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September 21, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 21 September 2012

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General Debate

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tom hunter

Why do they need new jobs? To pay the owner of the machine for the things they need to live,
…
The system precludes the possibility of escape.

I see the first argument but do not agree with the bleak conclusion. Back in the late 1990’s a book or article that I was reading (sorry, don’t have time to find a link on the Net, even if one exists) relayed parts of a debate between some representative of the Chinese Communist Party and an American politician (possibly a bureaucrat) about the changes in China.

The American pointed out that China was now encouraging rabid capitalism among its people as fast as it could, and becoming more like the USA. They’d given up on communism, at least in the economic realm.

The Chinese guy admitted that was so – but he pointed out that the huge growth and spread of individually based investment vehicles like 401(K)’s in the USA, meant that millions of ordinary workers had effectively become owners of the means of production!
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September 21, 2012 1:29pm
Pete George

Ryan, that is complicated by the mass brainwashing of marketing and consumerism, that convinces many of us what we need and ‘deserve’.

Political marketing also plays a part, also trying to convince what we ‘deserve’, but also redefining things like poverty. What heartless cretins would resist eradicating poverty? According to Metiria Turei et al, John Key and National.
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September 21, 2012 1:31pm
Manolo

Ignoramuses and opportunists trying to solve a problem by decree: http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8536397/exchange-rate-is-a-vital-political-issue
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September 21, 2012 1:34pm
Manolo

The unAmerican appeaser in Chief trying to deny the undeniable: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/20/carney-elf-evident-benghazi-attack-was-terrorism/
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September 21, 2012 1:37pm
Ryan Sproull

I see the first argument but do not agree with the bleak conclusion. Back in the late 1990′s a book or article that I was reading (sorry, don’t have time to find a link on the Net, even if one exists) relayed parts of a debate between some representative of the Chinese Communist Party and an American politician (possibly a bureaucrat) about the changes in China.

The American pointed out that China was now encouraging rabid capitalism among its people as fast as it could, and becoming more like the USA. They’d given up on communism, at least in the economic realm.

The Chinese guy admitted that was so – but he pointed out that the huge growth and spread of individually based investment vehicles like 401(K)’s in the USA, meant that millions of ordinary workers had effectively become owners of the means of production!

I applaud those attempts at recognising workers’ rightful ownership of the fruits of their labour (including the building of a business, not just the outputs of that business). But it’s worth remembering that in a global context, a huge number of people are excluded. What we call a growing middle class of appeasement ownership in First World nations is usually (almost always) built on transnational systems that shift the un-owning worker status overseas.

I mean, you’re right, it’s interesting and well intentioned. But it goes the way of the unions – fighting to keep jobs onshore with no international solidarity. And it’s so minuscule compared to what’s possible.
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September 21, 2012 1:46pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan, that is complicated by the mass brainwashing of marketing and consumerism, that convinces many of us what we need and ‘deserve’.

Yes, and that’s a growth industry itself.

Political marketing also plays a part, also trying to convince what we ‘deserve’, but also redefining things like poverty. What heartless cretins would resist eradicating poverty? According to Metiria Turei et al, John Key and National.

Sure, though I’m certain John Key would love for poverty to be eradicated in New Zealand. He’s not a sociopath. If he could press a button right now that ended poverty in New Zealand, he’s press it. And he may well believe sincerely that his approach to economics holds the best hope for poor New Zealanders rising out of poverty. But in a global context, there is no poverty in New Zealand, and there’s a good argument for saying that many of the proposed policies (by both Labour and National) for reducing poverty in New Zealand would do so by capitalising on wealth that comes in from nations where workers can barely imagine the kind of privilege they enjoy here.

When we start with an economic system that serves a minority of capital owners, aspirations range from survival at one extreme and becoming an owner at the other. But none of them address the basic systemic problems.

And that’s another way that the possibility is prevented from being realised. Success for a nation’s politician is measured by success of that nation’s people, regardless of how it affects the people of other nations. If the people most affected by, say, the United States’ foreign and trade policies had a vote in who was creating those policies, they would be very different.
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September 21, 2012 1:53pm
TheContrarian

Barack Obama today:
“…the most important lesson I’ve learned is that you can’t change Washington from the inside. You can only change it from the outside.”

Que Mitt Romney:
“I couldn’t believe it when the president of the United States said he couldn’t get change from the inside…”I can change Washington, I will change Washington. We’ll get the job from the inside.”

