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June 7, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 7 June 2012

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General Debate

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hj

“Ms Bennett told reporters on Wednesday convicted child abusers, even those who killed their own children, could have more babies and whether they were allowed to keep them was decided case by case.

“We don’t even do that when dogs are abused,” she said.

“People can’t own a dog for two years or five years, but we don’t do that for children.”

She says she wants to get a clear message across to child abusers – if they have more babies, they won’t be allowed to keep them.

Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/Greens-scorn-child-abuse-sanctions/tabid/1607/articleID/256923/Default.aspx#ixzz1x2sXuPZO

Good Point Paula Bennett

Eventually the Greens core (beneficiaries Union; Maori Nationalism) will be exposed.
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June 7, 2012 8:04am
Peter

Firs……….

Damn.
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June 7, 2012 8:04am
Yvette

This seems new –
Savings from class size changes are to be used to develop an appraisal system to help lift and reward teacher performance, with the aim of lifting student achievement.

This is because squeezing teacher numbers, by the back door method of enlarging classes, will have nothing to do with the quality of teacher who is forced to resign.
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June 7, 2012 8:05am
Keeping Stock

This morning’s Dom-Post editorial gives ACC a flogging over the Bronwyn Pullar mess; rightly so too; their conduct has been appalling…

http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2012/06/dom-post-on-acc.html
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June 7, 2012 8:08am
Yvette

FBI agents who copied data from Megaupload founder Kim Dotcom’s computers and took it overseas were not acting illegally because information isn’t “physical material”, the Crown says.

And so, ipso facto, must be immaterial and inadmissible.
And, if “information isn’t “physical material”, what was the supposed crime again?

“If [they] went offshore without the consent of the attorney-general, it was an illegal act.”Mr Akel said that there had been an agreement that none of the evidence against Dotcom, seized after his arrest, would be provided to the FBI without prior agreement … The relevant legislation applied only to physical possessions rather than information, Mr Pike said. “[Information] may be the most valuable thing we have, but it is not scooped up by the act”.

Now, as best practice revealed in CSI [NY, Miami or LA], CRIMINAL MINDS, NCIS and the New Zealand Police in the Urawera, illegally gathered evidence is not admissible.
Mind, laws were adjusted for Warner Bros, so why not cater for the FBI?

Meanwhile –
The size of Kim Dotcom’s Megaupload servers has made disclosing the evidence against him near impossible in the allotted time, New Zealand Crown lawyers have argued … The Crown has today argued against the order in the High Court at Auckland, saying it was “unrealistic” to do so in the 21 days allowed by the court.
Fergus Sinclair, for the Crown, said the servers Megaupload used were massive and would have to be disclosed as the FBI had copied them … “It’s simply too big a job. They wouldn’t get a small way through it in that time.”

So, as the Megaupload ‘service’ was to allow other people to store information on his facilities, how was he expected to know what any of the material is, if the amount of information is so massive?
Consider for example, how was John Banks to know which, of only four or five $25,000 donations, were the two that Kim Dotcom had given him? [Thinks: Wonder how that is going?]
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June 7, 2012 8:09am
hj

The Govt could save money by getting rid ot Te Puni kokori etc,etc. Education would be better off without “Maori Studies”.
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June 7, 2012 8:09am
Yvette

Mr Key took a presentation box of Kapiti Cheeses with him to Buckingham Palace for his private audience with the Queen. It included:
A 1kg wheel of Kapiti Kikorangi Blue Cheese, a 1kg wheel of Kapiti Aorangi Traditional Brice, a 200g Kapiti Tuteremoana Cheddar (aged up to four years) a 170g Kapiti Pakari Aged Cheddar, a 170g Kapiti Portwine Cheddar and a 170g Kapiti Pakari Smoked Cheddar.

Yep – that should keep Her Majesty on the Throne for quite a while longer.
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June 7, 2012 8:14am
Puzzled in Ekatahuna

She [Ms Paula Bennet] says she wants to get a clear message across to child abusers – if they have more babies, they won’t be allowed to keep them.

Translation – Let’s screw – it doesn’t matter about contraception or abortions, the Government will just take care of any kids we have …
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June 7, 2012 8:16am
kowtow

Parental child abuse doesn’t happen any more.

The Bradford Bill supported by National ended all that……….oh wait , all it did was criminalise good parents and here we are again still trying to fix a social problem with yet more legislation that won’t work.
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June 7, 2012 8:26am
flipper

The NZ Horrid et (APN) al yesterday conducted a “nationwide” survey on Parata and class sizes.
APN spoke to 75 persons “at random, on the streets”.
Wow !!!!
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June 7, 2012 8:33am
Michael Mckee

Viking
from your comment on Dotcom yesterday.

However, Crown lawyer John Pike, for the attorney-general, said the material stored on the hard drives could be shipped overseas for the FBI to examine because it did not constitute “physical” material.

The relevant legislation applied only to physical possessions rather than information, Mr Pike said. “[Information] may be the most valuable thing we have, but it is not scooped up by the act”

What a pissy excuse, whilst I don’t like what Dotcom allowed on his servers, I hope he smacks NZ Justice and Police depts harshly and gets serious monies as compensation.
The NZ officials knew what the FBI were doing and therefore are in contempt of the law (especially it’s spirit).
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June 7, 2012 8:36am
wreck1080

I’m quite uncomfortable with removing babies from abusive parents.

The problem is, that, the government now defines a light smack on the bottom as abusive.

