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July 1, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 1 July 2012

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General Debate

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philu

“..And ure thinks this interviewer is too soft?..”

you really have basic comprehension issues there…don’t you twitchy-jim/reid…?

..where did i say that…?

..the whole tone/timbre of what i said about that dann interview is that he stepped up to the plate..

..which orifice did you pluck that bullshit claim from..?

phillip ure whoar.co.nz
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July 1, 2012 6:54pm
Steve (North Shore)

Phool forgot to but his recycle shit out.
Neighbour says:
‘Where’s ya bin?’
‘Oh – iv bin in Australia’

‘No dopehead, where’s ya wheelie bin?’

‘Oh i’s realy bin in jail’ 🙁
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July 1, 2012 6:55pm
bhudson

..but don’t see the problems you do with his tvnz work

On Marae Invesitgates he let people answer the question. He came across as measured and well prepared. The interviews were worth watching – you could actually take something from them.

On Q&A he has ‘transformed’ into some wannabe bull terrier of an interviewer. There is nothing to be learned from the interview; it is merely him trying to prove that he can ask questions better than the target can answer them.
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July 1, 2012 6:56pm
philu

oh look..!..garrets’ other persona..steve..is here..

haven’t all of his aliases/personae been quiet today..?

..( a prior committment for garrett…as i understand it..)

phillip ure whoar.co.nz
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July 1, 2012 6:57pm
philu

no hudson..on marae taurima bored in..and would not let interviewees not answer questions…

..that is how he built his reputation…

..i only saw him blot his copybook once..

..in a butt-kissing interview he did of parata ..on tvnz..

..phillip ure whoar.co.nz
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July 1, 2012 7:00pm
Steve (North Shore)

The only ‘actor’ here is you Phool, and you are loving it – ripping of the TAXPAYER you fucking leech.
Keep acting, you are going to be famous or infamous soon.
DPF updated the demerits today – you are on 60, so it won’t be long smart arse
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July 1, 2012 7:02pm
OneTrack

bhudson – I never saw Shane Taurima on Marae but he is absolutely useless on The Nation. Screeching questions that are pretty hard to understand and he won’t let his interviewees get an answer out. He’s obviously been reading JournOlist 101 and he’s going to “Get the Big Scoop”, even if there isn’t one. It’s painful to watch and listen to. And usually I don’t – I change the channel.
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July 1, 2012 7:15pm
Lucia Maria

Viking,

Men who leave their wives because they find their inner “gay” are just another type of adulterer, in my opinion. The Sunday Star Times ran a feature on them last year or the year before, I think. I was horrified, reading the stories. It was almost like it was treated like a “get out of marriage free” card.
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July 1, 2012 7:19pm
mikenmild

I’m sure Lucia would be more approving if those guys just admitted they didn’t love their wives anymore instead of coming up with the lame “didn’t realise I was gay” thing.
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July 1, 2012 7:23pm
Lucia Maria

mikenmild,

No, I’d just tell them to man up. Love is not just* a feeling.

edited to add just
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July 1, 2012 7:25pm
philu

the simpsons is very funny..

..they are ‘doing’ religion…

(ned just had a nightmare of the future..todd graduates with a degree in comparative-religions…)

..heh..!

phillip ure whoar.co.nz
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July 1, 2012 7:50pm
nasska

Your favourite lady is about to go into PMS mode when she :-
Stops reading Cosmopolitan and starts reading Guns and Ammo.
Considers chocolate a major food group.
Puts on one of those pads with “wings,” then flies off the roof laughing hysterically while riding a broom.
Develops a new talent for spinning her head around in 360 degree circles.
Retains more water than Manapouri.
Buys you a new T-shirt — with a bulls-eye on the front.
Orders 3 Big Macs, 4 large fries, a bucket of Chicken McNuggets, and then mauls the manager because they’re out of Diet Coke.
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July 1, 2012 8:00pm
Viking2

Lucia, your predudices leave you blind.
Have you children?
If you do then Pray your little heart out one doesn’t turn up gay because then you will have to decide if you love your child enough to continue that relationship or cast them adrift without your love.
Oh you can be all bravado and bullshit now but when the time comes God and the Pope will be of no comfort to you.

your heart torn between love and dogma.
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July 1, 2012 8:04pm
Steve (North Shore)

See that Phool? joke start at 8 pm, not 7.50. Todd graduated but you didn’t – another lie.
BUT did you get your qualification using your ‘other’ Drivers License?
btw:
1. Where did you go for what shall henceforth be known among Kiwibloggers as “The Blessed Silence” – those two days when we were free from your inane gibberish?; and

2. What did happen to the Nippers mother ?
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July 1, 2012 8:08pm
big bruv

So I am watching a replay of this mornings Q&A. The Catholic wanker Alex Schadenberg who is against Marian Street’s death with dignity bill is really pissing me off.

I do wish those who believe in the sky fairy would keep their fucking noses out of our life’s.
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July 1, 2012 8:09pm
Fletch

bb, made you feel it, did he?

