone age.”

I am sure there are some Taniwha’s that disagree with that.
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November 15, 2012 11:45am
krazykiwi

A TwentyEightGate quote from BishopHill

We now know that the BBC decided to abandon balance in its coverage of climate on the advice of a small coterie of green activists, including the campaign director of Greenpeace. This shows that the “shoddy journalism” of Newsnight’s recent smear was no “lapse” of standards at all. BBC news programs have for years been poorly checked recitations of the work of activists.
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November 15, 2012 11:50am
Luc Hansen

flipper and Lance

You should get this info collated into an article and published in a credible peer reviewed journal – Nature? – and order your plane tickets to collect your Nobels.
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November 15, 2012 11:50am
Lance

@Luc
WTF are you burbling on about now?
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November 15, 2012 11:52am
Luc Hansen

Why am I not surprised to see Ed Snack pop up. Hasbara alert from Tel Aviv?

I like the dispossession meme too, in the 1947-8 war, there was a mass of dispossession in the region, guess the relative numbers of Jewish and Arab dispossessed.

That’s conflating two episodes, the one causative of the other, and the other, the expulsion of Jews from Arab states, does not excuse the first. I support the right of Israel’s Jews to seek compensation from those states, but that’s where it gets a bit murky because Israel itself is accused of playing a hand in those expulsions.

There’s racism and a form of apartheid going on alright…

and worse.

Anti-semitism remains the one acceptable form of racism to the left.

Yes, like all others who find the facts not supportive of their case, you take refuge in slurs.
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November 15, 2012 12:00pm
krazykiwi

Lance – Luc’s saying that his opinions represent fact, while credibility of any position that’s unsupportive of his own must come from a scientist by way of a peer reviewed paper published in a journal of Luc’s choosing. It’s how the CAGW doomsdayers roll.
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November 15, 2012 12:03pm
Luc Hansen

Lance, sea ice matters a great deal because of the temperature feedback from less sun being reflected. It’s two sides of the same coin, sea ice and land ice. And yes, sorry, I just saw flipper invoking your name and didn’t check out your original post – distracted by four year old!
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November 15, 2012 12:04pm
RRM

Whanau Ora – give maori families, organisations truck loads of money, maybe something wonderful will happen?

Nah bro…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7954204/Whanau-Ora-money-used-by-gang
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November 15, 2012 12:06pm
Luc Hansen

KK

Another fact-free post from someone who gets his science from WUWT.
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November 15, 2012 12:07pm
RightNow

Israel are simply applying the precautionary principle.
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November 15, 2012 12:13pm
Luc Hansen

From Haretz on Israel’s wars as elections loom:

This recipe is familiar from 1955, when David Ben-Gurion returned from his exile in Sde Boker and led the Israel Defense Forces to a retaliatory action in Gaza, and his party, Mapai, to victory in the election. (Barak recalled this period with nostalgia, when he spoke last week at a memorial for Moshe Dayan). Ever since, whenever the ruling party feels threatened at the ballot box, it puts its finger on the trigger. The examples are common knowledge: the launch of the Shavit 2 missile in the summer of 1961, in the midst of the Lavon affair; the bombing of the Iraqi reactor in 1981; Operation Grapes of Wrath in Lebanon in 1996, and Operation Cast Lead in Gaza on the eve of the 2009 election. In the two latter cases, the military action turned into a defeat in the election.

There is a disagreement among historians as to whether it is necessary to add the Yom Kippur War to the list. In that conflict, which broke out on the eve of the 1973 election, the Arabs fired first, but their decision to go to war was taken in the context of the increasingly extreme position of Prime Minister Golda Meir’s government ¬ which had refused Egyptian President Anwar Sadat’s peace offer and declared an expansion of Israeli settlements in Sinai.

This, for example, is the opinion of researchers Prof. Motti Golani and Shoshana Ishoni-Barri.

The current operation, Pillar of Cloud, belongs in the same category. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is interested in neutralizing every possible rival, and Defense Minister Ehud Barak is fighting for enough votes to return to the Knesset. A war against Hamas will wipe out the electoral aspirations of the ditherer, Ehud Olmert, whose disciples expected him to announce his candidacy this evening ¬ and it will kick off the agenda the “social and economic issue” that serves the Labor Party headed by MK Shelly Yacimovich.

When the cannons roar, we see only Netanyahu and Barak on the screen, and all the other politicians have to applaud them.

