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October 17, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 17 October 2012

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General Debate

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bereal

By the way,

regarding the Christie Marceau case,
if you were a juror on that case.

You are a fucking disgrace to yourself and to our country, each and every one of
you on that jury is a disgusting sickening disgrace.

The Crown prosecuter is a fucking loser disgrace also.
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October 17, 2012 5:54pm
Kea

My conspiracy theorist mate has sent me these links, as part of his on-going questioning of the legality of NZ law. (He has never been in trouble with the law).

Can someone tell me what this is about; government departments are registered as companies? or is this some sort of mischief?

(Look at the Certificate of Incorporation)

http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/3147032

NZ POLICE LIMITED
http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/3238729
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October 17, 2012 5:56pm
bereal

Of course the biggest disgrace in this whole sordid, sickening, disgusting episode in
New Zealand history is “Judge” McNaughton.

If ‘Judge” McNaughton had done his job Christie may still be alive.
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October 17, 2012 6:02pm
nasska

Jack5

Have to disagree on the death penalty…..NZ justice does not have a proud tradition of ‘getting it right’ every time & the possibility of executing one innocent citizen is enough for me to keep capital punishment off the tariff.

Other than that, effectively excusing the actions of a person suffering from a mental illness has gone too far. If they were genuinely insane at the time it is highly unlikely that they will ever be fully cured. Even if a psychiatrist thinks they no longer present a danger to the public a few months or a few years down the track you can guarantee that without regular medication the illness will reappear. Community care of psychiatric patients is the greatest con ever perpetrated on the NZ electorate & the follow up care needed is simply not there.

In the circumstances, IMHO the person should remain a committed patient in a humane yet secure facility for the rest of their life. The rest of us deserve no less protection.
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October 17, 2012 6:06pm
nasska

Bereal

Re the bail decision. Judge McNaughton’s hands were tied by the law of the land when it came to giving Chand bail. It seems that because of his age & circumstances granting of bail on the initial charge was inevitable. We probably have Dear Leader’s crim loving mates to thank for the legislation.

I have the legal eagles’ opinions on file somewhere. I can hunt it out if you want.
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October 17, 2012 6:12pm
Nookin

So, where does a bankrupt owing a massive damages award get the money to go to USA?
Will we soon see a site denigrating the entire US judiciary?
Will Penny be heading off to US to volunteer as a MacKenzie friend? (Please, please….)
Whatever happened to his last contempt case. Did he go inside?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/7829140/Kiwi-battler-Vince-Siemer-arrested-in-US
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October 17, 2012 6:20pm
bereal

nasska @ 6.06

often you make sense,
this time you have it wrong.

Apply your warped logic then almost everyone who murdered someone must be ‘suffering’ from a
mental illness.

Do you really think that the piece of shit who knifed Christie to death didn’t know what he was doing ?

What is wrong with your last paragraph is that eventually some do gooder physcologist will declare that
he, thay psyciatrist has cured him that he should be released.

You seem to automatically extend an olive branch to the perp in this case.
Not his case, not his problem, he is just sick.

You are the sick one mate.
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October 17, 2012 6:27pm
Nookin

Looks like some of my questions are answered in the report. Wonder how Stiassney feels about getting zilch for his efforts
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October 17, 2012 6:32pm
bereal

nasska
You say the ‘Judges” hands were tied .

What total crap.

If that was the case, why bother having Judges ?

Tell that to Christies parents and friends.

Like i say, often you make sense, not this time.
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October 17, 2012 6:35pm
wat dabney

“If that was the case, why bother having Judges ?”

To apply the law, I’d suggest.
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October 17, 2012 6:38pm
nasska

Bereal

I’m not qualified to tell whether someone is suffering from a particular form of mental illness any more than I’m qualified to diagnose cancer….it is one of those cases where we have to trust the experts. What I wrote was that if someone is judged mentally incompetent then they should stay that way & be kept as a committed patient for the term of their life…..in other words, not freed a couple of months or years later when the government of the day decides to save a few bob on the mental health bill.

No olive branches…if he’s sick, he’s sick & he deserves to be humanely treated. We as the taxpaying public do however, not want him back in society.
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October 17, 2012 6:38pm
Luc Hansen

tom hunter (3,667) Says:
October 17th, 2012 at 12:02 pm

The reason the recession is lingering so long (technically it ended in July 2009) is that the private sector is not investing because they’re terrified of what all this debt and government spending means for the future

Self serving ignorance from my friend – not to mention contradictory: the recession is over but the recession lingers…! Phew! Stand still for a moment, Tom.

