General Debate 31 July 2012

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Manolo

For thedavincimode, sensitive soul among us: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7379643/Porkys-drugs-empire-outlined-by-associate
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July 31, 2012 8:12am
kowtow

France has some major problems due to high levels of Islamic immigration.

http://www.france24.com/en/20120726-fears-after-mob-attacks-police-during-islamic-veil-id-check
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July 31, 2012 8:28am
Redbaiter

A graphic emphasizing the treachery of John Key’s National Party-

http://truebluenz.com/2012/07/30/all-the-same/

Would this gutless stand for nothing surrender monkey have admitted to his stance on homosexual marriage during the election campaign?

No way.

Proving Key is just another cowardly and duplicitous Progressive, barely distinguishable from Helen Klark and David Shearer.

He has destroyed the National Party and in his absolute lack of any kind of political conviction, also destroyed true democratic choice in New Zealand.
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July 31, 2012 8:35am
Pete George

David Clark has come up with a number for the cost of raising the minimum wage – $427m. It’s not clear if this is just for the increases to $14, or if it also includes expected increases from $14 with then inevitable upward push.

What is clear is more of Clark’s anti-business rhetoric. He’s learnt his union phrases well. David Clark: more (or less) on the minimum wage.

Clark is very much representative of Labour on this.
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July 31, 2012 8:46am
barry

It seems the asset sales programme might be in the shit.

National signed the UN indigenous peoples right thingy (that labour wouldnt sign) and that gives LEGAL protection to such things as water. Its way beyond the influence that the treaty might have, and it cant be ignored. Much more to come on this one yet.
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July 31, 2012 8:47am
Manolo

It was inevitable the Waitangi Tribunal would side with those who claim the water and fear, conveniently located, taniwhas. Let’s see how this “brave” government responds.

I hope that, for once, Key & co. show some balls when dealing with the greedy racists.
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July 31, 2012 8:57am
Chris2

Criminals abuse New Zealand’s liberal company laws

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20120730/as-new-zealand-shell-companies/
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July 31, 2012 9:01am
kowtow

I love it,Keys’all touchy feely inclusiveness with the racists (that the media so loved at the start of his first term) is coming home to haunt him.

One man, one vote. Binding referenda and a common sense of citizenship free of race is what we need.
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July 31, 2012 9:04am
kowtow

More senseless shooting in America……….no wait.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7372970/Shots-hit-bedroom-used-by-children
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July 31, 2012 9:05am
Tauhei Notts

Bob Jones in this morning’s New Zealand Herald; possibly his best article ever.
Brilliantly written.
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July 31, 2012 9:16am
flipper

Pete et al
On the minimum wage, please note that the baseline $ is just the start. Add to that 8% holidays, Sick pay 2%, ACC 3% and Kiwisaver 3 or is it 4% … plus admin costs.
So $14 would become $16.50 plus The red melons $16 is really $19 plus.

And the rate in USA is ??????? Still less than $10
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July 31, 2012 9:19am
Pete George

flipper – yep. The problem is not the current bill, it won’t get past Go. But if a Green+Labour government gets in…
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July 31, 2012 9:24am
Tauhei Notts

Flipper,
You omitted 4% statutory holidays.
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July 31, 2012 9:25am
Lee01

Yes, I read Bob Jones this morning as well. Brilliant!

I don’t always agree with Jones, but this article hit the proverbial nail on the head.
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July 31, 2012 9:27am
Lee01

“Queer Avengers also call for a struggle “beyond marriage””

“The Queer Avengers stress that marriage equality is not the end of line for LGBT rights and that struggles beyond marriage lie ahead.

“There are many family structures which marriage and adoption law does not cover, for example polyamory and whangai adoption. “This is not the final struggle,” Sara concludes. “We’re looking ahead to the struggles beyond marriage.””

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1207/S00376/queer-avengers-also-call-for-a-struggle-beyond-marriage.htm

This is the way a civilisation ends.
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July 31, 2012 9:31am
Keeping Stock

Not once, but twice, in seperate articles, does the Dom-Post describe David Shearer as “the invisible man”. Grant Robertson will be pleased…

http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2012/07/the-invisible-man.html
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July 31, 2012 9:36am
David Garrett

Lee01: Well if not “the end of civilization”, at least a perfect example of what happens when you start re-defining terms such as “marriage”, whose meaning has been agreed and understood for centuries.