And Aluf Benn asserts that Jabani was Israel’s subcontractor in charge of shutting down rocket attacks from the minor resistance groups on Israel’s southern border. I guess he didn’t know that his death would be Israel’s preferred method of terminating the contract for non-performance.
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November 15, 2012 12:15pm
Kea

Kea

Griff is at least sane & should pull through okay with minimum counselling.

What about Luc?

I worry about our fatalistic friend Griff. I just want to hug him and tell him “it’s going to be ok”.

Luc is like many of the far left, disconnected from his fellow humans, so he sees them as a potential threat. He does not get any hugs ! 🙂
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November 15, 2012 12:18pm
hinamanu

Social media addicts….nice satire

http://www.brasschecktv.com/videos/in-humor-truth-1/social-media-addicts-ignore-the-ad.html
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November 15, 2012 12:24pm
hinamanu

The election great fraud of 2004

UNCOUNTED shows how the election fraud that changed the outcome of the 2004 election led to even greater fraud in 2006 – and now looms as an unbridled threat to the outcome of the 2008 election. This controversial feature length film by Emmy award-winning director David Earnhardt examines in factual, logical, and yet startling terms how easy it is to change election outcomes and undermine election integrity across the U.S. Noted computer programmers, statisticians, journalists, and experienced election officials provide the irrefutable proof.

UNCOUNTED shares well documented stories about the spine-chilling disregard for the right to vote in America. In Florida, computer programmer Clint Curtis is directed by his boss to create software that will “flip” votes from one candidate to another. In Utah, County Clerk Bruce Funk is locked out of his office for raising questions about security flaws in electronic voting machines. Californian Steve Heller gets convicted of a felony after he leaks secret documents detailing illegal activities committed by a major voting machine company. And Tennessee entrepreneur, Athan Gibbs, finds verifiable voting a hard sell in America and dies before his dream of honest elections can be realized.

http://www.uncountedthemovie.com
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November 15, 2012 12:39pm
liarbors a joke

Whanau ora…yet another rort paid for by the long suffering taxpayer.

Thanks Key..youre a waste of space.
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November 15, 2012 12:41pm
Longknives

Who would have predicted that Whanau Ora would turn out to be a massive fraud??
Oh wait- We all did.
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November 15, 2012 1:00pm
hinamanu

A friends comment on Facebook

Manny Gypsy Vargas
Proof is in the pudding, all you people who voted for Obama heres the facts, we are about to go into a serious depression, Fiscal cliff is coming this guy has done absolutely nothing to stimulate private sector business, in one part alot of people voted for the guy cause they don’t know how business really works and most people are not self employed or feel victomized by the Republican party members like Cheney and Bush, and i don’t blame you for that but now we are heading into more unnecessary taxes tax hikes and bills on all levels, on the state level we are about to run into more bullshit and taxes, cap and trade does not work it was tried already in several other countries it does not lower pollution just raises product prices on the consumer level, you think a box of cereal at 5-6 bucks is expensive now its gonna go up to 10+ and this is going to cause a economic stagnation. People being supported by programs cause they cannot find work ar
e going to drain government from the back end and nobody can do a thing. This is going to be a disaster. Obama is now talking about protecting parties accountable for the death of the U.N. ambassador and others during the protest overseas. He has no say in that matter and its up to the people of the united states and a thorough investigation to determine that. Government official in either party cannot make up their own laws and rules and walk all over our founding principals. Thats what dictatorships do. The media is out trying to make Trump look crazy but do you think the man would be where he is if he was stupid, the guy comes from a lower middle class background. Theres also this myth that Obama comes from a middle class family and this is not so, he comes from an aristocratic upper class family. I think we should focus on whats at hand and the republican party needs to drop this stupid notion of religion and abortion and concentrate on economic issues because that is the real problem and the democrats need to stop the 2 face lies and media scams. We really need another independent grassroots party thats sole concentration is opening up our country for free enterprise, less government where more watchdogs to keep peoples hand out of the cookie jar like that $56 million that government officials just got caught hiding, get rid of the czars and have accountable offices and hold these peoples wrong accountable with real punishments. WE THE PEOPLE need to go back to the basics and get rid of corruption, these people are PUBLIC SERVANTS and thats exactly what the should be doing instead of serving themselves to your hard earned cash. You don’t work for free now do you. Just think about this next time you hear about one of these guys golfing.
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November 15, 2012 1:00pm
liarbors a joke

one rort after another after another…whanau ora, treaty gravy train, is it any wonder people are running away to Aussie.
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November 15, 2012 1:03pm
Paulus