Ask the American car industry if they were terrified of the money printed to bail them out of their potentially terminal slide – you know, when Mitt said to let them go broke.

After every round of QE, employment and the share market rose. When the Fed stopped spending money, both fell. I guess according to you this isn’t good enough real world evidence as you prefer your Fantasy Island stuff.

Do yourself a favor and watch today’s talk with Paul Krugman sponsored by the NYT:

http://new.livestream.com/nytimes/PaulKrugman

As for the rest of your ridiculous bile, take your pill, old chum. I lost track of what you were on about ages ago. But it’s very funny imagining the spittle dribbling down your chin while you bang on the keys!

Manolo (7,836) Says:
October 17th, 2012 at 12:33 pm

C’mon, Lucy would never be a racist, wouldn’t she?

In fact, I’ve never claimed that. I was raised in an overtly racist New Zealand of the day, the remnants of which mainly inhabit places like Kiwiblog, anonymously, of course.

But I do claim to (at least partially) recognize my cognitive biases and by recognizing them, hopefully overcome them.

Most of you here make incredibly racist statements then profess shock horror at being called out. I can only presume those people are deluded in the extreme.
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October 17, 2012 6:41pm
Kea

My conspiracy theorist mate has sent me these links, as part of his on-going questioning of the legality of NZ law. (He has never been in trouble with the law).

Can someone tell me what this is about; government departments are registered as companies? or is this some sort of mischief?

(Look at the Certificate of Incorporation and company name)

http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/3147032

NZ POLICE LIMITED
http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/3238729
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October 17, 2012 6:41pm
wat dabney

“After every round of QE, employment and the share market rose. When the Fed stopped spending money, both fell. I guess according to you this isn’t good enough real world evidence as you prefer your Fantasy Island stuff. ”

You think you can go on inflating a bubble forever on funny money?

You’re just making the final reckoning all the more disastrous. Ask the Greeks.
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October 17, 2012 6:45pm
bereal

nasska

problem with your post @ 6.38 is that eventually some do gooder bearded psyco will make a name for
himself by discovering that he, (the bearded psyco) has done the impossible and ‘Cured’ the criminal’ Chand. of course
that do gooder bearded psyco will have no skin in the game.

Me, i’rather not take the risk.

You wanna bail Chand to live next door to you and your daughter ?

Get real mate.
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October 17, 2012 6:52pm
Reid

QE tilts at windmills, i.e. it tackles the wrong problem. It won’t work, it can’t.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XcGh1Dex4Yo

bereal, you might bear in mind it’s very hard to fake the illness this guy has been found to have. It’s also extremely rare to have both the defence and prosecution agree to the verdict, which they both did, in this case. Possibly them and the medical experts might know a bit than you about (a) the law and (b) the science. You might want to think about that.
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October 17, 2012 7:01pm
Luc Hansen

Wat, the Greece was borrowing off Germany and France, mainly, to finance their spending spree, prior to the crisis. Greece has not been able to practice QE because it does not have its own currency.

Therefore, Greece is irrelevant to a discussion on QE.

As for how long QE can go on for, according to Ben Bernanke, until normal business is resumed. To Bernanke, this means normal employment levels and inflation remaining low, which inflation usually does when there is an output gap i.e. the economy is running below potential. Hence, the US QE program is now indefinite to all intents and purposes.

Go argue with Bernanke.
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October 17, 2012 7:03pm
Luc Hansen

Reid

Your opposition is a very good sign for the effectiveness of QE. How’s your 9/11 conspiracy theory coming along these days? And have you found Kennedy’s killer yet?

The funny thing is, QE has been used quite sparingly in the US, and Federal spending cuts have been restrained, and the US is performing reasonably well.

QE has been less effective in Britain, where Cameron and Osborne are savagely putting millions into poverty and reduced opportunity through ideologically driven spending cuts.

