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September 5, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 5 September 2012

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General Debate

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barry

Looks like this water thing is going to heat up. I even get the impression that the Maori Council wants a confrontation with the PM.
They either think theyve got a winable case or they think he will cave in – or both. Whatever the case its starting to look at bit of a problem for the PM.
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September 5, 2012 8:13am
Keeping Stock

If Maori want to claim the benefits of the wind, could they please send someone around to my place to help clean up the trees that came down in the storm a few months ago 😛
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September 5, 2012 8:15am
Hamnida

Another sunny day, another day further away from asset sales.
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September 5, 2012 8:19am
barry

I didnt hear the news earlier – but there is now a claim to the Waitangi tribunal for rights to WIND (not – not intestinal type – but the type that turns turbines on tops of hills).

A few years ago there was a carton about maori claims to the very air we breath…… well it might be closer than John Key thought.

What a good forsaken shambles. No wonder a lot of young people bugger off to Ausy.
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September 5, 2012 8:19am
Keeping Stock

No Hamnida; it’s another day closer to asset sales 😀
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September 5, 2012 8:26am
nonpartisan

You want to make money from turbines, bloody well buy some with the millions in settlement money you have already received and set up your own wind farm.

Nah, ’tis easier to wait for non-Maori to do all the work and then just sit on your arse and punch the ticket. Parasites.

I just want to know what it’s going to take to get the bludgers hands out of this tax-payer’s pockets.
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September 5, 2012 8:31am
flipper

If the hamfisted one is correct, it is another day closer to Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, France and, sotto voce, Britain and USofA (aka Obamination).
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September 5, 2012 8:31am
graham

I wonder if David Rankin is a fan of The Bastard Operator from Hell?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/03/09/bofh_protecting_bodily_waste/
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September 5, 2012 8:35am
hj

Gareth Morgan: the treaty in plain language:

What had Cabinet been smoking when it thought it could just push through sale of government assets without consulting Maori first? Have these folk never read the Treaty of Waitangi let alone got to grips with the post-1975 status of that Accord? Article Two is not that difficult to understand – let’s just put it in dumbed-down simple English.

Anything in this country that has not been sold by Maori in a willing seller, willing buyer deal is Maori property. The only reason Maori can’t have it is that the Waitangi Act says Maori cannot claim private property, and it’s up to the government to negotiate a settlement with Maori should they claim government property, including the government’s right (given it has the supreme power) to just turn Maori away if agreement cannot be reached.
http://garethsworld.com/blog/economics/government-delay-in-asset-sales-reflects-ignorance-of-the-treaty/#disqus_thread

How many politicians who support the Maori position hide outside the Maori and Mana Parties? The Greens need smoking out.
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September 5, 2012 8:37am
Manolo

Let’s have a hui, eat some kai and drink some grog to consider how to extract more money from this gullible government and its subjects: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10831805
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September 5, 2012 8:38am
Pete George

Clare Curran made some strange accusations last night – all I did was point out her hypocrisy in criticising Bill English’s availability to the public when she doesn’t respond to me and blocks me in social media. Her response even had Whale baffled.

Either I’m not who I say I am, or as Keeping Stock would say this is a major Curran SMOG. I
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September 5, 2012 8:40am
Keeping Stock

Here’s more proof that Rod Emmerson from the Herald is the best cartoonist out there at the moment. You could say that this one is “priceless” 😀

http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2012/09/emmerson-on-sir-ted.html
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September 5, 2012 8:43am
Pete George

And wait, there’s more. I commenetd on Red Alert this morning and that has disappeared, I wonder if that was due to Clare ‘I believe in free speech’ Curran.
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September 5, 2012 8:45am
Griff

Love it
We are paying for the whole griever industry
Moari council
Wiatangi tribunal
The lawyers the leaders the whole smeging lot
Simple fix no money no jigy jig
Hopefully the hands out and shrill voices of the grievers keeps up
And the do we need white guilt or not question becomes the central debate in the next election
Because the result will be pull the pin on funding the greedy stone age extortion industry
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September 5, 2012 8:47am
James Stephenson

It’s time we came up with some creative ways to pay for these ridiculous water, wind, radiospectrum…whathaveyougot claims that the Waitangi Tribunal appears to exist to rubber-stamp.

The obvious one, under the “partnership” principle of the treaty is that what us white fellas brought to the party, was the technology, so we should be charging a licencing fee for its usage to be passed on to maori benefitting from it.

Power’s an easy one, just add a technology surcharge to maori power bills, but what else could we devise?

How about “Maori miles” – like diesel miles, but for any maori wanting to use cars, with a premium version if you want to use that car on a sealed road.

It’s going to be an expensive business for any maori wanting to submit a document to government, because there’s a tarif for the written alphabet, and then you’ll need to pay the Chinese community for the paper technology (I feel sorry for them, they’ve kind of missed the peak on that technology eh?).

Any more for any more…?
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September 5, 2012 8:48am
wreck1080

I’m waiting for maoris to make a claim on other natural resources now , such as air space.

Any aircraft passing through and polluting the air will be required to pay an ‘iwi’ tax.

And, how about a ’roundness tax’. NZ was curved in a certain way back when maori lived here. Development has changed the shape of the land thus ‘annoying’ the taniwha who now needs cash to let him get back to watching sky tv, drinking, and smoking his cannabis in peace.

This reminds of me snakeoil salesmen in the wild west—- except of course, the salesmen are the maoris now.
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September 5, 2012 8:55am
Nookin

“They either think theyve got a winable case or they think he will cave in – or both. Whatever the case its starting to look at bit of a problem for the PM.”

