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August 6, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 6 August 2012

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General Debate

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Fletch

FIRST!
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August 6, 2012 8:04am
Don the Kiwi

Let’s see.

Definitely another pro-gay marriage post today. 🙂
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August 6, 2012 8:06am
thedavincimode

[head shake font] So how about that NZOC then? First the Jacko fuckup and now Adams. Do they just not like shot putters?

I wonder if any of them actually manage to hold down jobs or whether they just fly about feeling more important than the athletes.
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August 6, 2012 8:11am
nasska

Don the Kiwi

It’s inevitable……the topic is so fresh & there are so many aspects of the argument yet to debate.

Yeah…right.
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August 6, 2012 8:11am
thedavincimode

There is still plenty of G**’s work to be done nasska.
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August 6, 2012 8:13am
Viking2

Nah all the God botherers and the rest of you slackers should be at work, paying taxes so us oldies can retire and live offa ya earnings. Get to work you lazy bums.
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August 6, 2012 8:17am
Monique Watson

Gunna watch the Mars landing tonight?

http://gigaom.com/2012/08/05/how-to-watch-the-mars-landing/

5.30pm NZ time.
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August 6, 2012 8:18am
Fletch

Nah all the God botherers and the rest of you slackers should be at work, paying taxes so us oldies can retire and live offa ya earnings. Get to work you lazy bums.

Just about to leave for work actually…
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August 6, 2012 8:20am
Monique Watson

You can fu** anyone you like on Mars.
That’s my cuntribution to THAT debate.. I liked Rodney Hides column.
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August 6, 2012 8:20am
Fletch

Good article –

http://theleadingedgeblog.com/why-rights-based-arguments-for-gay-marriage-fail/

He makes some good points.

I have heard a lot of people talking about marriage in a sense which implies that it is an absolute right for heterosexuals, and that it is only homosexuals whom marriage is denied to.

However this understanding is definitely not correct.

You see marriage is not afforded to heterosexuals as an absolute right at all.

A child cannot marry.

A brother and sister cannot marry.

Someone who is already married cannot marry.

More than one man and one woman cannot marry.

A father cannot marry his daughter.

A couple cannot marry without the required documentation.

A couple cannot marry without a celebrant and witnesses.

So, without even exploring the issue of gay ‘marriage’, we can already see that marriage has strict boundaries which cannot be violated if the two persons who want to be married wish to actually enter into a valid marriage – thus meaning that marriage is not actually something that is afforded to heterosexuals by right, instead it is something that is afforded to them on condition of them being able to meet the requirements necessary for a marriage to be brought into existence.
The other important point to note is that the current law does not actually prevent homosexual persons from marrying, instead it prevents ANY two people of the same gender from marrying, regardless of their sexuality – this is because two people of the same gender, regardless of their sexuality, cannot satisfy the fundamental requirement necessary for a pairing of two people to actually be a marriage.

That fundamental requirement is the potential for procreation in the pairing of the two persons.

Now before you start raising objections about infertile heterosexual couples, please note that I refer to the ‘potential for procreation’, rather than the ‘ability to procreate’. This distinction is vitally important, and it is the pivotal distinction between a same sex couple and a male/female couple.

Marriage definitely exists, but gay marriage does not, so in order to create gay ‘marriage’, you would first need to completely abolish marriage in order to create a new form that you also call ‘marriage’, but which is actually completely different to authentic marriage in its form – the obvious problem with doing this is you’ve actually abolished marriage in the process, meaning that gay ‘marriage’ is not actually marriage in anything other than name only (because the form of marriage had to be destroyed in order to create gay ‘marriage’).

The difference between marriage and gay ‘marriage’ is that marriage is RECOGNISED by law, whereas gay ‘marriage’ is INVENTED by law – this is a vitally important distinction, as the state has no legitimate authority to impose itself in this way upon something which exists prior to, and which does not flow from the state.

Let me give you another example – your right to life does not come from the state, it is not granted to you by them, instead it is yours by virtue of your nature – that is, you are a human being. Your right to life was not invented by the state, but is definitely recognized by them and enshrined in law because the state has a duty to uphold the common good in order to provide the necessary just order that enables human beings to flourish.

So if the state was to suddenly start enacting laws which denied you, an innocent human being, your right to life, then the state would be imposing itself upon something that it has no legitimate right to impose itself upon, and thus it would now be working against the common good and acting in an illegitimate fashion.

Read the whole thing.
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August 6, 2012 8:25am
Monique Watson

You can have babies fine without being married. That makes marriage redundant as a vehicle for procreation alone. We’re not innocent kids being lied to about how babies only happen when you reach that magical state of being married.
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August 6, 2012 8:33am
Griff

“Read the whole thing.”
Why fletche is it any different from a hundred or so other posts that you have cut and pasted in the last six months?
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August 6, 2012 8:36am
Fletch

Monique, yet the official recognition of marriage – the standing of two people in front of their peers and the State and making a lifelong commitment forms the building blocks of society and ensures the safety of mother and children.

Yes, we don’t need to be married to have babies, but how many women are left alone, uncared for (emotionally and financially) by a guy who has sex then takes of when the woman is pregnant?