Check this link, Reis, the graphs don’t lie:

http://delong.typepad.com/
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October 17, 2012 7:09pm
Scott Chris

I see beryl’s on the piss again. 🙄

Well said nasska. You’re really quite reasonable for a righty.
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October 17, 2012 7:11pm
Pauleastbay

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/16/colorado-working-poor-elections-2012

love this photo, lots of poverty when these people are queing up to get free Dr Peppers , although its one of my drinks of choice, I don’t think its reallya staple type food that a food bank needs to be dishing out, even though it appears to be Diet.
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October 17, 2012 7:11pm
Fletch

Just saw some of the debate online.
Pissed me off a bit.
Obama is such a bullshitter.
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October 17, 2012 7:16pm
Weihana

bereal,

Where did Judge McNaughton err in law?
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October 17, 2012 7:22pm
Luc Hansen

Fletch

I saw him avoid the question on gas prices. He should have just said yes, I agree, that how the free market works!

No balls, except when he’s ticking the name of the unperson he wants killed today, from the safety of his desk.
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October 17, 2012 7:25pm
Weihana

Luc Hansen,

How was his response avoiding the question? He referenced the recession. The price was down because of the recession. It has risen due to the recovery. A quick look at gas prices over the last 8 years shows this quite clearly. Obama could have explained it better I suppose, but then one would assume people would understand basic supply and demand. Demand goes up, prices go up. It’s criticizing Obama because the economy is in recovery.
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October 17, 2012 7:33pm
Fletch

Obama may have edged out Romney overall in the debate, but Romney won on the major issues, according to a CNN after-debate poll.

Economy: Romney wins 58-40%
Health care: Romney wins 49-46%.
Taxes: Romney wins 51-44%.
Deficit: Romney wins 59-36%.
Strong leader: Romney wins 49-46%.

See images from CNN screen shots here showing the polls –

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151109832659422&set=a.57138104421.71649.536584421&type=3&theater
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October 17, 2012 7:36pm
tom hunter

Poor old Luc appears to be losing it completely. For example he takes my quote about the Great Recession lingering and says:

Self serving ignorance from my friend – not to mention contradictory: the recession is over but the recession lingers…! Phew! Stand still for a moment, Tom.

Which would be quite a “gotcha”, except that:

Actually, Tom, it was the Global Financial Crisis that erupted in 2007-8, otherwise referred to as the Great Recession or the Lesser Depression, and remains ongoing.

Oh noes! Krugman Syndrome!!
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October 17, 2012 7:56pm
Yvette

David Shearer: Given his answer yesterday, has he now gone and asked his department, the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, what, if any, knowledge it had of the Kim Dotcom case prior to September?
Rt Hon JOHN KEY: A member of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet was aware of the Government Communications Security Bureau’s involvement after the raid took place; that would have been in late January. That information was never passed on to me. We have looked at all of the records and notes and email correspondence and the person has confirmed that they never discussed the matter with me, and has actually never discussed the matter with me.
David Shearer: Who was that person who did not pass on that information to him?
Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Roy Ferguson.
This afternoon’s Hansard – http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Business/QOA/0/4/4/50HansQ_20121017_00000003-3-Dotcom-Case-Actions-of-Government-Communications.htm

But the following has been posted here, during the last week, about three times –
Jan 20: GCSB tells Roy Ferguson, director of the intelligence co-ordination group in the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, of its role in monitoring Dotcom for the police. [the day after the raid]
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10838272

Shearer should read both the Herald and kiwiblog and not waste so much time in Parliament
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October 17, 2012 7:56pm
Fletch

Lowest part of the debate for me was when the subject of Benghazi came up and Obama said

And the suggestion that anybody in my team, whether the Secretary of State, our U.N. Ambassador, anybody on my team would play politics or mislead when we’ve lost four of our own, governor, is offensive. That’s not what we do. That’s not what I do as president, that’s not what I do as Commander in Chief.

Who is he kidding? Of COURSE they were playing politics, and it’s EXACTLY what he did as Commander in Chief. His only defense is to get seemingly indignant about it. What a bullshit artist.

And the facilitator jumped in to save Obama as regards the words “act of terror” in what he said the day after. She (the debate facilitator) came to Obama’s defense but has now walked that back, saying she was wrong.

