General Debate 25 July 2012

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Colville

Uno !
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July 25, 2012 8:07am
Keeping Stock

Big ups to coroner Garry Evans for an unequivocal coronial report, even if Chris Kahui’s legal team has managed to soften it somewhat.

http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2012/07/a-coronial-bombshell.html

RIP Chris and Cru; you deserved better.
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July 25, 2012 8:10am
Pete George

Dunedin mayor and councillors (7-6) voted for a national moratorium on fracking.

* Nothing to do with DCC locally (consents would be handled by Otago Regional Council).
* Local bodies have no need to intefere in national politics.
* No council expertise on drilling or fracking.
* No hits on ‘frack’ or ‘fracking’ on the council website.
* No public consultation.

It looks like the council resources and time are being used on personal political agendas.

It’s none of the Dunedin City Council’s fracking business!
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July 25, 2012 8:42am
Luke Mutton

Is Mitt Romney America’s Biggest Arsehole?

“Today, America lost one of its greatest pioneers. The first American woman in space, Sally Ride inspired millions of Americans with her determination to break the mold of her time. She was a profile in courage, and while she will be missed, her accomplishments will never be forgotten.”

And that was as far as he went. Of course, she broke other barriers, too, but Romney won’t admit that HIS policies saw her condemned to second class status. Policeis Romney will continue.

Greta Christina puts it beautifully

Memo to Mr. Romney: If you don’t support our most fundamental relationships — if, in fact, you dedicate a significant amount of your political career to undermining those relationships, and make political hash out of marginalizing us and playing on people’s fears and hatred of us — you don’t get to speak about us with sentimental gushing after we’re dead.

Second memo to Mr. Romney: Fuck you.
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July 25, 2012 8:43am
hj

Elizabeth Rata:
“It is difficult to understand the commitment by many New Zealanders to the idea that a racial division between two peoples should be built into our political and administrative arrangements. This has given iwi such instititutional power that current moves to extend that power to a constitutional separation of two polities, each with its own public, is scarcely surprising despite such a move being profoundly anti-democratic.

For several decades now I have analysed this inexplicable commitment by New Zealand’s governing class to retribalisation. My recently published book, The Politics of Knowledge in Education* includes an analysis of the ‘two peoples’ myth within the wider context of the re-racialisation of society and reactionary tribalism. Given that democracy was the great political movement of working people throughout the world to overcome the tyranny of traditional oppressive regimes it defies reason that we, Maori and non-Maori like, have so casually and timidly enabled, even welcomed, a return to tribalism.”
http://www.nzcpr.com/guest298.htm

http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2010/05/taking-greens-seriously.html
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July 25, 2012 8:58am
Rufus

Luke – you’re becoming very tiresome. RIP
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July 25, 2012 9:01am
hj

“In education it has meant considerable change to the type of knowledge that is taught at school. Rather than knowledge justified by its disciplinary base in the arts, humanities and social sciences, we now emphasise knowledge drawn from experience. Experiential knowledge can be used to separate one group of people from another, as happens with the Maori non-Maori ‘two peoples’ myth. Of course it is not surprising that disciplinary knowledge has come under attack from reactionary intellectuals given that it is the knowledge developed in the disciplines that has enabled the modern world’s challenge to tradition. That objective, universal, scientific knowledge provides the rational concepts that enable us to think beyond our experience and to overcome the confines of culture.”
http://www.nzcpr.com/guest298.htm
http://www.rogersandall.com/the-culture-cult/
http://www.rogersandall.com/the-culture-cult-revisited/
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July 25, 2012 9:06am
hj

We are controlled by groups> the most motivated, most certain of the truth (Keith Locke, Sue Bradford and disciples) or those with most to gain. Look into it Pete George.
We need a Grey Party for those who aren’t sure about anything.
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July 25, 2012 9:14am
Keeping Stock

@ Rufus – “becoming”?. I would actually say “have become”; and in just 24 posts too!
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July 25, 2012 9:15am
kowtow

Oh dear victimhood comes to kiwiblog in the form of Luke Muttonhead being oppressed by what Romney didn’t say!

It’s called freedom of speech,an important concept in the west. Perhaps Mutton should move to North Korea,they’d make a meal of him there.
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July 25, 2012 9:16am
hmmokrightitis

Bit harsh I say – what Luke posted was to me very true. Is he the US’s biggest arsehole? No idea. But what was posted is fundamentally true. Mitt gets all soppy about a person who he spends most of his life railing aginst.

Doesnt that smack of political opportunism to you?
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July 25, 2012 9:40am
Other_Andy

@hmmokrightitis

“Mitt gets all soppy about a person who he spends most of his life railing against.”

I must be missing something.
What did he do to her?
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July 25, 2012 9:48am
kowtow

Hyperbole alert

“spends most of his life railing against”
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July 25, 2012 9:50am
Manolo

Is Luke Greg Presland too?
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July 25, 2012 9:51am
thedavincimode

hmmokeydokey

No, it smacks of the GOP having to rummage around in the very bottom of the apple barrel to find a Presidential candidate.

The Kenyan must be laughing his tits off.

But enough of that. I’m far more concerned about Reid’s comment yesterday that the deathbed confession strategy is not fail-safe. This is most distressing because that plan has been a cornerstone in reconciling my life choices with my afterlife options.

Reid

How can my grand plan possibly go wrong?
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July 25, 2012 9:55am
nasska

You might be a bit tough on Lambchops. He may have some batshit mad opinions but at least he uses capital letters & realises that full stops are a finite resource.
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July 25, 2012 9:56am
thedavincimode

9.57 am

They must have sent milky on a course.

Edit: We must be paying for milky to go on a course.
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July 25, 2012 9:57am
hmmokrightitis

Meh, Im not exercised enough to enter the debate. Mitts a homophobe of the first water. Luke recognised that, as I do. That fact seems to rile some here, which isnt that surprising I suppose.
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July 25, 2012 9:58am
thedavincimode

exorcised surely??
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July 25, 2012 9:59am
wiseowl

PG

Hell I fracking agree with you.
This issue is being hijacked around the country by elected council greenies that have no idea what they are talking about.

