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September 9, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 9 September 2012

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General Debate

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nasska

A little good news for the fruitloops from NZ Conservative. Salvation may be only a pill away.

Ref: http://www.barstoolsports.com/nyc/super-page/australian-doctor-in-hot-water-for-prescribing-a-pill-to-try-and-cure-the-gay/
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September 9, 2012 8:12am
hj

Sustainability and Science, Engineering, and Technology
A major consequence of our much heralded science, engineering and technology has been to
allow more people to live in regions that once supported only smaller populations. Ever since
the age of hunters and gatherers, the population has grown slowly and humans have gradually
invented science, engineering and technology to meet the needs of the growing populations.
When the needs were not met, growing populations and civilizations were in trouble.
Archaeologists today study the ruins of societies that failed and disappeared. A factor of the
demise of these failed societies was the inability of the societies to provide sufficient food for
their populations. The societies that persisted did so because they used science and technology
to increase agricultural production and to allow urbanization and the rise of cities.
Science, engineering and technology have made today’s big cities possible, so that in 2012
something like 82% of Americans live in cities. All over the world people are leaving their poor
but marginally sustainable rural agricultural life to crowd into the world’s massive and
increasingly unmanageable cities.
Cities have near zero ecological productivity. In the ecological sense, our cities are deserts
and wastelands! They are the human equivalent of the cattle feedlots (and other “high
efficiency” facilities for the production of pigs and chickens) that one sees throughout America.
In the feedlots the animals are confined: Petroleum is used to haul food to the animals and then
more petroleum is used to haul away the waste products. So it is in our cities. The people are
confined. Petroleum is used to haul in food and energy and to haul out waste. The human cities
and the cattle feedlots are both made possible by science, engineering, technology and by
abundant low-cost energy. By making cities possible, science, engineering and technology have
supported and encouraged population growth, and the movement of people away from
agriculture, which is the exactly the opposite of what is required for sustainability

Sustainability and Scientists, Engineers, and Technologists
As we contemplate how we should deal with the threat of global warming, it is distressing to
read a statement by “a professor…who studies international climate policy…” saying that “The
way we reduce emissions is through technology.” (19) Why is it that engineers, scientists and
technologists almost never recommend stopping population growth as the solution to the
problems of reducing global greenhouse gas emissions? Is this solution too obvious?
By ignoring overpopulation, scientists, engineers and technologists put society in a deep hole,
yet they seem to forget the old adage:
When you find yourself in a hole – stop digging!
Throughout the world, our mega-technologists (albeit with a deep sense of responsibility and
public service) recommend that we work hard to use science, engineering and technology to
accommodate the growth of populations. Providing food for the expected population increase is
presented as a great challenge, even though meeting the challenge will make the population
problems worse. Here is a popular national newspaper columnist writing on the problems of
overpopulation in the U.S. (20):
The United States has its population challenges at home – building the infrastructure
from schools to roads to food supply – for a predicted 100 million more people [in the
U.S.] by 2040.
The prevailing reaction of our leaders seems to be to speed up our digging. If we raise taxes and
spend heavily and build the public infrastructure needed to accommodate the predicted
population growth, then the people will appear. We have trapped ourselves in a self-fulfilling
prediction.
Can it be that scientists, engineers and technologists are impeding the movement of our
society toward sustainability?
http://www.albartlett.org/articles/art_meaning_of_sustainability_2012mar20.pdf
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September 9, 2012 8:48am
Pete George

Herald on Sunday disses TV snobs as it claims “The television reality is… we just love crap”.

The funny thing is that those who don’t vote with their remotes are the ones ‘stuck’ with reality TV. The rest of us are fine. As the connoiseurs of crap of crap keep escaping from their crap lives?

And ‘we’ don’t just love crap. We have lives.
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September 9, 2012 8:54am
wat dabney

hj,

Forgive me for saying so, but you post some really stupid stuff here. And I mean really stupid.

“Cities have near zero ecological productivity. In the ecological sense, our cities are deserts
and wastelands! They are the human equivalent of the cattle feedlots”

Let me see if I’ve got this right: non-food-producing areas – cities – are to be condemned because, er, they don’t produce food.

Brilliant.