Marriage ensures – most of the time – that this will not happen, because both have made a lifelong commitment and children are raised in this secure environment.

Perhaps they’d be less State-dependant single mothers if more children were born in wedlock.
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August 6, 2012 8:37am
Fletch

Griff, because I think he makes some new and intelligent points that no one has discussed.

BBL – am off to work.
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August 6, 2012 8:38am
Than

A lifelong commitment? It used to be perhaps, but today divorce is common enough that marriage as an ironclad “til death do us part” commitment is long gone.
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August 6, 2012 9:09am
David Garrett

Dear me, this is almost as bad as lenghty posts by Phool…alomost…

does anyone know what happened to him? WINZ catch up with him and confront him with evidence from here of his attitude and his obvious qualifications for data entry or bus driving jobs? I dont think he got banned…
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August 6, 2012 9:13am
Ryan Sproull

Why fletche is it any different from a hundred or so other posts that you have cut and pasted in the last six months?

I read it. No, it’s not different from the usual. Even has this old chestnut:

That fundamental requirement is the potential for procreation in the pairing of the two persons.

Now before you start raising objections about infertile heterosexual couples, please note that I refer to the ‘potential for procreation’, rather than the ‘ability to procreate’. This distinction is vitally important, and it is the pivotal distinction between a same sex couple and a male/female couple.

Of course, by “potential for procreation”, he means “being a different-sex couple” far more than he means “being able to have kids”, by his own admission. Circular reasoning very slightly hidden by euphemism.
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August 6, 2012 9:21am
Lee01

Good post Fletch, but probably wasted here. Remember that for followers of the Liberal cult gay marriage is an article of blind faith, and no amount of reasoned arguments will make any difference.
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August 6, 2012 9:34am
graham

David Garrett: I don’t know, but a quick perusal of whoar shows that he is still updating it with monotonous regularity, and last Friday showed updates throughout the day.

So I suspect whatever has happened to philu, it isn’t work.
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August 6, 2012 9:36am
tom hunter

Re the Mars Explorer. The trick to “following” the landing will be to log into the NASA or JPL sites at least an hour or two prior to the landing. Given the distractions of the Olympics and other things, you should still have a good chance of getting good streaming coverage – although there probably are many millions of geeks who will be competing for bandwidth.

One ton of nuclear-powered technology landing on Mars with a crazy “SkyCrane” method never used before. Can’t wait!
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August 6, 2012 9:39am
Ryan Sproull

Ugh. Fine, Lee, I’ll take it apart piece by piece. Will post on my blog when I’m done.
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August 6, 2012 9:52am
Griff

lee666
Remember that for followers of the Christian cult anti gay marriage is an article of blind faith, and no amount of reasoned arguments will make any difference.

Gee its so good to fix these posts for people
gives mw the warm fuzzees
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August 6, 2012 9:59am
Lee01

Ryan,

Take it apart based on what?

Let me guess; Liberalism.
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August 6, 2012 10:10am
Lee01

Griff,

These debates would be far more honest if everyone recognized that their starting point is always faith based.
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August 6, 2012 10:12am
peace

David Garrett (2,426) Says:
August 6th, 2012 at 9:13 am
Dear me, this is almost as bad as lenghty posts by Phool…alomost…

does anyone know what happened to him? WINZ catch up with him and confront him with evidence from here of his attitude and his obvious qualifications for data entry or bus driving jobs? I dont think he got banned…

graham (1,071) Says:
August 6th, 2012 at 9:36 am
David Garrett: I don’t know, but a quick perusal of whoar shows that he is still updating it with monotonous regularity, and last Friday showed updates throughout the day.
So I suspect whatever has happened to philu, it isn’t work.

Garrets using his split personality again
What a dirty rotten freak
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August 6, 2012 10:12am
Lance

Anybody know what the fuck peace(13) is burbling on about?
Must be code?
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August 6, 2012 10:14am
Steve (North Shore)

If NASA finds water on Mars, who owns it? Hope they have a claim in before someone else does
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August 6, 2012 10:18am
peace

Don’t you know by now, garrett is graham as well as many other aliases.
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August 6, 2012 10:18am
Luke Mutton

Lee01 (2,114) Says:
August 6th, 2012 at 10:12 am

Griff,

These debates would be far more honest if everyone recognized that my starting point is always faith based and no amount of evidence will get me to shift my opinion.

Another post fixed
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August 6, 2012 10:23am
Lee01

Peace,

Your proof of this claim is?
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August 6, 2012 10:24am
Lee01

Not fixed Luke, but turned onto a lie.

Every person posting here has a worldview that is at it’s root faith based.

Try a little honesty for a change. Or perhaps some honest self-awareness.
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August 6, 2012 10:27am
Lee01

So peace,

No proof at all then.

Good to know.

I’ll happily leave you to pursue your delusional ranting.
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August 6, 2012 10:30am
Griff

Lance
Dont worry its the DG nutjob magnet effect
They come sparkly brightly for a few months then get a white coat and a special room some where
I am beginning to think that the psyc profession has him on a retainer
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August 6, 2012 10:34am
Paulus

Please can anybody confirm that Mary Anne Genter, a Green MP, is actually fully eligible to be a New Zealand MP.
Understand that she still a US citizen and may not have NZ citizenship, or have the correct minumum of years in New Zealand to stand as an MP.
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August 6, 2012 10:36am
Luke Mutton

Lee01 (2,117) Says:
August 6th, 2012 at 10:27 am

Not fixed Luke, but turned onto a lie.