Theres a rumble on fracking taking place in teraneki this weekend.
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July 25, 2012 10:05am
backster

While the Kahui travesty is the latest example of another killer walks free, the bizarre events in a Christchurch monkey court illustrates just how out of kilter justice in this country is http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/7332494/Man-shot-after-girlfriend-remark …..A young fellow walking down a Christchurch street says something and the eventual perpetrator pulls out a gun and shoots him in the eye and then in the head. The victim loses the sight of the eye and a ball bearing remains in his head. The victim starts to make a victim impact statement in the court. The Prosecutor interrupts and tells him to stick to her sanitised script. The victim becomes emotional and is unable to continue, but what he probably thought was “How the bloody hell can I read your script when my eyes been shot out. ” The Judge decides that $10,000 was appropriate compensation for the eye and as well the perpetrator could do some community service.
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July 25, 2012 10:07am
Other_Andy

@hmmokrightitis

Ah, I get it..
She is gay?
Mitt doesn’t agree with the whole gay agenda and therefore “spends most of his life railing against”.
I see.
Newsflash…
Most people don’t define themselves by their ‘sexuality’ and have gay and straight on the brain 24/7.
Identity politics to the extreme.
Soooooo tiring.
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July 25, 2012 10:12am
Manolo

mike, the Labourite, must be away attending this: http://www.twoa.ac.nz/certificate-in-te-ara-reo-maori-level-2
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July 25, 2012 10:14am
wiseowl

@backster
And today the report (christchurch) about tracking the burglars who then thumb their nose at the police by telling them they need a search warrant.
Something dreadfully wrong when they were caught I believe ,legitimately.
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July 25, 2012 10:16am
Komata

hj: Thanks – it’s about time someone in academia stood up and barked; especially as some of her (sadly, Maori) compatriots are anything but impartial – especially at UoW. Sadly, it’s odds-on bets that the MSM and all the usual suspects (including those who inhabit here) will now crawl out of the woodwork in their droves and attempt by all and any means to denigrate the lady. They don’t like the truth. Just hope it’s not too late.
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July 25, 2012 10:43am
Dave Mann

@hj (2,630) Thanks for the links. Really thought provoking!
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July 25, 2012 10:43am
kowtow

I despair for the future of Aotearoa with all of this anti wealth shite going on.
PG tells us the DCC is against fracking,from a colony whose wealth and success was proudly based on gold mining ( and still is to a lesser degree).
And then we have this lot of Luddites.

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/218375/protesters-unite-against-drilling
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July 25, 2012 10:45am
Weihana

Other_Andy (1,911) Says:
July 25th, 2012 at 10:12 am

@hmmokrightitis

Ah, I get it..
She is gay?
Mitt doesn’t agree with the whole gay agenda and therefore “spends most of his life railing against”.
I see.
Newsflash…
Most people don’t define themselves by their ‘sexuality’ and have gay and straight on the brain 24/7.
Identity politics to the extreme.
Soooooo tiring.

In what manner did Sally Ride “define” herself by her sexuality? In fact she expressly preferred to keep it private.

But the fact remains that she was gay and it appears rather shallow to celebrate the life of someone whilst also denouncing a major part of their life as inferior and 2nd class.

It’s like Richard Dawkins celebrating the life of Jerry Falwell or the Pope mourning the passing of Christopher Hitchens.

In such cases the sentiment would appear hollow as it does in this case.
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July 25, 2012 10:46am
Pete George

The Dunedin council call for a fracking moratorium countrywide (there’s no fracking in Otago, neither is any planned) has been confirmed as part of a national activist campaign. The same old Greens and Occupyers.

I’m just dumbfounded that the DCC has heen suckered in by them.
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July 25, 2012 10:56am
Other_Andy

@Weihana

You’re a case in point Weihana.
Gay gets dragged into every conversation.
Did it cross your mind that Romney might not even know she is gay or (Who knows) even care?
I didn’t know and I don’t give a hoot.

“In what manner did Sally Ride “define” herself by her sexuality? In fact she expressly preferred to keep it private.”

You and your fellow travelers seem to think it is important and drag it up.
She was mentioned because of her accomplishments as an astronaut, not because she was gay.
You think it is important to mention she was gay.

“But the fact remains that she was gay and it appears rather shallow to celebrate the life of someone whilst also denouncing a major part of their life as inferior and 2nd class.”

Right.
So if we don’t fully embrace the whole gay agenda we are denouncing them as inferior and 2nd class.
So I can’t compliment her on her achievements as an astronaut unless I agree to everything on the gay agenda.
I can’t enjoy the music of Elton John unless I agree to everything on the gay agenda.
I can’t admire the work of Alan Turing unless I agree to everything on the gay agenda.
You realy need to grow up.
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July 25, 2012 11:13am
F E Smith

Weihana,

firstly, was she gay or bisexual? I would tend to argue the latter.

But, and more importantly, one can celebrate a person’s achievements and still disagree or disapprove of parts of their lifestyle/politics/choices. I am a huge fan of Sir Winston Churchill (the second, more famous, one), but I think that his decisions re Ireland prior to the Treaty. To use one of your examples, what is the problem with the Pope mourning the passing of Christopher Hitchens? The man was a fine writer, a keen observer and, apparently, a wonderful person.

So I don’t accept the premise that you advance. As for Luke Mutton, well, the point of view that he quotes is just puerile, but nothing new when it comes to the left wing, especially in the USA.
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July 25, 2012 11:14am
hmmokrightitis

Thank you Weihana, my coffee deprived brain didnt allow me to string a meaningful sentence together, and that combined with jet lag (damn 12 hour flights hit you as you get older) meant I couldnt express it anywhere near as well as you have.

Sally Ride kept her sexuality very much to herself, until after her death, and good for her, it wasnt part of her agenda. It is part of Mitt’s, and he is a hypocrite for his pandering.
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July 25, 2012 11:14am
Other_Andy

@hmmokrightitis

“It is part of Mitt’s, and he is a hypocrite for his pandering.”