Who can remember the Klark government’s assurances when the Civil Unions bill was passed that “its not marriage…gays are not interested in marriage, they just want their partnerships recognised?”
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July 31, 2012 9:44am
kowtow

I see in the article about Wall being pleased with PM’s backing that Chauvel is calling polygamy an “outlandish notion”.

Not that long ago “marriage equality” would also have been an outlandish notion.

And if equality is the goal then polygamy and p’andry are surely not outlandish.

This must be very upsetting to minorities in our multicultural society where those forms of marriage are valued,Tibetans and Muslims, Africans for example. Many of us who celebrate diversity and equality will be upset by his insensitive comments ,particularly coming from someone who identifies so closely with minorities who have a history of discrimination against them.
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July 31, 2012 9:47am
Lee01

“Who can remember the Klark government’s assurances when the Civil Unions bill was passed that “its not marriage…gays are not interested in marriage, they just want their partnerships recognised?””

If you tell a lie often enough…..
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July 31, 2012 9:52am
thedavincimode

Buit Manolo, what about the guy on the front page of the Herald the other day? Was he just the wrong colour?
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July 31, 2012 9:55am
Redbaiter

Homosexuals can of course live as they choose, however they do not have the right to force a redefinition of the age old institution of marriage upon the rest of the population.

Especially by means of legislation supported by such a bunch of crawling spineless left wing gutter snipes as are the bulk of the present parliamentary gang.
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July 31, 2012 9:59am
Manolo

No, dear thedavincimode. He is scum as any other crook. Criminal behaviour is colour-blind.
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July 31, 2012 10:00am
thedavincimode

It is indeed. Perhaps you were busy just making the toast then Manolo.
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July 31, 2012 10:09am
calendar girl

PG: do tell us whose election sign you defaced. (No response yesterday?)
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July 31, 2012 10:27am
Pete George

cg: Warren Cooper’s
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July 31, 2012 10:29am
Nookin

PG

That is not defacing. That is enironmental mitigation.
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July 31, 2012 10:32am
KiwiGreg

I cant see the objection to polygamy, so long as informed consenting adults are involved.

Although as that old queer Oscar Wilde said “bigamy is one wife too many and so is monogamy”
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July 31, 2012 10:34am
Jimmy Smits

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3qaa6o/
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July 31, 2012 11:12am
thedavincimode

Well exactly KG. It’s not my business nor anyone else’s. Why is there a Government intervention preventing it?
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July 31, 2012 11:22am
calendar girl

Thanks, PG. It’s 16 years since Cooper was an MP, and a lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then.

It was fairly obvious that I was interested in knowing which politician or Party managed to attract your earlier vandalism, so well done on your voluntary disclosure.
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July 31, 2012 11:25am
Yvette

They muck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were mucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style ties and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man,
Especially if he marries him.
Or a woman weds her girlfriend
“I do” is all they need to say
Until they need to tell adopted kids
Your Mum and Mum are both gay.
Or your Dad and Dad, as the case may be
May be enough to turn a kid
To heterosexuality.

– sorry, Philip Larkin
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July 31, 2012 11:36am
krazykiwi

It’s not my business nor anyone else’s. Why is there a Government intervention preventing it?

At 101km/h I’m deemed to be posing more risk to the general public, irrespective of where I am and/or who is around me. But there’s no plan to deregulate – the research points to increased harm.

As fewer biological parents are involved in the raising of children they are more at risk. There should be no plan to deregulate – the research points to increased harm
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July 31, 2012 11:39am
KevinH

Sir Bob Jones can join company with his fellow history revisionists as they attempt to rewrite history to suit their one eyed views. If Maori were to follow his lead then a case could be made to toss the Crown out and Maori could resume control of their country and resources. There are after all two parties to Treaty, not one as inferred by Sir Bob.
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July 31, 2012 11:49am
Paulus

Good article Bob J.
Nail on the proverbial head.
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July 31, 2012 1:07pm
David Garrett

KevinH: Interesting that you use the phrase “history revisionists”…because that is exactly what the Sir Robin Cooke led Court of Appeal became in the 1980’s when they decided that a document which had been held to be “a simple nullity” by our courts for 110 years or so was suddenly became “our founding document”, containing all these wonderful “principles” which generations of Judges had failed to find in it.