We will have children being removed from their parents for light smacks.

And, don’t think it won’t happen — John Key said good parents would not be prosecuted for light smacks, but, this turns out to be wrong too.
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June 7, 2012 8:40am
calendar girl

Agreed, flipper. A laughable survey headlined by “the nation’s leading newspaper”.

The headlong decline in MSM standards continues. The proprietors couldn’t care less – as long as we mugs are prepared to pay for their products.
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June 7, 2012 8:41am
Scott Chris

My 10 cents. Ideal classroom environment:

1) Good teacher
2) Reasonable class size – maybe 25 kids per teacher.

Yeah it costs more in the short term.
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June 7, 2012 8:47am
Manolo

Don’t worry. Accoridng to this socialist money grows in trees: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9314666/French-president-Francois-Hollande-cuts-retirement-age.html
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June 7, 2012 8:48am
Yvette

Yesterday evening CLOSE UP claimed 63% support for gay marriage. This morning BREAKFAST says their poll shows over 80%, but currently this astonishing increase has dropped back to 70% – guess it is going to be a little bit volatile until you get a few more than 74 people voting …

But then –
A nationwide survey has sent a clear message to Education Minister Hekia Parata – New Zealanders don’t want larger class sizes.
The street survey of more than 70 people in centres from Whangarei to Otago showed 81 per cent stood alongside education groups in their opposition to controversial ratio changes announced as part of the Budget.
… Responding to the survey, Ms Parata said: “I know that the traditional way we have judged quality is the size of the class and the size of the classroom. But what we all know is that good teaching makes the difference – we owe it to our kids that all their teachers are good.
…Ian Leckie, of the NZ Educational Alliance Institute, which has united with several other groups to fight the plan, was not surprised by the results.
“What we are saying – and this survey backs it up – is that there is a very high level of support for the stand that the sector group has taken,” he said.
“The message for the Government is that this does not have broad public support and doesn’t have any sector support.”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10811313

I think there is a sound case for cutting Parliament Member numbers from 121 to 70.
Take a survey on it.
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June 7, 2012 8:52am
graham

Or, he’s going to bring in his 75% tax rate on people earning over 1 million euro, and watch the money flow in …

… or those people flee out of the country, one or the other.
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June 7, 2012 8:52am
Mark

The power to take children from their mothers at birth already exists so this is not new law. Where Bennett is comming from is not clear yet. Does she mean for example that a person convicted under the anti smacking law may lose their children and any future children they may have. Is there going to be discretion and scale of abuse parameters. Would children be removed from 1st time offenders or just habitual offenders.

There are so many questions before it is sensible to take a view. Bennett needs to provide some clarity around what is intended here. A first move may be to better resource the child welfare section of MSW.
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June 7, 2012 9:03am
Nookin

“My 10 cents. Ideal classroom environment:

1) Good teacher
2) Reasonable class size – maybe 25 kids per teacher.”

Agree on 1. Classroom size should depend on the group being taught having regard to their educational needs. A good teacher should be able to deal with 30-35 intelligent, motivated kids. Less motivated and struggling kids might need more hands on attention and therefore smaller class sizes. Our whole education system is based on a one-suit-fits-all formula which is fine for the middle but lousy for the extremities. Our problem is that the extremities are very important.
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June 7, 2012 9:10am
hmmokrightitis

wreck, I’ll bite: “And, don’t think it won’t happen — John Key said good parents would not be prosecuted for light smacks, but, this turns out to be wrong too.”

Proof. I call bullshit.
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June 7, 2012 9:11am
labours a joke

Wheres Phillip Ure…Im waiting to see his collection of news items…c’mon Phil Ive been up since 0500…
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June 7, 2012 9:18am
hmmokrightitis

LAJ, bet he doesnt link whore this one…

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/globalbusiness/9261905/High-earners-say-au-revoir-to-France.html
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June 7, 2012 9:21am
Nookin

Library is closed. Is it snowing in Auckland?
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June 7, 2012 9:21am
graham

hmmokrightitis at 9:21: Yep, that’s what I was saying at 8:52. Love the following quote from that article:

In addition, France’s high earners feel increasingly unwelcome in a country now led by a man who has admitted: “I don’t like the rich.” So where are they looking? London. It comes as no surprise – while Hollande prepares to raise taxes, over here David Cameron is cutting the 50pc tax rate for income above £150,000 to 45pc.

Go ahead, Mr Hollande, tax the ‘rich pricks’ – and then wonder why your tax take dries to a trickle as they scamper off to London.
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June 7, 2012 9:27am
travellerev

Has Cris Trotter gone over to the barmy side? Turns out money is printed out of thin air after all. What do you reckon does John Key know it too? If he does he’s got a lot of explaining to do
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June 7, 2012 9:33am
Paulus

In the Dotcom case I see that the FBI screwed the NZ Police (with connivance or otherwise) in sending the data, against the Judges Ruling, to USA.

Sadly this kind of arrogant treatment of the others in the world is symptomatic of the USA.

I can only hope that the Judge when the hearing comes up, if ever, will tell the FBI to get stuffed.

Am sure that Dotcom will sue the Police and the Government well and truly. They deserve it.

Am not really anti USA but some of their treatment of others is disgraceful.
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June 7, 2012 9:34am
Griff

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10811200

A lawyer has found Jesus and shes a crim

“Hulton-Donnelly had no father”

Judge Weir said Hulton-Donnelly had previously been dealt with in the Youth Court on 15 matters, including a charge of robbery. She also had been dealt with in the Rotorua District Court for 23 different offences, including nine convictions for violence.