Today, America lost one of its greatest pioneers. The first American woman in space, Sally Ride inspired millions of Americans with her determination to break the mold of her time. She was a profile in courage, and while she will be missed, her accomplishments will never be forgotten.

Honestly hmmokrightitis, you must be really (And I mean REALLY) twisting it to call this pandering or call him a hypocrite for saying this.
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July 25, 2012 11:29am
Weihana

Other Andy,

Did it cross your mind that Romney might not even know she is gay or (Who knows) even care?

Whether he knows or cares in this particular instance is irrelevant, the policies he supports and the crowd he panders to remain as they are.

You and your fellow travelers seem to think it is important and drag it up.
She was mentioned because of her accomplishments as an astronaut, not because she was gay.
You think it is important to mention she was gay.

I consider someone’s sexuality important to that individual. I’m quite certain that Sally Ride’s partner of 27 years was a very important part of her life and for a politician to advance a policy which denigrates their relationship as inferior and 2nd class is offensive.

So if we don’t fully embrace the whole gay agenda we are denouncing them as inferior and 2nd class.
So I can’t compliment her on her achievements as an astronaut unless I agree to everything on the gay agenda.
I can’t enjoy the music of Elton John unless I agree to everything on the gay agenda.
I can’t admire the work of Alan Turing unless I agree to everything on the gay agenda.

“Gay agenda” is merely a euphemism to justify anti-homosexual discrimination and bigotry. The “gay agenda” is simply to be treated as equals and to advance some understanding and compassion for their situation. That people like yourself talk about a “gay agenda” suggests that they are somehow trying to impose something upon you. The usual accusations being that they want to molest your kids or turn your children gay. This is the stigma that gays live with and which promotes intolerance and discrimination.

You can enjoy Elton John all you like. You can celebrate Sally Ride all you like. No one ever said you couldn’t or that Romney couldn’t say whatever he likes. All I said was that it appears hollow to celebrate someone whilst also denigrating an important part of their life.
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July 25, 2012 12:06pm
redeye

No, it smacks of the GOP having to rummage around in the very bottom of the apple barrel to find a Presidential candidate.

+1
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July 25, 2012 12:17pm
kowtow

Monsters in clerical garb.The ugly past cannot be undone but hopefully this sends a powerful message to those in authority who fail to protect the innocent and vulnerable.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/catholic-monsignor-monster-jailed-for-cover-up/story-fnd134gw-1226434394675
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July 25, 2012 12:18pm
Weihana

F E Smith,

But, and more importantly, one can celebrate a person’s achievements and still disagree or disapprove of parts of their lifestyle/politics/choices.

True. But when one advances a political agenda that seeks to marginalize a class of people as second class citizens, and inferior to their heterosexual counterparts, then to celebrate a person of that class appears more akin to celebrating a prize animal rather than celebrating an equal.

It’s condescending. On the one hand he views himself as superior but on the other hand he is willing to lower himself and recognize the accomplishments of his inferior.
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July 25, 2012 12:19pm
Weihana

Other_Andy (1,913) Says:
July 25th, 2012 at 11:29 am

@hmmokrightitis

“It is part of Mitt’s, and he is a hypocrite for his pandering.”

Today, America lost one of its greatest pioneers. The first American woman in space, Sally Ride inspired millions of Americans with her determination to break the mold of her time. She was a profile in courage, and while she will be missed, her accomplishments will never be forgotten.

Yet regardless of her accomplishments she was still inferior and should not have been allowed to marry her partner of 27 years. That is the unwritten subtext which undermines the sentiment those words intended.
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July 25, 2012 12:23pm
Other_Andy

@Weihana

I have reservations about ‘gay marriage’ and the adoption of children by ‘gay couples’. By your definition that makes me a anti-homosexual and bigot. To be honest, I couldn’t care less as I think this accusation says more about the accuser than me.

Are you gay weihana?

If so, by your reasoning I would also be a hypocrite if I agree with some of your points of view without embracing and agreeing with whatever gays want (I call that the ‘gay agenda’, your eplanation of that term is just that, your explanation).
So am I a hypocrite and ‘hollow’ if I agree with some of your points of view?
Maybe we should all declare our sexual preferences before commenting here to avoid being declared ‘hollow’ and a hypocrite.
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July 25, 2012 12:28pm
Other_Andy

@weihana

“Yet regardless of her accomplishments she was still inferior and should not have been allowed to marry her partner of 27 years.”

Who says she was inferior?
Just because a woman living with a woman can’t call herself married?

“That is the unwritten subtext which undermines the sentiment those words intended.”

Wrong.
That is the unwritten subtext YOU think undermines those words intended.
Unless you know what Romney intended.
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July 25, 2012 12:36pm
krazykiwi

That is the unwritten subtext which undermines the sentiment those words intended.

As a train enthusiast, the unwritten subtext that she appears to have prefered rockets to trains is deeply offensive. And there was no mention of her favouring plum jam over apricot jam. The plum jam lobbyist will be outraged.
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July 25, 2012 12:39pm
Weihana

Other_Andy (1,914) Says:
July 25th, 2012 at 12:28 pm

@Weihana

I have reservations about ‘gay marriage’ and the adoption of children by ‘gay couples’. By your definition that makes me a anti-homosexual and bigot. To be honest, I couldn’t care less as I think this accusation says more about the accuser than me.

Yeah and I have “reservations” about white girls marrying black men and black men raising children. Just look at the statistics. They are clearly more likely to be criminals. But hey, I’m no bigot. 😉

Are you gay weihana?

If so, by your reasoning I would also be a hypocrite if I agree with some of your points of view without embracing and agreeing with whatever gays want (I call that the ‘gay agenda’, your eplanation of that term is just that, your explanation).
So am I a hypocrite and ‘hollow’ if I agree with some of your points of view?
Maybe we should all declare our sexual preferences before commenting here to avoid being declared ‘hollow’ and a hypocrite.