Every person posting here has a worldview that is at it’s root faith based.

Absolute twaddle, Lee.

Sure, I have faith that the sun will rise again tomorrow and that my dinner will be cooked for me tonight. But when it comes to the way the world works, about how we best live together, I am not hidebound by faith, but lead by the evidence.

Faith is what you cling to when you don’t like where the evidence leads.

Faith blinds you to other views.

Faith stands in opposition to freethought.
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August 6, 2012 10:37am
tom hunter

If NASA finds water on Mars ….

Ummmm – It’s been known for decades that there is water on Mars, but to date all the evidence is that it’s frozen.

Perhaps you mean liquid water, which would be very cool: there have been some intriguing pictures from orbiters that show what look like small outflows from underground springs. As to who owns it, well there is some treaty that (to date) prevents ownership of resources in outer space, rather like the Antarctic Treaty, but the practicality of it will undoubtedly be tested in the future under ye old maxim of possession being nine tenths of the law.
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August 6, 2012 10:41am
Ryan Sproull

Lee, Fletch, here you are: http://www.statehighwayone.com/2012/08/marriage-equality-fisking-brendan-malone/
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August 6, 2012 10:52am
Manolo

Tell the greedy rad¿cists to eff off and get lost: http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8511492/key-and-maori-party-to-talk-over-findings
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August 6, 2012 11:02am
Lee01

Like,

Bullshit.

How we interpret the “evidence” is conditioned by our basic worldview. Everyone has a worldview, it’s impossible not to, though most people are not self-aware enough to recognize it.

There is no such thing, especially when it comes to political and social issues, as a purely objective, “evidence” based approach. Such a claim is mere self-deceit.

Our minds sift the information we receive, even deciding what is and is not evidence in the first place. And our minds do this according to the dictates of our worldview, a worldview that is always at root, a faith assumption. I suspect that the amount of energy directed towards Christians by people such as yourself is a form of psychological denial. You know deep down that your worldview is as much a matter of faith as a Christians, but rather than admit this to yourself you supress the truth and take out the rage this creates on other people who are more honest with themselves.

I can recommend a good psychotherapist.
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August 6, 2012 11:03am
Lee01

Ryan,

As I suspected your response is filled wit unacknowledged Liberal faith assumptions. The term “marriage equality” is a good example.

You have not taken the argument to pieces, but merely opposed it based on your liberal assumptions about the world.

That’s fine for you. But for me your argument is a non-starter as I reject Liberalism entirely.
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August 6, 2012 11:11am
Griff

lee666

As the sky fairy is a figment of you imagination this makes your reality the same
An atheist does not believe in the mythical reality is the only other choice
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August 6, 2012 11:11am
Ryan Sproull

Ryan,

As I suspected your response is filled wit unacknowledged Liberal faith assumptions. The term “marriage equality” is a good example.

You have not taken the argument to pieces, but merely opposed it based on your liberal assumptions about the world.

That’s fine for you. But for me your argument is a non-starter as I reject Liberalism entirely.

Saying things doesn’t make it true, Lee. If you disagree with my reasoning, say why and where. It would hardly be a satisfactory response for me to say “well, that was just a load of Christian nonsense”.
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August 6, 2012 11:17am
Ryan Sproull

You have not taken the argument to pieces, but merely opposed it based on your liberal assumptions about the world.

That’s fine for you. But for me your argument is a non-starter as I reject Liberalism entirely.

Actually, Lee, I take it back. You’re probably right. But in fairness, the guy I was responding to presented his argument in liberal terms too.
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August 6, 2012 11:25am
Jimmy Smits

10 things I wish the Church knew about homosexuality:

1. If Jesus did not mention a subject, it cannot be essential to his teachings.

2. You are not being persecuted when prevented from persecuting others.

3. Truth isn’t like wine that gets better with age. It’s more like manna you must recognise wherever you are and whoever you are with.

4. You cannot call it ‘special rights’ when someone asks for the same rights you have.

5. It is no longer your personal religious view if you’re bothering someone else.

6. Marriage is a civil ceremony, which means it’s a civil right.

7. If how someone stimulates the public nerve has become the needle to your moral compass, you are the one who is lost.

8. To condemn homosexuality, you must use parts of the Bible you don’t yourself obey. Anyone who obeyed every part of Leviticus would rightly be put in prison.

9. If we do not do the right thing in our day, our grandchildren will look at us with the same embarrassment we look at racist grandparents.

10. When Jesus forbade judging, that included you.

“If you’re not careful, you will end up hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.” – Malcolm X.

“No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says. He is always convinced that it says what he means.” – George Bernard Shaw.

Christianity – the 2,000 old hate crime:

300AD – “God hateth the pagans!”

1700AD – “The Lord hates witches!”

1950AD – “God hates nigger-loving Jews!”

2012AD – “God hates fags!”