Maybe not. Maybe, just maybe there will be a huge groundswell against opportunistic money grabbing. We have had much the same approach to water ususage for at least 50 years. Nothing will change as a result in the transfer of shares in an existing company. The only thing new is the political opportunity to screw the government for a slice of the pie.
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September 5, 2012 8:57am
graham

I’m confused on just where Maori are coming from on the whole water issue.

My initial understanding was that Maori were NOT in it ‘just for the money’. Rather, they were coming from a historical position of having spiritual connections to the water, seeing themselves as guardians of this precious resource, stuff like that. And I thought their concern was that they had a say in maintaining the ‘purity’ of water and waterways – things like making sure that our pristine lakes stayed pristine, that rivers were not polluted, things like that. You know, all the ‘touchy-feely’ stuff that the Greens like to talk about. And I could respect that, I honestly could.

Maybe I was just too naive.

Because now, it seems more and more that it is turning into a cynical money-grab. Or at least, that’s how the media seem to be portraying it. And I realise that there is disagreement within the Maori community (newsflash: just like the rest of us, not all Maori think the same way or necessarily agree with those people who claim to represent them – I know, what a surprise).

So who to believe? The media? Those Maori who claim to have pure, spiritual, historical ties to the water? I don’t know.
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September 5, 2012 9:00am
kowtow

james stephenson

For the sake of argument ,say your fee system was adopted,how long would it be before an amendment was tacked on to get the tax payer to pay for all the fees and premiums or be allowed through tax deductions?

As it stands the taxpayer pays for Maori to sue him for more and more of his hard earned money,how nuts is that?

Easiest is scrap all mention of the darned treaty ,all race based legislation etc. One country ,one law,one nation.
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September 5, 2012 9:01am
jaba

the Maori (sorry, can’t do macons) grieviences will NEVER go away unless someone (a Govt) is willing to tell them NO and see out the hikoi’s .. I would suspect this will help the likes of ACT if they play the game properly (and this is a game with potential consequences that are aweful).
remember Mt Cook, Mt Egmont, the hill in Whangarei, Wanganui, the changing of English names to Maori ones, changing Maori street names by including Te, special rights for Maori nurses (diffent exams/training), Fishery quotas, Foresrty, foreshore and seabed and now water and wind. If I had time I’m sure I could come up with more.
We are not one nation .. and sad to say it will get worse
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September 5, 2012 9:02am
Keeping Stock

I was banned from Red Alert midway through last year for making a flippant “nek minnit” comment about Phil Goff and asset sales. People went in to bat for me afterwards, which drew this response from Ms Curran:

Jem and others: Inventory2 was banned for several reasons. He was personally offensive and he lied. A number of others who comment regularly in a similar vein are running close to the line and are on notice.

For the record, I completely reject the allegations by Clare Curran that I was personally offensive and a liar. Those who have engaged with me online know that. I am still banned at Red Alert, and I can’t remember the last time I visited the site.

Clare Curran might support free speech. But it is very much free speech on her terms, which doesn’t make it very free at all IMHO.
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September 5, 2012 9:04am
jims_whare

Hmmm John Key – what was it you said about changing the smacking law if innocent parents got prosecuted?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7613812/Dad-given-supervision-for-hitting-children

Opps deafening silence from the ninth floor
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September 5, 2012 9:04am
SGA

@jims_whare

I did find the bit about using a metal coal shovel to spank your children rather odd. Didn’t you?
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September 5, 2012 9:12am
nonpartisan

Maybe I was just too naive.

Because now, it seems more and more that it is turning into a cynical money-grab. Or at least, that’s how the media seem to be portraying it.

graham, listening to David Rankin on Newstalk ZB last night was very enlightening. You may have heard it. Fortunately, he was being really honest about the fact that while he doesn’t buy into the “Maori Wind Deity” claptrap, he knows that that is what you have to spout to get the necessary backing from the Waitangi Tribunal. They are cynically playing a game for their own ends, no two ways about it.
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September 5, 2012 9:16am
James Stephenson

@kowtow – of course you are correct, probably in both statements, but definitely with respect to “easiest is…”

I’m just figuring that we need a counterbalancing negotiating position to show up exactly how piss-taking these maori claims are. Plus, I’m wondering if I can get a personal divvy out of Kiwirail for my ancestor’s invention (and Loopy Len’s rail loop is starting to look a much better idea than previously too!)
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September 5, 2012 9:17am
Pete George

Clare Curran might support free speech. But it is very much free speech on her terms, which doesn’t make it very free at all IMHO.

She must come from the lprent school of free speech.

It’s not just MPs, Labour activists very actively bash speech and speakers they don’t like. And similar to Curran they make things up, her accusations were very similar (and as wrong) as accusations at The Standard – based on nothing but their paranoic friend or enemy imaginations.
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September 5, 2012 9:20am
graham

nonpartisan: Nope, didn’t listen to the radio last night – too busy ferrying my daughter around. 🙂

I’ve glanced through the Waitangi Tribunal’s letter to the Government. It starts off in the right way, by talking about water in historical terms:

… Maori people relied on their rivers, lakes, and other water resources for much of their daily food, their clothing and housing, transport and trade, and the other physical necessities of life. This made the water resources highly valued taonga (treasured possessions).

But the water bodies were also valued for spiritual and cultural reasons. Rivers and other water bodies could be living beings or ancestors. In whakapapa, Maori had kin relationships with these water bodies. Each had its own mauri (life force), its taniwha (spirit guardians), and a central place in tribal identity. And access was jealously guarded and controlled. Travelling by waka, fishing, or other forms of use were only by permission of the tribe which held mana over those waters. The importance of these water bodies to Maori cannot be overstated.