And rural areas? Why, they don’t produce cars, steel, glass, computers, books, medicine, etc. Our rural areas are deserts and wastelands!
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September 9, 2012 9:11am
Griff

Nasska. I can see great demand for such medication within the conservative community as a prophylactic You never know when rampant gaynis will take you up the arse!
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September 9, 2012 9:12am
my 2 cents

Nassaka
A pill won’t cure a choice only a series of other choices can do that.
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September 9, 2012 9:18am
Luke Mutton

Yes Nasska, I think it is obvious that Colin Craig and Russell Fletcher both took this pill, otherwise they’d be able to tell us exactly when they chose to be hetro and the thought processes that led up to that choice.
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September 9, 2012 9:20am
Pete George

Today David Shearer is announcing Labour education policy, including a commitment “to roll out Reading Recovery to all schools”. I didn’t realise it wasn’t available in all schools already, reading is the most funadamental of skills we should surely be ensuring all kids are effectively educated in.

If you get past the political palaver of Shearer’s announcement there’s a good factsheet. Labour: need reading recovery.
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September 9, 2012 9:34am
All_on_Red

I hear President Obama is ill. Apparently he’s suffering from “Deficit Attention Disorder”.
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September 9, 2012 10:05am
Kea

Hj; the idea of moving people out of the cities, doing away with our market economy and getting back to nature, has been tried before. Pol Pot implemented your ideas in Cambodia. He also took care of the population problem, at the same time. Are you aware of his work in this area?
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September 9, 2012 10:09am
Viking2

Feel like you have been ripped off every day.
Feul, power, coal.

Power industry’s carbon gift
ROB STOCK
Last updated 05:00 09/09/2012

One analyst, Dr Geoff Bertram of Victoria University, calculated the difference between the real cost of carbon and what consumers are being charged is producing a $566 million windfall for the power generators. Analysis from the Ministry of Energy produced a similar figure.

Despite the price of carbon crashing, Contact Energy is yet to alter the carbon levy it imposed on customers when the Emissions Trading Scheme began in 2010.

And Contact may not be the only power company overcharging customers for carbon.

Prices on the carbon market have plunged to about $5 a tonne for NZ carbon credits, and around $4 for imported foreign credits.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/7639672/Power-industrys-carbon-gift
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September 9, 2012 10:25am
MikeG

Isn’t this receiving stolen goods? (I’m referring to the petrol that Paul Holmes refers to as “free”)
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10832758
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September 9, 2012 10:51am
Paulus

To: Professor Shearer

If you cannot speak properly, and in English, you cannot read, or write, properly.
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September 9, 2012 10:53am
hj

Watt Dabney

Let me see if I’ve got this right: non-food-producing areas – cities – are to be condemned because, er, they don’t produce food.

Brilliant.

And rural areas? Why, they don’t produce cars, steel, glass, computers, books, medicine, etc. Our rural areas are deserts and wastelands!
…………………………..
Sustainability isn’t sexy but it is worth thinking about given that population growth is government policy.
There is a clear relationship between climate change and population, realisation of the constraints on fossil fuel production isn’t so clear yet but there is good evidence that fuel price increases trigger recession.
One thing is clear, however is that there are limits to growth and that can be found in arithmetic:

Professor Bartlett has given his celebrated one-hour lecture, Arithmetic, Population and Energy: Sustainability 101 over 1,600 times to audiences with an average attendance of 80 in the United States and world-wide. His audiences have ranged from junior high school and college students to corporate executives and scientists, and to congressional staffs.
He first gave the talk in September, 1969, and subsequently has presented it an average of once every 8.5 days for 36 years. His talk is based on his paper, Forgotten Fundamentals of the Energy Crisis, originally published in the American Journal of Physics, and revised in the Journal of Geological Education.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/arithmetic-population-and-energy-lecture/
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September 9, 2012 11:09am
bhudson

@MikeG,

A good point. Holmes should return the fuel or pay for it. Crowing about a free tank a gas which had been stolen from someone else is not a good look. Only marginally less stupid than leaving his keys in the vehicle in the first place.
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September 9, 2012 12:15pm
Fletch

From the Wall Street Journal –
America’s real unemployment figure (taking everything into account) is 19%

Don’t be fooled by the headline unemployment number of 8.1% announced on Friday. The reason the number dropped to 8.1% from 8.3% in July was not because more jobs were created, but because more people quit looking for work.