“You are only 18. What are we going to do with you?” Judge Weir asked.

Surgery on her tubes would be a start
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June 7, 2012 9:42am
philu

(todays’ best-of..)

“…Collapse At Hand…”

“..Imperialism and Violence in Colombia..”

“…From Dreams to Drones: Who Is The Real Barack Obama?…”

“…Ten Reasons to Avoid Doing Business with Amazon.com…”

“…Affluenza Afloat: The Dangers of Supersized Cruise Ships in Our Peak-Oil World…”

“…How Ronald Reagan Ignited Bruce Springsteen’s Politics…”

“…French president Francois Hollande cuts retirement age…”

ed:..ever have the feeling you have been ‘played’…?..in this gobsmacking split-screen vid..howard from australia..and harper from canada..give the exact same speech..that speech justifying invading afghanistan…(!)..(did the americans compose it for them…?..)

“…Can Big Tech Go Green? – How Facebook, Apple and Google Stack Up…”

“…What’s Really in Your Expensive Steak? – You’d Be Surprised…”

“..A government that helps the wealthy and powerful over the poor and disabled is a government with no decency…”

”…Inside the Fearful Conservative Mind: The Right-Wing’s Latest Race Terrors…”

“…Hero and horror: Stalin rebranded…”

“…Of all the things the Queen doesn’t love – ‘boats’ must be top of the list…”

“…Moody’s downgrades seven German banks…”

”David Cameron and Barack Obama urge ‘immediate plan’ over eurozone crisis – World Politics – World – The Independent

“…’The Hobbit’ Production Video 7: Peter Jackson Takes You Inside The Studio…” (video..

“…Erin Moran Living In Trailer Park: ‘Happy Days’ Star Evicted From California Home…”

“…Obama: Bush Tax Cuts For Wealthy Will Not Be Extended – Period…”

“…Jill Biden – The Colbert Report – Full Episode Video…”

“…Gary Johnson – The Daily Show With Jon Stewart – Full Episode Video…”

“…Why working-class people vote conservative…”

“…How the internet killed porn…”

“…Creation Museum…”

“…E3 2012: The five most talked about games so far…”

“…LinkedIn investigates hacking claims…”

“…Cameron and Obama increase pressure on Merkel over eurozone crisis…”

“…Ray Bradbury – writer who captured a generation of sci-fi fans – dies at 91…”

“…Fran O’Sullivan: Tipping point in battle to retain Kiwis…”

“…Brian Rudman: Knight title reveals Cullen’s true colours…”

“…Private school funding ‘at expense of state schools’..”

“…Govt eyes ban on abusers procreating…”

“…NZ says no to larger schoolrooms…”

“…Telstra could lay off more than half of Telecom’s 7000 staff and run most of the business from Australia if it launches a takeover bid for the company..”

coca-cola also to push alcohol…

“…FBI agents who copied data from Megaupload founder Kim Dotcom’s computers and took it overseas were not acting illegally because information isn’t “physical material” – the Crown says…”

“…Housing New Zealand has had to hire almost the same number of staff to run its new call centre as it made redundant to set up its “more efficient” system – figures obtained by Labour show…”

“..Kiwi scientists will investigate whether children who regularly use mobile phones are at greater risk of brain cancer because their skulls are smaller and softer than adults’…”

“…Two Fijian women have described how for months they worked seven-day weeks for $40 in the home of a Wellington businesswoman who is charged with exploiting them…”

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 9:49am
Sofia

A lawyer has found Jesus and shes a crim. “Hulton-Donnelly had no father”
Seems the lawyer missed that the surname was Hulton-Donnelly.

Shit – there it goes: Phil’s total screed of stuff
Absolutely no reason to look at whoar.co today!
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June 7, 2012 9:58am
kowtow

Manolo

French retirement age. What a laugh. A lot of people slag the krauts off over austerity etc and claim they seek to control the EU.

The truth of the matter is the “European project” has all along been a French strategy to control German wealth and industry and thereby dominate Europe. The French, no matter what political hue have always seen themselves as the masters of Europe. For historical reasons we tend to hate the Germans ( at least since Kaiser Willem II because of his imperial ambitions)but in fact they are the sensible ones.They work ,are wealthy, pay taxes and get milked by the indigent rest of Europe.

Germany should pull out of it but is still racked by guilt over the 1933-45 aberation so mus prove it is a good European citizen.And there’s plenty happy to keep reminding them about that era including the German left.
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June 7, 2012 10:04am
kowtow

hmmingrickets calls bullshit on smacking prosecutions……..I call bullshit on his bullshit

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/164622/father-who-smacked-son-charged-assault
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June 7, 2012 10:09am
Griff

Public transport funding is not a sensible use of our money
The Auckland bus way is a case in point

$294,000,000 to move 3100 extra people
that is almost $100,000 per user
Give me $100,000 per passenger plus on going subsidies and I will put on a 1st class limo ferry service from the shore to Auckland central including free bar and massages

figures from
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10811239
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Busway,_Auckland
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June 7, 2012 10:10am
philu

kow tow..are you forgetting the realities that german banks enthusiasticaly pushed/lent those billions to those countries..

..germany is locked into a waltz of debt/death with the poorer euro countries…

..and just to emphasise those economic realities a tranche of german banks had credit downgrades today..