All good stuff. This is where I thought Maori were originally coming from – seeing the water as treasured resources, with spiritual and cultural significance.

But then we get to the point:

As we discuss in chapter 1 of our report, the claimants do not seek to benefit from noncommercial uses of the water bodies in which they have these proprietary rights. Nor do they seek a commercial benefit from uses that do not generate an income stream. What they do seek is recognition of their property rights, payment for the commercial use of water in which they have property rights (particularly its use for electricity generation), and enhanced authority and control in how their taonga are used.

In other words, give us the money.

(Edit: I find it interesting to look at the order of that last sentence. Property rights are listed first; payment for using the water is listed second; and the part that I originally thought would be most important is listed last, almost as an after-thought.)
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September 5, 2012 9:20am
Pete George

James Stephenson:

I’m just figuring that we need a counterbalancing negotiating position to show up exactly how piss-taking these maori claims are.

It’s worth piss-taking the piss-takers, to an extent.

But a more powerful counterbalance would be a counter campaign to water and air right claims – we should start a Water and Air for All campaign, claiming a universal stake in recirculating natural resources.
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September 5, 2012 9:29am
Griff

Its telling if the measured voices of posters like Keeping Stock and PG are being censored on the mainstream lefty blogs
We manage to survive on here with a very stand off moderation regime. If you step to far out side of decency or sense the feedback from other posters is in most cases enough to change behaviour, Why do the left find it imposable to operate like this? They claim to be liberal yet seem to be extremely authoritarian when it comes to new ideas or criticism. Is it avoidance of cognitive dissonance that drives their censorship?
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September 5, 2012 9:30am
nonpartisan

David Rankin said that as long as state assets remain in public hands then his tribe had no interest in making a claim (for the wind), but as soon as assets for electricity generation are up for sale then his tribe will demand payment for commercial use of their property (i.e. the wind). Exactly the same argument as for the water. I can’t fault his logic really, grant the water claims and you have to seriously consider the wind claims.

A very firm no to all of this is what is required right now. I won’t hold my breath.
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September 5, 2012 9:31am
graham

Go dig a long-drop next to an orchard that Maori own, use it for a couple of years, then put in a claim for Maori using your intellectual property to enrich their fruit.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/03/09/bofh_protecting_bodily_waste/
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September 5, 2012 9:33am
Keeping Stock

@ Pete George – Clare Curran is a subscriber to the doctrine of “owning the message”. In other circles it is referred to as “capturing the language” or “framing”, and former Act MP Muriel Newman wrote an interesting article about it a few years ago when Curran first cam on to the political scene:

“Framing” is the political left’s new buzzword for what used to be called brainwashing. It has been developed into an art form by George Lakoff, Professor of Linguistics at Berkley University and forms the basis of a paper prepared by communications consultant Claire Curran for last month’s Labour Party’s Southland Regional Conference. Called “Language Matters: Setting agendas – taking charge of the debate”, the paper describes the necessity of capturing the language for the center-left if Labour is to win the next election. It provides an insight into their communication strategy.

The key message delivered in the paper is that Labour must take control of the language: “This paper is about Labour taking greater charge of the language of debate and discussion in New Zealand . It is called ‘re-framing’ and it means gaining (or regaining) the use of concepts and phrases that spark public and media interest. If you control the language, you control the message. The media doesn’t create the message, they run with it”.

This concept is, of course, the central tenet of political correctness, a mechanism developed in the 1920s to help advance communism. Writer and long-time commentator on communism in Cuba, Agustin Blazquez, in an article “Political Correctness: the scourge of our times”, describes it this way: “Political Correctness remains just what it was intended to be: a sophisticated and dangerous form of censorship and oppression, imposed upon the citizenry with the ultimate goal of manipulating, brainwashing and destroying our society”.

The Curran paper explains: “Despite being in power for more than six years, Labour’s framework is not clearly understood by a confused and sometimes unhappy electorate.

http://www.nzcpr.com/weekly34.htm

This is nothing more than one would expect from a committed socialist such as Clare Curran. Unfortunately for her, she’s doing it in the full glare of negative publicity, and if she can’t recognise how much her attempts at censorship bring scorn on the Labour Party, she’s not the communications expert she professes to be.
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September 5, 2012 9:33am
Pete George

It’s not just Curran. The Standard try it frequently.

And David Clark, my own electorate MP, has blocked me on Facebook and Twitter. He doesn’t have the confidence to argue his own case so he tries to stop arguments against. By actively avoiding scrutiny it results in a very shallow argument for what he promotes.
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September 5, 2012 9:39am
graham

nonpartisan: I would have thought that water claims can be differentiated from wind claims? As per my post at 9:20, the Waitangi Tribunal stated that:

Maori people relied on their rivers, lakes, and other water resources for much of their daily food, their clothing and housing, transport and trade, and the other physical necessities of life …. the water bodies were also valued for spiritual and cultural reasons … access was jealously guarded and controlled. Travelling by waka, fishing, or other forms of use were only by permission of the tribe which held mana over those waters.

So Maori used the water – fished from it, used it for travel, and so on. But what did they use the wind for??? Surely this has to be questioned. I can understand maybe a claim of ‘spiritual significance’ – but I’m struggling to think of any practical uses the Maori would have been making of the wind in 1850.
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September 5, 2012 9:39am
nonpartisan

Other than breathing it like we all do. 🙂
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September 5, 2012 9:41am
Ross12

nonpartisan @ 9.31.