I don’t want to bore you or others with a disquisition on international law as it applies to treaties between nation states. Suffice it to say there are a number of requirements – not least of them that the the parties are themselves capable of entering into a treat with another nation state – before one can say that a document is a “Treaty” as the law understands that term. The so called “treaty” fulfills none of them. But don’t take my word for it – consult any text which covers the subject of how states make treaties with each other, and how the contents of such treaties become part of each nation’s domestic law (There’s a little clue for you).

If the “treaty” was anything at all, it was a treaty of cession, under which one party cedes sovereignty to the other. That is what Article 1 contains – a cession of sovereignty by the tribes who signed it to the British Crown.

But sadly that Jack is long out of the box….the political reality now is we either resign ourselves to endless demands from the “treaty partner” or we make a stand and say “enough”. You’ll be pleased to know I think there is little to no chance of the second happening.
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July 31, 2012 1:13pm
Manolo

The heat is on: http://www.cnbc.com/id/48400076
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July 31, 2012 2:26pm
Jimmy Smits

Dear Christians:

God here. I thought I would take the time to personally explain my absence in the Aurora shootings. While I was at it, I thought I would also explain my absence during every murder, massacre and crime that has ever taken place in World history, and in every war, in every famine, drought and flood.

You see, I do not exist. I never have. Did it really make sense to you that I would create an entire Universe with billions of billions of planets and wait about 13,700,000,000 years just so I could focus on a few Jews from Palestine about 2,000 years ago while ignoring the rest of the 200,000,000 people on the planet at the time? Did I make those few Jews or did those few Jews make me?

Further, do you really think I would sit back and do nothing while Nazis killed 6 million of my “chosen people,” but find it important enough to intervene and turn water into wine to stop some hosts being embarrassed at a wedding in Cana? Why did I seem to be so active in the Middle East for a brief period about 2,000 years ago, but totally absent everywhere else on the planet and for the rest of recorded history? Did I make the Jews or did the Jews make me?

So, you really think my periodic miracles prove my existence hey? Then why not something inarguable and unambiguous, like a huge crucifix in the sky, or my face on the moon? Why is it always that believers have to construct my miracles out of perfectly explicable natural events?

This happens every time there is a tragedy or near tragedy of any kind, anywhere in the world and in all cultures. Captain “Sully” Sullenberger pilots a distressed plane to land safely on the Hudson River in New York City with no deaths, and it’s a miracle from God; a young girl is found in India, totally terrorized, but alive after being abducted and ra.ped for a week, and it’s a miracle from my competi.tor Rama (or Vishnu or Shiva) that she is returned to her parents; or a family in Northern Pakistan survives an errant American missile attack, and it’s a miracle from Allah.

What all these self-serving proclamations of miraculous intervention always ignore is the downside of the incidents. The fact that the passengers and crew of Flight 1549 were terrorized and the plane destroyed, that 11 innocent people are dead in Aurora, that the girl was held for seven days, ra.ped and sod.omized and will be traumatized for the rest of her life, or that a number of innocent civilians were killed by the missile.

Of course, none of these incidents really are “miracles.” When the totality of facts are taken into account, “miracles” turn out to be nothing more than believers who are desperate for some sign of my existence ignoring the downside of a set of facts, focusing solely on the upside and calling the quarantined “good” a miracle from me or one of the other sky-fairies. A CEO might as well ignore the liability side of his balance sheet and declare it a “miracle” that his company just doubled in value.

Another annoying habit my “miracles” seem to have is that they always seem to tag along, just behind medical science, like an annoying kid brother who won’t go away. Until the mid nineties, those with AIDS who prayed for a miracle were never granted one. Medical science finds a way to permanently suppress the disease, and all of a sudden I start to perform miracles with AIDS patients. No polio patient ever received a miracle until the Salk vaccine and I routinely ignored cancer patients until chemotherapy and radiation treatments were developed. Suddenly, prayers to me from cancer patients are regularly “answered.”

