General Debate 18 August 2012

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Colville

Woot!

and now off to work!
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August 18, 2012 8:01am
Viking2

Raining Still.
Bummer.
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August 18, 2012 8:23am
Pete George

I emailed all MPs about poor MP behaviour in parliament and not surprisingly the strongest responses were from Green MPs, including: frustrating, demeaning, unproductive, variable, poor.

Kennedy Graham and Gareth Hughes spoke in more detail – Green comments on parliamentary behaviour.

Labour MP Ross Robertson advised he has a a Member’s Bill:

Members of Parliament (Code of Ethical Conduct) Bill

Explanatory Note
The purpose of this Bill is to provide a Code of Ethical Conduct for members of Parliament.

It’s a pity this relies on the whims of ther members lottery, and it’s a pity the parties can’t insist on ethical conduct from their MPs. But this is worth more attention.
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August 18, 2012 8:31am
Monique Watson

the Basin flyover decision:
FFS. The way the green party are talking about the flyover and the destruction of the cities heritage. You’d think that the sky was about to fall in rather than the simple construction of a road. Over another road.
Fisked here: They Would Say That. It’s Against Progress

http://nowoccupy.blogspot.com/2012/08/if-course-tthey-would-say-that-its.html

So Russell Norman is American and Julie Anne Genter the transport spokesperson is American. Which is fine but aren’t they xenophobic. Or is that just WP?
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August 18, 2012 8:44am
wat dabney

Seeing as the unofficial Green Party slogan is “lie, cheat, steal” it’s a bit rich for them to be proposing a standard of conduct. Authoritarian, nationalistic, racist fascists hiding behind a fake green agenda. They don’t have an iota of ethics between them.
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August 18, 2012 8:50am
hj

Money cures racism Watt:

“Chinese economy we all know about…
Chinese government says it’s time to grow offshore…..
Let’s take a good selection of New Zealands “products” over….
“We’re all New Zealanders, we all love the country so I think it’s healthy for us to have the debate and make the right decisions for our country…. but hey!…. young people coming through see it as “our planet” rather than “our country”
Harcourts Showcase more than 800 million of property in Shanghai
http://static.radionz.net.nz/assets/audio_item/0011/2385074/mnr-20100824-0842-More_than_800-million_dollars_worth_of_property_on_display-m048.asx
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August 18, 2012 8:59am
All_on_Red

The Greens (and greenies) are all about saying things which make them look good when they stand in front of a mirror. If they for once considered the consequences of their policies and the money those policies waste they may realise they are actually keeping people poor. For example they want energy to cost more when really low cost energy would solve so many problems in our world.
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August 18, 2012 8:59am
Chuck Bird

Should the CAA be making decisions about skydiving when it would appear they know little about it? The suggestion then skydivers wear seat belts till they are ready to jump seems just a bit impractical and could easily cause more problems than it could possibly solve.
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August 18, 2012 9:09am
wat dabney

“If they for once considered the consequences of their policies and the money those policies waste they may realise they are actually keeping people poor.”

They fully understand this, but at the same time they understand that it is good politics.

They will willingly impoverish the whole country if it means gaining power for themselves.
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August 18, 2012 9:13am
kowtow

All on red

The green leaders know full well the consequences of their policies. They’re not as stupid a some would make out.
Thankfully we still live in a democracy so if the greens did spell out the full implications of their policies the majority of dumb bastard city dwelling well to do idiots that vote for them wouldn’t and it would be game over.
There would still be a hard core of wannabe hippies who would vote for them,if they could get through the incense haze or off the self composting toilet to cast their ballot.
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August 18, 2012 9:16am
Paulus

Can anybody please tell me –
Was/Is Mary-Anne Genter as an US Citizen eligible to be a New Zealand MP.
The US laws are very srtict about what a US Citizen can actually do in terms of voting anywhere, and therefore retaining US eligibility.
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August 18, 2012 9:16am
Komata

Wasn’t that the issue that cost a Dutch chap (Van der Velden?) his seat in new Plymouth or somewhere a little while back?