Is David Rankin suggesting the SOE’s are not commercial enterprises ??
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September 5, 2012 9:42am
kowtow

Folk who feel miffed at Clare Curran and censorship would do well to remember that these self same people will bring that attitude to government and the law.

All part of the comrade’s long history of command and control . This is what I can’t understand about the so called “right” and how easily they sem to have given up their philosophy on individual responsibility and small government ,in terms of tobacco,parenting,marriage,”indigenous”rights etc

It amounts to a capitulation.
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September 5, 2012 9:44am
graham

Well that’s fine, then. No problem. Because as per the Waitangi Tribunal’s letter about water:

… the claimants do not seek to benefit from noncommercial uses of the water bodies in which they have these proprietary rights. Nor do they seek a commercial benefit from uses that do not generate an income stream.

‘Breathing’ has not yet been commercialised. Therefore, Maori obviously won’t seek to benefit from it.

Sorted. 🙂
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September 5, 2012 9:44am
James Stephenson

But a more powerful counterbalance would be a counter campaign to water and air right claims – we should start a Water and Air for All campaign, claiming a universal stake in recirculating natural resources

No. It’s much bigger than that Pete, it’s about time that there was official recognition, if we’re going to have all this “partnership” and “treaty principles” bollocks invented out of thin air, that the later-than-Maori colonisers of this country brought their own “taonga” with them in the form of skills and technology that, so far, Maori have had access to for free.

If Maori want cash for the use of rivers, instead of putting that in the partnership pot for good of the whole country, then it cuts both fucking ways. Either that, or go back to fishing from a canoe with a bone hook and using your rivers to transport stuff rather than our roads.
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September 5, 2012 9:45am
backster

3 STEPS TO SUPPORT THE DECLARATION OF EQUALITY:
DECLARATION OF EQUALITY

There shall be one law for all New Zealanders…

– no references to the Treaty of Waitangi in any constitutional document or legislation
– no race-based Parliamentary seats
– no race-based local body seats
– no Waitangi Tribunal

1. Do you believe all New Zealanders should be equal in the eyes of the law?

2. If so, sign the Declaration of Equality HERE

3. Forward this email on to your contacts

Thanks for helping to build a better future for all New Zealanders. http://www.nzcpr.com/petition_EqualRights.php
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September 5, 2012 9:47am
nonpartisan

nonpartisan @ 9.31.

Is David Rankin suggesting the SOE’s are not commercial enterprises ??

I gathered from this interview that his position would be that if the SOE’s are returning funds to the public (via the Government), then that is ok by him and his tribe. No claim required.
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September 5, 2012 9:48am
nonpartisan

Well that’s fine, then. No problem. Because as per the Waitangi Tribunal’s letter about water:

… the claimants do not seek to benefit from noncommercial uses of the water bodies in which they have these proprietary rights. Nor do they seek a commercial benefit from uses that do not generate an income stream.

‘Breathing’ has not yet been commercialised. Therefore, Maori obviously won’t seek to benefit from it.

Sorted.

Ah, but wind turbines do generate an income stream. This is the enterprise that they want a piece of.
And from what I can gather, the wind claim is based solely on spiritual significance.
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September 5, 2012 9:50am
hj

Give the maoris everything they want until it gets to the sublimely ridiculous and then have the revolt and one law for all (as it should be) situation. In a way that is what we are doing, smoking out the reality of the injustice of justice where aboriginal title and /or te tiriti is hounoured to the letter.
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September 5, 2012 9:51am
hj

Why the hell do we fund “Maori studies”? Have not they been studied?
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September 5, 2012 9:56am
graham

Ah, but wind turbines do generate an income stream. This is the enterprise that they want a piece of.
And from what I can gather, the wind claim is based solely on spiritual significance.

But wind turbines hadn’t been thought of when the Treaty was signed. How can you justify claiming for something developed 150 years after the period of history being referred to?

And if the wind claim is based on spiritual significance – exactly what impact does a wind turbine have on the wind?
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September 5, 2012 10:02am
Redbaiter

“This is what I can’t understand about the so called “right” and how easily they seem to have given up their philosophy on individual responsibility and small government ,in terms of tobacco, parenting, marriage, ”indigenous”rights etc. It amounts to a capitulation.”

Yes, most of them have, but not this writer.

Never have capitulated and never will.

Fuck the commies and fuck their blind brain damaged supporters on the so called “right”.
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September 5, 2012 10:04am
graham

More to the point, go back to my original statement.

How were the Maori using the wind in 1850? What advantages, what benefits was the wind providing to Maori?

(Besides breathing :). Anyway you don’t breathe the wind, you breathe the air, surely)
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September 5, 2012 10:06am
lilman

My wife of many years is important to me and my family.
Our 4 children are busy,honest and caring kids,like most others in our district.
My wifes family mostly are good people,all work and pay taxes.
Sporting and community people are their friends and they take a full part in daily community life.
My wife is embarassed as are my kids at the stance of their Maori leaders.As my young daughter say”they are just making things harder”.
Not all Maori think of gravences as a right or way of life.They cringe at Hone and kind.
What concerns me is that all Maori are Labelled by white New Zealand as rabid money grabbers.
My son leaving for University soon says his outlook is driven by the need to stand on his own to feet.Against our advice , if its in place use it,he refuses to take up special funding because he is Maori as he says his mates get nothing so why should he.
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September 5, 2012 10:08am
James Stephenson

But wind turbines hadn’t been thought of when the Treaty was signed. How can you justify claiming for something developed 150 years after the period of history being referred to?