After the debate, Anderson Cooper was the first member of the CNN post debate group to question whether or not Romney really got the Libya issue wrong. They then brought Crowley on and after all the damage she had done during the debate, she finally admitted that Romney was “right” but “picked the wrong word.”
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October 17, 2012 7:59pm
nasska

A young, ruthless executive died and went to hell. When he got there, he saw one sign that said Capitalist Hell, and another that said Socialist Hell. In front of the Socialist Hell was an incredibly long line, while there was no-one in front of the Capitalist Hell. So the executive asked the guard, “What do they do to you in Socialist Hell?”
“They boil you in oil, whip you, and then put you on the rack,” the guard replied.
“And what do they do to you in Capitalist Hell?”
“The same exact thing,” the guard answered.
“Then why is everybody in line for Socialist Hell?”
“Because in Socialist Hell, they’re always out of oil, whips, and racks!”
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October 17, 2012 8:00pm
tom hunter

And then it gets worse:

Ask the American car industry if they were terrified of the money printed to bail them out of their potentially terminal slide – you know, when Mitt said to let them go broke.

It wasn’t the American car industry it was GM and Chrysler. Ford neither wanted nor needed the help and are in better shape today for it and the European and Japanese companies with US factories are doing very nicely. And the result of the bailouts was that Chrysler is now owned by Fiat anyway, while GM has merely had their debts wiped out while undergoing no meaningful structural changes.

What Mitt understood (and Obama did not) is that “going broke” in the US nowadays does not mean a firesale of all assets, with all the workers going down the road. It means going through Chapter 11, which means you get court protection from your creditors while you get things worked out with court-appointed overseers. Deep structural changes are made until everybody is convinced that the company can actually earn money. But every creditor takes a haircut as well. It’s a tough process, but plenty of companies have come through it in the last 30 years and survived, and the same could have been done for GM and Chrysler. Instead GM has the same dysfunctional management, products and processes that have plagued the company for three decades, as described by The Truth About Cars:

It’s not that people are leaving GM. It’s how they leave. Two weeks ago, Opel chief Karl-Friedrich Stracke presented numbers to Dan Akerson. Akerson fires him. Opel gets two interim chiefs in a week. Last Thursday, Opel’s new design chief Dave Lyon doesn’t even start his job. Today, media in the U.S. and Germany report that Lyon had been escorted from the building and to a waiting car by GM’s head of personnel. A day later, global marketing chief Joel Ewanick suddenly leaves. Instead of wishing him all the best for his future endeavors, GM spokesman Greg Martin puts a knife in Ewanick’s back: “He failed to meet the expectations the company has of an employee.”

It took them two years to come to that uncivilized conclusion? Ewanick was hired as U.S. marketing chief in May 2010. Apparently, he exceeded expectations, because half a year later, Ewanick was promoted to global chief marketing officer.

As the blog points out, it looks and smells like panic, with GM stock at an all-time low and the company continuing to lose market share, with the government forcing them continue pushing the “Green” car that nobody wants, the Chevy Volt. I see they’re now also funneling billions of their tax-payer enhanced cash-pile into their faltering overseas operations: US taxpayers support the workers of the world. The US Federal government still owns 26% of the company stock, so perhaps it’s time they did a Michael Cullen and went all-in.

But the wider lesson from the car-company-bailouts is that a proper bankruptcy process was avoided not simply because of the business ignorance of Obama and his team, but because the United Auto Workers were determined that everybody else was going to take the hit except them – and they had political clout. Bondholders in particular got completely shafted by Obama – who simply kicked long-standing laws to the curb about creditor payment order and let them lose everything. Is it any wonder that GM is now having a tough time borrowing money from the private sector markets: nobody trusts them anymore. Not to mention the scare it sent through the whole company bond market (once again refer to the $2 trillion sitting on the sidelines). When political connections count more than business law you should not be surprised that people are standing on the sidelines.
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October 17, 2012 8:37pm
Luc Hansen

Tom

Whenever I see blogs, websites etc labeled “The truth about…(insert fetish of choice)” or “Blah blah…The Missing Truth” advertisements, I immediately prepare to be deluged with biased misinformation.

Let’s cut to the chase on your beef about Krugman, with whom you appear to be obsessed (did you watch his show today?) and tell us what you think the US government and the Fed should be doing right now.

Put some substance to your vitriol, my friend.

Weihana,

The question as I recall it (and I was heading out the door) was whether he thought it was not the role of a government department to control gas prices at the pump, which Steven Chu has, quite rightly, asserted previously. Chu is right. The US is a radical free market economy. Obama shied from giving a direct answer because then Romney would have had a home run with his lies.