(Sorry, couldn’t resist a line from Casino Royale)
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July 1, 2012 8:17pm
Steve (North Shore)

Ms Street has of course made the decision to do this ending with dignity in her own case – yet to be decided.
Liabourites struggle to the end
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July 1, 2012 8:23pm
Harriet

“….Have you children?
If you do then Pray your little heart out one doesn’t turn up gay because then you will have to decide if you love your child enough to continue that relationship or cast them adrift without your love.
Oh you can be all bravado and bullshit now but when the time comes God and the Pope will be of no comfort to you….”

The vast majority of NZ kids are affirmed into their sexuality by their parents. Gay parents do this too.But moreso parents who have religious beliefs. To become gay is also due to the ignorance, or choice, of a parent.

It’s not bravado or bullshit. Just doing whats best.
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July 1, 2012 8:31pm
Steve (North Shore)

No answer from Phool – as usual, you will never get any answer from a drug fucked train wreck – never
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July 1, 2012 8:43pm
kowtow

……Catholic wanker….

bigot bruv has come out to play

V2 tried some Catholic baiting too.( I wonder if Kimfatcom is Catholic,a lot of Germans are them are )

A lot of todays GD was taken up with the great idea of not baiting a certain poster.

And yet the anti Catholics can’t help themselves . Fuck they’re boring.
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July 1, 2012 8:44pm
TimG_Oz

OK … I’ll admit it – I was wrong about the Carbon Tax and it’s effect on Global Warming.

Today: First day of Carbon Tax, and also coldest day in Melbourne for 15 years.

My concern now is that we have gone too far! If we don’t stop this Carbon Tax now, then we will start the next Ice age by the end of the year!
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July 1, 2012 8:56pm
big bruv

kowtow

I am the bigot?

Am I the one who tells people who to love and how to love?
Am I the one who labels couples seeking IVF treatment as “sick”?
Am I the one (when asked by the host of Q&A if I am against death with dignity because of a religious belief) who lied about my true motivation given that I am the leader of a Catholic pressure group?
Am I the one who tells us all that life begins at ejaculation?

No Kowtow, I am not the bigot.
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July 1, 2012 8:59pm
Harriet

“….So I am watching a replay of this mornings Q&A. The Catholic wanker Alex Schadenberg who is against Marian Street’s death with dignity bill is really pissing me off…”

Death with dignity ?

Where Marian Street and the rest of the government actually decides who dies and who doesn’t ?

Idiot. Doctors make mistakes about ‘life expectancy’ of ‘terminal patients’ every day, some even go into remission and go onto live for decades later.

But nearly all of those who are ‘definitly’ terminal are usually only told with less than 6-8 weeks to live anyway, and pallatative care can give them a reasonable standard of living right up to the last week of living.There’s just no point in speeding it up by 2 weeks or so.

Marian Street is about 2 decades late with this bill.

But wait, maybe she thinks it is not about life and death afterall – but rather – those who just don’t like living – tetraplegics for example.Well, as bad as living like that is, it’s not a life or death matter.

So what other matters is Marian Street going to introduce so that people can commit suicide – but arn’t life and death ?

Loneliness – Widows for example ?

Dispair – The retrenched, divorced, broke, homeless and now worthless middleage male ?

How about someone who has had all their children murdered – or just 1 of them – say an only child ?

Why can’t they not die – they are of just as sound a mind as a tetraplegic – if not moreso ?

See….The government deciding who gets to die is not dignified. Infact, it’s not a road to go down, the greens will only lower the bar at each election till it becomes a ‘right’ of some 16yld girl who has been dumped by just some ‘shithead teenager’.
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July 1, 2012 9:06pm
big bruv

It seems we have the religious right out in force tonight…

It is not the government who is deciding you idiot, the bill gives those who are suffering the right to choose.
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July 1, 2012 9:09pm
big bruv

The real Alex Schadenberg, the same one who said that he was not against the death with dignity bill because of any religious beliefs.

“Alex Schadenberg, the Executive Director of the Euthanasia Prevention Coalition, a Canadian Roman Catholic pressure group opposing assisted dying of any kind — holding even that the death of the brain-dead Terry Schaivo was murder! – and takes every possible opportunity to oppose the right to assistance in dying on the basis of Roman Catholic “pro-life” dogma (but what I choose to call the Roman Catholic death cult). He and his tiresome organisation intrudes in people’s lives even when such intervention is not only unwelcome but insulting and demeaning, and despite the fact that he has no special qualifications in bioethics, has managed to get his tendentious nonsense published in the National Post. In an article entitled “Legalizing euthanasia would leave the vulnerable unprotected,” he drags the old chestnut once again out of the fire, dusts off the burnt bits, and presents it as newly minted, hot-off-the-press, information that is vital for our society. I have (for the sake of full disclosure) a focused animus against this presumptuous and despicable man who speaks with such suffocating self-righteousness, for it was he who reported me to the police after I had returned from accompanying my wife Elizabeth to the Dignitas Clinic in Zürich, where she was helped to die before what she feared — being trapped in her body by MS — would prevent her from acting as she chose. It was a fate which, in her view, would have been far worse than death itself. It is people like Schadenberg who make sure that people like Elizabeth die before they really want to, for fear of being trapped and unable to receive the help in dying which they seek.”
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July 1, 2012 9:12pm
Harriet

“….It is not the government who is deciding you idiot, the bill gives those who are suffering the right to choose….”

What’s ‘suffering’ ?