There is a significant difference between agreeing or disagreeing with what someone says and offering a celebratory speech of someone’s life.
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July 25, 2012 12:39pm
Weihana

Other_Andy (1,915) Says:
July 25th, 2012 at 12:36 pm

@weihana

“Yet regardless of her accomplishments she was still inferior and should not have been allowed to marry her partner of 27 years.”

Who says she was inferior?
Just because a woman living with a woman can’t call herself married?

Yes, to say heterosexual couples can marry but homosexual couples cannot implies that the latter are inferior.
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July 25, 2012 12:41pm
Weihana

krazykiwi (8,152) Says:
July 25th, 2012 at 12:39 pm

That is the unwritten subtext which undermines the sentiment those words intended.

As a train enthusiast, the unwritten subtext that she appears to have prefered rockets to trains is deeply offensive. And there was no mention of her favouring plum jam over apricot jam. The plum jam lobbyist will be outraged.

Romney’s preference for women is not in issue: it is his regard for homosexuals as an inferior class of people as implied by his discriminatory stance with regards to marriage.
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July 25, 2012 12:44pm
Scott Chris

Weihana I think you might be being a little hard on Romney here. Had he said nothing he would have received just as much criticism if not more. Damned if he did, damned if he didn’t.

Non issue imo.
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July 25, 2012 12:52pm
Andrei

Monsters in clerical garb.The ugly past cannot be undone but hopefully this sends a powerful message to those in authority who fail to protect the innocent and vulnerable.

Under the standards that have seen this man imprisoned for six years the entire senior management of CYFS would be in prison for life.

This was a political show trial a la the Soviet Union in its darkest days
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July 25, 2012 12:55pm
F E Smith

Weihana,

But when one advances a political agenda that seeks to marginalize a class of people as second class citizens

Going by your logic, we all marginalise someone as being a second class citizen. Do you support polygamous marriage? Or incest between consenting adults? Or, to be extreme, paedophilia? It is your choice of words that is wrong here. People who oppose gay marriage, or homosexuality in general, are not marginalising anyone as second class citizens. Instead they are making a subjective moral judgment, which is something that they are entitled to do.

and inferior to their heterosexual counterparts

As I understand it, the objection is not based on someone being inferior. No denial of humanity or personhood is implied in the objections that I read. Instead, a moral judgment is being made, one that says that the person is doing wrong in a moral sense. You can agree or disagree with that judgment, but there is nothing objective to say that their opinion is any less valid than yours. So you are being unfair to those who disagree with you by using the word ‘inferior’, which is not something that I have seen used to describe any homosexual.

then to celebrate a person of that class appears more akin to celebrating a prize animal rather than celebrating an equal.

And that is just stupid. Sally Ride was a person, was an astronaut, was an accomplished scientist. All those things are worth celebrating and her sexuality has no influence on that.

It’s condescending.

Actually, you are the one being condescending. You are putting words/thoughts in the mouths/minds of others and then criticising them for the words you have chosen to use. I can condemn someone for committing a violent assault, but that does not mean I see them as being inferior, nor as a second class citizen. I am making a moral judgment, whether right or wrong, on what they did when they committed that assault, but I am not denigrating the humanity of the person.

People who oppose homosexuality on moral grounds are doing the same thing. You and I may not agree with them, but they are in no way marginalising them. At least no more than I marginalise paedophiles.
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July 25, 2012 12:56pm
KevinH

@hj
Dr Rata’s analysis and interpretation of biculturalism within New Zealand as a return to neo -tribalism is fundamentally flawed because her assumption that democracy overcomes the tyranny of traditional oppressive regimes is incorrect. Democracy delivers for the majority culture and underdelivers for minorities.
The Encyclopedia of New Zealand:

From bicultural to monocultural
Before the Treaty of Waitangi was signed in 1840, Māori and British settlers lived within their own cultures. Pākehā–Māori (Pākehā who lived in Māori communities) were among the first bicultural people, who were comfortable in both groups.

After the treaty was signed, the settler population grew to outnumber Māori. British traditions and culture became dominant, and Māori were expected to adopt Pākehā culture.

Māori renaissance
From the 1970s a renaissance of Māori culture began, and Māori protested about issues such as land loss and breaches of the treaty. In 1975 the government set up the Waitangi Tribunal to investigate contemporary breaches, and from 1985 the tribunal could consider historic claims going back to 1840.

State-sector biculturalism
In the 1980s the government began to describe the treaty as New Zealand’s founding document. Government agencies began to recognise the languages, cultures and traditions of both Pākehā and Māori, and some government reports advocated biculturalism. In 2011 most government agencies had Māori as well as English names, and traditional Māori welcome and farewell ceremonies were often performed at official functions.

Debates
The idea of biculturalism is debated. Some people think New Zealand should be a multicultural society that officially recognises the cultures of many different peoples, not just of Māori and Pākehā. Others think that biculturalism doesn’t go far enough in supporting Māori culture and self-determination. They argue for separate Māori institutions, such as a Māori justice system or a separate Māori House of Representatives in Parliament.
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July 25, 2012 1:07pm
Manolo

Sweet life in Colombia? http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8504771/colombia-senator-jailed-money-laundering
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July 25, 2012 1:24pm
Weihana

F E Smith (1,954) Says:
July 25th, 2012 at 12:56 pm

Going by your logic, we all marginalise someone as being a second class citizen. Do you support polygamous marriage? Or incest between consenting adults? Or, to be extreme, paedophilia?

A relationship between an adult and a child is indeed inferior to that between consenting adults.

People who oppose gay marriage, or homosexuality in general, are not marginalising anyone as second class citizens. Instead they are making a subjective moral judgment, which is something that they are entitled to do.

That they are making a subjective moral judgment, and acting within their rights in doing so, does not negate the reality of what they propose. Opposing gay marriage does discriminate against and marginalize gays and unjustly so in my view.