But wait:
Mitt Romney 2007 – “I don’t think you change Washington from the inside. I think you change it from the outside.”

???
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September 21, 2012 2:19pm
tom hunter

But it’s worth remembering that in a global context, a huge number of people are excluded.

True, but the point is that there have been a huge number of people included over the years, starting with the basic process of lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty in China, and increasingly in India.

From a conservative perspective I’m very distrusting of revolutions, particularly revolutions from above and especially revolutions that claim they are going to upend everything.

So I look at the process of capitalism and see that it has lifted huge chunks of humanity out of the shit, and as those people become richer – in the true sense of owning wealth, rather than the ephemeral world of having only an income – humanity will move closer towards a society where one both owns capital and works for it.

… appeasement ownership in First World nations is usually (almost always) built on transnational systems that shift the un-owning worker status overseas.

Yeah, yeah. Dependency Theory, courtesy of Wallerstein/Baran/Singer, wherein an intra-national exploited class of workers is replaced by an international exploited class of workers. But it’s still the same Marxist theory that droned on about how Western capitalists grew rich by exploiting the Western working class as industrialised slavery and using all manner of nefarious means to drive down the cost of local resources. It would all end in tears of course.

As things turned out, even after just 50 years, it had become apparent that this was a crock of shit. The working classes were actually getting wealthier and turning into the dreaded middle classes. One did not need to wade into statistics either: the fact that the ‘masses’ had not risen up in revolution – as was supposedly ‘scientifically inevitable’ – was proof enough.

The same thing will happen globally with the un-owning worker status overseas, and probably a lot faster than in the mi-19th century.
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September 21, 2012 2:24pm
tom hunter

Ryan, that is complicated by the mass brainwashing of marketing and consumerism, that convinces many of us what we need and ‘deserve’.

It’s always good to see how closely aligned are the thoughts of a Libertarian Socialist and a Moderate, Centre-Leftist on the question of the degree of free-will that an individual is capable of.

Many years ago I majored in Marketing, and while our advertising courses delved into human psychology and how it could be used to persuade people to buy stuff – and more stuff – you’d be amazed at how utterly futile most such efforts are, as the makers of the Blackberry have discovered when put up against the iPhone.

And of course you two don’t suffer from such “brainwashing” right? It’s just the “sheeple”.
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September 21, 2012 2:31pm
eszett

James Stephenson (1,125) Says:
September 21st, 2012 at 12:36 pm

Romney’s comments were taken out of context and twisted by that lovely left-wing partisan media the US have. Talking at a campaign rally and saying “it’s not my job to worry about people who are never going to vote for me” big wow. Funny how we had that same media jumping in to explain why Obama’s “you didn’t build that” line wasn’t a gaffe.

Just how is the Romney Video taken “out of context” when it is published in full

You can read it here:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/full-transcript-mitt-romney-secret-video#47percent

And maybe he meant that he doesn’t have to worry about people who are not going to vote for him anyway, but he just didn’t say that or leave it at that.

Romney: There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe that government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you name it. That that’s an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what. And I mean, the president starts off with 48, 49, 48—he starts off with a huge number. These are people who pay no income tax. Forty-seven percent of Americans pay no income tax. So our message of low taxes doesn’t connect. And he’ll be out there talking about tax cuts for the rich. I mean that’s what they sell every four years. And so my job is not to worry about those people—I’ll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives. What I have to do is convince the 5 to 10 percent in the center that are independents that are thoughtful, that look at voting one way or the other depending upon in some cases emotion, whether they like the guy or not, what it looks like.

And if you really want to know the meaning of taken out of context then “You didn’t build that” is a textbook example. If you look at what Obama said before and after that soundbite, you will actually understand what he was saying.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/07/13/remarks-president-campaign-event-roanoke-virginia

There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

So by all means, please take Romney’s and Obama’s remarks in context.
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September 21, 2012 2:40pm
hinamanu

Mr Farrar is excited about GE food. Here’s an example of Monsanto GE fed rats

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=368324416576180&set=a.182339481841342.43482.182336115175012&type=1&theater
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September 21, 2012 2:43pm
tom hunter

So by all means, please take Romney’s and Obama’s remarks in context.