But, of course because Genter is a gween, that is quite OK – wussell says so. If it was anyone else he would be going ballistic about unfairness etc, etc, etc… You know – the usual.
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August 18, 2012 9:26am
Reid

Word to the wise:

financially:
http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/report-soros-unloads-all-investments-in-major-financial-stocks-invests-over-100-million-in-gold_08162012

and politically:
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2012/08/china-launching-gold-backed-global-currency-2451114.html

If you don’t have a lot to invest, consider silver, it’s got a better multiplier.
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August 18, 2012 9:27am
Monique Watson

That Genter has been in NZ for a while so she is most likely eligible to be an MP in New Zealand. She has however written the most awful paper on parking and the impact on inner city land prices. Google:
How minimum parking standards underpin car dependence: the new parking management paradigm. I tried to save a copy to link to but my Macbook is working against me today.
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August 18, 2012 9:54am
Ross12

This argument in Wellington about the flyover is amazing –those against say the tunnel option is ONLY another $100 million.
Don’t they stop and think what could be achieved by saving the $100 mill. and maybe spending it in other areas or god for bid not spending it at all.
But John Morrison has them stuffed –he reminds everyone that the tunnel would be below sea level and in an area where we are all meant to be worried about earthquakes a tunnel would be stupid. ( For people outside Wellington –in the 1800’s the Basin Reserve used to an area where some coastal boats would tie up to unload. In other words all that area was swampy —just like the CBD in Christchurch)
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August 18, 2012 10:24am
Reid

A great article by Paul Roberts: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2012/08/16/is-washington-deaf-as-well-criminal/
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August 18, 2012 11:06am
publicwatchdog

Here you go Kiwibloggers!

Have fun with this post! 🙂
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Ask yourself, would you invest in a company that is losing customers?

Most importantly, if there is not enough interest in the share offer the Government probably won’t sell Mighty River Power. It will also raise questions about its ability to sell-off other assets.

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___________________________________________________________________________

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http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com
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August 18, 2012 11:23am
graham

Banks tells of hurt over ‘wild’ allegations

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10827771

Good to see he has been vindicated, and in his words it is about fighting back hard. Go Banksy!
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August 18, 2012 11:30am
gander

@Paulus, August 18th, 2012 at 9:16 am

Can anybody please tell me –
Was/Is Mary-Anne Genter as an US Citizen eligible to be a New Zealand MP.
The US laws are very srtict about what a US Citizen can actually do in terms of voting anywhere, and therefore retaining US eligibility.

@Komata, August 18th, 2012 at 9:26 am

Wasn’t that the issue that cost a Dutch chap (Van der Velden?) his seat in new Plymouth or somewhere a little while back?

===

One of the resident legal experts may be able to correct me on this, but here goes:

I reckon Harry Duynhoven of New Plymouth was tripped up by the NZ law at the time forbidding MPs from acquiring the citizenship of another country. For about a two year period the Dutch government offered an “optieverklaring” that enabled former citizens of the Netherlands to recover Dutch citizenship lost, say, by naturalisation of one’s parents in another country. I’m betting that Harry went through that process without thinking anyone in NZ would be fussed about it.

Julie-Anne Genter would not be in the same situation unless she took steps to gain or regain USA citizenship.

She will find, though, that the USA have now made it very difficult to lose or renounce USA citizenship.

Disclaimer: I am not, and have never been, a lawyer or a Labour or Green supporter.
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August 18, 2012 11:31am
Reid

IT’S PEOPLE POWER TIME! PLEASE SHARE THIS INFO AND HELP IT GO VIRAL!!!
http://www.facebook.com/SwitchOffMercuryEnergy

Penny you’d better watch it because I understood the Nats inserted a secret clause in their state asset bill which authorised the sale, which made it an act of treason for anyone deliberately to undermine the value of any asset that was to be sold, and the penalty was death. But it gets worse, because before anyone convicted of said offence gets offed, they HAVE to, in other words, there is no judicial discretion here, they HAVE to have a giant cacti shoved up that orifice where only customs men fear to tread. And this is a full 24 hours before the execution. So its rather nasty I’m afraid. BTW in case you’re curious I understand the reason they decided not to tell anyone about it is not the obvious “the public will object blah blah.” No. The reason was that they calculated if anyone was going to be guilty of it, it would HAVE to be a lefty and therefore, it would be so much more amusing for all concerned if it all turned out to be a big surprise so everyone would get a much bigger bwahaha out of it and there wouldn’t be any downside, because as I said, it would HAVE to be a lefty so no-one except the family and other lefties would even care, and they don’t even count.

I do hope it’s not too late to hit delete on your 11:23 but hey, if not, there we go. C’est la vie eh? You’ve had a good innings Penny. Can’t complain really, can you. GL over the next 24 hours or so…
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August 18, 2012 11:57am
hmmokrightitis

komata, gander is dead right. And labour had to enact retrospective legislation to cover the stumpy harry’s stupidity.