An overview of the same-sex marriage debate:

http://i.imgur.com/GQtOm.jpg
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August 6, 2012 11:27am
krazykiwi

Oh, todays GD thread. Look Jimmy’s just commented. Bet I know what he’ll be ranting about …

[..clicks to open thread..]

Yup. As predicted. Sad. Pathetic.
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August 6, 2012 11:37am
Lee01

Ryan,

I agree with you that the original argument was based on liberal presuppositions.

And I was not saying your response was nonsense. It was perfectly consistent with a Liberal worldview. I just don’t happen to share that religion.
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August 6, 2012 11:39am
Weihana

Lee01,

There is no such thing, especially when it comes to political and social issues, as a purely objective, “evidence” based approach. Such a claim is mere self-deceit.

Our minds sift the information we receive, even deciding what is and is not evidence in the first place. And our minds do this according to the dictates of our worldview, a worldview that is always at root, a faith assumption.

I disagree. Evidence-based knowledge is obtained from perception, not faith. Perception, derived from the senses, is self-evident. The validity of the senses is axiomatic because any argument to the contrary relies on concepts derived from sensory data and which therefore assume the validity of the senses.

For instance, an optical illusion is not an error in sight itself but rather it is an error in conceptualization.
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August 6, 2012 11:40am
Lee01

Griff,

Atheists believe in their own “sky fairy”. They just lack the self-awareness to be honest about it.
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August 6, 2012 11:43am
James Stephenson

Does most of society think that there is something special enough about a one-of-each pairing with the potential to create children, that it deserves at least a word of its own to describe it? I think that’s probably a “yes” isn’t it?

Civil Unions dealt with the main legal descriminations between different types of relationships (give or take adoption which should be a separate debate), so this is actually the “Telling people how they’re supposed to think about what marriage is” Bill? Call the thought police…
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August 6, 2012 11:44am
Lee01

Weihana,

Your opinions are a matter of faith, not “evidence based knowledge”.

There is no such thing as pure, objective knowledge. That’s just your own version of the “sky fairy”.

Which is why you constantly contradict yourself, giving one view on one thread, and a contradictory view on another, but then claiming that both contradictory views are “evidence based”.

But “evidence based” is just a dishonest figleaf you hide behind.
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August 6, 2012 11:48am
James Stephenson

Give it up Weihana, you’re trying to describe colour to someone who’s been blind since birth.
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August 6, 2012 11:52am
Lee01

Interesting argument James, given that I was brought up in an atheist family and shared that view through most of my early life.

So your right! I was blind from birth. I just chose not to stay that way:)
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August 6, 2012 11:57am
graham

Lance at 10:14 am: Looks like “peace” believes I am David Garrett; apparently based on the hugely relevant fact that we both commented about philu.

Seems we went through this a while back, and had great fun when about eight different people claimed to be the real David Garrett. I suspect if DG didn’t have a split personality before, he probably ended up with one by the end of that day!!!
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August 6, 2012 11:58am
krazykiwi

This Climate Change lark is great for Govt staff ‘performance’ bonuses:

Dept of Energy and Climate Change Bureaucrats Rake In £1 Million In Bonuses As Energy Bills Soar

The [UK] Government department that has failed to stop energy bills going through the roof paid out £1 million in bonuses to its civil servants last year, it was revealed today.

Mandarins at the Department of Energy and Climate Change grabbed £958,783 in 2011-12 – up £133,135 on a year earlier.

But in the same period many British households have been forced to pay at least £200 extra a year to heat and light their homes

Still those bonuses are small beer compared to the hundreds of millions wasted on wind and solar subsidies.
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August 6, 2012 11:58am
Weihana

Lee01 (2,122) Says:
August 6th, 2012 at 11:48 am

Weihana,

Your opinions are a matter of faith, not “evidence based knowledge”.

There is no such thing as pure, objective knowledge. That’s just your own version of the “sky fairy”.

I just gave you an argument in favour of objective knowledge which you failed to address. Mere assertion to the contrary does not disprove or undermine that argument.

Which is why you constantly contradict yourself, giving one view on one thread, and a contradictory view on another, but then claiming that both contradictory views are “evidence based”.

But “evidence based” is just a dishonest figleaf you hide behind.

I don’t believe I generally contradict myself as often as you suggest, but even if we presuppose that I do on a regular basis that in no way disproves my argument. My argument is that perception is self-evident, not that it is impossible for people to hold contradictory beliefs. If I hold contradictory beliefs that reflects on me alone. It does not prove that objective knowledge is impossible.
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August 6, 2012 11:58am
James Stephenson

@Lee01 – it’s called an analogy. You’re obviously incapable of grasping the concept of evidence-based.
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August 6, 2012 12:04pm
Pete George

Labour seem to have given up aspiring to be a major party and have accepted “we need the Greens” as their new motto. They seem to be waiting for power, albeit seveerly shared, to drop in their laps. They seem to be doing little more than:

– waiting for National to lose
– waiting for Greens to make up for the support they’ve lost
– waiting for the non-voters to give them the votes they think they deserve
– waiting for David Shearer to learn to lead

If they keep waiting until 2014 I wonder how much further they might have lowered their expectations.