As I understand it, the objection is not based on someone being inferior. No denial of humanity or personhood is implied in the objections that I read. Instead, a moral judgment is being made, one that says that the person is doing wrong in a moral sense.

So you would advance the proposition that “wrong in a moral sense” is not inferior to “right in a moral sense”? So morality is not superior to immorality? What are you, a moral relativist? 😉

“inferior” is defined as
“not good, or not as good as someone or something else”

Clearly it is logical to conclude that viewing something as “wrong in a moral sense” implies that the thing in question is “inferior” to that which is not wrong in a moral sense.

You can agree or disagree with that judgment, but there is nothing objective to say that their opinion is any less valid than yours.

I disagree but I don’t think that’s particularly relevant here.

So you are being unfair to those who disagree with you by using the word ‘inferior’, which is not something that I have seen used to describe any homosexual.

People always choose words best suited to advance their point of view. But I believe logically that the implication is there regardless of whether they choose to use that word or not.

And that is just stupid. Sally Ride was a person, was an astronaut, was an accomplished scientist. All those things are worth celebrating and her sexuality has no influence on that.

Agreed, and I’m sure Romney sincerely celebrates that. But it does not diminish how he regards gays in general and the contrast between his celebration of Sally Ride and how he regards homosexuality in general is a valid criticism in my view.
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July 25, 2012 1:36pm
Other_Andy

@Weihana

“Yes, to say heterosexual couples can marry but homosexual couples cannot implies that the latter are inferior.”

I like the way you phrase that.
Heterosexual couples can’t marry per se.
They can marry as long as they are a man and a woman.
Homosexuals can also marry.
They can marry as long as they are a man and a woman.

It only implies there is a ‘difference’ weihana.
You want to call it inferior, be my guest.
Again, it is YOU implying and interpreting things.
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July 25, 2012 1:42pm
wikiriwhis business

UN agenda 21

agenda 21, global government, land grab, private property, sustainable developement, UN, United Nations

http://www.brasschecktv.com/videos/the-secret-government-1/agenda-21-for-dummies-.html

Alabama banned it. The Republican National Committee (RNC) officially opposes it. Even a group of Democrats has now joined the fight. And the movement to stop it is growing stronger every single day. Twenty years after the United Nations birthed the global “sustainable development” scheme known as Agenda 21, its tentacles have stretched across America into every level of government. But the battle to stop it is in full swing.
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July 25, 2012 1:43pm
Weihana

Scott Chris (4,449) Says:
July 25th, 2012 at 12:52 pm

Weihana I think you might be being a little hard on Romney here. Had he said nothing he would have received just as much criticism if not more. Damned if he did, damned if he didn’t.

Non issue imo.

Indeed, he is a candidate for public office, he is obliged to say something. I believe his remarks were sincere but I also think it is fair to consider the juxtaposition of those remarks with his regard for gay rights in his political campaign.

Instead of choosing whether to celebrate her life or not, he could simply regard gays as true equals to the rest of us. Of course then he really would be damned. 🙂
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July 25, 2012 1:47pm
Weihana

Other_Andy (1,916) Says:
July 25th, 2012 at 1:42 pm

@Weihana

“Yes, to say heterosexual couples can marry but homosexual couples cannot implies that the latter are inferior.”

I like the way you phrase that.
Heterosexual couples can’t marry per se.
They can marry as long as they are a man and a woman.
Homosexuals can also marry.
They can marry as long as they are a man and a woman.

It only implies there is a ‘difference’ weihana.
You want to call it inferior, be my guest.
Again, it is YOU implying and interpreting things.

“different but equal”… sounds similar to some other by-gone slogan. 🙂
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July 25, 2012 2:00pm
Weihana

Other_Andy (1,916) Says:
July 25th, 2012 at 1:42 pm

Again, it is YOU implying and interpreting things.

One more point before I go… You are implying, I am inferring. 🙂
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July 25, 2012 2:10pm
joana

good post Andrei.
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July 25, 2012 2:14pm
Mark

Just a question – Is John Banks still attending parliament – seems to have vanished from the planet
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July 25, 2012 2:30pm
thedavincimode

Under the standards that have seen this man imprisoned for six years the entire senior management of CYFS would be in prison for life.

Good heavens. I agree with Andrei. 😯
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July 25, 2012 2:30pm
thedavincimode

Mark

Maybe he’s gone back to talkback radio like he did years ago before retiring from parliament.
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July 25, 2012 2:32pm
RKBee

Interesting letter to the editor Taranaki Daily News today.

There has never been a successful socialist state.

The move from tribalism to civilisation came about by the human concepts of individualism and property rights.

Individualism means that you do not belong to the tribe or collective. From this we derived the right to life and that the use of force to get what you want is immoral.

Property rights mean what you produce belongs to you, therefore theft is immoral.

We will never have a just or civilised society run by force and theft, which is the only way any form of collectivism, whether it’s tribalism, socialism or fascism, can work.

Government produces no wealth; every bit of money the Government spends is taken from productive people.

Everything we have has been invented and brought into production by the people. Our economic problems are caused by big Government consuming evermore of our wealth and by the fact most governments have spent more dollars than they have been able to take in and therefore have had to borrow and inflate, until after 70 years of doing this, we arrive at the present inevitable stage we are witnessing of Western economic collapse.

Our own National government, which according to its own internet site believes in limited government, continues to borrow $300 million a week to fund the biggest government dollar spend ever and which grows under every budget, despite the rhetoric.

This is unsustainable as we can see by the socialist, welfare states going bankrupt from America to most of Europe. Our recession started in January 2007, 18 months before America and Europe, so we cannot blame anyone else.