You should hear him bleat 😉 Loves having his photo taken does our harry, turn up to the opening of a friggen envelope. Thankfully next years election will most likely see him turfed…
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August 18, 2012 12:03pm
Reid

Hague: We are determined to see ‘alleged criminal’ Assange extradited to ~~Sweden~~ America

I wonder if the US is going to compare and contrast the British enthusiasm with ours over Dotcom and what that might mean to future developments in his case over here?
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August 18, 2012 12:41pm
David Garrett

Are you an NP boy Hmmo? Great place the ‘Naki….I have very good memories of the place…but for some foolish decision making about ten years ago I would still be there…
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August 18, 2012 12:42pm
Keeping Stock

Here you go Penny; National won; the Left lost; eat that (where have I heard that before?)

Far from wanting to stop the sale of MRP shares, I will be applying for an allocation on the day that the share issue opens. I’m not looking to make a fast buck; they will be a long-term investment to which I will likely add over time. And when the Good Lord calls me home, they will pass to my children, not to one of those nasty foreign investors that you guys seem so obsessed about and afraid of.

Your so-called “people-power campaign” will not work, because not enough people care; they just want to move on now and buy their shareholding.

And as a PS, you might want to remove the “dodgyjohn” thingee now, given that Hon John Banks has been cleared by the Police, whilst you of course are trespassed from his office; who’s dodgy now Penny?
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August 18, 2012 12:48pm
flipper

DOTCOM….!!!!

Is anyone keeping score?

Is the Crown Law/FiB/Police team on the scoreboard yet?

As total waste of our money! And to think that under current rules Crown Law faces NO financial restraints.
Ore is there a MOU betweren US and NZ whereby they will meet our coists? I’ll wager not.
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August 18, 2012 1:08pm
Don the Kiwi

Penny Bright – Anti corruption campaigner.

Bwahahahahahah.:lol:
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August 18, 2012 1:27pm
BillODrees

A major change has occurred.

Fran O’Sullivan’s piece in the Herald today is one of many pieces of evidence that it is now a matter of “WHEN” rather than “IF” Cunliffe takes over the leadership.

The sheer stupidity of the briefing to Garner by the faction has shifted the frame in which Cunliffe is viewed. The trite personal shallow stuff that has been repeatedly rolled out by most journalists has lost all of its currency. No journalist will want to be seen to be blindly relaying drivel from the faction.

The debate has shifted to genuine policy positioning. The re-assessment of the last 30 years of economic and social “conventional wisdom” was overdue. Thank you Cunliffe.

That the much younger Cunliffe is so much more grounded, skilled and experienced than Shearer has also been glaringly highlighted. Shearers’s gauche and weak handling of the recent issues contrasts dramatically with Cunliffe’s studied calmness and focus under heavy fire.

The “WHEN” for Cunliffe and the vast majority of the Labour Membership cannot be thwarted by the faction and the proposed rules. The membership must make the Caucus respect it’s wishes.
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August 18, 2012 1:33pm
Reid

Goody.

No more TrapWire from today onward. Yeah right.

http://rt.com/usa/news/anonymous-trapwire-optrapwire-surveillance-870/

Seriously, while Anonymous has its limitations when it comes up against the likes of DARPA, NSA, GCHQ et al, this will be an interesting test of the authoritarian resolve to maintain this insidious system in the face of public opposition. It would be a serious problem for those in authoriti, were it not for the FACT that the media is tamed and restrained and will never bite the hand of its masters, these days. But the internet is NOT owned by the evil ones, and that’s where this will be played out and there are enough alternative media channels on here, that even if this battle never reaches the TV/Newspaper channels where the public lie, it will be watched blow by blow on this medium. That’s why for me, it’s goody.

I predict if Anonymous make inroads and they may or may not, it depends, that those in authoriti will just quietly fold their tent and steal away, because they’ve got another half-dozen systems all ready in train or even already deployed, which will do just as well and they’ll just let Trapwire serve as “the people’s victory” for that class of useful idiot who allow themselves to remain fooled, all of the time.
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August 18, 2012 1:39pm
Hamnida

Obama 2012.

Cunliffe 2014.
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August 18, 2012 1:41pm
Reid

This is very informative on a number of levels to anyone interested in spiritual matters, whether or not you are religious. It’s not religious, so those who aren’t, don’t worry. Rather, it’s spiritual: i.e. what our spirit is, how it interacts with our world. It’s very long, but in small discrete bites, so you can watch fragments at a time and you still get a coherent story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaDOkMEK4uk&feature=related
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August 18, 2012 1:53pm
hmmokrightitis

David: Yes, transplanted from the Big Smoke a few years back, wanted to give our kids the opportunity to ride bikes to school. And for us to have neighbours we talked to. Not only do the kids ride to school – 12, 10 and 8 – but we get together with our neighbours on a regular basis. I work from home, and on the odd day I go in to town for meetings and the like – a 5 minute drive, even though we live on the outskirts of town on 5K sqm, views to the ocean and the mountain.