Labour – waiting, waiting…
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August 6, 2012 12:06pm
Lee01

Weihana,

The problem is that you confuse two different things; sensory based reason, which is a useful tool, but like any tool is fit for some things and not others, and is not an infallible source of all truth, and your personal opinion on political/social issues.

Determining that a tree is not a rock is reason. Determining the issue of homosexual marriage is opinion only, and there is no pure objective evidence for that issue one way or another.
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August 6, 2012 12:13pm
Lee01

James,

“it’s called an analogy”

I call it pseudo-intellectual masturbation.

I understand what “evidence based” means. I just think it’s misused by some on this blog as a dishonest cover for subjective opinion.
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August 6, 2012 12:16pm
Pete George

And an indication of where Labour activism is at now, take a look at what was presumably yet another attack on National – Race baiting works, a little – which immediately became another dissection of Labour’s internal woes. Not a happy camp.

A problem may be that attack attack is so ingrained as a way of doing politics that when they try and deal with their own issues they don’t know any other way.
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August 6, 2012 12:22pm
Ryan Sproull

Lee, which dictionary’s definition of “religion” are you using when you refer to liberalism as a religion?
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August 6, 2012 12:25pm
Viking2

Has the real Redbaiter been exposed??

Shadowy oil trader’s Tauranga bank shell
MATT NIPPERT
Last updated 12:10 06/08/2012

Investors advised to be cautious Shadowy oil trader’s Tauranga bank shell Figures suggest wealthy carry tax burden Work and Income set to widen net on asset gifts? We haven’t done enough, insurance company says Auckland listings drop as sales soar Cautious approach to call for volunteers Liquidation case ‘highlights flaws’ Anger as commercial settlements faster Jobseekers: Think like a search engine

An Elvis-impersonating bankrupt is using his Tauranga home as the headquarters for a strange foreign ‘bank’ owned by a shadowy Russian businessman who paid bribes to circumvent United Nations oil sanctions against Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.

Last week the Sunday Star- Times outlined the financial shell kingdom of Tauranga ‘energy healer’ and former taxi driver Darryl Jensen who has incorporated, and uses his Parkvale home as the physical address for at least 37 foreign- based financial companies.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/7423245/Shadowy-oil-traders-Tauranga-bank-shell
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August 6, 2012 12:26pm
Lee01

Ryan,

A dictionary definition would be inadequate, as it would define “religion” too narrowly.

I define religion as a worldview that seeks to answer lifes most basic and primal questions; what is the meaning of life, why is there evil and injustice in the world, and what can be done to make the world a better place.

All religions seek to answer those questions, and Liberalism thus fits that definition of a religion.
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August 6, 2012 12:32pm
Lance

@KK
Why do you think money was wasted on solar subsidies?
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August 6, 2012 12:34pm
Ryan Sproull

A dictionary definition would be inadequate, as it would define “religion” too narrowly.

I define religion as a worldview that seeks to answer lifes most basic and primal questions; what is the meaning of life, why is there evil and injustice in the world, and what can be done to make the world a better place.

All religions seek to answer those questions, and Liberalism thus fits that definition of a religion.

It’s generally confusing to make up your own definitions for words.

What are Liberalism’s answers to those questions?
* Meaning of life
* Why is there evil and injustice in the world
* What can be done to make the world a better place
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August 6, 2012 12:38pm
James Stephenson

@Ryan – which definition of Liberal are you using? 😀
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August 6, 2012 12:47pm
liarbors a joke

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7423534/City-suffers-as-thieves-wreak-havoc

Stupid coppers standing around scratching their arses..heres a thought , maybe if you went out and did some policework you may catch the scum..much easier to sit back and wait for a phone call. Pfft.
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August 6, 2012 12:52pm
Ryan Sproull

@Ryan – which definition of Liberal are you using?

Whatever one Lee is using… Yes, I should ask him what that is.
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August 6, 2012 12:52pm
Griff

What are Liberalism’s answers to those questions?
* Meaning of life
* Why is there evil and injustice in the world
* What can be done to make the world a better place

Life is a sexually transmitted Disease
There is not its purely subjective Hitler liked killing Jews “good” the Jews had different view “bad”
Festivals involving Christians and lions would be good start

godwin hahaha
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August 6, 2012 12:53pm
publicwatchdog

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/videos-radio-network-house-imploded-christchurch-ck-125171

Wow!

Was this another controlled demolition?

http://www.ae911truth.org/

Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com
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August 6, 2012 1:01pm
Pete George

I don’t consider myself to be religious (at all) and I guess I’m partly liberal but wouldn’t claim that as a single label, but I’ve also put some thought into:
* Meaning of life
* Why is there evil and injustice in the world
* What can be done to make the world a better place

The first two are quite tricky, but the third is quite easy in theory – each of us need to what we can to be good and if possible better people.

One butterfly, a tiny flutter, but a billion butterflies could fan the winds of change for better.
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August 6, 2012 1:03pm
Weihana

Lee01 (2,126) Says:
August 6th, 2012 at 12:13 pm

Weihana,

The problem is that you confuse two different things; sensory based reason, which is a useful tool, but like any tool is fit for some things and not others, and is not an infallible source of all truth, and your personal opinion on political/social issues.