..reason:..their exposure to that bad-debt..

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 10:11am
Pete George

Why don’t they both increase and decrease class sizes?

Nudging up the size of average classes of average kids will hardly make a difference.

Redirecting substantial resources to the bottom 10-20% of kids that are failing could make a big difference.
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June 7, 2012 10:11am
Scott Chris

Less motivated and struggling kids might need more hands on attention and therefore smaller class sizes.

Nookin, in my opinion struggling kids need to be in the class with their average peers. Separating underachievers from the mainstream is proven to do more harm than good, that is why teachers need smaller class sizes in order to devote a disproportionate amount of one-on-one time with these kids, many of whom will turn out to cost society a great deal more in the future if not effectively educated. (an in many cases, re-educated)

There is no reason why one great teacher cannot effectively teach 500 motivated, autonomous kids but that notion is incompatible with reality.
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June 7, 2012 10:17am
graham

Actually I caught sight of one of philu’s headlines “Affluenza Afloat: The Dangers of Supersized Cruise Ships in Our Peak-Oil World” and it reminded me that I must start looking into the next cruise. The Christmas cruise around Fiji and Tonga last year was superb.
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June 7, 2012 10:24am
hmmokrightitis

kowtow, you may have missed the comment…

“a light smack”

That doesnt leave a mark. A hefty great big bloody whack does. A light smack? Nope.
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June 7, 2012 10:32am
Scott Chris

The weight of the smack often depends on how pissed off the smacker is. That’s the problem. Anger.
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June 7, 2012 10:49am
flipper

Griff…
The Auckland bus lane cost bennies are somewhat similar to the Greek transport solution- use taxis, they are cheaper than rail or bus (based on the cost to their few , real, taxpayers) systems.
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June 7, 2012 10:50am
philu

europe now is similar to europe at the height of the cold war…

..we have mutually assured destruction (mad..)..again..

..except this time the destruction is economic..not nuclear…

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 10:57am
joana

There was an interesting programe last night , Dateline re Greece. Various politicians were interviewed ..the rising left , the rising right etc..but what was most interesting and inspiring were these people , about 9,000 of them who have developed a goods and labour exchange system using the Euro and a ”currency” they have devised called The TEM. The system sounded similar to systems advocated by our local young anarchists. There are 8/9 similar schemes operating in Greece but I think this one is the biggest. At least these people are able to eat; they are hopeful and helping one another.
Younger Greeks who were interviewed all seemed to be anti Germany and Europe. Those who can , are heading for Melbourne and other places and the Chinese are waiting for the fire sale.
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June 7, 2012 11:00am
tom hunter

Excellent news for those far-lefters who’ve long wanted to see the Imperialist USA taken down. According to the “blue-collar voter” in the following video, “The end of the USA as we know it, just happened”.
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June 7, 2012 11:01am
Boglio

When the teacher to pupil ratio was lowered the schools took the opportunity to leave the class sizes at their previous levels or to increase them in order to give the extra to teachers as non contact time. The schools also employed other specialist teachers to widen the variety of subjects that they could offer

I would be interested to know what the actual average class size is and whether the schools are using the reductions by the government to stir up dissent when they have already by their own actions increased the class sizes over that set out in the Budget.
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June 7, 2012 11:03am
Michael Mckee

hmmokrightitis (473) Says:
June 7th, 2012 at 9:11 am

Your bullshit is sadly not the issue.

What is is that we have used a 18 pound sledge hammer to crack a walnut.
yes there are people who beat children and they need to be prosecuted and many of them need a bit of jail time.
For some of them that needs to be life even (though I might prefer death:-)

However a smack on the bum is never an assault from a loving parent when the child needs it.

The reality which you and others aren’t acknowledging is that the ones we see are but the tip of the iceberg.
There are many many more parents and families who are traumatised by having NZPolice and CYPs come into the home and treat them as criminals with all the fear they can engender to both adults and children.

When this is done by a CPYS feminazi or socialistsa it is the brutal face of the state staring down at them.
Essentially they are saying you could lose your kids or if you do this again you could lose your kids for a smack on the bum.

Does this do anything for the real “at risk” kids?
NO.

All this was forewarned in hundreds of submissions including mine.
This should never have happened and remember +80% of respondents in polls did not want this to happen but they were ignored by 112 people who can’t spell democracy let alone what it means.
Half of those 112 knew that the sheeple wouldn’t not vote for them as they wanted Helen gone for Good, as has been proved.

so sorry Hhmo we agree on many things but this issue not at all I suspect.
We should always deal to the offenders not the ordinary mums and dads.

A smack on the bum should never be an assault as it is now in law.
John Key is a liar, I’ve been in the same room as him as he has done so on this matter.
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June 7, 2012 11:28am
Michael Mckee

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/06/30000-secret-surveillance-orders-approved-each-year-judge-estimates/

If you were under are surveillance but are innocent should you be informed you were under surveillance after the fact by the state?

edit
Is there a record somewhere officially that says you were subject to surveillance and could be brought up at a later date which could be used as smoke against you.

My thought is our Police aren’t the most honest are they?
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June 7, 2012 11:35am
Lance

I don’t know why Philu is getting so enthused about economic collapses?
A big depression and economic collapse will mean NO benefit Phil!

You should be talking the world economy up. Convincing everyone its all o.k.
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June 7, 2012 11:35am
philu

i am hardly ‘enthusiastic’..