Pleased to see Helen Clark in New Zealand meeting behind closed doors with some senior Labour MPs – presumably to advise them what to do and agree to at the Labour Party conference at the weekend.
No doubt she has made her KEYnote speech behind doors on what she wants done, and will now return to the corrupt UN where she is well suited.
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November 15, 2012 1:24pm
KevinH

@hinamanu
I don’t know how big the rock is that your hiding under but for your benefit Obama bailed the banks out with billions to prevent a crash and invested heavily into industry to keep jobs. Also the printing presses having been running hot to keep the US economy fluid.
There is only so much Obama can do, now is the time for the captains of industry and commerce to stand up and take some responsibilty.
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November 15, 2012 1:43pm
Fletch

Man kills himself after Obama wins election.

A Key West man who told his partner that “if Barack gets re-elected, I’m not going to be around” was found dead on Nov. 8, with the words “F— Obama!” scrawled on his will and two empty prescription bottles nearby.

Henry Hamilton, 64, owner of Tropical Tan off Duval Street, was “very upset about the election results,” his partner Michael Cossey told Police Officer Anna Dykes.

Police spokeswoman Alyson Crean said a cause of death is awaiting autopsy results from the Monroe County Medical Examiner’s Office but said, “There’s absolutely no evidence of foul play.”

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/11/13/3095844/man-apparently-kills-himself-over.html
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November 15, 2012 1:47pm
Longknives

The biggest story in World Rugby in the moment is the repeated blatant preferential treatment given to the ‘Adi Blacks’ in any judiciary or foul play matter.
Strangely the usually vocal New Zealand sports media haven’t made a peep about this- after howling and screaming for a life ban for the Wallaby who kneed Richie McCaw..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/9679141/Disciplinary-process-to-be-reviewed-after-Adam-Thomson-given-one-week-ban-for-stamping.html

“Thomson’s lenient treatment by a Six Nations committee….. has only antagonised those who claim that All Blacks receive preferential treatment in such cases.”
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November 15, 2012 1:48pm
Longknives

That should fire Bereal up….
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November 15, 2012 1:50pm
Harriet

***** Kids who don’t get sexually asaulted by Catholic Priests go without!

***** The Catholic Church in Australia pays the victims of sexual abuse 10’s of thousands of dollars each along with counciling if needed, no one else or any other organisation that has a history of sexual abuse does that for the victims. NZ would be the same.

***** Why is Israel immune from any praise?

***** Smack your kids hard so that they don’t grow up to spit at police like Sue Bradford does!
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November 15, 2012 2:34pm
Manolo

Harsh words: http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2012/nov/14/graham-obama-i-hold-you-responsible/
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November 15, 2012 2:46pm
David Garrett

Whanau ora…is it te reo for “another rort bro?”

this is what happens when you treat gangs as “just another form of whanau” as that nice Mrs Turia used to say frequently in the House….but never loud enough for the Hansard reporters to hear what she said…
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November 15, 2012 3:11pm
Manolo

Meanwhile in la-la land more protection from ourselves: http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8564791/mp-proposes-sunbed-laser-restrictions
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November 15, 2012 3:42pm
Pete George

The latest Roy Morgan poll is out. A Labour recovery will mean it shouldn’t add to current pressure on David Shearer’s pressure, although National have also bounced back.

National 45.5% (up 2)
Labour 32.5% (up 3.5)
Greens 10.5 (down 2.5)
NZ First 5% (down 2.5%)

This suggests that Labour’s 29% in the last poll was a bit of an outlier and they are now back to a similar level they have been for a few months.

There looks to be movement from Greens and NZ First to National and Labour.

http://yournz.org/2012/11/15/shearer-shouldnt-be-pressured-by-roy-morgan-poll/
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November 15, 2012 4:18pm
Fletch

Harsh words #2:

Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., responded to President Obama’s challenge that he “go after me” over the Benghazi attack by declaring him either incompetent or corrupt and suggesting he is not taking the attack seriously.

“This president — this administration — has either been guilty of colossal incompetence or been engaged in a coverup, neither of which is acceptable to the American people,” McCain said on the Senate floor today. “I speak as a friend of Christopher Stevens, I speak as a person who knows something about warfare, I speak as something of an authority — that this attack could have been prevented if the information on the ground had been taken into consideration.”