The interweb is helping bring places like NP alive again, and it rocks for being an awesome place to raise kids. In fact my 8 year old is riding bikes around the street with her best buddy, who lives across the road. Shell be home in time for dinner. Like it was when I grew up.
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August 18, 2012 3:06pm
Reid

Kidnapping’s back in style in Lebanon. Also this:

“This is the unravelling of the Sykes-Picot agreement,” said Walid Jumblatt, the leader of Lebanon’s Druze sect, in reference to the secret agreement between the British and French in 1919, which carved up the Levant into spheres of influence in the wake of the Ottoman empire’s demise. “We are seeing the end of what was created 90 years ago. The consequences will be very, very, grave unless they are managed properly.”

And they won’t be managed properly. That’s the whole idea. Not to, that is. This is why:
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/08/14/256166/us-harbors-divisive-plots-on-global-scale/#.UC8RBN0gdEA

You know what’s extraordinary to me in all of this? That to my knowledge not one major western geopolitical scientist has come out in the media with what’s really been going on in Syria, not one, in the 18 or so months that the campaign has been waged. The reason it’s extraordinary to me is, these academics constantly claim they’re kind, sensitive souls who really do care about human rights and wouldn’t dream of hurting others, yet they’ve collectively stood by while the media have woven a tapestry of falsehood and outrageous lies. While innocent people are tortured, raped and killed with utter brutality these kind, sensitive souls in American academia have, to my knowledge, stayed completely silent. Mahdi Nazemroaya is simply reflecting what has been clearly obvious to those with eyes since the campaign began, and yet, none of the western academics it seems has ever thought to engage with their oh-so politically correct colleagues for instance and form a coalition of “Academics against US aggression” or similar. That would get attention despite the media blackout which would ensue, if it happened. But no, apparently not. Can’t endanger the tenure, can we. No. Might as well come out and j’accuse Israel as well. Imagine what happen then, to the old pension.

Sad. Tragic. Shameful, quite frankly. After all, if they did speak up, they could always claim to be doing so so they didn’t make the same mistake as did Martin Niemöller. What could Israel say about them then?
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August 18, 2012 4:06pm
chiz

Ahmadinanutjob calls Israel an Insult to all humanity.
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August 18, 2012 4:06pm
Reid

I think chiz you’ll find that:
a) Iran has never invaded any nation whereas Israel has done so how many times since 1946 so based on recent history who should be concerned about whom?
b) he’s reacting, that’s R-E-A-C-T-I-N-G to Netanyahu’s recent comments which overrule the Israeli military’s advice not to attack Iran
c) he’s talking about the Zionist regime, which is not the Israeli people.

But many western people find it hard to see those distinctions, schooled as they are by the western media, to ignore even the possibility that such distinctions could even exist, let alone that they do exist.

Tell me chiz, why does the merest hint of criticism of the Israeli govt always being instant emotional reaction from some people? It’s just that it’s like it’s a subconscious psychological phenomena that gets triggered by keyword, like “conspiracy theory” except with Israel, it’s always much more emotional. It’s interesting, that’s all.
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August 18, 2012 4:34pm
chiz

reid:That to my knowledge not one major western geopolitical scientist has come out in the media with what’s really been going on in Syria, not one, in the 18 or so months that the campaign has been waged.

They’ve been analysing the situation in Syria for some time now. They haven’t been repeating your conspiratorial nonsense about Syria because they realise that it is nonsense.

Iran has never invaded any nation

That’s because it has proxies.
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August 18, 2012 4:40pm
Reid

That’s because it has proxies.

What, Lebanon? Syria? Yeah they’ve done lots of invading haven’t they chiz. I mean everyone knows about the marauding Lebanese – they’re famous. Funny how history never mentioned the fiendish Iranians were really behind them all this time, but perhaps that’s because Israel and yourself didn’t get to write world history in the last century or so. I mean if you had, then of course the world would know all about the mythical sacking of Cairo in the 50’s by the marauding Lebanese, wouldn’t we. Get real chiz. Learn actual history, try not to invent it simply to justify your emotional prejudice. That never works. Tummies don’t think very well, chiz. Even if they make you feel better on the inside for thinking it.

They haven’t been repeating your conspiratorial nonsense about Syria because they realise that it is nonsense.

Real countries like China and Russia don’t think its nonsense chiz. This is precisely why they’re not giving in, in the Security Council. Or hadn’t you noticed?
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August 18, 2012 4:47pm
F E Smith

That’s because it has proxies.

That is a very good point. Iran sponsors both Hezbollah and Hamas, two terrorist organisations that have used suicide bombers and rockets against civilian Israeli targets.

Iran is also known to assist the Taliban with money, weapons and training, as well as being responsible for supplying the ‘resistance’ that has previously operated within Iraq.