Idiot – The government decides by setting ‘proceedures’ for doctors etc.
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July 1, 2012 9:23pm
big bruv

Harriet

So you are happy to see those who want to die with dignity suffer because of your religious beliefs?
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July 1, 2012 9:29pm
David Garrett

Righto…stories read, children tucked up…

I see there remains no answers from he who demands that everyone else answers questions…..

My boy is tucked up in bed…everyone know where there’s is/are? Mind you, if mine needs minding 24/7 at 16 I will have failed in my task…what’s the legal age they can be left alone again?

Wow! “all life begins at ejaculation” ?? when did his Holiness come up with that one? Lucia, please step forward….
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July 1, 2012 9:29pm
mikenmild

Technically David, one can be left alone at 13 I believe. Some may still need minding in their fifties or even beyond…
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July 1, 2012 9:31pm
kowtow

big bigot

catholics can’t and don’t stop you from doing jack shit,never have,you do what you want. We don’t live in the Middle ages.
Every time “Catholic” comes up you pop out of the wood work ,like a Monty Python Inquisition character…….you’re a fucken caricature……and a bigot.
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July 1, 2012 9:31pm
mikenmild

But if you don’t do what Benedict says, he won’t put in a good word for you with Jesus. Then where would you be?
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July 1, 2012 9:33pm
renderer

kowtow your first statement is a mile away from the religion i was unfortunately bought up in
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July 1, 2012 9:37pm
big bruv

kowtow

The fact that you cannot stop me from doing what I want really pisses the likes of you and Lucia off.

The fact that you still try and tell us what to do with our lives based on a book of fiction pisses me off.

The result is that I will take every opportunity to fight against your bigotry and religious bullshit.
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July 1, 2012 9:39pm
Yvette

mikenmild –
14
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July 1, 2012 9:40pm
Fletch

“all life begins at ejaculation”

This is BS of course. All animal life begins with the fertilization of egg by sperm.
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July 1, 2012 9:45pm
Harriet

“….So you are happy to see those who want to die with dignity suffer because of your religious beliefs?…”

I haven’t bought religion into it – I presented my case without the use of the ‘r’ word – and the case against euthanasia on all fronts can be won without it.

“…..being trapped in her body by MS….”

They don’t ALL feel like that – why don’t we approach the problem from an ‘equality’ perspective that you lefties preach about all the time, do the studies, get the facts, and help to make the lives of those who are distressed with MS, as good as the lives of those with MS but who can cope ?

Why have you written off those who ONLY find it ‘hard to cope’ – as good as dead already ? You seem rather sick !
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July 1, 2012 9:45pm
David Garrett

Wasn’t it just a few years ago that the Catholic church attempted to ban some movie which suggested Christ may have had a sexual relationship with Mary Magdalen?

Renderer: I am entirely with you…the biggest cult in the world (just imagine hearing news today of a cult that actually believed that when the bells rang a piece of ice cream cone LITERALLY changed into the body and blood of their founder? And that they should tuck in with gusto?) certainly tried to tell me how and what to think ..along with such nonsense that my father couldnt possibly go to heaven because he was an Anglican…and this was 1972 not 1872….

Plus ca meme chose and all that….they have just got more cunning about the delivery of the message
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July 1, 2012 9:47pm
David Garrett

Harriet: forget about MS…please do tell us how you make the lives of someone with Motor Neurone Disease “as good as those who…can cope” Do you actually know anything about MND ?….if not, please do Google it then come back and enlighten us…
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July 1, 2012 9:50pm
big bruv

Harriet

The case for allowing those who want death with dignity is so compelling that only a religious zealot could possibly be against it.

And please, since when has this been an issue of left v right?, it is about what is right and what is wrong.

Allowing ourselves to be influenced by a work of fiction is simply ridiculous in todays modern world.
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July 1, 2012 9:51pm
renderer

kowtow was bought up as a catholic and educated in primary years by nuns. as close to brain washng as you will get.
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July 1, 2012 9:54pm
kowtow

DG
Your disrespectful tone does you no credit. .
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July 1, 2012 9:55pm
David Garrett

Fletch: I dont know if you are being sarcastic or just dont know what you are talking about…Were you aware that in Catholicism having a wet dream is a sin that needs confessing FFS? Either that or the guys on the other side of the grille with the little black curtain enjoyed hearing about it…

And I wonder why, if you ever lost your place in the ritual of confession, the prompt from behind the curtain was ALWAYS “Have you had any rude or impure thoughts”? Even if you hadnt yet got to the bet about how many weeks it was since your last confession…

Did anyone else find that?
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July 1, 2012 9:56pm
kowtow

renderer

As you have bRought up education,the correct spelling is brought not bought as in the verb to buy.

And don’t talk about what you don’t know ie my education.
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July 1, 2012 9:59pm
Fletch

in Catholicism having a wet dream is a sin that needs confessing FFS?

Not at all.
Nocturnal emissions are the male body’s natural way of releasing the buildup of seminal fluid and entirely involuntary; although masturbation is another matter entirely.

And no, no priest has ever prompted me about impure thoughts in the confessional. Not ever, that I can recall.
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July 1, 2012 9:59pm
renderer

DG the confession bit brings back memories
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July 1, 2012 10:00pm
David Garrett

kowtow: That’ll be because far from “respecting” the world’s biggest cult, I despise it…and it’s got even more dishonest since I wised up at about age 13…..