Yeah but windmills had been around forever, there was a windmill on the site of (I think) the Langham Hotel in Auckland that was built in the 1850s. Did the owners ever pay local Maori a royalty?
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September 5, 2012 10:13am
graham

lilman, as I said at 9:00 –

Newsflash: just like the rest of us, not all Maori think the same way or necessarily agree with those people who ‘claim’ to represent them.

What a surprise.
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September 5, 2012 10:14am
kowtow

Keeping stock

Clare Curran and language. If we subscribe to the notion that PC language control is part of a leftist ploy/plot (which of course it is) then when will conservatives push back against its constant use and normalisation?

Yesterday we had the “chair” of the ACC . Gender neutral terms ,the creation of MS instead of Miss,firefighters,one that really pisses me, “fishers” instead of fishermen.

And if people think this is trivial ,it’s the foot in the door,like the undefined “treaty principles”.Small beginnings on the road to “equality” or redressing injustices or whatever cause one wishes to advocate.
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September 5, 2012 10:15am
hj

I think we need to look at the treaty and acknowledge that it wasn’t made in good faith but rather the belief that Maori would be assimilated. No one would have thought that 172 years later, loads of intermarriage etc Maori still aren’t assimilated and are trying to test the treaty to the letter.
It should be acknowledged that the treaty really is a bad deal for non Maori rather than “celebrating” as though it was.
Maori should therefore be seen as rent seekers. Te ao Maori and the PR departments “Maori Cultural Advantage” needs debunking.
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September 5, 2012 10:16am
kowtow

graham

Don’t you worry boy. When it comes to a claim they and the lawyers we pay for them to milk us will come up with something.

Wind ,that lovely sound made by pois twirling in the air as the maidens strengthen their wrists in preparation for massacre.
Wind, drove our fleets from Hawaiiki to this fair land
Wind, we breath it and it gives us life…..

See that wasn’t hard.

Shit, I should go work for ’em.
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September 5, 2012 10:20am
graham

James Stephenson: Good point, completely forgot about windmills 🙁

Did Maori use windmills?

And in a curious twist of fate: The windmill you mention was built by Charles Partington, whose mill landed a lucrative contract to supply the Army troops with food during the Maori Land Wars. Charles Partington, it turns out, also just happens to be the grandfather of one C F Goldie.
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September 5, 2012 10:20am
hj

What concerns me is that all Maori are Labelled by white New Zealand as rabid money grabbers.
……
I think when white NZ’rs are talking about “Maori” chances are they mean the ones making the news. I never think for a moment that all Maori think like that. Unfortunately the political system and news media bring muck to the surface,
.
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September 5, 2012 10:20am
Griff

This is telling on the direction the constitutional review will take
http://www2.justice.govt.nz/cap-interim/Engagement.html
Budget
56. We will deliver our independent engagement programme and advice to Ministers within the
funding allocated to our work. We understand this funding is managed for us by the Ministry
of Justice.
57. We understand the Consideration has been allocated funding of $2.1 million within Vote
Justice baseline, and that Ministers have agreed to allocate $2 million within Vote Māori Affairs
to support robust and inclusive engagement on constitutional issues.

The budget has 2.1 million to consult with all the population at large and 2million to consult specificity with maori A race based biased allocation of resources to give a race based biased outcome
The frequent reference to moari and iwi etc within all documents tells is that the view of less than 15 % will be given equal or more weight than the view of the other 85 %

The whole process is a blatant attempt to enshrine the moarifaction of New Zealand into a new constitution
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September 5, 2012 10:27am
Ross12

nonpartisan @ 9.48.

Thanks for that. It is what I thought is was –purely political on the part of David Rankin , nothing to do with Maori rights/claims.
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September 5, 2012 10:30am
jaba

I am the wind and the wind is me
James S at 9:45 .. well said, hard to argue with if we accept the water/wind argument
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September 5, 2012 10:31am
nonpartisan

What concerns me is that all Maori are Labelled by white New Zealand as rabid money grabbers.
……
I think when white NZ’rs are talking about “Maori” chances are they mean the ones making the news. I never think for a moment that all Maori think like that. Unfortunately the political system and news media bring muck to the surface,

Yeah, this includes me too. I say I’m angry at “Maori” at the moment, but only the ones putting forth ridiculous claims. The lovely Maori woman I work alongside refers to them as “the troublemakers”.
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September 5, 2012 10:32am
nonpartisan

Ross12 @ 10.30.

Thanks for that. It is what I thought is was –purely political on the part of David Rankin , nothing to do with Maori rights/claims.

Yes, the claim is directly tied to the asset sales debate. David Rankin was quite open and honest about this.
In all honesty, he sounds like the kind of guy I could have a good beer and a chat with. Just not on this issue.
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September 5, 2012 10:35am
Griff

Few of us are racist if you seek to be a full member of New Zealand society as a equal most don’t give a pile of smeg if your ancestors were Polynesian British Chinese or from any other place. It is the concept of race based differences that is racist.
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September 5, 2012 10:40am
Fletch

The Number One Bestselling book on Amazon at the moment: No Easy Day: The Only First-hand Account of the Navy Seal Mission that Killed Osama bin Laden.