..it is just a reality that is happening..

..we are coming up to a period of major changes…

..how that will all shake out is yet to be seen..

(i’m optimistic..but..y’know..!..)

..but you are welcome to believe the spin..and stay in total denial..

..and the mainstream media has long played that ‘reassurance’/unquestioning-role..

..we hardly need even more of that..

..phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 11:42am
Sofia

Michael McKee – There are many many more parents and families who are traumatised by having NZPolice and CYPs come into the home and treat them as criminals with all the fear they can engender to both adults and children.
When this is done by a CPYS feminazi or socialistsa it is the brutal face of the state staring down at them. Essentially they are saying you could lose your kids or if you do this again you could lose your kids for a smack on the bum.

Of course someone is likely to ask for a link or reference that evidences this as actually happening.
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June 7, 2012 11:46am
Pete George

Who watched Back Benches last night? What did you think of the MP performances?

I’ve seen a lauding of Shearer and dissing of Kaye on Twitter.

I thought:
– Winston was Winston
– Russel Norman seemed aloof, awkward and out of touch for the first half, but warmed up.
– David Shearer surprised most, he often came across like an overbearing up himself boof.
– Nikki Kaye was feisty and performed well (mostly) against a stack of opposition.
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June 7, 2012 11:54am
philu

yr rightwing slip is showing there..p.g..

..better hike it up..eh..?

..wouldn’t want people to know..eh..?

..phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 11:59am
Elaycee

“What do you reckon does John Key know it too? ”

Oh no….. yet more crap from the ‘IDontLikeJohnKey’ leftard squad led by the resident muppet: trivialrev.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiHVM1hZmVI
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June 7, 2012 12:10pm
Manolo

Why would a bludger and parasite celebrate the economic demise of the world? The mind boggles.
Those who can, work. Those who cannot, steal and sponge off others.
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June 7, 2012 12:11pm
boredboy

Finally the Auckland Airport Domestic Terminal is to be completed:

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/business/107668/new-domestic-terminal-at-auckland-airport

Ever wondered why the current terminal looks so much like a cargo shed?
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June 7, 2012 12:27pm
philu

look manolo..!..over there..!

..dusky-crime..!

..quick..!

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 12:30pm
graham

philu might ridicule the mainstream media – “full of spin, biased, etc.” – but his sources are just as bad.

Alternet is just one example. Out of curiosity I checked out the “Affluenza Afloat: The Dangers of Supersized Cruise Ships in Our Peak-Oil World” article. I found this little gem:

Bay Area conservationist, Win Lamar … figures resentment will grow if oil is used frivolously on non personal transportation for luxury excursions. “Ships are still for the one-percent elite and as long as resources and wealth go to the fewest, the anger will climax.”

Excuse me? Ships are for the one-percent elite? I went on a cruise ship last year, and I’m certainly not among the “elite”. Nor were the vast majority of the passengers on board with us.

Let’s give Alternet another try, shall we? “Can Big Tech Go Green? How Facebook, Apple and Google Stack Up” claims that Google states that it is “committed to using renewable energy, like wind and solar, as much as possible” but mostly relies on power generated from the grid, which “isn’t currently very green.” The conclusion is that Google is bad, “Green”-wise. But they neatly fail to mention some of Google’s initiatives such as their partnership with a local water-treatment utility in Georgia to cool a massive data center using greywater (water recycled from residential bathtubs, showers, washing machines, and the like). The grey water they use is destined for the Chattahoochee River. Google uses the water, treats it, disinfects it, and the water that ends up in the Chattahoochee River is cleaner than it was to start with. But Alternet, that great bastion of free open speech, doesn’t mention this. I’m just shocked …

But philu, you are welcome to “believe the spin..and stay in total denial..”

…eh?
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June 7, 2012 12:34pm
philu

re..’elite’…i presumed he was taking a global perspective….

..in which case of course it is only the global ‘elite’ who get to cruise in these behemoths…

..(you thought he mean’t just new zealand..?.)

..and yr next paragraph is a textbook example of selectives-quoting..to distort the authors’ meanings…

..as the tone of his piece is doing a contrast and compare amongst the big technos..

..and he concludes that google is doing much better than facebook..(which is doing dire…)

..he actually praises google..

..and that he tries to present a complete picture…listing google-failings/shortcomings as well as declaring them ‘first’…

..you try to spin into some attack on the aggregation-site..?

..dream on sailor..!..eh..?

(but of course you are right in general about cruise ship passengers not being ‘elites’…

..if you have seen them spilling/gawping off those boats…lowest-common-denominator is much more like it…

..they are like a mix of a holiday camp and bus-trip…those cruises..

..all with enforced-strangers…(shudder..!..)

..that you can’t escape from..(double-shudder..!!..)

..highlights being allowed off to exploit/haggle-down third world peasants for their trinkets/tat…

..my idea of a type of hell…

..but you like it..eh..?..

..that dosen’t really surprise me..eh..?…

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 12:54pm
graham

So it’s “only the global ‘elite’ who get to cruise in these behemoths” …

… but on the other hand, it’s the “lowest-common-denominator”?

Make up your mind, which is it?

And the rest of your comments just go to show you have no idea about cruises. Mind you, as you talk about the author as “he” when Luanne Bradley is obviously a “she”, I do wonder if you actually read any of this stuff.