Once the complaining started from the left, there were more than a few right-wing websites that – unlike Mother Jones with Romney – were more than happy to produce the full context of Obama’s remarks immediately, especially including the valuable context of facial and verbal expressions, so that nobody running their own business was in any doubt about what Obama “meant”:

To borrow from Lincoln, “we have not yet reached the whole.” Not that anything said so far has erred, either in the significance or purport of Obama’s remarks, but we have not yet done them full justice.

Obama’s remarks support his demand for higher income taxes. Making his case, Obama seeks to undermine the claim of right with which individuals hold their property, their income, their wealth. Under Obama’s doctrine, all arise from the collective support of the government. They are not the fruit of the individual’s labor.

Under Obama’s doctrine, there is no just limit on the power of the government to take the individual’s property. The property isn’t that man’s alone; he alone did not earn it. What the government does not take from the individual by taxes or regulation remains his conditionally, on the sufferance of the state.

No teaching could be more foreign to the founding principles of the United States than Obama’s doctrine.

Indeed – but it fits perfectly with the long-held vision of Democratic Socialists and has been put in place in any number of countries. American leftists have talked up the vision of the USA-as-Sweden for decades, and of course Obama’s off-the-cuff remarks were simply an echo of what Elizabeth Warren had said during her private fundraiser in Massachusetts a few months earlier as she runs for the Senate.

Partisan right-wingers may have had some fun with the clumsiness of Obama’s phrasing, since it reduces to such a good soundbite – but I don’t see anything there, in full context, that a leftist would not wholeheartedly support in argument.

In the same way – while I would object to partisan left-wingers (or idiots) claiming that Romney will crush or starve the 47% – I have no objections to the point he is making that US society is at a tipping point where those utterly dependent on the government (and that includes more than a few large corporations it would seem) will so outnumber those who either are not or don’t want to be, that the former will be able to to take whatever they want from the latter group through the power of the vote. And again, aside from all the usual cover required during an election (No, no, we’re not going to screw-over you and your business, we just want you to support society better) I don’t see many leftists who would not be perfectly happy with such an outcome.
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September 21, 2012 3:28pm
F E Smith

I applaud those attempts at recognising workers’ rightful ownership of the fruits of their labour (including the building of a business, not just the outputs of that business).

Has anybody responded to this? Because it is completely wrong. The workers do not have rightful ownership to the fruits of their labour. The fruits of the workers labour is not the product that they manufacture/produce, but the rather the wages that they agreed to swap for their labour.
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September 21, 2012 3:34pm
Pete George

The fact that some marketing campaigns fail doesn’t mean they all fail on all people.

So IPhone marketing is better than Blackberry. Many in the media are sold on promoting I-products for free, big time.

At least you can always rely on what you are eating when you buy Macdonalds anywhere in the world. Every employee presumably always has identical hygeine standards all the time.

We may not all be sheeple but we all get brainwashed. Some more than others.

The only apples or blackberries I’ve every bought I’ve eaten. But I’m sure I deserve some useless added value product.
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September 21, 2012 3:42pm
Griff

Apple charge more so can spend more on marketing persuading more that the product is better.People buy apple not because its better value but because it spends more on marketing generating a self supporting consumer identity loop that they are paying for. Marketing driven reality bubbles always burst eventually Hence blackberry historic and apples eventual collapse are a forgone conclusion

Typed on a levono laptop running Ubuntu and up loaded via android 2.3 and samsung phone. All consumer choices driven by value not fashion or marketing spend or form over function.
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September 21, 2012 4:18pm
Redbaiter

“The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of ‘liberalism’ they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.”

-Norman Thomas, (1884-1968) six-time U.S. Presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America 1948
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September 21, 2012 4:29pm
eszett

Once the complaining started from the left, there were more than a few right-wing websites that – unlike Mother Jones with Romney – were more than happy to produce the full context of Obama’s remarks immediately, especially including the valuable context of facial and verbal expression

lol, Yeah right.

Mother Jones published the entire quote from day one, before and after the “And so my job is not to worry about those people”.

Whereas the right wings blogs (e.g. our dear Not PC blog) and Mitt Romney and his campaign went with ” If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that” on and on and on.

You can happily put both paragraphs in full context next to each other.
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September 21, 2012 4:32pm
Redbaiter

“ It is well-known that virtually all of the opinion-molding organs of American society are firmly in the hands of the leftists. These include: the media, public schools, academia, legal profession, foundations, seminaries, libraries and, sadly, many major corporations.