It’s written by a Navy Seal who was actually there when Bin laden was killed and disputes some of the things the White House said about the event. The book was written using a pseudonym, but unfortunately a news network found out his real identity, told the world, and Al Qeada has a death threat out on him, with pictures of him on their website.

http://www.amazon.com/No-Easy-Day-First-hand-ebook/dp/B0094KF4WG/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1346798074&sr=8-1
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September 5, 2012 10:41am
Monique Watson

Do cops drive around in pairs in NZ? I seem to remember some debate a couple of years ago. Just askin because there was a shooting just down the road from us today. Two officers were patrolling together, one got shot by a suspect and his fellow officer shot and killed the perp.

http://nowoccupy.blogspot.com/2012/09/shooting-in-our-neighbourhood.html
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September 5, 2012 10:43am
tedbear

Well, I’m up up n away tomorrow for a nice long overseas holiday to Wales and Costa del Sol while I can.

Pretty soon the Maori will want to charge the airlines that fly through their air so then I’ll have to pay extra tax for this privelege.

I read this morning Maori want to ban or reduce duty free baccy now too.

ho hum
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September 5, 2012 10:45am
Redbaiter

That so called Maori have the nerve to even consider claiming for wind and water is a measure of how weak and gutless the rest of NZ is.

Whine and complain all you want now, the time to do this was decades ago when this bullshit first started.

Yet you all clamoured for it like brain washed fucking lemmings.

As good an example of the old adage “You reap what you sow” as you could ask for.

Blind to racism/ separatism and its outcomes, and so easily manipulated by media pressure groups and dirty little power crazed scheming politicians, you are today getting exactly what anyone with a brain could so easily see was coming.
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September 5, 2012 10:46am
Brian Smaller

You mean it wasn’t GI Obama who pulled the trigger? All the football spiking he did I thought he was the one capping Osama. I bet Obama’s official biographer wont say anything about leaving a high tech stealth helicopter intact on the ground instead of dropping a jdam on it to prevent it falling into Chinese hands (or whoever the Pakistanis sold it to).
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September 5, 2012 10:49am
Manolo

I’m afraid there will never be a NZ politician prepared to say no to the greedy Stone Age tribes, who will continue to claim ownership of everything under the sun.

Key and successors will bend over and over.
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September 5, 2012 10:52am
kowtow

griff @ 1027

…new constitution……

The thing is we have a constitution already. It is made up of a body of laws already in existence as well as decisions made in the courts.That constitution is constantly being changed and amended and maorified.
I think the political elite are happy to do it this way, a creeping incrementalism because ,if it were put to the people it would get the boot.

Did you know a huge percentage of the budget is excepted under annual appropriations ,part of that is treaty settlements so Treaty money is always safe? That’s under the radar.

We have a very sneaky and dangerous form of democracy in this here country.
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September 5, 2012 11:02am
Paulus

I have been regularly dropped from Red Jerk. My message is being moderated and then disappears.
I do not know the feminine of Puerile – but it shows that they cannot take anything that they do not agree with.
Curren should go back to Australia and rejoin the Australian Communist Party from whence she came, and tried to control the language.
I have recently re-read her Language Control Paper – a feminine jerk(ess).
Te Standard is more fun, they take offence more quickly, and are easier to stir up. The Jerk, well is ………………………
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September 5, 2012 11:07am
hj

Lindsay Mitchell:
Awaiting moderation” on Frogblog
Green MP Holly Walker wants to end child poverty in two terms by arriving at a parliamentary accord about the matter. As my subject today was the number of babies born last year relying on welfare by year-end contributing substantially to the child poverty problem, this afternoon I posted the following comment. It has been “awaiting moderation” ever since (now 9:10pm). I don’t know why both Frogblog and Red Alert do this to my comments. I am never rude or abusive.

I released statistics today that show that 22 percent of babies born last year were dependent on a benefit by year-end. This isn’t an aberrant stat. Through good times and bad between one in four and one in five children is added to a new or existing benefit at or shortly after their birth. You won’t solve ‘child poverty’ without reducing this pattern of behaviour.

(BTW, who is Photonz1 who consistently puts up arguments against Green positions? Be nice to know.)
http://lindsaymitchell.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/awaiting-moderation-on-frogblog.html
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September 5, 2012 11:15am
MH

some of this wind comes from Australia…some from Indonesia..some from the British Isles brought to NZ in sailing ships but once divvied up royalties etc. The dangers of tilting at windmills with a wooden taiha for the people of the first breath are considerable. Quotas for unit volume of air,that to be used for human consumption,industry,repayment of ETS recycling or getting hydro-carbons mixed up with dioxides….but if the whiteman can sell air rights above his inner city office block then if we get the right lawyers and a few amendments to the RMA it is a goer,and after all the govt won’t be paying for it, if we get it in the right context,it will be the Crown -as they are more easy to deal with.
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September 5, 2012 11:17am
hj

It would be interesting to have a place for banned comments, with moderators to sort out those worthy of banning?
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September 5, 2012 11:19am
OTGO

James Stephenson and Wreck are on the right track with their earlier posts. The white middle class in NZ is just too comfortable economically to show more outrage than the odd comment on a blog or a few complaints to their mates down at the golf club. The money that goes to Maori annually must be several billion dollars but the average white guy/girl just goes on about his work, looks after his/her family and pays his taxes oblivious to how much of his/her taxes are going to appease the rent seekers. So in the interests of transparency I propose that average white guy/girl gets levied a Maori tax along with his/her PAYE so that he/she can see exactly how much this is costing. Maybe then average white guy/girl will be motivated enough to actually do something about the current situation?
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September 5, 2012 11:20am
tom hunter

I had to laugh at this article the other day about Pants-On-Fire Politics. In the article Smith points out that the whole Paul-Ryan-Is-A-Liar is just another variation on the endless political game of campaigning one-upsmanship designed to constantly place one’s opponents on the defensive where “explaining is losing”:

The revelation that Rep. Paul Ryan may have casually exaggerated his speed in running a marathon is the lastest sign that he’s a pathological liar.
…
And indeed, a casual read could mistake this for evidence about Ryan’s character. It is, in fact, something approaching the opposite: This is how a bogus political narrative gets built.