MIKE WEBBER

Inglewood
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July 25, 2012 2:42pm
mikenmild

DVM
Wasn’t Msgr Lynn jailed for covering up abuse? How is that wrong?
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July 25, 2012 2:51pm
Manolo

Secrets? What secrets? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10822067
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July 25, 2012 2:59pm
Jinky

MPs debate their own pay behind closed doors
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7345081/MPs-to-discuss-pay-in-secret
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July 25, 2012 3:01pm
Colville

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/7346548/Super-yacht-detained-in-Vanuatu

Is DPF on a liasion in Vanawatu?
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July 25, 2012 3:05pm
Manolo

RKBee @ 2.42pm
Mr Webber, the letter-writer, deserves to be commended.
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July 25, 2012 3:50pm
Weihana

RKBee,

There has never been a successful socialist state.

Except that by your definition all modern western societies are “socialist” because they tax (i.e. steal according to your definition), and if these societies are not successful then no society is successful. Or you have a twisted definition of success which ignores wealth, technology and the welfare of their populations. Given that the vast majority of wealth in the world has been created in the last 30 years, then arguably our current civilization is the most successful ever.

Government produces no wealth; every bit of money the Government spends is taken from productive people.

Except that wealth can only be effectively produced in an environment where laws are upheld and contracts enforced. Government provides this, ergo wealth cannot be produced without government which suggests that the relationship between government and private markets is a symbiotic relationship rather than a relationship where one is solely dependent upon the other.

Moreover, regardless of the fact that government expropriates its finance through force, it nevertheless has the potential to reinvest that capital into public enterprises. If that investment creates value above and beyond the initial investment then it has produced wealth. For instance, the United States government invested money in creating the internet the infrastructure for which was subsequently taken over by private enterprise. It seems absurd, in that context, to suggest that government has played no part in creating the wealth that the internet represents.

Our own National government, which according to its own internet site believes in limited government, continues to borrow $300 million a week to fund the biggest government dollar spend ever and which grows under every budget, despite the rhetoric.

But surely the fact that the government can spend money irresponsibly is not a valid argument that government is inherently bad for the economy. The fact that there is waste suggests to me that such waste should be addressed, not that we should take an ideological approach to property rights which says that government is evil and produces nothing of value.
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July 25, 2012 4:24pm
KH

Peter Sharples is saying today that we should not focus on who killed the Kahui Twins. The coroner is saying Chris Kahui did. But the Kahui twins had rights. Is Mr Sharples saying that needs to be different?
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July 25, 2012 5:17pm
chiz

Iran’s nuclear facilities may have been hit by another malware attack.
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July 25, 2012 5:26pm
Steve (North Shore)

Holidays (Full Recognition of Waitangi Day and Anzac Day) Amendment Bill.

Saw Flavell raving on in some stoneage language that everyone understood of course. Seeemed to be ‘Treaty” this and ‘Treaty’ that.

Not any mention of ANZAC Day. Is this Bill going to be renamed ‘Full Recognition of Waitangi Day Ammendment Bill’?
If not, why not? ANZAC Day seems irrelevant according to some
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July 25, 2012 5:45pm
thedavincimode

milky

It isn’t. I took the comment as a criticism of the Amway cloned cheerleaders at CYFS who have sat on their hands for years while babies and toddlers get put through the rinse cycle and hung on the washing line, or play football – as the football. Finally though, it appears that there is a politically-driven initiative to make CYFS and other relevant agencies deliver their deliverables in an integrated and co-ordinated manner. This is no mean challenge, but over time will hopefully result in less items on the clothesline that aren’t actually washing in the conventional sense of that word.

It is absolutely disgraceful that this appears to have been a political intervention, rather than a change lobbied for by social agencies themselves; CYFS at the fore. For that, the deadbeat pencil-pushing, paper-shuffling, excuse-making and otherwise unemployable [derisory snort font] “senior management” at CYFS should be made to walk the plank – or, as I interpreted Andrei’s comments – be put away for life. Clerks elevated beyond their capabilities – like that stupid woman with the big earings and the big tits that that twit (Mark?) Prebble couldn’t stop looking at.

A simple business process intervention that clowns with healthy 6 figure salaries couldn’t come up with or simply didn’t want to.
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July 25, 2012 6:09pm
Manolo

The Kahui guy is non-guilty in the eyes of the exculpatory Pita “I want the baubles of office” Sharples.
Disgraceful cover-up along racial lines
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July 25, 2012 6:11pm
F E Smith

Weihana,

I still disagree with your use of the word ‘inferior’ to describe Romney’s supposed position on homosexuality. While you might be intending the definition of ‘not good’, most people tend to use the term to mean ‘not as good’. Indeed, your use of the term ‘second class citizens’ would suggest that you might be trying to use both forms. However, either way you use it you are wrong.

I don’t say that someone who has been convicted of a violent assault is inferior. I say that they have done wrong in a moral sense. That in no way alters their status as a human being. In the same way, a person of Romney’s religion will say that a person who commits homosexual acts does wrong. That is not calling the person inferior, and you (intentionally, I believe) cast a slur upon people like Romney by using that term to incorrectly describe their views.
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July 25, 2012 6:34pm
Reid

Hey guess what. The first US woman in space was also the first US lesbian in space, at least.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2177968/Sally-Ride-Americas-woman-space-dies-61.html

Isn’t that nice.

I bet Hulun knew all the time and the secret museum of sisterhood heroes (not a typo) has always had a special (wink) space for Sally, ever since the 80’s when it was first setup.
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July 25, 2012 6:40pm
mikenmild

DVM
‘appears that there is a politically-driven initiative to make CYFS and other relevant agencies deliver their deliverables in an integrated and co-ordinated manner.’
Really? I’ll believe it when I see it.
There were two objectionable things about Andrei’s post. First, it could be taken as a defence of the evil priest. Secondly, who is he calling to account here? I should think he would need to name some individuals who he thins share a similar level of criminal responsibility for their actions.
Personally, I think he was just deflecting from the great Catholic cover ups.
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July 25, 2012 6:46pm
Griff

Sharpels is merely affirming part of the ancient Maori culture
In the old days killing babies was all good so long as you were not killing your own
In fact they use to eat babies so no waste and in touch with nature like all noble stone age peoples
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July 25, 2012 6:49pm
Manolo

On many a conversation when someone has said that child abuse is a NZ problem, I have corrected the person by saying: “No, it’s mainly a Maori problem. You cannot blame the rest of us for this atrocity.“
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July 25, 2012 7:03pm
Fletch

FFS – I am sick of all the progressives on this forum attacking someone for something he didn’t say. It’s pathetic. You’re the ones who bring up the gay topic at all, just to hit people over the head with it. GROW UP.