Therefore, unless an individual is an exceptionally original thinker or is exposed to a countervailing inoculation (e.g., by reading the Wall Street Journal or The Washington Times, watching Fox News, subscribing to the Heritage Foundation or attending Hillsdale or Grove City College), his mindset is inevitably shaped to be part of the liberal consensus.

And the two venues that are most influential in this regard are the media and the government-controlled public schools. If these two components were magically removed from the progressive control board, then what remains – if it even could survive without these fundamental components – would likely not be enough to control the national conversation as it currently does.

But today – and for the last 30-50 years – the children of America are subject to a relentless barrage of left-wing propaganda that is strongly reinforced by what their parents see and read on TV, in the movies and in the newspaper.

The pernicious efforts of the mainstream media and the education establishment have rendered at least a quarter of the population into mindless robots who serve the progressive cause. Nothing is going on in their heads. Therefore, the robots will favor Obama – despite his manifest failures and despite the fact that their support runs counter to their own self interest. Added to the 20% hardcore liberal population, one obtains Obama’s 45% approval rating.

http://intellectualconservative.com/index.php/why-isn-t-romney-slaughtering
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September 21, 2012 4:36pm
TheContrarian

“The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of ‘liberalism’ they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.”

-Norman Thomas, (1884-1968) six-time U.S. Presidential candidate for the Socialist Party of America 1948″

Well, if Norman Thomas said it then it must be true!

The democrats as socialists? Please – they are capitalists, through and through
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September 21, 2012 4:36pm
chiz

hinamanu:Mr Farrar is excited about GE food. Here’s an example of Monsanto GE fed rats

Yawn. Another study by Seralini finds evidence that GE food is, like, bad. The fact that Seralini is biased, has links to greenpeace, and has history of dodgy research on the subject is of course irrelevant I suppose.
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September 21, 2012 4:40pm
wtfunz

Redbaiter – you’ve got to think they already have. I was stunned by the level of Romneys “insult”. The figure I saw suggested that he had offended 48% of Americans as thats how many recieve some sort of state benefit. I’m still gettting off the floor.

We are talking about the home of capitalism which socialism has clearly conquered. Is it any wonder the US economy has tanked to the extent they are printing billions monthly? They’ve forgotten how to work, be responsible for themselves, create, grow and prosper. OH SHIT! They sound like New Zealand. People everywhere crying and whinging with their hand out. Obviously an infectious disease.
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September 21, 2012 4:44pm
tom hunter

Mother Jones published the entire quote from day one …

But not the tape to back it up (Trust Us, We’re Hardline Lefties), which had one or two minutes missing around the key quote due to “camera problems”. I think even that has now been completely released – but it took some pushing from people asking questions.

I guess that’s why the LA Times is being so careful with that videotape of Rashid Khalidi’s farewell party at which Obama spoke. It’s been four years since news of that party and videotape surfaced. Perhaps a lot of editing is required before we see it, if we ever do – or his school records. Quite a contrast to Mitt’s highschool stuff being unearthed and now this videotape.
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September 21, 2012 5:16pm
eszett

It is well-known that virtually all of the opinion-molding organs of American society are firmly in the hands of the leftists. These include: the media, public schools, academia, legal profession, foundations, seminaries, libraries and, sadly, many major corporations.

Hey Red, if the Lefties can do all this and more and keep on doing it over and over again, isn’t it time that you admit defeat?

I mean, if you righties continuously get beaten by these knuckle-dragging elitist socialist brainwashed unthinking neanderthal lefties you must be doing something wrong and they must be doing something right. Ever thought of that?

Resistance is futile, Red. You will be assimilated.

😉
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September 21, 2012 5:23pm
chiz

The Ig Nobel prizes have been announced, including:

The US Government General Accountability Office, for issuing a report recommending the preparation of a report to discuss the impact of reports about reports
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September 21, 2012 5:29pm
chiz

Opinion piece on stuff concludes that many living organism began tasting like chicken about 350 million years ago.
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September 21, 2012 5:36pm
bereal

speaking of ‘political reporter’ Barry Soper.

Has there ever been a reporter who exceeded Sopers use of the word ‘I’ in their reports ?

