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September 1, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 1 September 2012

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Fletch

He accused Obama of raiding medicare, when it was Ryan and co that slashed $700 odd million.

Ryan spoke the truth there, also, according to Forbes.

Here are the facts. It’s true that Ryan’s budgets in 2011 and 2012 preserved Obamacare’s cuts to Medicare. However, there is a huge difference between cutting Medicare by $716 billion to fund $1.9 trillion in new health spending, as Obamacare did, and cutting Medicare by $716 billion to shore up the solvency of the Medicare program itself, as the Ryan budget sought to do.

Secondly, the Romney Medicare plan fully repeals Obamacare, including the $716 billion in Medicare cuts.

APOTHEFACT JUDGMENT: Ryan is correct. Ryan makes the appropriate distinction between improving Medicare’s solvency and cutting its spending to fund spending elsewhere.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/08/30/yes-paul-ryan-spoke-the-truth-about-obamas-fiscal-record/
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September 1, 2012 8:28pm
Reid

You Neolibs should go back to your small and medium sized businesses.

Hamnida has it ever occurred to you that accusing those who disagwee with you is stereotyping, which cowwect me if I’m wong, is something you pwogwessives appawently “weally weally hate” and would never indulge in, or is it OK, but only when you’re dealing with “the enemy?” Which makes you what? [Starting with “h?”]

P.S. How come you never wespond to my counter-points anymore Hamnida? It weally hurts me, as a human being.
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September 1, 2012 8:30pm
Fletch

Fletch – Right wing propaganda

A factual newscast is propaganda now? A newscast recorded in 2009 about the closing of the plant?
Just how is that propaganda, exactly? No one knew back in 2009 that Ryan would mention the closing of the plant in his 2012 speech. What, he has a time machine now?
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September 1, 2012 8:31pm
Griff

Ah so then hamneggs you will hence forth desist in assertion that the right is dumb and now assert its conservatives that are as we say in these progressive times “special”. It would do you justice to note that neo lib is a shortened form of new liberal ie new and improved even smarter form of liberal 😆 as in a liberal who takes the same approach to economics as old liberals take to social issues.

ps as a Marxist you are in fact a conservative !!! just a lefty one
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September 1, 2012 8:40pm
Hamnida

I just thought you Neolibs might be busy and would be better off running your small and medium sized businesses than arguing with me.

I don’t consider you the enemy, just uneducated.
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September 1, 2012 8:41pm
Hamnida

Fletch – I am sure I can go on Youtube and find thousands of news stories about plants closing. I fail to see how Ryan’s assistants being able to search the internet makes him a good candidate.
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September 1, 2012 8:43pm
Hamnida

Griff – a voodoo version of the political spectrum.
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September 1, 2012 8:45pm
Viking2

Message here for you ahinmah.

http://biertijd.com/mediaplayer/?itemid=23312
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September 1, 2012 8:46pm
Viking2

http://www.cartoline.it/pics/scherzi_150404_01.swf

Now this is funny.
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September 1, 2012 8:52pm
Viking2

MAMA’S BIBLE

Four brothers left home for college, and they became successful doctors
and lawyers.

One evening, they chatted after having dinner together. They discussed the 95th birthday gifts they were able to give their elderly mother who moved to Florida.

The first said, “You know I had a big house built for Mama.”

The second said, “And I had a large theater built in the house.”

The third said, “And I had my Mercedes dealer deliver an SL600 to her.”

The fourth said, “You know how Mama loved reading the Bible and you know
she can’t read anymore because she can’t see very well. I met this
preacher who told me about a parrot who could recite the entire Bible. It took
ten preachers almost 8 years to teach him. I had to pledge to contribute
$50,000 a year for five years to the church, but it was worth it
Mama only has to name the chapter and verse, and the parrot will recite it.”

The other brothers were impressed. After the celebration Mama sent out
her “Thank You” notes.

She wrote: Milton, the house you built is so huge that I live in only one
room, but I have to clean the whole house. Thanks anyway.”

“Marvin, I am too old to travel. I stay home; I have my groceries
delivered, so I never use the Mercedes. The thought was good. Thanks.”