The number for August reflects only people who have actively applied for a job in the past four weeks, either by interview or by filling an application form. But when the average period of unemployment is nearly 40 weeks, it is unrealistic to expect everyone who needs a job to keep seeking work consistently for months on end. You don’t have to be lazy to recoil from the heartbreaking futility of knocking, week after week, on closed doors.

How many people are out of work but not counted as unemployed because they hadn’t sought work in the past four weeks? Eight million. This is the sort of distressing number that turns up when you look beyond the headline number.

Here’s another one: 96,000—that’s how many new jobs were added last month, well short of the anemic 125,000 predicted by analysts, and dramatically less than the (still paltry) 139,000 the economy had been averaging in 2012.

The alarming numbers proliferate the deeper you look: 40.7% of the people counted as unemployed have been out of work for 27 weeks or more—that’s 5.2 million “long-term” unemployed. Fewer Americans are at work today than in April 2000, even though the population since then has grown by 31 million.

We are still almost five million payrolls shy of where we were at the end of 2007, when the recession began. Think about that when you hear the Obama administration’s talk of an economic recovery.

The key indicator of our employment health, in all the statistics, is what the government calls U-6. This is the number who have applied for work in the past six months and includes people who are involuntary part-time workers—government-speak for those individuals whose jobs have been cut back to two or three days a week.

They are working part-time only because they’ve been unable to find full-time work. This involuntary army of what’s called “underutilized labor” has been hovering for months at about 15% of the workforce. Include the eight million who have simply given up looking, and the real unemployment rate is closer to 19%.

In short, the president’s ill-designed stimulus program was a failure

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444273704577635681206305056.html

Oh dear…
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September 9, 2012 12:16pm
nasska

A potential Labour/Green leader getting in a little early practice.

Ref: http://i.imgur.com/XaiUx.gif
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September 9, 2012 12:40pm
Luc Hansen

I see Paul Holmes had his Jeep taken for a joyride and the crooks were quickly apprehended after they filled with $150 worth of gas and scampered without paying.

So instead of gloating about getting a tank of free gas, wouldn’t you think the very well resourced Holmes would pop into the service station and drop $150 on the counter?

Maybe his mind just doesn’t function that way.
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September 9, 2012 12:54pm
Luc Hansen

In short, the president’s ill-designed stimulus program was a failure

Not quite as simple as the woefully partisan WSJ would have you believe. The stimulus was always insufficient, but the basis for comparison is what would have happened with no stimulus. There is a graph on Paul Krugman’s blog that show the direct effect on employment with each dose of QE. Without stimulus, the free fall in employed numbers would have continued and the western world would be in an even bigger funk!

I’m not a supporter of Obama, but I do like to see the facts presented within the appropriate context.
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September 9, 2012 12:59pm
hj

In the beginning, the Master Economist created the Economy. He created businesses large and small, consumers, governments with their regulation, and financial institutions of all types. And the Master Economist declared that the economy should grow. And it did grow, but only for a while. Then it stalled. Then He declared that stimulus of various types should fix it, and it did, for a while. Then He declared that if humans would just wait for a while, it would fix itself, but it wouldn’t.

This is wat Wat needs to know:
http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2012-09-06/how-energy-shapes-economy
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September 9, 2012 1:13pm
Redbaiter

Heres an idea for NZ.

After all, won’t be long before we’ve reached the same state as Honduras-

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/struggling-violence-poverty-honduras-signs-deal-privately-run-cities-article-1.1153476

“Struggling with violence, poverty, Honduras signs deal for privately run cities “
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September 9, 2012 1:38pm
Manolo

Each country get the government it deserves, so what has the US done to deserve the incompetent Kenyan?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/08/us-usa-campaign-poll-idUSBRE88619X20120908
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September 9, 2012 1:49pm
Viking2

A golfer was involved in a terrible car crash and was rushed to the hospital.

Just before he was put under, the surgeon popped in to see him.

“I have some good news and some bad news,” says the surgeon.

“The bad news is that I have to remove your right arm!”

“Oh God no!” cries the man “My golfing is over! Please Doc, what’s the good news?”

“The good news is, I have another one to replace it with, but it’s a woman’s arm.