If you must attack someone, attack Obama. He’s the biggest hypocrite out. Unless you believe in changing your mind being called “evolving”. And he’s only “evolving” to get the gay vote.
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July 25, 2012 7:06pm
kowtow

How could commemorating a terrorist outrage upset Arabs and Muslims?
The west is constantly apologising for all all sorts of wrongs ,real and imagined.But the IOC refuse to properly acknowledge the murder of Olympians in an Olympic village because they don’t want to upset people who weren’t involved,how strange.

http://www.inquisitr.com/282672/olympic-officials-refuse-to-honor-memory-of-israeli-athletes-murdered-in-munich/
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July 25, 2012 7:14pm
Reid

the IOC refuse to properly acknowledge the murder of Olympians in an Olympic village because they

can’t be arsed kowtowing to yet more faux Iswaeli outwage which gets fucking tiresome after the eleventy millionth time kowtow even you, must admit. And good on the IOC for not doing so too, FFS.

Babies.

How come the deaths of all those palestinians doesn’t seem to matter quite so much to those Israeli people? What? The palestinians aren’t quite as human as Israeli’s are? Is that it? Are the palestinian’s sub-human? They’re unter-menschen then? Is that it? I just wish the Israeli’s would explain their complicated value system to the rest of the world, that’s all. It certainly seems prima facie inconsistent, on the most superficial, elementary reading of it, that’s for sure. The way they go on and on and on and on about it, you’d think the only people who matter in the world are the Jews and the holocaust. What about all the other people besides Jews who were killed in the holocaust. Don’t they matter? What about people who’ve been killed by Jews outside of the holocaust? Don’t they matter either?
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July 25, 2012 7:21pm
kowtow

weid,that’s silly.IOC should acknowledge formally, an outrage against,not just the Israeli team,but the whole Olympic movement.

Where has anyone suggested the Arabs of Palestine are “untermenschen”.?

“The way they go on about it”…..wow I’d say they have more than a small interest in the matter. Your use of the word untermenschen and an apparent belittling of the genocide perpetrated by the Nazis is a tad troubling.
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July 25, 2012 7:46pm
Griff

Reid
How many can name the other groups destined for the final solution under the third riech?
The way history is written its almost that the jews won
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July 25, 2012 7:53pm
nasska

Cindy strode angrily up to the customer services counter of the
supermarket, slapped a package on the counter, and loudly expressed
her dissatisfaction.

The supervisor asked, “What was the problem? Didn’t your cat
like them?”

Cindy’s eyes got very large, and she whispered,
“Do you mean to tell me that Pussy Treats are meant
for cats?”
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July 25, 2012 8:00pm
nasska

When it comes to anything to do with Israel, regrettably something goes bing instead of bong in Reid’s head. The fact that a small besieged democracy representing 2% of the region’s population dares to campaign for its survival doesn’t seem to fit in with his idea of how the globe should look.

It’s only a small chink in an otherwise intelligent viewpoint but there we have it.
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July 25, 2012 8:06pm
Reid

How many can name the other groups destined for the final solution under the third riech?

Just because history is written by the victors Griff doesn’t mean it has to be read by morons.

Normally morons [naturally] only bother to acquaint themselves with the easy parts.

Look Timmy, there’s another moron. Aren’t they mental.

I don’t know what the answer is Griff, I truly don’t. God does, but I sure don’t.

It’s only a small chink in an otherwise intelligent viewpoint but there we have it.

It’s a shame the rest of you can’t see that Israel could still be secure and not act like an A-grade arsehole, given she has nukes and biologicals and USA as a backstop. How many other nations have that?
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July 25, 2012 8:13pm
nasska

Reid

If I was a citizen of Israel, or even a visitor, I would look at the hatred that surrounds the borders & rapidly become fully paranoid rather than security conscious.

Regardless of Israel’s nuclear capabilities & a wishy washy American president who can’t quite make up his mind whether he is an ally or not, the sheer weight of numbers of the belligerent koran bashers within close proximity is frightening. Egypt 84 mill, Iran 76 mill, Syria 21 mill, Jordan 6.5mill & the lovely peace loving (ha) Palestinians 4.5mill vs 8 million Israelis.

Don’t forget that the majority of these have openly called for the overthrow of the Jews. To me the Israelis well & truly qualify for underdog status & the help & backing of free people.
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July 25, 2012 8:29pm
wiseowl

For those with Sky you can get olympics on channel 134,135,soon and 139 now.
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July 25, 2012 8:53pm
East Wellington Superhero

@ nasska

Exactly.
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July 25, 2012 9:08pm
kowtow

An interesting view of history expounded by griff.

People are ignorant of other groups of victims so it’s the Jews fault!

I wonder if he has a duelling scar,brown shirt and long black boots?

Scary.
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July 25, 2012 9:42pm
hj

KevinH (770) Says:
July 25th, 2012 at 1:07 pm
@hj
Dr Rata’s analysis and interpretation of biculturalism within New Zealand as a return to neo -tribalism is fundamentally flawed because her assumption that democracy overcomes the tyranny of traditional oppressive regimes is incorrect. Democracy delivers for the majority culture and underdelivers for minorities.
…………….
So you are saying that a culture has rights as in one culture one vote? The overall support for the Maori Party and Mana is very small. If Maori vote Labour is that democracy “undelivering for minorites”?
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July 25, 2012 9:49pm
F E Smith

reid,

the IOC had a minutes silence in memory of the victims of September 11 at the following Olympic Games, so why shouldn’t they have a minutes silence in memory of Olympic athletes murdered at the Olympic Games?