“Michael, you gave me an expensive theater with Dolby sound and it can
hold 50 people, but all of my friends are dead, I’ve lost my hearing,
and I’m nearly blind. I’ll never use it. Thank you for the gesture just the
same.”

“Dearest Melvin, you were the only son to have the good sense to give
a little thought to your gift. The chicken was delicious! Thank you so much.”

Love, Mama
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September 1, 2012 8:52pm
nasska

V2

Love it! 🙂
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September 1, 2012 8:55pm
Griff

hamneggs a particularly thick conservative lefty
While on the small to medium business kick you might like to look into the percentage of gdp, employment tax and growth provided by the neolibs in small to mid size business and reflect that with out us you would be living in the Cuba of the south pacific ie no money for social welfare no jobs no progress and no future. With out the economic benefits provided by the neolib driven economy poverty would be real not the imaginary beast of you dreams
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September 1, 2012 9:06pm
Reid

I don’t consider you the enemy, just uneducated.

Would it surprise you then Hamnida to learn that actually, as a matter of fact, all conservatives understand the human condition as acutely as lefty’s do, it’s just we’re not naive about human motivations?

See for example, from our perspective we understand lefties look at conservatives who have accumulated wealth as having taken that wealth off of others. However conservatives know, because they’ve done it, that’s not the case, except for criminals, such as who you’re seeing being tried through the systems for fraud at the mo. But they, newsflash Hamnida, are not us. And we celebrate arsehole bankers or whatever, being prosecuted to the max just like you.

No, real conservatives in the general population have accumulated their wealth from wisdom, frugality, deferral of gratification in particular. The latter is what got most of us more well off than your average lefty voter. It wasn’t position or education or the old boys network or anything else. It was simple wisdom Hamnida. And that’s free to all. What conservatives don’t quite understand is why you lefties insist on playing the victim card left, right, and centre which thereby removes responsibility from the person whom you’re addressing, to give them out of their own hole that they’ve created through their own decisions.

By wrapping them in cotton wool you deny their basic right to become creatures of light, as your lefty hero, Mandela preached.

Just why you keep objecting to that, which thereby denies them the ability to achieve on their own merits by offering them a fair, transparent playing field which all are free to enter, is quite beyond us, Hamnida. Yet you keep so doing.

And the worst part is, you disguise your deception in the name of caring for people. Well surely, caring for people is allowing their natural spirit to flourish. It’s not, as lefties do, wrapping their spirits in cotton wool so they become fat and lazy on other people’s money.
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September 1, 2012 9:13pm
lilman

YYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS !!!!

NAKI
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September 1, 2012 9:17pm
Hamnida

I wasn’t saying that you Neolibs aren’t good at creating wealth, transferring money between generations, avoiding tax by hiding income in trusts, and running small and medium sized businesses. Those are things you are good at.

That said, we cannot ignore the myriad of peer reviewed research indicating you have low IQs compared to progressive liberals.
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September 1, 2012 9:21pm
Viking2

The original computer!!!!

This made me laugh out loud…
(try explaining this to your grand-kids!)

Memory was something you lost with age
An application was for employment
A program was a TV show
A cursor used profanity

A keyboard was a piano
A web was a spider’s home
A virus was the flu
A CD was a bank account

A hard drive was a long trip on the road
A mouse pad was where a mouse lived

And if you had a 3.5 inch floppy.

You just hoped nobody ever found out!?!
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September 1, 2012 9:22pm
Viking2

And for all you’se Gay marriage deniers.

http://screencast.com/t/KL1Yr2bqP
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September 1, 2012 9:24pm
Reid

Hamnida if your 9:21 is a response to my 9:13 then please re-read it since you’ve missed 99% of what I said.
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September 1, 2012 9:25pm
Viking2

Hamnida (576) Says:
September 1st, 2012 at 9:21 pm

I wasn’t saying that you Neolibs aren’t good at creating wealth, transferring money between generations, avoiding tax by hiding income in trusts, and running small and medium sized businesses. Those are things you are good at.