I’ll need your permission before I go ahead with the transplant.”

“Go for it doc” says the man. “As long as I can play golf again.”

The operation went well and a year later the man was out on the golf course

when he bumped into the surgeon. “Hi, how’s the new arm?” asks the surgeon.

“Just great,” says the businessman. “I’m playing the best golf of my life.

My new arm has a much finer touch and my putting has really improved.”

“That’s great,” said the surgeon.

“Not only that,” continued the golfer, “my handwriting has improved,

I’ve learned how to sew my own clothes and I’ve even taken up

painting landscapes in watercolours”

“Unbelievable!” said the surgeon, “I’m so glad to hear the transplant

was such a great success. Are you having any side effects?”

“Well, just one problem,” said the golfer.

“Every time I get an erection, I also get a headache
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September 9, 2012 4:13pm
wtfunz

Manolo,
America is full of some of the dumbest people on the planet which is why they deserve Obama.
hj
You obviously just received your new shipment of “what-ever-the-hell” you are smoking, injecting, inhaling or inserting. Our major cities are near our major ports or agricultural areas. Thats where the jobs are = thats where the people go to live and ,unless they’re bludgers, work. The population continues to increase as people now live to 80yrs+. i.e 4 generations. 2 people soon become a family of 30. Worse if you are a beneficiary – due to our generousity they start reproducing at 13 or 14 encouraged by their welfare cheque and fit in 6 generations (of future beneficiares) = 128. Scary huh. But now we’ve jumped to the sterilisation arguement and there you have it – you keep dreaming of turning the clock back hj I’ll keep dreaming of sterilisation.
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September 9, 2012 4:15pm
Manolo

The AGW bigots join forces: http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8529952/environment-groups-lobby-government
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September 9, 2012 4:23pm
Viking2

For the obese unemployed.

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/obese-woman-loses-weight-marathon-sex-article-1.1116995
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September 9, 2012 4:24pm
Colville

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/7641569/Labour-plans-free-food-for-some-schools

Now its free food ….
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September 9, 2012 4:31pm
Reid

Every time I get an erection, I also get a headache.

That’s the very definition of a serious dilemna, isn’t it.
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September 9, 2012 5:09pm
nasska

Reid

Age tends to take care of it. 🙂
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September 9, 2012 5:18pm
Reid

Now its free food …

What Bennett needs to do is form educational flying squads around the country, ready at a moment’s notice to swoop on some really mental parent who can’t be fucked or is too mental to give a flying fuck about their kid’s education because s/he are too busy stuffing up their useless selfish minds with their own pleasure chemical or computer game they got from a cuzzie.

They should bash down the door and give every useless parent, uncle, auntie, whoever is the most mental, a jolly good thrashing, britches down, in front of the kids.

As the squad leaves they contemptuously throw written instructions on the floor, then pause and, just because they really do care, ~~shout them out like a Seargent on the Parade Ground~~ read them out in case the silly old mentals can’t even fucking read. One of the conditions in those instructions is that if they don’t fucking well feed their kids with love and kindness and respect and all those good things including food and caring about how they’re doing in school, like any proper parents just fucking well do as a normal, everyday matter of simple course, then we’ll come back and give you another sore botty, won’t we.

I predict if Bennett did that, this stupid ineffectual policy of the lefties which won’t do anything to improve the situation would be gone by lunchtime. What do you think Colville? Should I contact Paula and explain the concept?
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September 9, 2012 5:23pm
Viking2

Dowse director Cam McCracken, who has not seen the work, said it gives Westerners another view on the Muslim world, which we don’t usually get to see “if ever”.

“What we usually see are stereotypes and negativities and this is a very positive and atypical view,” McCracken said.

“It shows how normal and similar we are.”

So McCraken hasn’t seen the film buit is able to tell us its all very positive.
What a fuckwit and why should we believe him?
Let us see for ourselves.

Slobbering socialist that he is.
I’ll bet he lives in Wainui o mata

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/hutt-valley/7640736/Peek-behind-burqa-rattles-some
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September 9, 2012 5:59pm
Reid

V2 I don’t know about you but I’ve found human beings are human beings all across the planet and just like us, Muslim nations have poor people and rich people, well educated people and dumb people, angry people, sad people, happy people, evil people, good people, fanatical people and mild people, men, women, children. Just like we do.