And guess who went in for this “bogus political narrative”? Why it was good old Morning Report at 7:55am this past Monday. I mostly only listen to a few minutes of their news headlines while driving so perhaps someone else can enlighten me as to whether Radio NZ has conducted any similar brief, hit-job on Obama’s various claims – such as GM being No. 1! I would bet not: doesn’t fit the narrative.

Actually, what is being seen here as “fact-checking” is simply the usual policy disagreements and opinionated arguing. As Smith further points out about Romney’s welfare advertisement:

That spot may play on voter resentment; it may not appeal to better angels; and it may overhype an actual policy move with the verb “gutted”; but as a Chicago Tribune columnist noted, there is an actual policy disagreement (of long standing) here over the work requirement in welfare, and an actual White House policy move to offer exceptions to it. The Romney ad contains heated rhetoric of the genre of Democratic allegations that Ryan would “end” Medicare — but what’s wrong with heated rhetoric? Do the fact checkers now also carry thermometers?

Following on from Ben Smith's article another left-leaner, Mickey Kause, also has a crack at this new “fact-checking” rubbish in the context of the claims and counter-claims over Obama’s screwing the Clinton welfare-to-work reforms – Credulous Fact-Checkers Fall For the 20% scam. The first claims by the GOP turn out to be correct, just like the first claims about the GM plant. The “fact-checkers” either lied or could not be bothered doing sufficient research, something to remember when you next encounter a lefty flourishing some Politifact or other.

It’s funny that we often have people asking why New Zealanders should care about or get involved in political arguments arising out of the USA. But I hear this usually only when the left-wing are losing in the USA: when they’re winning it’s triumphant crowing 24/7 in NZ. In any case, the reason we should get involved is that these are often ideological arguments that will carry over to NZ, and have done so in the past. Certainly the left-wing understand this – which is why the assholes on Morning Report broadcast that little snippet.
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September 5, 2012 11:20am
Griff

Only if we let them kow tow
Hopefully te treaty and stone age greed will stay a controversial topic until the next election and the majority opinion will be considered
even I a rabid atheist would vote CCCP if they came out strongly against the racists 😆
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September 5, 2012 11:21am
tedbear

I am writing to the Maori Party.
Dear Maori Party

If you want my air, water, soil, house and carport made from NZ trees, you have 24 hours to try to do so. After that I’m am away overseas.
I have instructed my neighbours to watch out for you people in the event you try to take from me what you consider you own.

yours faithfully
tedbear
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September 5, 2012 11:25am
grumpyoldhori

Bloody darkies they have not paid their dues to NZ unlike we pure pakeha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI6TRTBZUMM
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September 5, 2012 11:41am
Griff

And this for the anti agw group
http://pc.blogspot.co.nz/2012/09/2-ecologists-on-facts-and-fictions-of.html
just to show that I do read both sides of the debate
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September 5, 2012 11:52am
Manolo

Yes, grumpy. I see NZ turning into PNG in your future.
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September 5, 2012 11:56am
KevinH

The public of New Zealand will in time thank the Maori Council for having the fortitude to take the Government on to ensure that state owned electricity assets are not disposed without full consideration to the Treaty of Waitangi and the wider interests of all New Zealanders. To lose control of our water resources, lakes and rivers, to foreign interests would be an abomination. The Maori Council will seek clarification through the courts that will ultimately benefit all New Zealanders including those who comment on this thread.
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September 5, 2012 12:01pm
Redbaiter

“Bloody darkies they have not paid their dues to NZ unlike we pure pakeha.”

Can’t you read dumbarse. Many commenters have made the point above that NZers of some Maori lineage are as pissed off about this as anyone. As are the Chinese, The Indians, The Afghanis, the Nigerians AND EVERY OTHER FUCKING NEW ZEALANDER.

Gawd I’m sick of your utter KKK style racist/ separatist bullshit (pure pakeha) wrecking this country.
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September 5, 2012 12:04pm
graham

KevinH: You are confusing the debate of ‘Maori Water Rights’ with the debate of ‘State Asset Sales’. The two are not necessarily the same.

And how on earth would the sale of Mighty River Power result in us ‘losing control of our water resources, lakes and rivers, to foreign interests’? How exactly do foreign interests take over our water resources under the auspices of having a controlling stake in running Mighty River Power?
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September 5, 2012 12:07pm
Redbaiter

“The Maori Council will seek clarification through the courts that will ultimately benefit all New Zealanders including those who comment on this thread.”

We’ve already got a democratically elected government. We don’t need no fucking pocket lining parasitical racist and separatist “Maori Council”.
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September 5, 2012 12:08pm
Griff

Paying an extra cost to moari to allow water to go though a turbine is not going to do anything of benefit to any of us not even moari. It will only allow the broocracy to drive bigger BMWs Have any of the treaty settlements made a difference?Not that I have seen quantified in the statistics A larger proportion of Maori live on benefits fill our courts and jails and live at the bottom of society after forty years of te treaty bullshit than before this all was created

Can U stupid apologist not understand that the benefits are not to us all when the ownership or rights are placed in the hands of a racist minority as opposed to remaining with the state were they presently reside.
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September 5, 2012 12:32pm
Yvette

Cabinet rejected most of the Tribunal’s recommendations, which included a national hui and pan-Maori water settlement, and a “shares-plus” deal to give iwi claimants veto rights over management decisions.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7615790/Key-Government-won-t-go-to-water-hui

Veto rights?
Is it not already enshrined in the Mixed Ownership Model Bill 2012 that no share holder other then the Government will hold more than 10% interest and that reflects the Election promise of National, that no more than 49% would be sold, and no more than 10% to any share-holder?