McCain called for a congressional Select Committee to investigate the attack and the administration response. “There clearly is a need because there is a huge credibility gap among the American people because of the [contradictory statements about the attacks] beginning with the President of the United States,” McCain said. “What did the president know? When did he know about it? And what did he do about it?”

With that sequence of questions, Obama’s 2008 opponent echoed the question posed by Sen. Sam Baker, R-Tenn., during the Watergate investigation that brought down Richard Nixon.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/mccain-punches-back-at-obama-on-benghazi-youre-incompetent-or-corrupt/article/2513488

The f***** needs to be Watergated.
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November 15, 2012 5:31pm
Reid

I read a report from a WH source that said Obama watched it on TV as it happened, from a drone.

He was watching it with the Defense Secretary.

According to the source’ other agencies like CIA also watched it.

If that’s true and it it leaks, Obama is history.
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November 15, 2012 5:55pm
Fletch

According to some reports, Stevens was really in Benghazi for the reason of gun-walking weapons to Al Qaeda rebels.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/22/the-real-reason-behind-benghazigate/

Obama was arming enemies of the U.S.
This is 100 times worse than Watergate.
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November 15, 2012 6:23pm
Longknives

“The f***** needs to be Watergated.”
“If that’s true and it it leaks, Obama is history”

No chance in hell- Obama is ‘The Messiah’, he can simply do no wrong in the eyes of his glassy-eyed worshippers…..
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November 15, 2012 6:23pm
big bruv

More bullshit from the apologist for Pedophilic priests.

“The attack on the priesthood may turn that around in regards to the attitude of people towards sexual abuse of children”

So once again the evil Lucia Maria is more concerned about an “attack” on her precious Catholic Church than she is about those kids who are the victims of sexual abuse.

One has to ask why her “god” is such a heartless bastard that he would watch over child abuse and do nothing, I can only assume that Lucia’s ‘god’ is also a pedophile.
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November 15, 2012 6:42pm
Fletch

bb, go stick your head in a bucket of ice water and cool off.

You’re putting words in Lucia’s mouth. You know she does not think any such thing.
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November 15, 2012 6:48pm
big bruv

Have a read of her post Fletch. If you bother to open both eyes then you will see that she sees this as an attack on her precious and evil Catholic church.
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November 15, 2012 6:59pm
Reid

Who was behind Savile?

http://www.activistpost.com/2012/11/child-sex-rings-reveal-worst-of-power.html

http://rense.com/general95/savile.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/13/retired-bishop-peter-ball-arrested

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/358081/Former-BBC-DJ-on-indecency-charges

Unfortunately from my own readings over years all of this rings true. Dutreaux and Nihoul from Belgium were merely another. Savile, Dutreaux, Nihoul et al, source children.

How else does one explain the multiple shut-downs of investigations, who has the authority to replace investigators once it appears they’re not going to reach the “correct” conclusions? What role do secret societies play, who belongs to them, what do they swear as part of their oaths? All this I know. It’s all available to those interested with an open mind and a focus on objectivity. Cognitive dissonance and a wish to preserve the way you think you know how the world really works, will block your cognition.

Pure evil.

And blissful, useful idiots; allow it to happen.
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November 15, 2012 7:10pm
nasska

An Arab was being interviewed at a US checkpoint.
“Your name please?”
“Abdul Aziz”
“Sex? ”
“Six times a week!”
“No, no, I mean male or female.”
“Doesn’t matters, sometimes even camel.”
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November 15, 2012 8:02pm
SGA

If you are a football fan, and you haven’t seen the last of Sweden’s Zlatan Ibrahimovic’s four goals against England last night, it’s worth a look. Outrageous and audacious.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/7954209/Master-display-from-Ibrahimovic-guides-Sweden
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November 15, 2012 8:26pm
Steve (North Shore)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7954826/Royal-tour-hits-Manawatu
fucking orsome, some woman took her dog all the way from wfanganui.
wonders never cease
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November 15, 2012 8:30pm
Luc Hansen

Fletch (3,484) Says:
November 15th, 2012 at 6:23 pm
According to some reports…

Nice to be on the same side for once, ay Fletch ol’ mate?

With luck he will be impeached!
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November 15, 2012 8:49pm

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