Perhaps because I am religious I know what it is and I know no religion is brain-washing. None of the true ones and this is one. Perhaps that’s why they don’t bother me.
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September 9, 2012 6:10pm
nasska

V2

Well, thanks to the primitive, anal followers of the prophet 50% of the Lower Hutt ratepayers who bankrolled the showing of the rubbish won’t get a chance to see it either.

If Muslims are “normal & similar” or could be vaguely described as “positive” their women wouldn’t be walking around looking like over full Glad trash bags.
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September 9, 2012 6:11pm
Reid

If Muslims are “normal & similar” or could be vaguely described as “positive” their women wouldn’t be walking around looking like over full Glad trash bags.

That will hopefully appear on some motorway billboard somewhere sometime soon, nasska!

I mean there’d be outrage of course, but who cares about that?
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September 9, 2012 6:21pm
nasska

…”I mean there’d be outrage, but who cares about that?”….

Can’t think of anyone offhand.
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September 9, 2012 6:26pm
Reid

Seriously though of course every Westerner finds the burka custom unnecessary and strange and possibly cruel.

Personally I look straight through that, not because I don’t recognise it but because I don’t think it’s cruel in the context of the overall societies and how they all are relative to the minority extremist individuals and incidents which are mostly in fact IMO exclusively the things highlighted in the MSM. And when one does that it reveals the innate humanity that resides in all societies. That’s what the propaganda of the ‘war on terror’ operates to negate. Look straight through it and it reveals a different world.
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September 9, 2012 6:37pm
Viking2

So you like oppressing women then Reid?

Are you married?
If so, do you treat your wife and daughters in that manner?

If not why not?
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September 9, 2012 6:39pm
Manolo

Look straight through it and it reveals a different world.

Tell that to a modern woman, your wife or any female relative to see the kind of answer you get.
The burka belongs to the Dark Ages along with the violent religion of peace.
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September 9, 2012 6:42pm
Viking2

Something for you to enjoy.
Better than playing rugby.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-pww8xpt_E
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September 9, 2012 6:45pm
Reid

So you like oppressing women then Reid?

No I don’t V2. Why?

What I’m saying is, the society itself has decided it’s an institution they wish to have, it seems to work, in that no-one gets hurt by it. Personally we wouldn’t have it here but we’re not them, by a long shot. No, but they have different backgrounds and history and institutions and legal and political and educational frameworks than we did and that per se doesn’t make them wrong, does it. It makes them different, but it doesn’t make them wrong.

And one of those frameworks is the overbearing piousness toward their women, but you need to know and recognise and understand and accept as a fact, because it is, that this is not done by their religion to repress women, it’s done to respect women. And it’s not the way we’d do it, but bear in mind their women have always done it this way and I’m not sure about you but I personally haven’t noticed an avalanche of complaints from them about what happens and if you say they’re not allowed to access the internet by their overbearing partners, sometimes you may be right but if that sentiment really was widespread amongst simply the whole lot of them, then surely by now one, at least one, would have desperately hit the send key just seconds before her enraged spouse dragged her away and made her put on her burka again. But we haven’t heard that, have we.
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September 9, 2012 6:48pm
nasska

Reid

If the ‘burqa & curtain’ thing was a solitary symbol of another culture similar say to a Maori tattoo, a red dot on an Indian woman’s forehead or a fat gut on an American I too wouldn’t give the practice a thought.

But it isn’t! It began as a symbol of oppression against women in a primitive Abrahamic tribal society, it hasn’t changed an iota anywhere in the world where Muslims immigrate to & it won’t change unless change is forced onto them.

You view the primitives downgrading of half of society & write it off as as a cultural quirk……it isn’t.
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September 9, 2012 6:48pm
Viking2

All men are seduced into believing they’re marrying nymphomaniacs.

The great problem is, after a few years, the nympho leaves….
but the fucking maniac stays on.

http://screencast.com/t/tsxmrHa7R8R
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September 9, 2012 7:10pm
Viking2

Something rotten in the state of Denmark
Oliver Hartwich | Executive Director | oliver.hartwich@nzinitiative.org.nz
Oliver Hartwich

I am in Prague attending the general meeting of the Mont Pelerin Society, a network of distinguished liberal academics and intellectuals. One of the best speeches at the conference, however, was delivered by a businessman with no academic affiliation – and contained an implicit warning to countries like New Zealand.