To break this would be to break the Election promise, and the mandate National has to sell?
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September 5, 2012 12:35pm
graham

And now for something completely different …

From the “Seriously? You mean nobody thought of this before?” files:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10831872

“No benefit for people on the run”

Minister of Social Development Paula Bennett has announced people with outstanding arrest warrants will no longer receive a benefit while evading police.

“Of the approximately 15,000 people with a current arrest warrant, around 8,200 are on benefits,” said Mrs Bennett.

“If someone has an unresolved arrest warrant we will stop their benefit until they do the right thing and come forward to the authorities.”

What a good idea. How many other people were, like me, stunned at the thought that we the taxpayer were actually paying a benefit to people with outstanding arrest warrants?!
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September 5, 2012 12:39pm
Lance

Well done Paula!!

No doubt some dickheads from the left will quickly label this racist/ abuse of human rights/ homophobic/ Nazism/ insert latest derogatory label here.
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September 5, 2012 12:43pm
James Stephenson

Wait, there are 15,000 people with a current arrest warrant, and the cops have time to issue speeding tickets to people driving at 111kph?
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September 5, 2012 12:48pm
kowtow

It may not happen here for some time but it will happen. The more the “centre” politically appeases fringe and minority groups the more people will look for alternatives. The same is hapening on the fiscal front. Balanced budgets both personal and national gave way to a debt binge resulting in the current crisis.

The new alternatives will tend to be at the extremes.

The Dutch elections this 12th may see the old labour party there give up it’s leading position to a more extreme left socialist party.Geert Wilders (bless him) continues to do well.

In Northern Ireland,the same thing has happened. The moderate centre has given way to the extremes on both sides.

Evidence of this trend in other European indebted nations too.

If National had stuck to it’s guns instead of going all Maori and soft on social issues like the smacking bill etc , I believe it would have a lot more support .
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September 5, 2012 12:51pm
Pauleastbay

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/7616837/GP-banned-for-prescribing-gay-cure

It would be funny if it wasn’t so scary
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September 5, 2012 12:54pm
Manolo

If National had stuck to it’s guns instead of going all Maori and soft on social issues like the smacking bill etc , I believe it would have a lot more support.

But that requires guiding principles and a determination to stick to them. Something that Key and today’s National Party leadership have abandoned entirely.
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September 5, 2012 12:55pm
kowtow

graham

How hard could it be to link their bloody databases and do something about it?

The Provos discouraged members from signing on ,as surprise surprise it allowed the State to keep tabs on you.That’s 30 years ago!
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September 5, 2012 12:56pm
Manolo

Let’s hope the trend continues: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/obamas-popularity-dips-underwater-for-romney-a-faint-favorability-bounce/
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September 5, 2012 12:59pm
Viking2

You reap what you sew.
The various political parties especially National, have encouraged Maori and part Maori et al to aspire top political and Legal positions. So much so that Maori are the biggest voting block in Parliament.

So how do any of you expect Key or anyone else other than a Helen to rebuff the constant drip drip drip that wears away the stone.

You all have yourselves to blame except dear I say it Redbaiter and indeed myself.I have been warning this would happen for years. You are now fucked, like it or not.

Of you don’t like it then you need more white blooded rednecks in Parliament so the Treaty can be consigned to the annals of history along with it multitude of interpretations.
Now even if Red agree with that there is no way his current love the conservatives will ever do that.
You all had your chance but failed to learn and understand the policy that was core ACT.

Want to change these things then you need to stand up for what is right and principled rather than socialism and expediency.
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September 5, 2012 1:06pm
Brian Smaller

I didn’t see Maori Council on the ballot at the last election.
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September 5, 2012 1:20pm
Manolo

This talentless woman is a “brilliant” star of the Labour Party. Figure that out.
Telling companies what to broadcast and us, peasants, what to watch.

http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8527737/tv-ignoring-nzs-paralympians-labour

Fuck off, Mrs Curran.
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September 5, 2012 1:38pm
Pete George

The Clare Curran hypocrisy continues, after giving Bill English two barrels for not being available enough to the public she effectively called me a liar, refuses to engage and now (presumably) is blocking (aka censorship) any right of reply on Red Alert.

Addressing Clare Curran’s refusal to engage.

But as a communication expert Clare will be able to work out why Labour has become so disconnected from the public. Yeah, left.
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September 5, 2012 1:42pm
Redbaiter

“You reap what you sew.”

Sow sow sow sow……………..!!!!!!

SOW SOW for fuck’s fucken sake..!!!!
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September 5, 2012 1:47pm
Manolo

“A good woman, even if beaten by her husband, puts her hand in his and says: ‘I will not rest until you are pleased with me.’ This is how the Prophet Muhammad taught his women to be,”

Savage advice from a follower of the religion of peace: http://www.timesofisrael.com/egyptian-cleric-advises-men-beat-your-wife-so-she-will-mend-her-ways/
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September 5, 2012 2:10pm
Manolo

Marie Antoinette attempting to sell damaged Kenyan goods: http://news.yahoo.com/first-lady-says-husband-man-trust-024143640–election.html
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September 5, 2012 4:15pm

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