Their system with two dominant parties is as crocked as ours.
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October 17, 2012 8:57pm
Luc Hansen

Oh, Tom, the GFC remains ongoing and there is nothing ‘lingering’ about it. It remains a full fledged crisis with the patient on life support.
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October 17, 2012 9:01pm
Kevin

Yep and greedy politicians caused it.
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October 17, 2012 9:07pm
Kea

Obama shied from giving a direct answer because then Romney would have had a home run with his lies.

What a load of drivel ! This is typical of the distortions and leaps of logic Obama supporters display to protect their man.

How do you know what Obama was thinking?

How did Obama know what Romney “would have ” done?

Are you (and Obama) mind readers? If not, then how do you support that statement?
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October 17, 2012 9:09pm
Griff

luc and tommy having a debate
you know luc
Whenever I see blogs, websites etc I immediately prepare to be deluged with biased misinformation. Is a good outlook every one transmits their bias the trick is to look without your own being engaged 😆
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October 17, 2012 9:27pm
Don the Kiwi

O’Bummer was better tonite, but he still failed.
How was telling everyone what Romney was “really” saying, going to help his vision for America?
Romney win – O’Bummer fail.
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October 17, 2012 9:34pm
Luc Hansen

Quite right Griff, but our Tom relies almost exclusively on such sources whereas I get into peer-reviewed stuff – like as for climate science. It’s not so much bias a recognising reality.

Climate change deniers like Tom have done a lot of damage to the credibly of any of their sources, I’m sure you would agree.
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October 17, 2012 9:42pm
Griff

Ha tom denies climate change yet actually admits to a political motivation 😉
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October 17, 2012 9:49pm
tom hunter

Whenever I see blogs, websites etc labeled “The truth about …

Generally that’s a fair point, given the number of dippy websites that are around. However in this specific case the site is a perfectly ordinary one that started years ago as a car review site – hence it’s somewhat humorous title. SInce then it’s expanded to being a full-blown specialist site on the car industry and as such, it has a large degree of practical inside understanding that financial and other blogs would not have.

Simple as that and the way the world has turned. You need to get with the times Luc.

Put some substance to your vitriol, my friend.

I’ve done so several times, both with Krugman’s mendacity on deficits and on “bubbles”, and got no point-by-point counter arguments from you, anymore than I have here today on things like the GM problems. That’s hardly a surprise as you clearly have about the same 19th century understanding of economics and business as Obama does, combined with a desire to blurt assertions rather than make reasoned arguments. I think my favourite of yours was several years ago during some heated debate about countries competing with each other, where you made the supposedly argument-ending question: What if a country has no comparative advantage?

That level of ignorance makes you easy prey for the likes of Krugman, not to mention his appeal to your far-left prejudices in favour of ever-higher government spending, higher taxes, and sticking it to capitalism.
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October 17, 2012 9:53pm
Kea

I get into peer-reviewed stuff

Peer reviewed by people with identical bias. “Like as for climate science” anyone who does not support the assumption, is removed from the review process.

You may be impressed by your pretentions, but others are not Luc.
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October 17, 2012 9:54pm
tom hunter

After every round of QE, employment and the share market rose. When the Fed stopped spending money, both fell. I guess according to you this isn’t good enough real world evidence as you prefer your Fantasy Island stuff.

Hey I just printed a trillion dollars and released it into the economy and look – the stock market has risen. Funny, that’s what people were saying about Greenspan and all his printed trillions. Housing prices have risen, people feel wealthier, so it’s time to spend, spend, spend. Even Jon Stewart gets it.

Remember how I was telling you earlier about bubbles of false wealth based on created money. Tell me again which is Fantasy Island stuff.

As for the rest of your ridiculous bile, take your pill, old chum. I lost track of what you were on about ages ago. But it’s very funny imagining the spittle dribbling down your chin while you bang on the keys!

Heh, heh, heh. That Nazi Castro stuff must have burned your ass more than I thought.
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October 17, 2012 9:57pm
Luc Hansen

NYT fact checks Tom on Detroit for me:

“2:26 pm

Jeremy W. PetersFact-Check: ‘Let Detroit Go Bankrupt’?

Did Mitt Romney really say “Let Detroit Go Bankrupt”?

Yes.