Ah thankyou. Rather be dumb and fucking rich than brillant and live off other’s charity.
You sad bastard you.
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September 1, 2012 9:26pm
Fletch

Fletch – I am sure I can go on Youtube and find thousands of news stories about plants closing. I fail to see how Ryan’s assistants being able to search the internet makes him a good candidate.

hamnida, except the video is from WKBT-TV in La Crosse, Wisconsin, from April 2009, discussing the impending plant closure, and you can also see that the youtube user uploaded it on 21 April, 2009.

You’ll just have to accept the fact that Ryan was right, and liberals tried to shoot down what he said but failed.

It has nothing to do with making him a good candidate, it’s that the Left tried to say that the plant was closed before Obama mentioned it in 2008, which it clearly wasn’t.

That’s all I’m debunking.
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September 1, 2012 9:31pm
Hamnida

Reid – I did it justice by reading it twice.

I disagree, part of the Right’s strategy is to appear compassionate. The left genuinely care about people, not profits.

I believe young people can liberated by way of education, a warm and safe home, and three healthy meals a day. Currently, young New Zealanders do not have equal opportunities. In fact, 20% live below the poverty line while others live in mansions.

I want a transfer of wealth from the haves to the have nots to ensure all young people have the ability to thrive in New Zealand.
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September 1, 2012 9:32pm
Hamnida

Fletch – I understand – TV, the internet, and the ability to download old news clips. In this case, one from Wisconsin.

Google “Plant Closure 2009 Wisconsin” – I got 4 million hits.
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September 1, 2012 9:34pm
Fletch

In other words, “yes, Fletch, you’re right, but I’m not going to admit it”.
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September 1, 2012 9:38pm
Hamnida

Well I would admit Ryan, or his assistants, can use the internet.
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September 1, 2012 9:48pm
Reid

I disagree, part of the Right’s strategy is to appear compassionate. The left genuinely care about people, not profits.

Hamnida you do the conservative population a great disservice by your glib assumption.

Remember that as a demographic we too are human. With all the humanitarian understanding you lefties seem to imagine are exclusively yours, plus we have other things you lefties don’t have, such as maturity, wisdom and experience.

You’ve answered my question though, I now understand where come from mate. Just do yourself a favour in your future comments here, but over to you if you do or don’t, I really don’t care, either way. But the favour to yourself is mate, recognise, as I always do, you’re not the smartest guy in the room, not by a long shot, and the second you think you are, you open yourself up to grave mistakes. The lefty mindset is to pretend otherwise, on the basis of the pretence lefties think they always argue from the moral high ground, since they really truly believe they’re really truly the only ones who really do care.

Don’t believe it Hamnida. It’s bullshit and whether you learn that truth at 20, 30, 40, 50 or whether you never learn it, it is in fact, a fact. If you can internalise that into your thinking Hamnida you’ll become I sense a very astute politico. If you don’t, you won’t.
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September 1, 2012 9:54pm
Ryan Sproull

Well I would admit Ryan, or his assistants, can use the internet.

We’re all quite capable, thank you.
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September 1, 2012 10:10pm
Hamnida

Reid – If you Neolibs are so compassionate, then why not help out the 20% of New Zealand children living below the poverty line? Why not let the cleaner on $13.50 an hour earn a living wage? Why not pay your fair share so the elderly can have decent care?

Instead of beneficiary bashing, why not offer them a job?

Why not say the school my kids go to is good enough for all children?

Why not stand up to the CEO earning $5,000,000 a year while he contracts out other jobs to cut costs?
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September 1, 2012 10:26pm
Griff

The study hamneggs as in the actual paper that you continually refer to but have never read

http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=study%20liberal%20intelergence&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&ved=0CFYQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asanet.org%2Fimages%2Fjournals%2Fdocs%2Fpdf%2Fspq%2FMar10SPQFeature.pdf&ei=fthBUOfeEoneigfG_IGIBA&usg=AFQjCNF48F8S3nBd0LSrHstECcWqv4L5cA