At least back in the day the priests told it as they saw it… contraception was always a sin, period. (pardon the pun)…Now, because the Church in western countries knows it would have no female adherents if they pushed that line, it’s “If you talk to God and you and he agree, then using contraception is not a sin”….

And I am supposed to respect THAT? But hey, if you want to keep believing what some former member of the Hitler Youth issues from Party Central, you go for it my son….(again…)
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July 1, 2012 10:01pm
Fletch

DG, contraception is still a sin, apart from natural family planning.
If a priest is saying otherwise, then he is wrong and not following Church teaching.
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July 1, 2012 10:02pm
Leaping Jimmy

The case for allowing those who want death with dignity is so compelling that only a religious zealot could possibly be against it.

BB you’re so full of it. I’m a religious zealot and I’m not against it.

However I do predict that as the baby boomers get older and start to consume almost the entire GDP with their health care and superannuation costs that every budget from here on in looks as if its been hit by a plague of locusts before any other spending even begins to germinate, that to the poor old Generation X and Y people, l think there will be an increasing desire not just to approve such measure but to encourage them, even though we’re talking about their parents.

It’s just depending where one is on the generation scale, one should be aware and plan accordingly.
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July 1, 2012 10:03pm
renderer

kowtow was actually talking about MY education. the fact there was a spellng error points more to the fact that more tme was spent ramming a bloody fairy story down my throat than teaching readin writin and rithmetic
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July 1, 2012 10:04pm
David Garrett

Fletch: I am not being insulting, but how old are you? My last indoctrination session was about 1973, so I may be a bit rusty on just what is an isnt sinful these days..(Lucia was most helpful on that score a couple of weeks ago)..

but I can assure you that at Edmund Campion College in 1972, we were told “night losses” as they were quaintly called, were sinful….it may have even been by the former Bro. Bede Hampton, currently serving time for fiddling with boys in Masterton….cant remember if it occurred before or after he was at our school…Suffice it to say the reunion held last February led to some catharsis for some of my former classmates…all aged past 50…
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July 1, 2012 10:05pm
kowtow

DG

I think you’ve just fallen for Godwin there mate.
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July 1, 2012 10:05pm
Fletch

ps, confession is good for the soul and wellbeing of a person whether you believe God forgives sins (I do) in the sacrament or not.

The secular version of confession is going to see a psychiatrist, so even the non-religious world recognizes the value in getting things off one’s chest, or telling your troubles to another – and in seeking forgiveness and understanding.

They don’t like the idea of the religious part, but recognize it’s need anyway.
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July 1, 2012 10:06pm
Jimmy Smits

Those living in Auckland may have seen in this morning’s “Herald on Sunday” an article about the persecution of gays in Uganda. The article notes that a newspaper had published the names and addresses of 100 gay men, and had urged people to kill them. Legislation was contemplated (although not pursued, thanks to international outrage) which was referred to as the “Kill the Gays Bill”.

What most depressed me is that the article referred to Uganda as a Christian country. It also referred to the execution of gays in Iran, an Islamic country.

Of course, New Zealand itself is not many years away from being intolerant of gay and lesbian people, and sadly fundamentalist Christians are often the most intolerant in this area. And yet there is no record in the Bible that either Jesus or any of the Old Testament prophets ever made any reference at all to same-sex relations. And while the Holiness Code in Leviticus clearly does condemn same-sex relations, that Code also forbids eating meat containing blood or wearing garments made of two types of fibre, instructions which nobody today takes seriously at all.

It is a huge tragedy that some of those who follow Jesus most diligently remain among the most intolerant people in the community when it comes to same-sex relations.

– Don Brash
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July 1, 2012 10:06pm
Lucia Maria

David Garrett,

Contraception use is still a sin, it’s just that many priests have been in rebellion against some aspects of the Faith, and therefore are a bit wishy washy with the whole thing.

Still a sin. OK? A mortal one at that.
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July 1, 2012 10:07pm
kowtow

renderer
they mustn’t have taught you about lying. you were referring to my education,read your own post.
and don’t blame others for your short comings.
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July 1, 2012 10:07pm
big bruv

“DG, contraception is still a sin, apart from natural family planning.”

Lol..and that works really well.

The late Christopher Hitchens was right when he said that the only true way to give females equality in this world was to allow them to be in charge of their reproductive cycle.

Having sick cults like the Catholic church (as David Garret says, led by a former member of the Hitler youth) tell females that they are not allowed to control how many children they have is denying them the right to partake equally in society.

BTW, did Lucia ever explain the Vaticans disgusting support for the post WW2 “rat lines”?, I wonder if the former member of the Hitler youth will ever get around to explaining or apologising for that.
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July 1, 2012 10:09pm
Fletch

DG, I am over 40 🙂

I am of the understanding, that to sin you must do so with your will. Anything involuntary, or out of your control is not a sin.

CCC 1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

I do not even see how it could be venial sin.
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July 1, 2012 10:12pm
Harriet

Big Bruve #

“..Allowing ourselves to be influenced by a work of fiction is simply ridiculous in todays modern world…”

You idiot.