Though he did not write the headline that continues to haunt him — that task fell to an editor – he did argue in a New York Times op-ed article that General Motors and Chrysler should go through a managed bankruptcy.

But while those companies did ultimately file for bankruptcy, Mr. Romney’s claim ignores key facts about the automaker’s stability at the time.

Detroit was so fragile at the time that without the government assistance it received before heading into a court-supervised bankruptcy process, it could have collapsed.

At the time Mr. Romney wrote that article (he did not write the headline himself, but had to approve it per a New York Times policy allowing outside op-ed writers the chance to veto any editors’ changes), the financial markets had ground to a halt. It was November 2008, and there was little available liquidity for anyone seeking financing. There were certainly no financial institutions — not even Bain Capital, Mr. Romney’s private equity firm — looking to invest to the tune of the $80 billion the car companies needed at the time.

No private companies would come to the industry’s aid, and the only path through bankruptcy would have been Chapter 7 liquidation, not the more orderly Chapter 11 reorganization that the company ultimately followed, people inside and outside the car companies have said.

In fact, the task force asked Bain if it was interested in investing in General Motors’ European operations, according to one person with direct knowledge of the discussions.

Bain declined, this person said, speaking anonymously to discuss private negotiations.”

Points victory to me, I believe.
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October 17, 2012 9:57pm
Luc Hansen

There you go again, Tom, confusing era’s, and no, your other stuff doesn’t bother me. I understand you are just having fun. And with your love of the IDF, I understand your fascination with their soul mates, the Nazis.

But I asked above, where’s your beef, Tom, on the US economy? What’s your alternative to the current policies?

I ‘ll check back tomorrow.

Cheers.
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October 17, 2012 10:03pm
Kea

Detroit was so fragile at the time that without the government assistance it received before heading into a court-supervised bankruptcy process, it could have collapsed.

It did collapse.

If it did not collapse, then why was all that “government assistance” required ?

It is interesting to look at all the donations Obama received from those same companies he latter bailed out to the tune of Trillions of dollars, creating a crippling burden on working Americans for generations to come.
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October 17, 2012 10:05pm
Griff

My opinion of the usa car industry pretty much matches toms.
The unions (the same as killed the pom industry)and add in the protection of the right in allowing crap cheap fuel wasting dinosaur trucks. The volt is a waste of money excess electricity in the states is mostly produced by coal more electric cars = more coal burnt. Poor management that has been chasing the japs for decades yet is still a generation behind meanwhile the Koreans and chines are leapfrogging both
I have driven a brand new cammaro huge heap of shit compared to say the lexus or even Mercedes that I drove straight after
They deserve to go under propping them up is jut prolonging the pain.
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October 17, 2012 10:08pm
Kea

Griff is on about his bloody fuel dinosaurs again !!! 🙂
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October 17, 2012 10:15pm
Griff

Have you driven many new or newish yankee cars they remind me of ladas or skodas from the eighties
rattle rattle clunk. I was looking at the specs for the latest HD yesterday has the same horsepower as from a Vincent in 1948 with half the ccs
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October 17, 2012 10:21pm
Kea

Funny that both Ladas and Yank-tanks were both made by Super Powers !
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October 17, 2012 10:27pm
bereal

Now we know that Luc Hansen is a sicko nudist who finds “eye candy…….” well, wherever.
Sickening.
cause that is what Luc has said.
Luc is proud to be a nudist.
How sad for Luc.

What is Griffs excuse ?

What is your excuse Griff ?

By the way,
cheers, Luc.
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October 17, 2012 10:27pm
bereal

Luc and Griff.
Oh dear.

Nuf said.
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October 17, 2012 10:48pm
tom hunter

Let Detroit Go Bankrupt”?

We’re talking about GM, not Detroit, which is as broken a city as you can get. Not surprising after decades of being controlled by the Democrats, who brought into the Mayoralty, Coleman Young, an outright Black racist who hated whites and corporations in that order. You’d have loved him.

Jeremy W. Peters Fact-Check:
NYT

Too funny. Of course you went with the NYT, funnily enough the media equivalent of GM in all respects.

Points victory to me, I believe.

Nothing like a person proclaiming their own victory. “Objective” no doubt.