I agree “reason” is fallible. It is a human process to identify and integrate the data provided by our senses and so of course it is prone to error. But that wasn’t the issue. The issue was whether all beliefs were faith-based (as you have asserted). I have argued that perception based belief is not faith-based as the validity of the senses is axiomatic. The senses are a physiological process and therefore are the result of objective physical processes.

To base one’s beliefs on perception provides an objective basis for knowledge through the process of non-contradictory identification. But this does not imply that one necessarily has access to “all truth”. That is a shift in the goal posts on your part. I have merely attempted to demonstrate that people have access to some truth and that this is distinct from faith which doesn’t provide knowledge at all.

Determining that a tree is not a rock is reason. Determining the issue of homosexual marriage is opinion only, and there is no pure objective evidence for that issue one way or another.

The issue of homosexual marriage is a question of what we ought to do. So I agree it is distinct from simply identifying a physical object and distinguishing it from a different type of object. However, ethical questions can also be objectively determined provided a purpose is specified. For instance if one’s purpose is to construct a tall building then I can objectively conclude that construction ought to be coordinated by someone with engineering expertise. While it’s perfectly possible to desire a building collapse that would be a different ethical question with a different answer.

So no, I do not accept that ethical questions are purely a matter of opinion, but I do accept that the validity of any conclusion is limited in the context of a particular specified purpose. So given that you believe in a mythical creator of the Universe who condemns homosexuality then any ethical argument, including that pertaining to gay marriage, is based on inconsistent goal posts.
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August 6, 2012 1:16pm
Griff

All jokes aside PG

Do onto others as you would have them do onto you

A Simple rule for living in ‘society’

And no lee666 it was not invented by bjesus its actually pretty much universal

wiki
The Golden Rule or ethic of reciprocity is a maxim,[2] ethical code, or morality[3] that essentially states either of the following:
(Positive form): One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.[2]
(Negative/prohibitive form, also called the Silver Rule): One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated
As a concept, the Golden Rule has a history that long predates the term “Golden Rule” (or “Golden law”, as it was called from the 1670s).[2][7] As a concept of “the ethic of reciprocity,” it has its roots in a wide range of world cultures, and is a standard way that different cultures use to resolve conflicts.[2][6] It has a long history, and a great number of prominent religious figures and philosophers have restated its reciprocal, “two-way” nature in various ways (not limited to the above forms).[2]
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August 6, 2012 1:17pm
Manolo

Love me tender….not: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2012/08/book-details-obamas-dislike-of-romney/1#.UB8bzaB0icc
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August 6, 2012 1:21pm
Weihana

Pete George,

* Meaning of life
* Why is there evil and injustice in the world
* What can be done to make the world a better place

The first two are quite tricky, but the third is quite easy in theory

I would argue that all three questions are too ambiguous to answer. What does the phrase “meaning of life” mean? Are we looking for the literal meaning of the word “life” or does the phrase really mean what is the purpose of life? But then what does the word “purpose” mean in this context? Are we talking about a sentient creator of life that had some purpose in mind when he created us? Are we talking about the physical process by which life exists? Some of these questions have identifiable objective answers. Some of the questions presuppose the existence of things not observed (e.g. a creator) and so fall under the category of make-believe.

…each of us need to what we can to be good and if possible better people.

But what does it mean to be “good”? I think Lee01 has a valid point that a lot of people act like their beliefs are objectively based, but when in reality they are just as faith-based as his belief in the almighty.

But I would say that the terms “good” and “better” have objective meaning if understood in the right context. We often say “this is good” or “that is good” but in order for these statements to have objective meaning they need to be rewritten in the form “this is good… in order to accomplish some goal”. Whether or not an action achieves an outcome is something that can be determined objectively and so the term “good” is not merely a matter of opinion.
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August 6, 2012 1:45pm
krazykiwi

@KK – Why do you think money was wasted on solar subsidies?

Some thoughts…

1. It was wasted because Solar Power a comparatively expensive mechanism to generate electricity, and the panels which have a 20 year life, are filled with toxic elements and they therefore require careful (and costly) re-cycling.

2. It was wasted because subsidies for commercial operations create market distortions which in turn create harm to those who are forced to fund the subsidies. In this instance increasing number of Europeans are now in fuel poverty on account of solar (and wind) subsidy costs find their way back to their energy bills. Doesn’t help when northern numpkins decide to spend vast quantities of other people’s money installing equally vast solar power facilities in northern Germany.. where sunshine is at a premium. Go figure! And then these those southern numkins who subsidised Spanish solar generation so heavily that it made economic sense to run production 24×7… by lighting up the panels at night using diesel powered flood lights!