Iran has a great deal of blood on its hands.

Anyway this:

“The nations of the region will soon finish off the usurper Zionists in the Palestinian land…. A new Middle East will definitely be formed. With the grace of God and help of the nations, in the new Middle East there will be no trace of the Americans and Zionists,”

is in no way equivalent of Israel’s acts of self-defence.
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August 18, 2012 4:51pm
chiz

Hizbollah are Iranian proxies Reid. This is well known and has been written about by plenty of people.

China and Russia have their own concerns about Syria that are motivating their actions, not rabid conspiracies.
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August 18, 2012 4:52pm
Reid

Hizbollah are Iranian proxies Reid.

Yes I know. So is Hamas. So what? Do you think therefore a country of 170 million should be invaded? And do you think Hezbollah and Hamas represent existential threats to Israel?

If so, can you please send me a million dollars right now, because if you do, I promise I will give you two million by tomorrow morning. That’s a cool million by Sunday morning chiz. Think about it, and let me know.
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August 18, 2012 4:56pm
Reid

Anyway this is in no way equivalent of Israel’s acts of self-defence.

Crikey FES. Really?

So Israel’s actual, real murders: e.g. the ones on the Gaza convoy interception but you know, etc etc etc etc etc etc cast lead etc etc etc blah blah Iranian scientists, on and on and on and on. Those actual, real, factual deaths of human beings are simply acts of self defence whereas Ahmidinijad’s words, not actions, not murders, but mere words, are “in no way equivalent?”

Really?

BTW, isn’t it interesting that as soon as Israel is mentioned, hysteria reigns. Those of you who are currently participating, might want to look at your inner thoughts and emotions right now. Because frankly, we’re talking about the geopolitics of a nation. And therefore you should not have any. And if you are emotional, which I’m sensing in your comments, you should be asking yourself, from whence has this arisen. If you wish to understand social conditioning, this is a key. It’s the same as they use in advertising. So why have you got it? If you have.

And personally, the topic was Syria.
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August 18, 2012 5:04pm
chiz

whereas Ahmidinijad’s words

So, all those suicide bombers and the rockets that have been aimed at Israel are just “words”? And those rockets didn’t come from Iran? Ahmidinijad has threatened to wipe Israel off the map, and Khamanei has described Israel as a cancerous tumor that must be wiped out.

BTW, isn’t it interesting that as soon as Israel is mentioned, hysteria reigns.

Isn’t it interesting that as soon as Israel is mentioned conspiracy rings out?

Those of you who are currently participating, might want to look at your inner thoughts and emotions right now. Because frankly, we’re talking about the geopolitics of a nation. And therefore you should not have any. And if you are emotional, which I’m sensing in your comments, you should be asking yourself, from whence has this arisen

If you are sensing emotion in my comments then you need to practice your reading comprehension skills.

And personally, the topic was Syria.

You took it off topic then.
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August 18, 2012 5:21pm
Reid

So, all those suicide bombers and the rockets that have been aimed at Israel are just “words”? And those rockets didn’t come from Iran? Ahmidinijad has threatened to wipe Israel off the map, and Khamanei has described Israel as a cancerous tumor that must be wiped out.

Pinpricks against an elephant, chiz. This is what you Israel-firsters can’t seem to comprehend. I mean let’s just take the main example. Israel has 100+ nukes and delivery systems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

Iran isn’t even allowed to have one.

WTF is wrong with this picture? It’s this, chiz.

Why do you assume Iran would automatically use one if she had one? I mean it’s major fucked in the head territory. It really is. Because for you to actually believe that you would have to believe a nation of 170 million isn’t a proper country, but that it’s ruled by mad people who would ignore the MAD doctrine and would in their fanaticism sacrifice their whole country of 170 million souls for the sake of fulfilling their religious duty which you don’t even know for sure, but which you suspect, consists mainly of killing jews because that’s what the west says it’s about.

Now remember North Korea and that guy? So you’re saying, Iran is much, much worse than that guy. Seriously, that’s what you’re saying. Just for context. Back to the muslim fantasy.

Now even though you’re not a muslim, you’ve read that muslim’s really hate jews and they just want to kill them. And you’re not even a muslim chiz. But here is you and most of the western world, illogically assuming that you know muslims better than they do, and you know for sure, without doubt, that if any muslim ever got their hands on a fucking nuke, why the first thing they would do regardless of anything else, is rush over to the first jew they could find and let it off.

And the real point is, you know this without doubt. You’re so certain about it you’re willing to risk WWIII on you being right, that you don’t care if Russia and China get involved against the US, just so long as Iran is taken out before she ever gets a nuke.