Once again you mistake argument for fact and half-truths for reasoning. Once again combined with your ignorance. Let me explain why, in this case, the NYT has pulled the wool over your eyes.

the financial markets had ground to a halt. It was November 2008, and there was little available liquidity for anyone seeking financing. There were certainly no financial institutions — not even Bain Capital, Mr. Romney’s private equity firm — looking to invest to the tune of the $80 billion the car companies needed at the time.

The financial markets were unfrozen very quickly by TARP and the car rescue was not quite that urgent. They’d been asking about this for months. And it was not an “investment”; the $80 billion was a straight out cover of the debts the companies had built up. But no company on the verge of bankruptcy is ever going to get that, that’s actually the whole point, which apparently Mr Peters and you don’t understand.

No private companies would come to the industry’s aid, and the only path through bankruptcy would have been Chapter 7 liquidation, not the more orderly Chapter 11 reorganization that the company ultimately followed, people inside and outside the car companies have said.

“people have said” – uh huh. We’re long past the day when anybody would trust an NYT writer with that line. But to repeat my first point, nobody – aside from idiot governments – will ever simply cover, at 100 cents on the dollar, the debts of a company nearing bankruptcy, so this whole line about how No private companies would come to the industry’s aid, does not automatically mean that Chapter 7 liquidation would happen. The whole idea of Chapter 11 is to get into it, get the creditor claims put on hold and then see what can be done – including negotiations over all those debts – not to wipe the debts and then go into Chapter 11. That simply makes the whole thing a mere legal formality rather than the re-structuring it was intended to be.

And that’s why – according to Forbes magazine which, though biased in favour of capitalism, still has a credible reputation – GM is heading towards bankruptcy once again.

Which brings me to the last of Peter’s points:

In fact, the task force asked Bain if it was interested in investing in General Motors’ European operations, according to one person with direct knowledge of the discussions.

Bain declined, this person said, speaking anonymously to discuss private negotiations.”

Well of course they declined. As I said – only governments are (and were) stupid enough to do that, and the result is that they likely will have to do it all over again.

Now it may be that GM cannot be saved. Perhaps they will have to be liquidated. But in that case it’s better to find out in 2008 than 2013 or 2014, after countless more billions are poured down the rathole.

But what’s the point of me trying to explain this to someone like Luc Hansen or most other lefties – people who still think that Cullen’s purchase of Kiwirail was the correct thing to do. Talk about missing the bigger picture.
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October 17, 2012 10:48pm
Kevin

Griff the human population is the problem so population reduction is the solution. On its own climate,change doesnt rate in the top 10 problems facing mankind. Packaged with overpopulation of course its number one.

Wish I’d thought up trading in thin air though – great party joke taken on a life of its own.
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October 17, 2012 10:49pm
F E Smith

My RSS feed just got a post through on the Nats changing the current designation of silks as SC back to QC. I can’t find it here- does anyone else have that problem?

[DPF: I set the date wrong. Will reappear tomorrow. Good comments below. Copy them onto it when it reappears]
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October 17, 2012 10:57pm
F E Smith

Oh well, I can’t be bothered waiting, so:

To answer DPFs first question, the rank of QC was always restricted to barristers because they alone were ‘counsel’. In the UK they are actually two professions, with different societies, traditions and so on, although all fitting together under the term ‘lawyer’. One of the hallmarks of a QC is their independence. They have obligations to nobody because, as a barrister, they are self employed. Solicitors in a firm, on the other hand, have an obligation to their partners as well as an interest in keeping the client happy. The barrister, who is instructed by the solicitor and not the client, does not have that problem. Indeed, a barrister is not even allowed to sue for his/her fee, the payment of that being a matter of honour on the part of the instructing solicitor.

Moreover, because of their role as counsel they really are considered to be far more learned than a solicitor. It is noticeable that, in the UK, when there is a question of law at a firm of solicitors or in a government department, an opinion will often be sought from counsel, that being a barrister. Solicitors often seem to hold barristers in something akin to awe over in the UK. As opposed to NZ, where solicitors often seem to view barristers, especially criminal specialists, as being something that they would wipe off their shoe.

This is especially seen in the fact that while a solicitor should be referred to as a friend in court by both solicitors and barristers, a barrister is, instead, referred to as a ‘learned friend’. I think (from memory) that this has a lot to do with the fact that, historically, solicitors have not needed university degrees, being able to become solicitors by a system of apprenticeship known as ‘articles’. Barristers, on the other hand, were trained in the Inns of Court, with a focus on advocacy that solicitors did not have.