“The science and religion debate is silly as each is entirely different.Religion is a belief syatem and science is about the gathering of facts.And that is why we teach our children to pray and not gather facts about the existance of God.” -Irving Kristol.

A bit like ‘love’ big bruv – you can’t prove it’s existance at all – least of all in a petri dish.People just believe in it AND try to PROOVE it !

Let’s fuck that off from modern society too eh ?

DG #

please do tell us how you make the lives of someone with Motor Neurone Disease “as good as those who…can cope” Do you actually know anything about MND ?….if not, please do Google it then come back and enlighten us…

So get to my point – where is Street and the doctors going to draw the line – the left or right of things ?
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July 1, 2012 10:15pm
Lucia Maria

Big Bruv,

The Vatican did not support ratlines. There was one priest and a bishop involved in a major way, but a blind eye was turned to them by the West so that could run their own major ratline. That book that I was telling you about a few weeks back goes into all the sordid details.

David Garret,

Wet dreams, or any dreams are not sinful because you are not consciously in control. The brother who told you they were sinful was wrong.

Edited to add: I see Fletch has got a better explanation above.
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July 1, 2012 10:15pm
David Garrett

BB: (Greetings to myself sir…)

I’ll play that one…please do tell us Lucia…firstly do you acknowledge that Pope Pius XII ( aka “Hitler’s Pope) was complicit in getting high end Nazi war criminals out of Europe at the end of WW II?

If you do, how do you justify it? God would sort it all out in judgment day? I think Charles Bronson had a similiar philosophy ..

(“Kill ’em all and let God sort it out”)

Edit: I see you have already answered Lucia, with a denial that the then Head Sharang knew anything about it….I seem to remember David Irving the historian getting locked up for pointing out that no documentary evidence linked Adolf with the final solution either…
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July 1, 2012 10:17pm
Fletch

“DG, contraception is still a sin, apart from natural family planning.”

Lol..and that works really well.

bb, actually it works as well as medical contraceptive methods if followed.

Long-Term Effectiveness of New Family Planning Method Shown in Study

ScienceDaily (Sep. 20, 2011) — A simple-to-use, fertility-awareness based method of family planning developed by researchers from the Institute for Reproductive Health at Georgetown University Medical Center so effectively meets the needs of users that they continue to rely on it for years.

[…]

The Standards Days Method was established as an effective short-term (one year) family planning method in a study published in 2002. In this earlier study, of which Jennings was the principal investigator, the Standard Days Method was found to be more than 95 percent effective at avoiding pregnancy, with a failure rate of less than 5 percent. This effectiveness rate is higher than other use-directed methods such as diaphragm or condom.

James N. Gribble, Sc.D. of the Population Reference Bureau and senior author of the 2011 paper, says their results demonstrate that effectiveness continues throughout the second and third years of use.

“Family planning enables women to have the desired number of children and to space and time births. Almost all the 2011 study participants had children, often with at least one child younger than two years old, before they began to use the Standard Days Method,” he says. “Yet few of the study participants had unplanned pregnancy over the three-year period of the study due to the method’s very high effectiveness.”

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070221065200.htm
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July 1, 2012 10:17pm
kowtow

big bigot
another godwinner.
how could this pope have had anything alledged to do with the vtican in the ’50,s?

As people who claim to love freedom you should sympathise with Ratzinger,By law all yoth were required to be mmebers.His family were not nazis.

DG and big bigot bringing that up proves their small minded angry bigotry as they refuse to acknowledge facts.
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July 1, 2012 10:18pm
kowtow

Ratlines? Why only the Vatican held to account?
the Americans and soviets were involved in smuggling nazis. Can we see the same level of vitriol for them too? No, never mentioned, only the Papists. Therefore it’s bigotry.
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July 1, 2012 10:22pm
big bruv

Kowtow

Can you use the words “facts” and “Catholic church” in the same sentence without falling about in fits of laughter?

David Garrett

I see you have the religious bigots sorted, I will retire for the evening as I have to work again in the morning.
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July 1, 2012 10:25pm
Lucia Maria

David Garrett,

No, I do not acknowledge anything of the sort of Pope Pius XII.

There are many people who want to smear a good man’s name, which is easy to do when idiots far removed from WWII will believe anything.

I would recommend this book for your education: Hitler, the War, and the Pope. It categorically refutes all smears and lies to date.
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July 1, 2012 10:27pm
Harriet

C’mon Garret answer my question –

Where is Street and the doctors going to draw the line – the left or right of things ?

I bet it will be where the ‘compassion’ ends…by the public service run health system…eh ?
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July 1, 2012 10:28pm
David Garrett

Kowtow: Oh dear…I will go slowly…firstly, while it may be true that all young Germans were required to be members of the Hitler Youth, not all were…just as not all Jews meekly submitted to wearing the Star…

But that’s not really the point…how is pointing out the utter inconsistency between doctrine and action in the current head of the Church evidence of “small minded angry bigotry”??