Re Google – you claim:

..and yr next paragraph is a textbook example of selectives-quoting..to distort the authors’ meanings…

..as the tone of his piece is doing a contrast and compare amongst the big technos..

..and he concludes that google is doing much better than facebook..(which is doing dire…)

..he actually praises google..

..and that he tries to present a complete picture…listing google-failings/shortcomings as well as declaring them ‘first’…l

Really. Well let’s have a look, shall we?

The entire mention about Google in this 3-page ‘story’ is as follows:

The search engine giant Google, unfortunately, is not forthcoming about its data centers. An educated guess would put the number of its centers in the dozens. But since little is known about Google’s actual server facilities, even less is known about where Google derives its energy. The company states that it is “committed to using renewable energy, like wind and solar, as much as possible” but mostly relies on power generated from the grid, which “isn’t currently very green.”

So in terms of energy transperancy, Google is far behind both Facebook and Apple.

Here’s the link so people can see for themselves. Damned if I can see where in that quote the author “praises” Google, or declares them “first”.

http://www.alternet.org/environment/155659/can_big_tech_go_green_how_facebook%2C_apple_and_google_stack_up

But you keep on believing the spin, and stay in total denial. The spin you believe just happens to twist a different way from the mainstream media, but it’s still spin.
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June 7, 2012 1:11pm
dime

why are people talking to him??

ignore him, watch the meltdown and hopefully the demerits
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June 7, 2012 1:14pm
philu

“..Make up your mind, which is it?..”

it’s both..

..you can’t grasp that…?

..got a wee furrowed brow there..?

..anyone around who could explain it to/for you..?

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 1:14pm
RRM

I think the idea is that only the lowest common denominator amongst global elites travels on cruise ships…?
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June 7, 2012 1:18pm
philu

my bad/correction:..i had not read the whole piece..(i now have..)

..and yes..google is the worst…facebook not quite as bad..

..and apple is the cleanest/greenest…

..and yr counter-examples appear to be just greenwashing by google…

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 1:24pm
Tookinator

After 10 years i’m finally making some progress! (See interview in article)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/7057898/Schemes-to-raise-organ-donation-unveiled

I suspect Tony Ryall read my guest post on Organ Donation on Kiwiblog a few weeks ago and gave in 🙂
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June 7, 2012 1:26pm
graham

Okay philu, if you must, let’s go through this one step at a time.

Define “the global elite”; or, as the writer says, the “one-percent elite”. What is your definition?
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June 7, 2012 1:28pm
philu

“..ignore him, watch the meltdown and hopefully the demerits..”

do you seriously think i don’t like having the bile-spewing anonymous trolls..such as yrslf..

..silent..?

..leaving ideas to be actually entertained..?

..really..?

..o.k..!..you just carry on..!..eh..?

(heh..!..did beryl the cat-killer-sot get you to believe his drunken psycho-babble/analysis….?..

..that’s funny..!..

..wanna buy a bridge..?..)

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 1:29pm
RRM

Tookinator – good stuff!

I still think they should consider offering to buy the organs…
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June 7, 2012 1:32pm
graham

And why am I not surprised that you don’t like meeting real people, who might be (gasp!) different from you? Or as you call them, “enforced-strangers…(shudder..!..) ..that you can’t escape from..(double-shudder..!!..)

I had some great conversations with people from different walks of life, and thoroughly enjoyed meeting some new people. My wife and daughter got to mix with loads of new people as well. But I guess that’s not your scene, hmmm?
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June 7, 2012 1:32pm
philu

“..But I guess that’s not your scene, hmmm?..”

you got that in one..

enforced small talk with people i have nothing in common with…and who interest me not at all..

..is another version of hell..

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 1:41pm
graham

Now there’s a surprise … that explains so much.
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June 7, 2012 1:43pm
philu

jolly good..glad to have provided the enlightenment..

(you should consult with beryl…the cat-killer/sot….)

..phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 1:48pm
graham

No, you haven’t. See my post at 1.28.

I’m still waiting for you to define “the global elite”; or, as the writer says, the “one-percent elite”. What is your definition?
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June 7, 2012 1:50pm
Manolo

Are those nutters still picketing the French restaurant in Wellington?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9314096/Foie-mageddon-California-in-one-last-foie-gras-binge-before-statewide-ban.html
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June 7, 2012 1:54pm
philu

get an adult to explain it to you..graham..

..i can’t be fucked with trying to explain yr misunderstandings..

..i’d be there all fucken day..eh..?

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 2:06pm
Ryan Sproull

Foie gras is pretty fucked up.
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June 7, 2012 2:16pm
philu

i’ve just figured out why you are so annoying graham..

..you are just like that p.g..

..always coming up with bullshit/ultimately irrelevant to the topic under discussion..arguments/’questions’..

..why don’t you go and talk to each other..?

..now there’s a solution..!

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 2:17pm
graham

“Get an adult” – ie, someone other than you ..eh..?

..i can’t be fucked with trying to explain yr misunderstandings..

Translation: “I like to use cliches like “the one-percent elite” when I can’t be bothered coming up with facts to support my argument. They sound good, but in fact I suspect they’re actually meaningless made-up little sound-bites that don’t stand up to any sort of scrutiny.”