New Zealand, of course, has a fused profession not because we are more enlightened but because we simply did not have enough of each profession in the early days. This required solicitors to act as barristers and vice versa, so it made sense to continue that. You will note that most of Aus still has split professions.

I note that there has been a measure of integration in England and Wales that has had a relatively low take-up. Moreover, awards of silk are made to solicitors and academics as well, but even today they are not seen as really being QCs in the old fashioned sense. Harriet Harman was made a solicitor QC, for goodness sake, and she was, apparently useless.

In NZ, the Labour government changed the designation over the objection of the legal profession. In changing it back, most lawyers (or at least those who are interested in it) will be supporting the government’s plans. Moreover, we support the reversion back to barristers sole for a couple or three reasons:
1. The independence mentioned above is guaranteed by the fact that the Queen’s Counsel is a barrister sole.

2. it shows that the barrister sole truly is a good advocate, being able to become a leader at the bar without being able rely upon the reputation or support of his law firm. It is possible for an average lawyer to look good within a very good law firm. That is not possible if the practitioner is a barrister sole. In that case their reputation rests solely upon themselves.

3. With regards the defence bar, we also think that giving silk to solicitors will see the Attorney-General being able to reward his pet Crown Solicitors with silk, simply by dint of them having the warrant. Crown Solicitors are not appointed because they are really good criminal lawyers. They are generally appointed because they are a partner in the firm that has historically had the warrant for that area. Some haven’t even been practising as criminal lawyers prior to appointment! I know of one who was chosen to take the warrant by his firm because he was the newest partner and none of the others wanted it. Well, that is what he told me.

I could keep on, but it is late, so will let it go here.

I will just say that the change back to QCs is supported by the profession, and I personally think that any argument to keep it at SC is merely a republican stealth effort. Like getting rid of the Privy Council.
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October 17, 2012 11:24pm
F E Smith

Just updating the above, I see that solicitors in England can be made ‘honorary’ QCs.

I don’t agree that it is anti-competitive to have QCs limited to the Bar. After all, they are solely dependent upon solicitors for their custom, whereas partners in firms can go out and actually look for work. How that can be seen an advantage to the barristers is beyond me!
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October 17, 2012 11:36pm
publicwatchdog

Goodness me Graham – you must be psychedelic!?

😉

Indeed I WAS outside the Auckland District Court today – supporting ‘ONE LAW FOR ALL’!

http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/HOWCOME.jpg

http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/JOHN-BANKS-RAT-WITH-GOLD-TOOTH-MORPH-BANNER-ONLY-23-September-2012.jpg

http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Key1.jpg

Kind regards,

Penny Bright

‘Anti-corruption campaigner’
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October 17, 2012 11:41pm
Kevin

Hone must have been fairly pleased that Maori got “special treatment” from the government today. John Minto and I used to call it “institutionalised racism”. Personally penny I think hone is a much better catch for you than John, if you can land him.
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October 17, 2012 11:55pm
publicwatchdog

Thank you Kevin – but I’m all sorted 🙂

Kind regards,

Penny Bright

‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

PS: Did you like the banners?

🙂
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October 18, 2012 12:12am
questions

Jack5
“Is it correct that the Crown Prosecutor and the defence between them made a deal that the evidence of two psychiatrists should be accepted?”

No.
P.S. you are a fuck wit.

bereal
“If ‘Judge” McNaughton had done his job Christie may still be alive.”

Did the police appeal the decision? if not, had they done their job Christie Marceau might still be alive.
P.S. you too are a fuck wit.
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October 18, 2012 1:30am
Manolo

MSM in the tank with the Messiah: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/17/curl-crowley-skews-hard-obama-disastrous-debate/
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October 18, 2012 6:16am
Manolo

The greedy Stone Agers moan and want the Crown to apologise (and more money, of course):

The Government has been found to have breached the Treaty of Waitangi by failing to support Maori-language early childhood centres.

The Waitangi Tribunal finds that the kohanga reo movement – established in the 1980s to help save the language – suffered because of government policy and funding decisions.

In a ruling published today, the tribunal says the Government should apologise to the Kohanga Reo Trust, promote attendance among Maori families, and create a policy and funding regime specifically for kohanga reo.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/7830595/Crown-failed-kohanga-reo-says-tribunal
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October 18, 2012 6:52am

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