Lars Christensen, co-CEO of the Danish Saxo Bank, presented a worrying account of the economic and political conditions in Denmark.

Denmark is not a Eurozone member, and many commentators still believe Denmark is a good example of a successful mixed economy. They should think again.

Denmark’s economy has become unsustainable. Consider this: out of 5.6 million Danes, only 1.8 million (32%) work in the private sector. The rest are either too young or too old to work, unemployed and on benefits, or working for the Danish government and its agencies. Even most private sector employees receive state income support payments.

This means the Danish government’s focus is inevitably on redistribution, not wealth creation.

Is it any wonder then, that only 28,000 Danes (0.5% of the population) earn an annual income of more than $1 million kroners (NZ$207,000)? High taxes have driven a whole generation of ambitious Danes abroad.

Danes recently debated the case of a welfare recipient who has spent the last 20 years on benefits, despite having no disability or any other condition preventing work.

What enraged those few hardworking Danes was that she is still complaining about her tight finances. Apparently it was not enough for the state to cover her ‘fixed costs’, including accommodation, dog food, cigarettes, TV package subscription, internet, phone, and her son’s football coaching. After all of that, she only had NZ$1,060 left to live per month – which she found grossly inadequate. Judging by the public outcry that followed, most Danes disagreed.

In Europe, Denmark is not the exception but the rule. Governments have grown too big, squeezing out private enterprise and undermining individual responsibility in the process. The end result of such developments is visible in countries such as Greece, Portugal and Spain. But even Denmark may not be far behind.

Countries such as New Zealand should study the European experience closely. You cannot become prosperous by redistributing wealth. Any successful society needs a strong private sector. And you also need it to pay for the services delivered by the state.

http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=368ce55919dfdca57fc0d8cb6&id=f268967a4c&e=aff73844ed
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September 9, 2012 7:16pm
nasska

V2

Loved your 6.45pm link. On a similar vein I often wonder why young blokes who moan about being celibate don’t get themselves interested in the equestrian sports. Girls outnumber the boys about ten to one & not a fattie in sight! 🙂
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September 9, 2012 7:23pm
Griff

V2 the man behind the lady says it all .
MMMMMM nice arse nether mind the obvious warning displayed else where.
Unfortunate for males the sexual urge overcomes the flight reflex.
No different from the black widow spider our future ends up consumed by her needs to the detriment of our own.
😆

Nasska have you seen the number of single attractive woman to be found in your local church grope ops group
Woman and horses… Because of certain physical differences for a man a horse fails to generate the same level of personal enjoyment as that experienced by woman
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September 9, 2012 7:38pm
hj

wtfunz (6) Says:

hj
The population continues to increase as people now live to 80yrs+. i.e 4 generations. 2 people soon become a family of 30. Worse if you are a beneficiary – due to our generousity they start reproducing at 13 or 14 encouraged by their welfare cheque and fit in 6 generations (of future beneficiares) = 128. Scary huh. But now we’ve jumped to the sterilisation arguement and there you have it – you keep dreaming of turning the clock back hj I’ll keep dreaming of sterilisation.
……………..
Blame anything but government policy?

80% of our population growth in the last couple of decades has been the net inflow of non NZ citizens .
http://www.treasury.govt.nz/downloads/pdfs/mi-jarrett-comm.pdf

“Immigration and tax breaks for investment in residential property are being cited as the underlying causes of steep increases in the cost of housing over the past decade.
New Zealand now boasts one of the highest rates of home unaffordability in the world as a result of prices rising far faster than incomes, and the government’s Savings Working Group blames that squarely on the policies of successive governments.
Although “the favourable tax treatment of property investment” accounted for about 50% of house price increases between 2001 and 2007, the working group said, there was also strong evidence that rapid swings in immigration brought about price-rise “shocks”.
There was a sharp spike in immigration in 2001, 2002 and 2003 and, said working group committee member Dr Andrew Coleman, it appeared that property prices did not fall anywhere near as greatly when immigration fell again.
The report added that there was little evidence that immigration boosted local incomes. In fact, the need to build roads and schools meant that net migration contributed to the national deficit. ”
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/4622459/Government-policies-blamed-for-house-prices
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September 9, 2012 7:45pm
nasska

Griff

The foundations of the local kirk would be at risk if I joined a church grope.