3. The reason it was wasted was acquire ‘Green’ votes.

I’m not an expert at this stuff… but it’s an interest area for me.
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August 6, 2012 1:48pm
David Garrett

Graham: Stop that! I told you you are only allowed to be me after the sun goes down…
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August 6, 2012 2:01pm
Griff

No KK you are not an expert
except at getting facts from the mythical website wwwfactsoutyourarsedotcom

1.projected life

Andy Black, one of the leading solar financial analysis experts and instructor, recently published his report on the lifespan of solar panels. His analysis showed that the first solar panels manufactured about 40 years ago are still creating power at about 80% of their original power. From that study combined with his other analysis, he concluded that most solar panels will lose about a half percent a year in efficiency.
more from http://www.appropedia.org/Lifespan_and_Reliability_of_Solar_Photovoltaics_-_Literature_Review

2 reducing carbon emissions is a noble yet futile undertaking Because of politics there is no hope that humanity will succeed in stopping global warming The impact of which is already being felt and will be left to our children to cope with
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10824792
The relentless, weather-gone-crazy type of heat that has blistered the US and other parts of the world in recent years is so rare that it can’t be anything but man-made global warming, says a top government scientist.

3 Pollitics
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August 6, 2012 2:14pm
Jimmy Smits

krazykiwi (8,260) Says:
August 6th, 2012 at 11:37 am

Oh, todays GD thread. Look Jimmy’s just commented. Bet I know what he’ll be ranting about …

[..clicks to open thread..]

Yup. As predicted. Sad. Pathetic.

Firstly, the reason for my post was in response to the fact that Fletch and Lee started today’s GD thread by ranting on about homosexuality.

Secondly, you are the sad pathetic one for believing in things that don’t exist. What’s worse is that you give money away to others who give sermons on this non-existent being. Then finally when you’re an 80 year old man, you realise your whole life has been a delusion:

I have a friend who just turned eighty-eight and she just shared with me that she’s afraid of dying. I sit here years from her experience and try to bring her comfort. I try to bring her comfort, . But what do I know? What do I know? . She grew up singing about the glory land, and she would testify how Jesus changed her life. It was easy to have faith when she was thirty-four, but now her friends are dying, and death is at her door. . Oh, and what do I know? Really, what do I know? . . She lost her husband after sixty years, and as he slipped away she still had things to say. Death can be so inconvenient. You try to live and love. It comes and interrupts. . And what do I know? What do I know? – Sara Groves.
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August 6, 2012 3:26pm
chiz

Cool. A camera on the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter is going to take a picture of the MSL as it parachutes down. So even it all goes wrong, and MSL crashes and irradiates Mars with its plutonium we’ll at least have pictures.
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August 6, 2012 5:06pm
Longknives

Awesome! I am an Argentine Hammer Thrower…

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19050139
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August 6, 2012 5:08pm
Luke Mutton

I’m an African Man thrower – Cedric Mandembo Kebika
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August 6, 2012 5:48pm
nasska

For those of us who have trouble deciding:

http://imgur.com/gallery/0eVsx
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August 6, 2012 5:57pm
Steve (North Shore)

chiz,

Who told you Mars has plutonium? That is classified information.
Only one other person knows about this, our Minister for Mars – and she banned Martian Plutonium
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August 6, 2012 6:12pm
krazykiwi

Firstly, the reason for my post was [my intense hatred of Christianity and Christians]

There, fixed it for you.
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August 6, 2012 6:21pm
Jimmy Smits

krazykiwi (8,264) Says:
August 6th, 2012 at 6:21 pm

Firstly, the reason for my post was [my intense hatred of Christianity and Christians]

There, fixed it for you.

True, just as the reasons for your posts, despite all the crap you guys claim about how you care about the children or the destruction of society, is simply because of your homophobia.
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August 6, 2012 6:26pm
freemark

That’s better people, enough of the gay marriage shit which is getting fucking boring.
If anyone needs a wedding or a bit of paper to prove that they are in love.. or are capable of being good parents..
Which is what it comes down to basically.
FFS grow up, live a little.
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August 6, 2012 6:27pm
nasska

As he drove along the highway, a guy kept seeing billboards with beautiful, tanned people and the words: Visit the Garden of Hedon. His curiosity got the best of him and he turned off the road at the entrance to the place a few miles down the road. He went inside a building marked “Registration” and saw an attractive woman sitting at a desk.

“Exactly what do you do here?” he asked.

“It’s quite simple,” said the receptionist. “This is a nudist camp. We take off all our clothes and commune with nature.”

“Cool,” said the guy, “count me in!” So he paid his membership fee, took off his gear and strolled off. As he walked along a path, he saw a big sign which read, “Beware of Gays.” A little further along he saw another sign which read the same thing: “Beware of Gays.”

He continued walking until he came to a small clearing which had a bronze plaque set in the ground. He bent over to read the plaque and it said, “Sorry, you’ve had two warnings!”
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August 6, 2012 8:00pm
Viking2

DOCTOR IN DUBLIN

A doctor in Dublin wanted to get off work and go fishing, so he approached his assistant

“Murphy, I am going fishing tomorrow and don’t want to close the clinic. I want you to take care of the clinic and take care of all me patients”.

“Yes, sir!” answers Murphy.

The doctor goes fishing and returns the following day and asks: “So, Murphy, how was your day?”

Murphy told him that he took care of three patients. “The first one had a headache so he did, so I gave him Paracetamol.”

“Bravo Murphy lad, and the second one?” asks the doctor.

“The second one had indigestion and I gave him Gaviscon, so I did sir” says Murphy.