Do you know how fucking stupid that is? Yet this chiz, is precisely what you believe, isn’t it.

You took it off topic then.

I raised Israel, you jumped on it like a hysterical schoolgirl. It’s just I can’t be arsed saying the same old things time and again, this particular Saturday night.

Isn’t it interesting that as soon as Israel is mentioned conspiracy rings out?

Pray explain chiz. I’m a geopolitical realist and I take my Israeli analyses from real analysts. It’s not conspiracy, just because you think it is.
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August 18, 2012 5:38pm
Fletch

Iran has never invaded any nation whereas Israel has done so how many times since 1946 so based on recent history who should be concerned about whom?

Reid, Israel has never invaded another country unless it happened while they were defending themselves after being attacked or provoked.
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August 18, 2012 5:51pm
chiz

This is what you Israel-firsters can’t seem to comprehend

Where did I say or imply that I was an Israel-firster? You appear to be reading more into my comments than is there. I was simply pointing factual inaccuracies in what you were saying.

Why do you assume Iran would automatically use one if she had one?

The question isn’t what I believe but what the locals believe. If Iran obtains nukes then other countries in the region, like Saudi Arabia, will try to obtain them. The more countries in the region that obtain them, the greater the risk that they will be used, especially since many of the countries are unstable. Look at the concerns that people have, for example, at the Pakistani nukes and the questions of whether or not they could fall into the wrong hands.

but that it’s ruled by mad people

Iran is ruled by mad people.

Yet this chiz, is precisely what you believe, isn’t it

I’m impressed with your ability to ascertain what I believe. Telepathy?

I raised Israel, you jumped on it like a hysterical schoolgirl

WTF? I posted a link to something that Ahmidinijad said. I posted it solely because I thought that some people might be interested in reading it, not because I personally agreed or disagreed with it. It turns out that at the time I was typing it up you were also typing up something. My comment appeared a few seconds after yours, and then, like a hysterical schoolgirl, you jumped all over it.
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August 18, 2012 5:55pm
kowtow

reid

China and Russia are shitting themselves as they watch rebellions all over the shop.
Each has substantial Muslim minorities (among others) that,along with Islamics everywhere are becoming very restive.Think Chechenya.

The last thing they want is a precedent set at the UN Security Council that would allow foreign intervention on their sovereign territory. Thereare probably alot of other issues at play,but that’s likely the predominant one.
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August 18, 2012 5:55pm
Yvette

Banks tells of hurt over ‘wild’ allegations. Good to see he has been vindicated, and in his words it is about fighting back hard. Go Banksy!

But has Banks ever explained why he asked for the Dotcom donation of $50,000 to be split into two deposits of $25,000 each?
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August 18, 2012 5:56pm
Reid

Fletch, if Israel only ever defended herself and that’s all she ever did, the ME would not be in the state it’s in.

If you truly think Israel is beset upon by unreasonable countries acting unreasonably and that’s all there is to it, I respectfully suggest you need to read more history from sources other than who you’ve used to date. I’d prefer not to get into all the details if that’s OK, but I’m absolutely serious. From my readings over several decades, there are points of view other than simply the West’s, which demand to be recognised and heard on this subject, if one is interested in the truth of the matter and frankly, who isn’t?
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August 18, 2012 5:59pm
Other_Andy

I often wondered what your one-eyed obsession with Iran is Reid.
I know many people who would defend the Iranian people (fair enough) but not many who would defend the Jew hating, holocaust denying, totalitarian, terrorist supporting, undemocratic and oppressive theocratic Iranian regime.
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August 18, 2012 5:59pm
Fletch

As a commentor on Yahoo puts it –

It depends on how you want to use the word “invaded.”

Israel has never sought war and never sought to take other people’s land.

After Egypt declared war on Israel, sealed the straits an act of Tiran (another act of war under the existing treaty between them), massed troops on the border, kicked out the peacekeepers and declared they would destroy Israel imminently, Israel then attacked them and ended up winning the Sinai.

After Syrian attacks, they did attack back and win the Golan.

They promised Jordan they would not attack Jordan if Jordan did not attack Israel first. Jordan asked for 24 hours to think about it and then attacked Israel first. Israel won the WB and Gaza.

Israel immediately offered to trade all land won for peace. No takers.
Eventually Egypt asked if the deal was still available and Israel said yes and traded the Sinai (with a billion dollar airport Israel built and oil wells) for peace.

On two separate occasions Israel has “invaded” Lebanon but only AFTER repeated attacks on Israel from Lebanon. The last war began after Lebanon fired scores of rockets into Israel, invaded Israel and killed several Israelis and kidnapped one Israeli first.