Why is it that I still seem deaf to the pleadings of amputees who would like their fingers, arms or legs back, to those who have physically lost eyes or ears, to the horribly burned and to all others who ail from patently visible and currently incurable maladies? Why is it that, at the very same time, I am very receptive to the prayers of those whose condition is uncertain, internal and vulnerable to miraculous claims?

Take five minutes to make two lists; one of those ailments I will miraculously cure and the other of those I will not. You will quickly find it coincides perfectly with those conditions medical science (or the human body itself) can defeat and those we cannot. Why do you think that is? It is almost as my miracles are created out of medical ambiguity isn’t it?

No, my human friends. I am afraid I do not exist. I do not read your minds (or “hear your prayers” as you like to call it) and you are not going to achieve immortality (or “eternal life” as you like to call it) no matter how many commandments from Iron Age Palestine you choose to “keep”. Move on and enjoy the few years you have. You were all dead for the last 13,700,000,000 years and it wasn’t that least bit uncomfortable now, was it?

God

Top Ten Signs You’re a Christian

10 – You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 – You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 – You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 – Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” including women, children, and trees!

6 – You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 – You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 – You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs – though excluding those in all rival sects – will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”

3 – While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity.

2 – You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 – You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history – but still call yourself a Christian.
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July 31, 2012 2:35pm
Steve (North Shore)

that is mysterious Jimmy
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July 31, 2012 3:03pm
kowtow

Jimmy/God

You’ve gone to a lot of effort there.

Maybe you need to take your own advice…….move on and enjoy what few years you have left and don’t worry so much about those billions of believers you say don’t matter that much to you. FFS.
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July 31, 2012 3:43pm
nasska

I slight bit of overkill there Jimmy…..It would take much of the fun out of this blog if you chased off all of God’s little helpers.
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July 31, 2012 4:09pm
Lee01

Well I guess I’m not a Christian, as none of those points is true for me, and for that matter, none of the other Christians I know.

As I have said before, the sheer amount of time, effort, and emotional angst some anti-Christians display (like Jimmy and Big Bruv) says way more about their own unresolved psychological issues.
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July 31, 2012 4:13pm
Yvette

Auckland pub to host church services
A beer at church will put a new slant on Sunday services.
Pastors Calvin Culverwell and Vic Francis are turning Albany Sports Bar into a make-shift church, starting this Sunday.
Members of the Protestant Albany Shore Vineyard Churches have been working on the project for a year. They aim to help people reconnect with religion in a relaxed place.
The congregation can have a beer during the service, and pizza and fries would be provided.

But considering Luke 18.16 – Suffer the little children to come unto me
there is irony that
The service is open to anyone over the age of 18.
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July 31, 2012 4:26pm
Lee01

An Anglican minister in a rural farming area started a church ministry for men called “A pie and a pint” at a local pub.

It was very succesful. Can’t think why. 🙂
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July 31, 2012 4:29pm
nasska

He’ll go far that vicar…..getting earbashed about your sins is easier to take on a full gut. 🙂
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July 31, 2012 4:35pm
Pete George

An excellent graphic at NZH on how How MPs plan to vote on gay marriage.
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July 31, 2012 5:03pm
graham

Lee01 at 4:13 pm –

Funny that, me too! Darn, and all this time I thought I was a Christian. Huh.
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July 31, 2012 5:30pm
Other_Andy

Civil Unions – A Blast from the Past

David Benson Pope

After all, what is being asked for here seems so modest. Marriage remains something available solely to a man and a woman. Civil unions offer an alternative to those unable to marry, or who do not wish to marry. Civil unions are to be a new relationship option that takes nothing from anyone else, while providing choice to people currently denied it.

http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/Debates/b/a/a/47HansD_20041209_00000803-Civil-Union-Bill-Procedure-Third-Reading.htm

Tim Barnett

The Marriage Act is very simple legislation. Marriage is made by its history, its tradition, and its culture, and nothing in the Civil Union Bill affects those. We have a new institution, created in the 21st century, that will develop its own tradition and its own culture.
So civil union is a new institution, a new name, and separate to marriage. That is what it is all about.