Thanks for clearing that up. 🙂 I’m off to do some work now, so I can afford my next cruise, secure in the knowledge that I will enjoy cruising with interesting people, some of whom are actually different to me (great way to broaden your horizons ..eh..?), and you won’t be there.
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June 7, 2012 2:22pm
philu

“..and you won’t be there…”

indeed..!..something we are both glad of…

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 2:23pm
Put it away

Hang on a minute, are the dotcom supporters who argue that filesharing copyrighted material is not stealing because no one has been deprived of physical property, now accusing the feds of stealing those same files by copying them? Either information has an owner or it doesn’t. Make your mind up…
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June 7, 2012 3:00pm
Fletch

It looks like the efforts of some to shut down the pro-life group on an Auckland campus has a mirror in Sydney, where exactly the same thing is happening. But screw free speech right?

Most people would agree that free speech is worth protecting, even if it leads to despicable Neanderthals standing before a microphone

I think it preposterous, then, that there have been moves to shut down a recently established pro-life society at the University of Sydney. The existence of LifeChoice Sydney, a secular and non-partisan organisation aiming to promote discussion of abortion and euthanasia, is under threat just a week after it was approved by the University of Sydney Union.

Pro-choice advocates have labelled the society “non-inclusive”, “extremist” and a threat to the safety of women on campus. They have mooted an amendment to the Union’s constitution that prohibits the establishment of any society that is pro-life. They have even proposed that the Union representatives who approved the society be “censured”.

A campaign has been launched on Get-Up entitled “How about I make my own life choices” (stop the anti-abortion society at USYD). The critics of the society have labelled LifeChoices members”‘body fascists”. And as students gathered yesterday for a forum on campus to discuss the issue, opponents of LifeChoices labelled the group “holocaust deniers”.

This isn’t feminism; this is frenzied, foam-flecked paranoia.

Student Rep Council president Phoebe Drake summed up the campaign when she said yesterday: “A woman’s right to chose comes before freedom of speech”.

As Salman Rushdie says, “Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself”. If a handful of pro-lifers are so dangerous that their very presence is as toxic as Chernobyl, they should be disestablished. But if they don’t pose a clear and present danger to all women, leave them alone. LifeChoices is a society that aims to promote “reasonable and informed discussion”, not honour killings or female genital mutilation.

If I recall correctly, universities are supposed to foster reasoned discussion and debate. They are environments where future leaders can engage with key ethical and political issues. Why then are societies which aim to discuss these issues being targeted? The idea of “the academy”, where the ideas that will shape tomorrow are discussed and debated, will become utterly meaningless if controversy is stifled.

This situation strikes me as another case of what you might call “illiberal liberalism”. Those who worship at the shrine of individual autonomy are trying to curtain freedom of association. The subtext to the Sydney Uni situation is something like this: “Everyone deserves the right to freedom of opinion, provided you agree with us”.

There are certainly cases when extreme groups express hateful and offensive opinions. But increasingly, people and groups who are simply putting forward an alternative opinion are being labelled “extremist” and being silenced. This is not the only campus. Similar moves are afoot to disestablish a pro-life organisation at the University of Auckland.

A truly liberal society is very cautious about censorship and very bold about promoting freedom of expression. These ideals are fundamentally undermined if we censure minority opinions.

This disgraceful attempt to stamp out diversity at the University of Sydney ought to sound alarm bells. In a democratic society, it is essential that we debate inflammatory issues like abortion and gay marriage in an amicable, civilised, tolerant way. Otherwise, we will abandon our liberal heritage.

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/The-campus-spat-scaring-the-life-out-of-liberal-democracy/

“A woman’s right to chose comes before freedom of speech”. Oh really? Since when?
And comparing a pro-choice group to “holocaust deniers”? How?

Could it be that there is some kind of collusion between those trying to get these two groups ousted at the same time?
Or is it just a coincidence?
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June 7, 2012 3:12pm
Put it away

Graham – “one percenter” always makes me think of the mana party, since that’s what they got in the election, despite phool’s predicted landslide. Don’t think you could call them “elite” though. “special”, certainly.
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June 7, 2012 3:24pm
graham

Indeed, PIA. Or Occupy, who claimed to be fighting the “one percent” and representing the “99%” (despite the fact that the total number of people involved in Occupy throughout NZ was more like 0.0001%).

Yeah, you wouldn’t call them “elite” either, really … would you?
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June 7, 2012 3:35pm
Weihana

Put it away (2,844) Says:
June 7th, 2012 at 3:00 pm

Hang on a minute, are the dotcom supporters who argue that filesharing copyrighted material is not stealing because no one has been deprived of physical property, now accusing the feds of stealing those same files by copying them? Either information has an owner or it doesn’t. Make your mind up…

Nonsense. What it means to “own” information can mean many different things depending on the context. There is no single set of rights that are ascribed to owners of information. Indeed in the context of copyright the rights afforded to copyright holders differs depending on jurisdiction. Such rights also differ depending on how the copyrighted content is used.

In any case this issue doesn’t concern copyright at all as far as I understand. The issue is whether Dotcom would be prejudiced by copying of the information since that information may now be out of the control of the NZ police contrary to the orders of the court.

Moreover, defenders of Dotcom need not reject copyright as a legitimate protection of intellectual property since much of this case rests on the notion of “inducement” via the incentives Megaupload may have created. Indeed I’m not aware that Dotcom is taking an ideological stand with the Pirate Bay but rather is saying that he provided a legitimate service that some people chose to abuse on their own accord and which he should not be held responsible for.
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June 7, 2012 3:45pm
philu

you don’t see far past the end of yr nose..there..do ya..graham..?