Israel never invaded Iraq, although they did take out Iraq’s nuclear weapons program.
Thank G-d they did.

If Iraq had invaded Kuwait and had nukes…

It’s all a matter of historical record…
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August 18, 2012 6:25pm
graham

Don’t know, Yvette. Don’t really care either – I only said it to wind up Penny! 🙂
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August 18, 2012 6:28pm
Reid

The question isn’t what I believe but what the locals believe. If Iran obtains nukes then other countries in the region, like Saudi Arabia, will try to obtain them. The more countries in the region that obtain them, the greater the risk that they will be used, especially since many of the countries are unstable. Look at the concerns that people have, for example, at the Pakistani nukes and the questions of whether or not they could fall into the wrong hands.

Sorry chiz nuclear geopolitics is not like a child’s playground. If SA decides it wants a nuke it doesn’t just say to its Minister of Technology go out and hire and build one. And neither does any other country in the region. No. This is because nuclear technology is very de-stabilising. And regional stability is considered critical (“critical” as in, not nice-to-have most of the time but must have, all the time) not just by those in the region but by those with an interest in it. Such as, in the case of the ME, those nations who draw energy from it. Which means everyone. Which means who has what nuke wise in the ME is a very touchy subject not only for those in it but for all the big boys, who, because they’re big boys, all get to have much, much more of a say, than even the ones in the region themselves. Hence if SA said “Iran’s got one, I want one too” then guess what: the US would get involved, Israel (as the #1 friend of the US) would get involved, BRICS would get involved. All would have their say. SA would be informed of the outcome, in due course.

WTF? I posted a link to something that Ahmidinijad said. I posted it solely because I thought that some people might be interested in reading it, not because I personally agreed or disagreed with it. It turns out that at the time I was typing it up you were also typing up something. My comment appeared a few seconds after yours, and then, like a hysterical schoolgirl, you jumped all over it.

Fair enough, sorry about that then. And yes I did. I guess I’m the hysterical schoolgirl. (How can I make this into a positive?) 🙂

China and Russia are shitting themselves as they watch rebellions all over the shop.
Each has substantial Muslim minorities (among others) that,along with Islamics everywhere are becoming very restive.Think Chechenya.

Kowtow China has a substantial energy relationship with Iran, so does Russia and she is also interested, esp now Putin’s back, in giving the US the fingers over the international stage. That’s been driving it from day one. Those minority issues are important if the home country gives a fuck about the UN but neither of those do, except for when it benefits them to pay it lipservice. IMO.
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August 18, 2012 6:30pm
Luke Mutton

Fletch (3,206) Says:
August 18th, 2012 at 6:25 pm
As a commentor on Yahoo puts it –

It depends on how you want to use the word “invaded.”

Israel has never sought war and never sought to take other people’s land.

That is only true if you ignore history. What happened in 1948, Fletch?
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August 18, 2012 6:47pm
Other_Andy

1948 Mutton?

In 1948, after Arabs reject U.N. partition for a “two state solution”, five Arab armies attacked Israel, with Azzam Pasha, the General Secretary of the Arab League, announcing ahead, “This will be a war of extermination, a momentous massacre, which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.”
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August 18, 2012 7:04pm
Harriet

Fletch#

Anatoly Dobrynin who was Soviet Ambassador to the US from about the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis up till I think Bush snr quoted in his Memoirs that the KGB has learnt to never trust the ME.

The Soviets had always been friends with Israel and most others in the ME up till the time of the war with Egypt[the soviets told Israel not to attack, as they the Soviets were friends with everyone in the ME, and besides that, Israel would get beaten, but if Israel did attack, then the USSR would end it’s relationship with Israel] Israel did attack and won. The Soviets kept their word and dealt moreso with the arabs than Israel in the advancing years.

And from that experiance of the Soviets dealing with the Arabs, the KGB said that they were ‘always stabbed in the back and learnt to never trust the ME’ -Dobrynin’s words.

I read his Memoirs Fletch – in October 2001!
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August 18, 2012 7:06pm
Viking2

A video worth watching. About a minute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Hzgzim5m7oU&vq=medium
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August 18, 2012 7:08pm
slijmbal

was it just me or was Joyce really quite impressive on the Nation today?

he was knowledgeable and smacked the pre-schoolers they had interrupting him about something rotten. They pretty much stopped interrupting and shut up in the end as they were looking silly.

I’ve not paid much attention to him before but see him as a better looking treasurer than English because of his ability to hold his own in an argument.
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August 18, 2012 7:19pm
Harriet

Luke Mutton#

“….That is only true if you ignore history. What happened in 1948, Fletch?…”

There is only two pillars that hold up the ME – Pride and Shame!