Agree that horses seem to hold more interest for the fair sex but with that much nooky on offer you’d think the average young bloke would risk a little discomfort! 🙂
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September 9, 2012 7:45pm
Reid

If the ‘burqa & curtain’ thing was a solitary symbol of another culture similar say to a Maori tattoo, a red dot on an Indian woman’s forehead or a fat gut on an American I too wouldn’t give the practice a thought.

But it isn’t! It began as a symbol of oppression against women in a primitive Abrahamic tribal society, it hasn’t changed an iota anywhere in the world where Muslims immigrate to & it won’t change unless change is forced onto them.

You view the primitives downgrading of half of society & write it off as as a cultural quirk……it isn’t.

Anthropologically I think you can trace this back to a combination of religion and culture. These people didn’t have our background of the rural-city migration which appears to generate advancement through close association and idea sharing and propagation. This was the culture of most Muslim’s until round about the sixties/seventies whereas we’ve had a hundred year head-start. That’s the difference, as I see it. They’ll get there. They’re just not ready yet. Isn’t it a shame the US hasn’t used its influence over Saudi-Arabia for example to require them to change over this, lest they lose say, MFN status. That’s the logical step isn’t it. I wonder why they haven’t done that?
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September 9, 2012 7:47pm
hj

Q+ A sounds like the interviewer is really pissed off because the Govt wants to discourage boat people. As he pointed out a steel hulled vessel went all the way to Canada. The race relations conciliator calls it discriminatory joining many on the left who want open borders (and far salaries for themselves).
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September 9, 2012 7:51pm
nasska

An elderly Scots couple in a retirement community was surprised by
a knock on their door late one night. Sandy, the husband
got up to answer the door, only to find a huge and intimidating
man staring back at him.

“Oh, terrible this is! I’m going to be robbed and I’ll lose all my money!”
the old man screamed.

“I’m not a robber,” said the man in disgust. “I am a rapist.”

“Oh, thank goodness!” said Sandy with much
relief. Then he shouted, “Jessie, it’s for you!”
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September 9, 2012 8:00pm
Griff

I had a near death experience that has changed me forever. The other day I went horsesback riding. Everything was going fine until the horse started bouncing out of control. I tried with all my might to hang on, but was thrown off. Just when things could not possibly get worse, my foot gets caught in the stirrup. When this happened, I fell head first to the ground. My head continued to bounce harder as the horse did not stop or even slow down. Just as I was giving up hope and losing consciousness, the K mart manager came and unplugged it. Thank Goodness for heroes!
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September 9, 2012 8:12pm
nasska

Reid

You may be on to something with the anthropology. I somehow feel that Muslims are starting from a greater handicap than a hundred years. Essentially nothing in Islam has changed in 1400 years & the culture of the time & the faith are so interwoven as to be nearly inextricable.

Add to that, we in the West are not standing still…in some ways the gap is widening
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September 9, 2012 8:27pm
Reid

The difference between our thinking and theirs lies in our relative priorities the west gives vs what the Muslim world gives.

I believe nasska that the ‘war on terror’ propaganda capitalises on people’s fear of religion, by propagating over decades in a gradually gradually slice the elephant type of timeline, through exploiting the secularism of the western world where many if not most these days profess no spiritual practices, which in it’s adherents, generates an ignorance of what it means to be religious. And they capitalise on that by pretending that someone really really really really religious as we, the west, see them that THEREFORE, inextricably, they have to be fanatics. Using this, they generate fear, which is always the precursor to lashing out. But it’s not real. But that’s what the ultimate objective of all the ‘war on terror’ propaganda is and sadly, it’s working well.
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September 9, 2012 8:55pm
my 2 cents

rubbish, reid and nassaka.
have either of you read the koran and the sira cover to cover.
it is the only way to understand the constitutional position of women in islam and non muslims as well.
that means 100 years won’t change the underlying structure of their ideology as it posits back to the koran and what Muhammed did.
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September 9, 2012 9:03pm
Griff

Historians now combing court records in 15th-17th Century Europe (themselves asking new questions about sex and sexuality) find that while Juliet’s father might bully his daughter into his choice of husband, if that didn’t work he could always get the suitor to finish off the job for him.