If you read it and actually can comprehend its content you will learn things !!!
=
this is directly from the study edited to remove links to the appendix and make it more readable
Self-identified liberals in the GSS samples are significantly more likely to agree with the statements ‘‘It is the responsibility of the government to reduce the differences in income between people with high incomes and those with low incomes’’ , and with the statement‘‘The government in Washington ought to reduce the income differences between the rich and the poor, perhaps by raising the taxes of wealthy families or by giving income assistance to the poor’’ and less likely to agree with the statement ‘‘The government should not concern itself with reducing this income dif-ference between the rich and the poor
THEN THE IMPORTANT BIT LEFT OUT OF YOUR STORY
’However, even though more intelligent GSS respondents are more likely to identify themselves as liberals they are actually less likely to agree with the statement ‘‘It is the responsibility of the gov-ernment.’’or the statement ‘‘The government in Washington ought to reduce.’’

Another interesting thing to note is the same correlation between intelligence and liberalism exists between intelligent and atheism some thing that none of the reports in American media commented on
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September 1, 2012 10:28pm
Reid

why not help out the 20% of New Zealand children living below the poverty line?

We do, but when you spread a given amount of icing on a cake more thinly, it’s only spread more thinly. Conservatives know you can’t just wave a magic wand and demand more money from “the rich” and give it to the poor because that would simply grind the economy to a halt. Your lefty heroes know this too because if it was as easy as that, how come during the best global conditions anyone has ever seen, over a ten year period, didn’t Cullen eliminate all poverty? How come there were heaps of people during the 5th Labour govt, who remained on benefits all through that time? How come while the number of unemployed reduced, the number on sickness benefits mysteriously skyrocketed and the number of civil servants increased by 30% with zero, yes zero, increase in productivity?

Fact is Hamnida the beloved 5th Labour govt fudged the books and spent a whole heck of a lot on getting themselves re-elected with bullshit schemes like WFF for rich people and interest-free student loans. If the 5th Labour govt was a private company, their share price would have tanked and they would be right now facing significant litigation for gross incompetence during the best trading conditions any govt in living memory has ever seen.

If you want to understand conservative economics then study Commanding Heights very carefully. It’s an extremely good elucidation of the schism between Keynesian and Hayekian economics and you need to understand that in detail if you really want to understand this issue. And I mean, in detail. It’s six hours long and you need to watch it more than once. It has heaps of world leaders on, including many leading economic thinkers from both sides, it should be compulsory study for every NCEA economics student, but I bet it’s not.

Why not let the cleaner on $13.50 an hour earn a living wage? Why not pay your fair share so the elderly can have decent care?

The fact you’ve strung those two separate issues together indicates a certain mindset but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren’t imagining that the reason conservatives resist increasing the minimum wage is because they don’t want to pay more taxes. The fact is Hamnida there is a threshold beyond which employers will not employ young people if the minimum wage is set too high. That threshold is currently very close to $13.50 I don’t know what it currently is but let’s say for argument it’s $14.00. Beyond that employers stop hiring young people because it costs them significant money to train them.

This is going to take awhile and it’s late so I’m going to stop here for the night Hamnida, happy to resume this tomorrow, so check back in the morning either on this or on the new GD, happy to fully answer your 10:26 questions. But look at that link, talk to you soon.
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September 1, 2012 10:56pm
Hamnida

No worries, have a good night.
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September 1, 2012 11:00pm
thedavincimode

Fuckwit

What’s a neo lib? Do they like eating babies too?
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September 1, 2012 11:16pm
jcuk

>>>Romney was referring to now-famous remarks Obama made in 2008 after securing the Democratic nomination. “I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children … this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal.” <<<

That was before he knew that whatever he tried to do the Republicans would block and over rule his efforts …..the s…..s.
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September 2, 2012 3:45am
Thrash Cardiom

Hamnida has it ever occurred to you that accusing those who disagwee with you is stereotyping, which cowwect me if I’m wong, is something you pwogwessives appawently “weally weally hate” and would never indulge in, or is it OK, but only when you’re dealing with “the enemy?” Which makes you what? [Starting with “h?”]

About time you got that ‘r’ on your keyboard fixed.
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September 2, 2012 8:15am

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