Political pundit, maybe.
But “reporter ?” Get Real.
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September 21, 2012 5:41pm
grumpyoldhori

Ah the purity of the yank so called conservative, keep your government hands off my Medicare, but we banks are needed you cannot let us fail, farming subsidies of course we need OUR farming subsidies, how will we farmers pay our peasants and survive without subsidies.
Give conservatives long enough and they will become socialists in all but name.
Conservatives believe in purity, LOL, one glance at the banks who screamed THEY needed TAXPAYER funds to survive and pay fat bonuses for making fuckups makes a lie of that.
It should read, we are conservatives when we are making profits, but all losses should be socialised
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September 21, 2012 6:19pm
Kevin

Saw Penny’s pwotest today as I passed the domain gates. Fizzer.
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September 21, 2012 6:23pm
Kevin

Oh surely no one still beleives the banks cause the meltdown? Goodness me. The greed of the political elite caused the meltdown of course. If the banks were the problem why is the solution POLITICAL reform rather than bank reform?
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September 21, 2012 6:27pm
Viking2

I see we have hit another milestone today. Two planes loads leaving every week.

54000 in the last 12 months. Still going up. Apparently continuing to do the same things we have always done will bring about the changes that have never come.

http://www.telstraclear.co.nz/news/news-story.cfm?content_id=841393
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September 21, 2012 6:28pm
Griff

Did it reach her normal level of support 4 people one dead cat?
Yesterday she posted three times in a row on here and did not even get a single comment of derision
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September 21, 2012 6:32pm
Keeping Stock

@ Viking2 – seeing as you hate New Zealand so much, why don’t you join them?
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September 21, 2012 7:04pm
Steve (North Shore)

I guess nobody wants to see Elaycee shoving a megaphone up her arse. Not really a spectator sport, so Ms Dim’s supporters just could not be bothered
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September 21, 2012 7:05pm
nasska

This should offend at least someone. 🙂

Ref: http://www.buzzfeed.com/copyranter/9-very-offensive-fake-ads
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September 21, 2012 7:41pm
Griff

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/nga-matapono-o-te-tiriti-principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi/2
Treaty principles developed by courts
the Crown has the right to govern – the principles of the treaty ‘do not authorise unreasonable restrictions on the right of a duly elected government to follow its chosen policy. Indeed, to try and shackle the Government unreasonably would itself be inconsistent with those principles’.5 Another Judge in the case, Gordon Bisson, said it was ‘in accordance with the principles of the Treaty that the Crown should provide laws and make related decisions for the community as a whole having regard to the economic and other needs of the day’.6
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September 21, 2012 7:53pm
nasska

Fox News, 31 Oct 2008, Saudi Arabia Holds First Beauty Pageant . . . for Sheep

BANBAN, Saudi Arabia — The contestants scampered down the runway, bleating at their admirers. Poets sang their praises in verse as the male-only audience appraised the competitors’ physical beauty, right down to the length of their necks.

But instead of receiving roses and a tiara, it was off to the highest bidder for many finalists in the first Saudi beauty pageant featuring locally bred sheep.

The contest, a far cry from female beauty pageants held in some Arab countries like Lebanon, offered an opportunity for breeders to do business and a rare outlet for entertainment in a country where the few recreational activities that exist are conducted under the strict glare of the religious police.

…

“The Nejdi sheep of today are much more beautiful than those of 10 years ago,” said Salem al-Ghannami, a 37-year-old Emirati at the event.

…

On Thursday evening, some 4,000 men assembled on a lit-up stretch of desert just north of Riyadh covered with hundreds of carpets. The event was off-limits to women in keeping with strict Saudi rules that ban the sexes from mixing in public.

The men sat in armchairs around a tiny runway covered with red carpeting. The stench of dung filled the cool desert air as rams and ewes were put on display following a fireworks show and a competition for the best poem in praise of sheep.

The event’s organizer, Faisal al-Saadoun, said connoisseurs have an eye for attractive sheep.

“Just like humans, sheep shouldn’t have fat in unwanted places,” said al-Saadoun. “They should also be tall.
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September 21, 2012 8:00pm
Viking2

Keeping Stock (8,114) Says:
September 21st, 2012 at 7:04 pm

@ Viking2 – seeing as you hate New Zealand so much, why don’t you join them?