..you haven’t noticed that most of the occupy ideas are now the tenets of the anti-austerity backlash..?

..that it has sounded the death-knell of the rightwing/austerity/neo-lib/randite bullshit..?

..you haven’t noticed that yet..?

..(when cameron does an austerity-u-turn..will you notice then..?..)

..never mind..you just go and cruise-dream..eh..?

..think about all those exciting people you will meet…eh..?

..that ‘elite’..

..phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 4:08pm
graham

The ‘elite’ that you can’t even define 🙂

Tell ya one thing, philu, they’re a damn sight more interesting than the Occupy movement.
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June 7, 2012 4:09pm
publicwatchdog

Here you go Kiwibloggers!

Want to check out the updated –

http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com/uncategorized/john-banks-do-the-honorable-thing-resign/#comments

– with the ‘Open Letter’ calling for John Banks to do the ‘Honorable’ thing – and RESIGN?

Kind regards

Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption campaigner’
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June 7, 2012 4:10pm
Manolo

The political scene in the US: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_DEMOCRATS_TOUGH_MONTH?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-06-06-16-55-13
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June 7, 2012 4:15pm
philu

“..they’re a damn sight more interesting than the Occupy movement…”

i doubt it..

..what do you talk about..?

..golf..?

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 4:35pm
graham

Ah, no, I have no idea where you get that from. I’ve never played golf in my life.

Just admit it, philu – all the cliches of ‘the one percent’; ‘the elite’; ‘the rich pricks’; ‘the haves vs the have-nots’ – all these are just cliches used by people who can’t be bothered putting in a decent day’s work, preferring instead that all life’s luxuries be handed to them on a plate. They then get royally p!ssed off when that doesn’t happen. So they then get p!ssed off at those of us who DO put in a decent day’s work, and reap the rewards.

As you obviously think that ‘putting in a decent day’s work and reaping the rewards’ means the same as ‘being elite’, then guilty as charged, m’lud! 🙂
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June 7, 2012 4:39pm
philu

your ‘not getting it’ is comprehensive…

..as deep as it is wide..

..and runs the gamut from basic to mildly complicated..

..eh..?

..phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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June 7, 2012 4:43pm
bereal

if marriage is NOT an institution between a a man and a woman,
Then why can’t i marry my cat ?

Why can’t five shirtlifters adopt a few young boys ?
That would be a family. right ?
All good ?

We need to recognise the agenda of the deviants….which is..
Reduce all moral standards, because then, their sick deviant life appears to be
more Normal.

Put it quite simply…..
if a marriage can not be limited to the accepted concept of “one man and one woman.”
then my sick depraved life can be justified.

People need to wake up to how the deviants are skewing the argument.

Why have any morals at all ?

[DPF: If you are unable to debate this issue without resorting to such terms, then you’ll be debating it on another site. ]
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June 7, 2012 4:51pm
Ryan Sproull

if marriage is NOT an institution between a a man and a woman,
Then why can’t i marry my cat ?

If murder is NOT shooting someone in the face, then why can’t I murder a fire engine?!
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June 7, 2012 4:57pm
Ryan Sproull

“But sir, murder is not just shooting someone in the face. There are other kinds of murder.”

“IF WE REDEFINE MURDER SO IT’S NOT JUST SHOOTING SOMEONE IN THE FACE, THE NEXT THING YOU KNOW WE’LL BE ARRESTING PEOPLE FOR TURNING OFF THEIR TELEVISIONS!”
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June 7, 2012 4:59pm
bereal

Now there we have, right before all our, eyes the reasoning of a fuckwit.
Ryan Sproull

Ryan your point is just as cognisant as if i had aked you, “Why is a mouse if it spins ?”

Effing idiot.

Why is that mouse Ryan ?
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June 7, 2012 5:01pm
Ryan Sproull

One of its legs is the same.
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June 7, 2012 5:03pm
bereal

Ok, then what is the difference between a duck ?
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June 7, 2012 5:06pm
Yvette

Penny Bright you have errors in your –
OPEN LETTER TO THE ‘HONORABLE’ JOHN BANKS, MP FOR EPSOM 21 May 2012
…
Have you been politically protected at the highest levels, because this minority National Government has only 59 out of 121 MPs, thus no mandate for assets sales, because there is not a majority of National MPs, so is dependent on your pivotal vote?

The National ‘Party’, not ‘Government’, has 59 seats.
John Banks’ vote is no more ‘pivotal’ than United First’s one seat, or each of the Maori Party’s three seats.
In the interests of TRUTH you should FIX these ERRORS
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June 7, 2012 5:08pm
Ryan Sproull

Ok, then what is the difference between a duck ?

Counter-quackwise.
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June 7, 2012 5:09pm
bereal

DPF @ 4.51

OK, you are the boss.
i accept your judgement.

In future i will refer to them as homosexuals.

Maybe i did need pulling in a bit.

Fair call.
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June 7, 2012 5:17pm
Boglio

As I’ve said before if two men or two women want to join together – have a partnership – civil union etc with all the rights, privileges and responsibilities of being married then its ok by me BUT give it another name and legislate for it. Leave the words marry, married, marriage etc for the union between a man and a woman….the Church got in first and coined the words for the union between male and female
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June 7, 2012 5:18pm
Griff

When is a piss head druged up
when its beryl
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June 7, 2012 5:21pm
bereal

And Ryan,
“Why is an elephant if it flies ?”
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June 7, 2012 5:23pm

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