If anything, surely the mass murder of Olympic Athletes at an Olympic Games, regardless of their State of nationality, is something that the Olympics should commemorate? This year is 40 years since the event, and in the 50th year there will not be a summer Olympics.

I think the reasons for your opinion are very poor.
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July 25, 2012 9:57pm
hj

Kevin H:
“From bicultural to monocultural
Before the Treaty of Waitangi was signed in 1840, Māori and British settlers lived within their own cultures. Pākehā–Māori (Pākehā who lived in Māori communities) were among the first bicultural people, who were comfortable in both groups.

After the treaty was signed, the settler population grew to outnumber Māori. British traditions and culture became dominant, and Māori were expected to adopt Pākehā culture.”
……..
We’ll when the population increases dramatically and agriculture takes over it isn’t practical to be a hunter gatherer and when you learn it is a lie to claim a world view based on a time when you were isolated and ignorant.
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July 25, 2012 10:02pm
TimG_Oz

FE Smith … couldn’t have said it better myself.

I was very glad that the Australian government (bipartisan) have lobbied and held a minutes silence for the murdered athletes. I doubt it rated a mention in NZ.
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July 25, 2012 10:54pm
thedavincimode

Really? I’ll believe it when I see it.

milkymug

Cynicism is a healthy thing used wisely. But in my experience, when it represents a person’s default position it has always been a reliable indicator that the individual concerned has no practical grasp of how to resolve issues or produce even modestly innovative solutions that rely on organisational process, and co-operation between, and commitment by, the people in an organisation. In fact, the default position cynic is problematic in any organisation because organisations rely upon process, co-operation and commitment in order to achieve their organisational objectives. Not only do they make no positive contribution, such people have a very negative effect upon the people around them and are best weeded out. When the organisation sets out to achieve an objective, the default cynic sneers that it can’t be done, or it will take too long, and generally derides the effort and commitment of those around him (yes, they tend to be males). I expect that this behaviour is some sort of compensating mechanism.

I don’t think that it takes any business experience at all to appreciate and acknowledge that even a modest degree of integration of services delivery between gummint agencies (and I include health and education) would go some way towards not only achieving better value for the taxpayer dollar, but also avoid the appalling clangers that get the headlines or generally just piss off people who work for a living.

I will believe it when I see it too, but one of the differences between you and me is that I don’t have so little faith in human nature that I don’t believe that this initiative can’t be productive with the right people and the right skills. There will no doubt need to be some knocking of heads together and the present state of affairs (if indeed it is a political initiative) suggests that the right people to effect this change won’t presently be employed in the departments concerned. It represents the most fundamental business model. Sales and marketing does not exist independently of production and finance. The fact that it won’t happen overnight, or that there will still be clangers and assorted malaise doesn’t mean it isn’t worth doing if it produces a better result all around. Unless of course, one happens to be a default cynic.

As to Andrei’s comment, no doubt it reflected his sensitivity to this rather public embarassment for the left footers, but I was more interested in the point reflected in my response. It is outrageous that these senior functionaries on a whack comparable and even higher than those in the private sector have not initiated such a fundamental commonsense change years ago. The outcomes that we see in the headlines and the gripes repeated ad nauseum on this blog are a direct reflection of that inaction.

Your less flattering interpretation of his comment might well be right, but I suggest you read your post again because you were starting to sound like the catholic defence brigade.
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July 26, 2012 5:51am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Congrats to Kim Jong Un and his recent marrage. A joyous time for the happy couple.
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July 26, 2012 7:06am
mikenmild

DVM
Well they say that a cynic is just what an optimist calls a realist.

I am very sceptical that any rearrangement of institutional arrangements to make agencies better coordinated, take a holistic approach, work in concert or whatever term we call it today, will result in better outcomes. The idea that children’s welfare can be significantly improved by adjusting the behaviour of a handful of officials without addressing the core problems that underlie welfare dependency and abuse is, quite simply, ludicrous.

And far from defending anything, I merely repeat that where individuals are at a similar level of fault as Msgr Lynn they should be brought to account. Surely, after 30 odds years of reforms aimed at improving ‘accountability’ in our public sector, any individuals should be easy to identify and prosecute.
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July 26, 2012 7:33am
thedavincimode

milky

Businesses can’t survive by adopting silo organisational structures in order to deliver outputs that are a product of mulit-discipline/functional inputs. I simply don’t accept that a silo approach to optimal social outputs can do that given the greater scale and complexity of the underlying issues. For example, that would treat the police as the solution to crime when in reality, they are the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.

At it most simple level, it’s just a case of the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing, and acknowledging the need for multi-discipline inputs. At that point the issue becomes more concerned with co-ordinating those inputs and making somebody accountable for the outcomes. This is just common sense. It requires identification (obviously) of strategies, and then key functional activities and roles in order to leverage quality decision-making throughout what is, of necessity, a large organisational structure.

The responsibility for achieving this isn’t with some functionary level idiot who is found to have dropped the ball resulting in some toddler going through the spin cycle. It is at the CEO level of every government department that has relevance to whatever the clanger of the moment happens to be. Those are the names you’re after. There are times that a CEO has to just roll up the sleeves and get down and dirty; walk downstairs and actually find out what the fuck is going on, and then shake things up. There is no evidence of this ever happening in our public service. If it is self evident to the public at large that witness these clangers and malaise issues, it ought to be transparently obvious to a departmental head. It isn’t just misuse of washing machines either. Look at what was happening with that clown in corrections, and with ACC, the police – serial fuckups. I pin that right on the lapels on the idiots in charge.

You are sceptical about this type of approach. I’m sceptical about the quality of the people who head these departments because for whatever reason – gross stupidity, self interest or just straight out incompetence, there has been very little in the way of visible effort to integrate service deliveries and this has undoubtedly cost lives and it has resulted permament physical and emotional harm. I should throw in the head public service paymaster and disciplinarian to that mix because it should also have been self-evident to him that heads needed to be knocked together. Those people are vicariously liable in the same way the the catholic cover up merchants are.
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July 26, 2012 8:52am

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