And so far as whoever else was running “ratlines”, the difference is that the OSS and certainly the KGB or its forerunner were not at the same time haranguing poor peasants about their pathetic sins, and demanding obeisance on pain of eternal damnation if they refused…It’s a bit like saying the Capone mob knocked off those who didn’t toe the line, so what was wrong with the Inquisition doing the same thing?
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July 1, 2012 10:28pm
Fletch

Lucia, thanks for pointing in the direction of that book last time. I bought and downloaded it. Am in the process of reading now.
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July 1, 2012 10:28pm
renderer

I see the author of the book is an advisor to the Holy See’s delegation to the United Nations. This would make him totally unbiased
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July 1, 2012 10:31pm
Fletch

DG, the “Hitler Youth” though did not always have the meaning it does for us now, surely? It was more like the Boy Scouts before Hitler was recognized for what he was.
According to wiki –

Following his 14th birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was conscripted into the Hitler Youth—as membership was required by law for all 14-year-old German boys after December 1939[10]—but was an unenthusiastic member who refused to attend meetings, according to his brother.[11]
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July 1, 2012 10:32pm
David Garrett

Harriet: I haven’t a clue where Street will “draw the line”….that’s not the issue…the issue is people like you demanding that those suffering horrible deaths go through the script to the very end because that’s how YOU think the end of life should happen…

Lucia: Allow me to recommend “Hitlers Pope”…can’t remember the author, and can’t be bothered looking for it in my library…And the difference my dear is while I might very well read your recommended text, I’ll bet a jar full of unconsecrated hosts you wouldn’t dream of reading mine!

Fletch: Why was he so unenthusiastic if it was just like the Boy Scouts? Didnt he like camping?
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July 1, 2012 10:32pm
Fletch

I see the author of the book is an advisor to the Holy See’s delegation to the United Nations. This would make him totally unbiased

The author is Associate Dean for Academic Affairs and the Mississippi Defense Lawyers Association Professor of Law at the University of Mississippi School of Law. He approaches the book as a lawyer would argue the case in court.
From one of the reviews of the book –

Professor Rychlak teaches trial law at the Law School, and approaches the accusations against Pope Pius XII as a trial lawyer. I have read many books on Pius XII, and this is by far the most dispassionate in laying out the context, relevant facts, accusations, and evidence pro- and con-. The book is highly engaging because filled with so many little known facts. The research has been prodigious. Yet the presentation is as down-to-earth as it would have to be in a courtroom

It is not just the opinion of one man, but is backed up my meticulous cited facts.
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July 1, 2012 10:36pm
Harriet

Hey Garrett,

The Catholic Church is relatively benign – there’s nothing to be scared of.

You look stupid picking that fight !
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July 1, 2012 10:36pm
Lucia Maria

David Garrett,

This book refutes Hitler’s Pope. Hitler’s Pope no longer has any credibility, except to people who don’t keep up with times.

Fletch,

Cool. Let me know what you think… Maybe even write a review for our blog?
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July 1, 2012 10:36pm
David Garrett

Lucia: Tell you what…you promise to read it, and I’ll send you my copy of “Hitler’s Pope” (I know you wouldn’t break a promise because that would be sinful)…In return, if you send me your tome, I promise to read IT…we can have it out on here a couple of weeks after we have both finished our homework…
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July 1, 2012 10:36pm
Fletch

Lucia: Allow me to recommend “Hitlers Pope”

DG, the book Lucia recommend dismantles “Hitler’s Pope” piece by piece.
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July 1, 2012 10:38pm
kowtow

DG
No the kgb were only shooting peasants.

Hitlers Pope… I go with Golda Meir, look up what she said on the occasion of his death.
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July 1, 2012 10:39pm
David Garrett

“The Catholic Church is relatively benign” Really? An organization that tells some poor guilt ridden woman who lives in a cardboard shack in Mexico City along with her seven (surviving) kids that she musn’t use contraception to prevent any more misery is “benign” ??

You clearly use a different dictionary from mine…Are you female btw? One never knows with these silly nicks….
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July 1, 2012 10:40pm
Fletch

This is what some of the Jews said of Pius –

* Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli: “What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts….Priests and even prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism. Volumes could be written on the multiform works of Pius XII and the countless priests, religious and laity who stood with him throughout the world during the war. No hero, in all of history, was more militant, more fought against, none more heroic, than Pius XII in pursuing the works of true charity…and thus on behalf of all the people of God.”

*Grand Rabbi of Jerusalem, Dr. Isaac Herzog (February 29, 1944): “The people of Israel will never forget what his Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundation of true civilization are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history. Which is living proof of divine Providence in this world.”

*Rabbi Safran of Bucharest, Romania, (April 7, 1944): “It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the Supreme Pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews….The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance.”

*Rabbi Barry Dov Schwartz (Summer Issue 1964 of Conservative Judaism): “Many Jews were persuaded to convert after the war, as a sign of gratitude, to that institution which had saved their lives.”

*Chief Rabbi of Rome, Elio Toaff (after Rabbi Zolli’s conversion): More than anyone else, we have had the opportunity to appreciate the great kindness, filled with compassion and magnanimity that the Pope displayed during the terrible years of persecution and error.”

*Albert Einstein (December 1940 edition of Time): “Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then, I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they like the universities were silenced in a few short weeks… Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone had had the courage and intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced to confess that what I had once despised I now praise unreservedly.” (After the war Einstein wrote, “Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty.”)