KS. what a fucking mindless stupid thing to say. Its stupid people like you that think all is well in gods own, cause you are OK, that allow even more stupid politicans to do what they do. I ain’t not ever going to brown nose key or English nor the likes of Clark because frankly it aint about NZ for them but about their need for power. Excuses don’t cut the mustard because those that make excuses when well paid should be fired for lack of imagination and determination.
It was KEY himself who fronted and told everyone that Labour was causing mass migration and to his credit he has managed to grow that pie.
Blenglish has decided that 25 years of doing fuck all for exporters and screwing the shit out of mortgage borrowers is the recipe for success. Well proven with the results we have had.

If you beleive that shit then you are part of NZ’s problem.

Fortunately I consider NZ can do much better as do quite a few others.

NZ has not been prosperous since the early 70’s when that was interruppted by the hike in oil prices and the resultant National reaction and fix its. Most of which failed and we have since gone backwards. Bolger was of little help as we stood still and the last years of Clark et al we appalling. Now we have had 4 years of again not much.
We have employment laws that are anti employer and anti employment. No wonder employers go off shore followed by their workers. With that useless Willikinson fix them . No she doesn’t even understand what the fuck we are talking about let alone have any inititive to fix them.

We are exporting more than we ever have and still have a growing deficit. Your previous sneering at the Greeks and the Spaniards will come to haunt you if these over fed and over paid buffoons that are called MP’s don’t get the shit together and start listening to people other than socialists and thier mothers litlle helpers.

So you’re all right Jack and fuck the rest apparently.

Oh and I see Bill’s favourite financier has left a huge hole in the taxpayer funds thanks to his incompetent allowing of that garantee.

We have the Govt. pouring money into whats left of CHCH and the ungrateful pricks want more and are not prepared to sell any of their assets cause Key has promised them money from the taxpayer without requiring they liquidate some of their assets to recover their losses.

Reminisant of the Maori’s which they are failing to say no more to.

Meantime they are attacking the young unemployed as if the lack of jobs and work is their fault, as if they want to force them all to stay in education just to fit them up with student loans they can’t pay.

What a fucked up system the socialists run. You of course are just another socialist. You’re OK Jack, never mind anyone else.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/7703779/High-dollar-negating-dairy-gains
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/market-data/7712140/NZ-sharemarket-ends-week-in-red
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/7714061/NZD-up-on-GDP-strength

Not a positive in sight.
Hundreds of jobs lost in the last few weeks.
Chinese economy going backwards.
European econmy going backwards
USA economy going backwards.
Australians going backwards as well.

An we are using deconstruct and rebuild money to pimp up our GDP. How replcing something we already had is a growth in GDP escapes me and that is the fallacy that is NZ.

So instead of being at the top of the OECD we after many years of socialist National and Labour Govt. are near the bottom.
But your OK.
Get the drift.
Selfish is what I would call it.

And just to rub salt into beneficiaries wounds we are going to feed the most usless of people for his birthday. The brown noses are taking from the taxpayer again once more.
Really tell us all KS what is positive.
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September 21, 2012 8:32pm
nasska

V2

In NZ we only advance despite Governments…..not because of them.
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September 21, 2012 8:41pm
Steve (North Shore)

Nasska, now you done gone got Johnboy all excited about exporting his darlings, he is thinking about it – just after 8pm
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September 21, 2012 8:43pm
nasska

You reckon we might have sparked his imagination a little Steve? 🙂
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September 21, 2012 8:50pm
Steve (North Shore)

You’re a fucking cracker nasska
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September 21, 2012 8:52pm
Ryan Sproull

Many years ago I majored in Marketing, and while our advertising courses delved into human psychology and how it could be used to persuade people to buy stuff – and more stuff – you’d be amazed at how utterly futile most such efforts are, as the makers of the Blackberry have discovered when put up against the iPhone

And of course you two don’t suffer from such “brainwashing” right? It’s just the “sheeple”.

Everyone is conditioned by their circumstances, Tom, including me. “Free will” is a contradiction in terms – I’m not insulting the human race by saying it doesn’t have free will, any more than I could deprive it of square triangles.

No one is saying that everyone is brainwashed into doing whatever they’re told through marketing, though. Just that, on the whole, people in our society are constantly exposed to factors encouraging them to see material acquisition as a measure of success and something to want. Starting with kids wanting the toys they’ve seen on ads, through to teenagers wanting brand clothes to keep up with each other, to adults buying flashy cars or whatever. The credit industry is built around the same principles.
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September 22, 2012 9:21am

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« The power of the market

The Nation 22 September 2012 »

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