“Bravo, bravo! You’re good at this and what about the third one?” asks the doctor.

“Sir, I was sitting here and suddenly the door flies open and a young gorgeous woman bursts in so she does. Like a bolt outta the blue, she tears off her clothes, taking off everyting including her bra and her panties and lies down on the table, spreading her legs and shouts: ‘HELP ME for the love of St Patrick! For five years I have not seen any man!'”

“Tunderin’ lord Jesus Murphy, what did you do?” asks the doctor.

“I put drops in her eyes.”
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August 6, 2012 8:03pm
Steve (North Shore)

John Key goes to a science exhibition and is shown a time machine which can see 100 years into the future..
The man in charge invites him to ask any question he likes.
John Key asks “What will Australia be like in 100 years time?”
The machine whirrs and beeps and goes into action and gives a printout, Which the man reads:
“The country is in good hands under the new Prime Minister, crime is Non-existent, there is no conflict, the economy is healthy. There are no worries.”
He has another go “What will China be like in 100 years time?” Another print out:
“The country will be the world’s leading economy and everyone there will Enjoy the highest standard of living in the world”
John Key then asks “What will New Zealand be like in 100 years time?” The machine whirrs and beeps and goes into action. The man gets a Printout, but he’s just stares at it.
“Come on”, says John Key “What does it say?”
The man replies, “I don’t know ! It’s all in bloody Maori!”
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August 6, 2012 8:03pm
nasska

Shona was about to be married and went to confession with a problem on her mind.
“Father” she said, “I believe an open and honest relationship is the foundation for a good marriage and I will need your blessing to admit to my fiance that my family is not perfect. For example,” she said, “There is my father who has long been an alcoholic, my mother is still working the streets, my eldest brother is still touching up little boys and of course brother Ned who fled to Australia to beat a murder charge, got married and is living there under another name.”
“My problem is Father, should I tell my fiance that my brother is married to an Aussie?”.
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August 6, 2012 8:14pm
Reid

Good article on Syria:

The Obama administration’s foreign policy makers must be on (lousy) crack. Just because they are engaged on an all-out war against not only Iran, but also Shi’ites all around, how could they possibly bet on a Somalization of Syria profiting Wahhabi intolerance?

http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2012/08/05/obama-does-syriana/

and

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2183869/Britain-secretly-equipping-Syrian-rebels-latest-satellite-phones-help-topple-Assad.html

Shame a hell of a lot of people are still even to realise the drop dead obvious FACT that the Syrian conflict has had US/UK involvement written all over it since day one. Honestly some people are so fucked in the head they shouldn’t even be allowed to drive into work, they’re too mental even to accomplish something simple like that.
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August 6, 2012 8:34pm
Viking2

Speaking of Aussie naaska;
Apparently they have contracted the NZ socialist disease.

Government blamed for Australia’s medal drought
6:37PM Monday Aug 06, 2012

Australia’s most senior member
of the International Olympic Committee Monday blamed the country’s dismal London Games medal haul on cuts in government funding, as New Zealand mocked its neighbour.

Australia is on course for its worst Games since Seoul in 1988, languishing in 24th place with just one gold by the end of day nine.

The money is the difference between silver and gold

It is seen as all the more embarrassing given the country’s much smaller neighbour New Zealand has three golds while traditional sporting arch-rival Britain has 16.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/olympics/off-the-field/government-blamed-for-australias-medal-drought-20120806-23pm3.html#ixzz22koZrfOh

Yep Its all the govment’s fault.
Just leaves me wondering when the likes of wuzzell and Sue and the whole Labour and Green movement are going to emigrate.
Sooner the better.Problem is Sue has a criminal record so they won’t let her in and Ducky Boy has his name in the records as well.

Oh well.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/olympics/off-the-field/government-blamed-for-australias-medal-drought-20120806-23pm3.html
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August 6, 2012 8:48pm
Viking2

Noice.

http://fashioncopious.typepad.com/fashioncopious/2012/08/miranda-kerr-nudes-by-laurent-darmon.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+FashionCopious+%28Fashion+Copious%29
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August 6, 2012 9:00pm
nasska

V2

That evil gummint…..it all their fault.

I reckon that the least we can do is spare the poor buggers a few of our socialists to tell them where they went wrong! 🙂
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August 6, 2012 9:01pm
Viking2

Did you like the freindly pics on the next post naaska?
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August 6, 2012 9:18pm
Reid

This is interesting:

Pictogram of number of nukes by country

http://zazenlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/do-not-use-nuclear-weapons1.jpg
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August 6, 2012 9:23pm
Viking2

Look at what the Aussie Socialists are up to now.

http://screencast.com/t/OiTMqiziD

Won’t do them any good of course.
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August 6, 2012 9:25pm
nasska

V2

Real class….I’m highly impressed not to mention the possibility that I may have fallen in love. 🙂
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August 6, 2012 9:27pm
niggly

Has anyone else noticed that Farmers (the department store) have more-or-less taken over the TVNZ website? http://tvnz.co.nz/

TVNZ – what a joke this once proud institution has become.

Perhaps TVNZ’s Sales and Marketing Dept has taken over running the SOE?
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August 6, 2012 10:00pm

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