*Golda Meir, Israel’s Minister of Foreign Affairs, representative to the United Nations (first delegate to react to Pius XII’s death), later Prime Minister of Israel; “We share with the grief of the world over the death of his Holiness Pius XII. During a generation of wars and dissensions, he affirmed the high ideals of peace and compassion. During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims. The life of our time has been enriched by a voice which expressed the great moral truths above the tumults of daily conflicts. We grieve over the loss of a great defender of peace.”

*Dr. Nahum Goldmann, President of the World’s Jewish Congress: “With special gratitude we remember all he has done for the persecuted Jews during one of the darkest periods in their entire history.”

*Former Israeli diplomat, scholar and Orthodox Rabbi, Pinchas Lapide: “The Catholic Church under the pontificate of Pius XII was instrumental in saving the lives of 850,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands. Then Pius XII deserves the forest in the Judean hills which kindly people in Israel proposed for him in October 1958. A memorial forest like those planned for Winston Churchill, King Peter of Yugoslavia and Count Bernadotte of Sweden, with 86,000 trees. (Besides the honor to Pius, the trees honored nuncios, including Cardinal Roncalli (later Pope John XXIII) of Istanbul who played a major humanitarian role in saving Jews.)

* Leonard Bernstein: Conducting in New York’s Carnegie Hall, he learned of Pius XII’s death and paid personal tribute to the Pontiff responsible for saving the lives of thousands of Jews by tapping his baton for a moment of silence.

*Leo Kubitsky, Secretary-General of the world Jewish Congress presented a donation of two million liras (present value over a million dollars) on behalf of grateful Jews.

*Jeno Levae, Historian and only foreign Jew invited as an expert at Adolph Eichmann’s trial, who spoke at the Auschwitz trial in 1964: “From that day on, acting in accordance with the instruction of the Holy See and always in the name of Pius XII, the Nuncio never ceased from intervening against the disposition concerning Jews, and the inhuman character of the anti-Jewish legislation.”

*Dr. Joseph L. Lichten, Polish diplomat and director of the International Affairs Department of the Anti-Defamation League of B’nai Brith: “What is the case for him? That in relation to the insane behavior of the Nazis from overlords to self-styled cogs like Eichmann, he did everything possible to save lives and alleviate suffering among the Jews; that a formal statement would have provoked the Nazis to brutal retaliation and would substantially have thwarted further Catholic action on behalf of the Jews”.

*Moshe Sharrett: The former Foreign Affairs Minister and Prime Minister of Israel visited Pius XII “to thank the Catholic Church for what it did to save Jews in all parts of the world.” Rabbis of the United States, Rumanian, Italian and Hungarian Jewish communities went to Rome or sent messages thanking him for his efforts.

*Jacob Philip Rudin, President of the Central Conference of American Rabbis: “His sympathy for all, his wise social vision and his extreme understanding made him a prophetic voice in the service of justice everywhere. May his memory be a blessing for the life of the Roman Catholic Church and the World.”

* Antonio Gaspari, who authored “The Jews, Pius XII, and the Black Legend”, chronicled the Nazi-fascist actions in Rome with testimonies from Jews who were saved by Pius requesting assistance from Religious (Over 150 Church institutions in and around Rome helped Italian Jews.)

*Martin Tagliacozzo, the leading authority on Roman Jews in the Holocaust: “I have a folder on my table in Israel entitled ‘Calumnies Against Pius XII.’…without him, many of our own would not be alive.”

*Sir Martin Gilbert: The noted British historian and a Jew, stated that Pius deserved thanks not blame.

*Richard Breitman, authorized by the United States Government to study World War II’s secret espionage documents, the only historian allowed to do so, observed they proved the extent to which Hitler distrusted the Holy See because it hid Jews.

*London’s “Jewish Chronicle”: “Before during and after the Second World War, he tried to carry a message of peace. Confronting the monstrous cruelties of Nazism, Fascism and Communism, he continually proclaimed the virtues of humanity and compassion.”

*Dr. Joseph Nathan, who represented the Hebrew Commission: “Above all, we acknowledge the supreme Pontiff and the religious men and women who, executing the directives of the Holy Father, recognized as their brothers and with great abnegation, hastened to help them, disregarding the terrible dangers to which they were exposed.”
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July 1, 2012 10:41pm
Fletch

Some of the Jewish organizations that praised Pope Pius XII at the time of his death for saving Jewish lives during the horror of the Nazi Holocaust were:
+ The World Jewish Congress
+ The American Jewish Committee
+ The American Jewish Congress
+ The Anti-Defamation League
+ The Central Conference of American Rabbis
+ The National Conference of Christians and Jews
+ The National Council of Jewish Women.
+ The New York Board of Rabbis
+ The Rabbinical Council of America
+ The Synagogue Council of America

No serious scholar contests the evidence that Pius XII took direct and indirect measures to save Jews from the Nazi death machine.
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July 1, 2012 10:42pm
David Garrett

Fletch: The Communist Manifesto dismantles capitalism “piece by piece”…So what? You off to Cuba anytime soon?

As someone else pointed out, the crucial thing is not just the argument, but who’s doing the arguing…and the evidence they cite in support…

Lucia/Fletch: Have either of you actually READ Hitler’s Pope? Didn’t think so…
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July 1, 2012 10:44pm
Fletch

Hitler’s Pope, a 1999 book by John Cornwall, has been thoroughly debunked as anti-religious propaganda — not least, by the author of the book himself. The thesis of Cornwall’s book is that Pope Pius XII, who was the Catholic pontiff from 1939 until 1958, was anti-Semitic and a supporter of Adolf Hitler.