Georgina Beyer

The member who just resumed his seat will be pleased to know that the Civil Union Bill does not touch the sanctity of marriage that the member talks about. We are not seeking marriage, with this bill; we are seeking a civil union.

http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/80216814-615E-4868-A57A-0C53FBD022E2/68318/47HansD_20041208.pdf
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July 31, 2012 5:36pm
publicwatchdog

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10823341

Has this had anything to do with Adam Feeley’s resignation?

How come on Mr Feeley’s watch, Don Brash and John Banks were never charged for signing Huljich Kiwisaver Scheme registered prospectuses dated 22 August 2008 and 18 September 2009 which contained untrue statements?

The ‘old boy’ network protecting DODGY John Banks?

That’s how I for one ‘perceive’ it.

[John Banks is the Leader of the NZ ACT Party and MP for Epsom, upon whose pivotal vote the Mixed Ownership Model Bill (which allows ‘partial privatisation’ of essential electricity assets) was passed 61 – 60. ]

Penny Bright

‘Anti-corruption campaigner’
Attendee: 2010 Transparency International Anti-Corruption Conference

http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com
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July 31, 2012 6:08pm
Steve (North Shore)

Nutter Alert

Attendee: Hurstmere Road Sparrows Farting Contest every Sunday
http://www.pennydimisstillhere.com
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July 31, 2012 6:11pm
nasska

This could help to explain some of the misunderstandings we have here from time to time.

Ref: http://imgur.com/gallery/vjJxN
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July 31, 2012 6:33pm
David Garrett

Other Andy: I well remember this stuff at the time….That is part of how they “sold” the whole civil union thing…”it’s NOT marriage…we don’t want marriage….”

Did they have Tui billboards back then?
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July 31, 2012 6:37pm
Viking2

Different times, different people.
Remember that when someone wants to alter what you acheived David.

Not saying its right or wrong just an observation about life in the fast lane.
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July 31, 2012 6:48pm
Other_Andy

@Viking2

“Different times, different people.”

True.
But also…

“Same party, same tactics, same agenda”
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July 31, 2012 6:53pm
Puzzled in Ekatahuna

Penny, quite obviously you have found some corruption and wrongdoing at last.
But nothing so far, except your own illusions, to connect it to Mr Feely’s resignation.

However
Since 2010, they’ve found 2,600 illegitimate companies, and have been de-listing companies that don’t comply with various rules at the rate of more than 1,000 per month. Yet with more than 560,000 companies now registered in New Zealand one for every eight citizens the database is large and growing.
– publicwatchperson’s link
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10823341

There should shortly be an FBI instigated New Zealand Police operation with AOS and helicopters to arrest someone or other and shut the whole disgraceful site down.
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July 31, 2012 6:59pm
Manolo

The poor Miss Dim cuts a pathetic, almost laughable, figure. What about a match with Ure?
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July 31, 2012 7:01pm
nasska

One day a 12-year-old boy was walking down the street when a
car pulled up beside him and wound down its window.
“I’ll give you a bag of lollies if you get in the car” said the
driver.
“No way, get stuffed!” replied the boy.
“How about a bag of lollies and 10 bucks” the driver asked.
“I said no way” replied the boy
“What about a bag of lollies and 50 bucks?” asked the driver.
“No, I’m not getting in the car.” answered the boy.
“Okay, I’ll give you a bag of lollies and $100” the driver offered.
“No!” replied the boy.
“What will it take to get you in the car?” asked the driver.
The boy replied: “Listen Dad, you bought the Volvo,
it’s all yours.”
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July 31, 2012 8:07pm
Reid

http://www.businessinsider.com/31-economic-indicators-are-breaking-down-2012-7
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July 31, 2012 8:08pm
Steve (North Shore)

BREAKING NEWS:…
The Pity Train has just derailed at the intersection of Suck It Up & Move On, and crashed into We All Have Problems, before coming to a complete stop at Get the Hell Over It. Any complaints about how we operate, can be forwarded to 0800-waa-aaah Quitchur Bitchin’ ..suck it up Maori Party, life doesn’t revolve around you.
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July 31, 2012 8:26pm
Reid

http://www.youtube.com/embed/4CYqw4s6XF8?rel=0

Politicians being mental
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July 31, 2012 8:32pm

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