A loss is seen as good enough reason to fight another day, and a win is seen as being in the right.

And that is why young Muslim males are ultra violent towards anyone and anything that opposes them – in anything.They do not behave like western males, where we have learnt to, and are expected to see ‘reason’.

Just ask the SAS troops what they do when they see a 12yld boy throw a rock at his sisters head in Afganistan – they do nothing because it is a war of ‘hearts and minds’ over the general populace. The Talibahn is the enemy because they are mysoginists amongst other things.
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August 18, 2012 7:24pm
Viking2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOK1E5Amrzs

about the might of America.
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August 18, 2012 7:33pm
Yvette

graham – Don’t know, Yvette. Don’t really care either – I only said it to wind up Penny!
________________

Oh – so did I 🙂
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August 18, 2012 7:34pm
chiz

Reid:If SA decides it wants a nuke it doesn’t just say to its Minister of Technology go out and hire and build one

No, but it could buy one from a friend. More here.

This is because nuclear technology is very de-stabilising

Which is the point I was making. Israel has concerns about Iran’s nuclear program because it believes, rightly or wrongly, that they might end up being used, deliberately or otherwise, against it. However other countries, while they may in some cases have sympathies to Israel’s concerns, are also concerned about proliferation. The region is unstable enough as it is without having nukes everywhere. Even Russia and China don’t want Iran to have nukes.
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August 18, 2012 7:42pm
Viking2

Happy People Dancing on Planet Earth

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120710.html
Video Credit: Matt Harding & Melissa Nixon; Music: Trip the Light

Explanation: What are these humans doing? Dancing. Many humans on Earth exhibit periods of happiness, and one method of displaying happiness is dancing. Happiness and dancing transcend political boundaries and occur in practically every human society. Above, Matt Harding traveled through many nations on Earth, planned on dancing, and filmed the result. The above video, the latest in a series of similar videos, is perhaps a dramatic example that humans from all over planet Earth feel a common bond as part of a single species. Happiness is frequently contagious — few people are able to watch the above video without smiling.
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August 18, 2012 7:54pm
chiz

Kowtow:The last thing they want is a precedent set at the UN Security Council that would allow foreign intervention on their sovereign territory. Thereare probably alot of other issues at play,but that’s likely the predominant one.

That is an issue for China. They don’t want anyone intervening in their affairs, so, for consistency, they vote at the UN to they oppose overt intervention in other countries (although they are happen to intervene covertly, by applying pressure behind the scenes, to some of their neighbours).

For Russia its a bit more complex and I’m not sure that intervention is the issue. They certainly don’t have any problem themselves intervening militarily in their neighbours. One concern they have is the large number of russians living in Syria. Another, possibly the main one, is that as a former Superpower that has lost a lot of the power and prestige it once has, it doesn’t want to lose an ally and have one less friend in the world.

Russia has also claimed publicly that they are concerned about chechen separatists traveling to Syria and forming links with other militant jihadists although their policy on Syria is prolonging things and actually making this more likely.
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August 18, 2012 7:56pm
nasska

A knight and his men return to their castle after a long hard
day of fighting.
“How are we faring?” asks the king.

“Sire,” replies the knight, “I have been robbing and pillaging
on your behalf all day, burning the towns of your enemies
in the west.”

“What?!” shrieks the king. “I don’t have any enemies to
the west!”

“Oh, no…” says the knight. “Well, you do now.”
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August 18, 2012 8:00pm
Steve (North Shore)

Maybe tomorrow there could be a “Generaly Religious Debate” for a change?
Some of the grandstanders and experts here are so fucked up, aren’t you?
The beach was nice today, as was the walk in the sunshine. The wankers are addicted to the daily blog – head cases
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August 18, 2012 8:30pm
Reid

V2 @ 7:33. Thanks.
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August 18, 2012 9:25pm
Hamnida

Joyce looked terrible. Probably the most arrogant display from a politician I have ever seen.

The best National can hope for is Judith Collins.
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August 18, 2012 10:03pm
KH

Israel an insult to all humanity. Yes it is. Absolutely.
You don’t even need to look to history or who invaded who.
Look at today and look internally inside it’s borders.
Israel persecutes and crushes the Palestinian people.
Look at the use of ‘settlements’ and ‘walls’
And a million people in Gaza locked up and isolated from the world.
Disgusting.
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August 19, 2012 8:11am
hmmokrightitis

“Joyce looked terrible. Probably the most arrogant display from a politician I have ever seen.

The best National can hope for is Judith Collins.”

And thusly it is confirmed – must have been on fire for the resident of Fucknucklestan to comment.

Arrogant – you never saw the SheBeast in full flight then, that much is obvious…
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August 19, 2012 9:10am

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