Once the threshold was crossed, the young woman was used goods and marriage was the only option. As such, this was merely an extension of a deeper view of women imbedded not just in law but also in the religious culture that informed it. Many may shiver at fundamentalist Islam’s view of women now, but for centuries Christianity peddled an equally fertile line in misogyny.

Women, basically, were the problem. Such was their irresistible temptation to men, that for the well-being of society they had to be controlled. Either through flesh and blood marriage or to the only other man who would do – Christ in a convent.
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September 9, 2012 9:03pm
Reid

have either of you read the koran and the sira cover to cover.
it is the only way to understand the constitutional position of women in islam and non muslims as well.

Yes but that wasn’t what we were discussing m2c so so, cogito ergo sum plus infinity times a million, there…

that means 100 years won’t change the underlying structure of their ideology as it posits back to the koran and what Muhammed did.

…and we weren’t talking about that, either.
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September 9, 2012 9:06pm
nasska

….”as we, the west, see them that THEREFORE, inextricably, they have to be fanatics. “……

The problem is who defines fanatics. To me you may be religious yet to a Muslim you are an unbeliever & a hopeless sinner so there’s a wide range already. Generally I consider anyone who’s faith has addled their thinking & reduced their life to hate,faith & jihad is slightly uncool in the head.

Regrettably & for opaque reasons this describes too many Muslims both inside & outside of our borders.
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September 9, 2012 9:08pm
Reid

To me you may be religious yet to a Muslim you are an unbeliever & a hopeless sinner so there’s a wide range already.

Propaganda-city Arizona.

To me you may be religious yet to a Muslim you are an unbeliever; a hopeless sinner so there’s a wide range already.

nasska with deepest respect, do you really know the extent to which the Koran is literally interpreted in the Muslim world? Amongst the 1.3 billion of them, why imagine that every single Muslim takes every single word in the Koran with deadly seriousness, when you live in a society of Christians who as you can see, aren’t fanatical at all? Why not imagine the Muslim world is just like ours, where most people even those who are particularly religious, most of them, like us, are mild. Why is it impossible to imagine that maybe, just maybe, their societies might have exactly the same variations and proportions of nuts and fanatics as ours does? I mean just think about some of the militia outfits the FBI needs to keep eyes on. Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, the scary ones who make the news are about the same proportion in the Muslim world as those militias are in the US? It’s just the western MSM for some mysterious purpose don’t seem to investigate that possibility very much, do they. I wonder whether the trillions tied up in defence contracts has anything to do with it. Isn’t that cynical.
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September 9, 2012 9:30pm
Griff

We forget how far we have come only a few years ago you could rape and beat your wife at will You may have got odd looks and scorn but the law was never involved. The more enlightened Muslim countries are only a few years behind the west Were as parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan etc are still in a tribal and feudal stages of progress towards civilization In some ways I do view the usa as a Christian theocracy in reference to its persecution of Muslim The willingness to ignore the sovereignty of other states displayed by the usa is a strange perversion of its crys of freedom and democracy for all. The Indian and Chinese people have been civilized for far longer than the west. There synthesis of capitalism and there own cultures alows them to rapidly catch and maybe eclipse as in a few generations I can not see the same outcome for the Muslims world due to the constraints of their superstitions,Some of The Muslims I know certainly have some very strange superstitions as well as their faith even with living in a modern secular society for a generation. The hindi I know seem to drop all their superstitions s trappings rapidly and adapt quickly to our culture
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September 9, 2012 9:49pm
Manolo

As expected: it did not take long for the Stone Agers to claim the wind. The Milky Way is next.

Claimant spokesman, David Rankin of Te Matarahurahi hapu, says they believe wind can be classed as a taonga – a treasured possession – and if used for commercial gain, Maori should be entitled to a share.

“This is part of a global struggle for indigenous property rights,” he said.
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September 10, 2012 6:37am
Manolo

Read and weep: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2200555/The-British-child-brides-Muslim-mosque-leaders-agree-marry-girl-12–long-parents-dont-tell-anyone.html?ICO=most_read_module
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September 10, 2012 6:53am

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