The “Hitler’s Pope” meme took off, despite attempts at telling the truth. In a 1999 piece in Newsweek, religion writer Kenneth Woodward noted that “errors of fact and ignorance appear on almost every page” of the book. Cornwall, notes Woodward, “ignores the contrary evidence in the books cited in his own bibliography.” Woodward was followed by Rabbi David Dalin’s The Myth of Hitler’s Pope. That was followed by Michael Burleigh’s Sacred Causes. Both books demolished Cornwall’s thesis.

In 2004 Hitler’s Pope author John Cornwall himself admitted he had been wrong. “I would now argue,” he said, “in the light of the debates and evidence following Hitler’s Pope, that Pius XII had so little scope of action that it is impossible to judge the motives for his silence during the war.”

So, why would I want to read a book that even it’s author says he doesn’t agree with now?
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July 1, 2012 10:48pm
kowtow

You know what? All this has been said a hundred times but these guys chose to believe the anti Vatican lies.That’s why I say thy’re bigots. It’s not about education .It’s about prejudice hate and mockery.

There is alot of mockery and it;schildish. Look at how some people were trying to swing it away from uno who.
But there’s a hard core of mockers who cn’t seem to help themselves and drop very quickly to that level.

If it’s not phil it’s the catholics, it gets so tiring.
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July 1, 2012 10:50pm
Harriet

The Catholic Church says more than that in Mexico. To others than just the poor.

So yes…it is benign…because that’s all they do…..other than providing resources to help the poor in areas of health, education and other social services.

The swiss guards arn’t stationed in Mexico.
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July 1, 2012 10:51pm
Harriet

kowtow.

Well said.

I didn’t bring up religion at all in my arguement – but what I said was immediatly dismissed as religious based, by both of them.

Then when I called Garrett out on where the line should then be drawn – he wasn’t even scientific about it – but stated instead ‘…..the issue is people like you demanding that those suffering horrible deaths go through the script to the very end because that’s how YOU think the end of life should happen…’

Those ‘suffering horrible deaths’ –

WTF ? Suffering 6 months, 1yr, 2yrs out from when they actually die is death ?

Nazi !
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July 1, 2012 11:10pm
Harriet

kowtow.

Well said.

I didn’t bring up religion at all in my arguement – but what I said was immediatly dismissed as religious based, by both of them.

Then when I called Garrett out on where the line should then be drawn – he wasn’t even scientific about it – but stated instead ‘…..the issue is people like you demanding that those suffering horrible deaths go through the script to the very end because that’s how YOU think the end of life should happen…’

Those ‘suffering horrible deaths’ ?

Death ain’t horrible -if infact it is horrible- until the very last few days.We are ALL dying.

This is a case about how people are LIVING life and at what point should their lives be deemed ‘unliveable’ and by WHOM!

I’m not demanding anything or preaching religion but just asking in this modern day “Where scientificly, should the line be drawn and by whom, about life being ‘unlivable’ ?”

It’s a logical fucken question that needs to have a logical answer – otherwise the bill doesn’t go through !
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July 1, 2012 11:26pm
Longknives

A sadly common misconception held about Catholics these days is that we are all fundamentalist ‘loony tunes’…
I’m proud to call myself a Catholic- Yet I am a hard drinker who (thank Christ) uses contraception, supports the right to die with dignity and I have no problem with Abortion.

That well and truly fucks all your stereotypes doesn’t it?
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July 2, 2012 12:28am
Longknives

Oh yeah- and I reckon you are all just jealous because we got to go on ‘religious retreat’ camps with insanely dirty Catholic girls at High School….
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July 2, 2012 12:31am
Jimmy Smits

Don’t worry Longknives, being a drunk, practitioner of safe sex, a (under the current law) murderer, or someone who has his girlfriend get an abortion is absolutely fine with Andrei, Lucia Maria, etc. Because you called yourself a Catholic. You might as well go ahead and rape a few little kids as well as that would be perfectly fine as well since Christ has washed away all your sins with his blood (who’d have thought, using blood instead of washing powder). If you were a ‘heathen’ (as Leaping Jimmy likes to call us), on the other hand, you will be condemned to eternal torture since you would be the homosexual endorsing scum of the Earth.
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July 2, 2012 1:06am
Viking2

As we always suspected Ministers or their lackeys were involved in Dotcoms case well before the police were bullied into submission and carried out there outrageous raid.

PM’s office part of shutdown on Dotcom tip of
The Prime Minister’s office was involved in shutting down information showing one government department tipping off another over FBI interest in internet magnate Kim Dotcom long before he was arrested.

Emails released under the Official Information Act show staff at the Department of Labour took advice from “the PM’s office” before dodging questions on a leaked email.

The email trail, released by the department under the Official Information Act, showed its media team “ignored” calls and deliberately delayed responding.

Documents returned by the department revealed it had consulted “the PM’s office” on the issue.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10816772

No doubt there will be more.
Seems to me the PM needs a clean out od all those highly paid media people and should replace them with a couple with some integrity and street smarts.
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July 2, 2012 8:01am

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