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June 21, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 21 June 2012

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David Garrett

Mikey: I can answer you very shortly. What the court got wrong in interpreting the “principles of the treaty” is in deciding that there were none, and therefore that it was incumbent on them to devise some “principles”.

The court was placed in this position – which I am sure Cooke P (as he then was) seized with alacrity – because of Geoffrey Palmer’s insertion of s.9 to the SOE’s act which says “Nothing in this Act shall be inconsistent with the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi”. The problem was – as Professor Sir Geoffrey purportedly failed to note – was at that time there WERE no generally agreed “Principles of the Treaty”,…..so the court made them up. History will decide in due course whether Professor Sir Geoffrey was a naive dickhead, or alternatively that he knew very well that this provision opened the door to judicial activism on a hitherto unprecedented scale.

the rest, as they say, is history.
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June 21, 2012 4:15pm
Manolo

News today’s NZ-style: http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8487168/coroner-blames-alcohol-for-four-deaths
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June 21, 2012 4:19pm
mikenmild

David
Given that subsequent courts and government have accepted those as a useful set of principles, could we not say that has been a successful approach?
Re the hysteria about the consitutional review, I shouldn’t hold my breath expecting anything to significant to emerge.
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June 21, 2012 4:22pm
Griff

Re the hysteria about the consitutional review
Where mike is this hysteria? if you think nothing significant will emerge you are mistaken it will add fuel to the demands of the treatists to take over the country and even if the result of the review are not accepted it will add significantly to the demands they “entrain”
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June 21, 2012 4:30pm
kowtow

scott chris wants all cultural compnoets included as equally important

where would conservative christianity fit?
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June 21, 2012 4:45pm
Griff

“where would conservative christianity fit?”
In its rightful place as representing a minority view held by conservative Christians. As represented by the election results for conservative Christian partys in the last or upcoming elections. As should weighting of the views of the Maori separatists be
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June 21, 2012 4:52pm
Griff

How the world views New Zealand asset sales?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-04/maori-battle-goldman-by-mount-doom-as-new-zealand-sells-assets.htm
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June 21, 2012 5:28pm
nasska

Griff

I’ve taken a file copy of David Garrett’s 4.15pm comment as it sums up the craven way the socialist legal hack Palmer sold out the many to the few. He didn’t even have the guts to stipulate the so called ‘principles’ but rather relied on a Labour leaning judiciary to do his dirty work for him.

The waffling fool is leaving a legacy of trouble & division. I hope history judges him accordingly.
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June 21, 2012 5:30pm
Monique Watson

http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8487126/octopus-attaches-to-dolphins-genitals

Link speaks for itself.
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June 21, 2012 5:45pm
nasska

Monique

To be fair, I think that a similar experience would hone your aqua gymnastic skills very quickly. 🙂
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June 21, 2012 5:50pm
philu

good link griff:..’error page 404′..’not found’..

wanna try again..?

phillip ure whoar.co.nz
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June 21, 2012 5:51pm
Griff

stole the link from http://tumeke.blogspot.co.nz/2012/06/mana-threaten-overseas-investors-not-to.html

and missed the last letter

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-04/maori-battle-goldman-by-mount-doom-as-new-zealand-sells-assets.html
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June 21, 2012 6:01pm
Griff

Monique Watson
Thats what i call a big suck off
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June 21, 2012 6:04pm
Manolo

The despicable comrade Clark continues to preach the red mantra from her high pulpit: http://cnsnews.com/blog/paul-wilson/un-official-western-nations-dont-need-more-cars-more-tv-whatever
This sinister woman is determined to cause as much damage as she could possibly inflict.
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June 21, 2012 6:18pm
chiz

Maybe the octopus was just exploring its sexuality? 🙂
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June 21, 2012 6:54pm
Komata

Re: Comrade Clark. How long does her tenure at ‘headquarters last and what happens after she’s finished there? Aside from the possibility that she could become Secretary General of the UN (her stated aim I understand), does anyone consider it likely she will come back to NZ and pick-up where she left off? If not, why not?
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June 21, 2012 7:08pm
wiseowl

DG @4.15pm.
This action by Palmer while described ‘nicely’in your terms, has been responsible for enormous damage to this country.
What I cannot grasp is the lack of the National MP’s combined brain power to understand this and to take action to rectify.

Even Banks now should be using his position to correct this impediment to a harmonious and constructive future.

But as has been stated before ‘compromise and appeasement’ .

BS
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June 21, 2012 7:20pm
nasska

Komata

There’s no earthly reason that I’m aware of why she couldn’t. The rabble currently sitting in the opposition benches would sell their childrens’ kidneys for another crack at power.

As an aside your conjecture may cause chronic insomnia NZ wide.
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June 21, 2012 7:21pm
Viking2

From Espiener and Key Interview.

And, of course, his beloved boot camps. He says 60% of participants go on to get jobs and he is now going to use his prime ministerial powers of persuasion to shame companies into employing everyone who finishes the course.

“I am going to put the hard word on them that I think it is the right corporate responsibility to do that. There are enough big companies around New Zealand. We are talking about 1500, maybe 2000, kids a year, for them to collectively stand up and say, ‘I’ll take one and I’ll take two.’”

Well he could fix this immediately without having to ask/pressure anyone.

Mr JOHN KEY. please note that if you reintroduce youth rates the employers of New Zealnd Incorporated will willingly and dilligently employ more young people.

Its not to hard and won’t hurt a bit. Find some principles and just change the stupid fucking law that makes them too expensive. Employ supermarket tactics. Markdown your stock. It bloody works.
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June 21, 2012 7:23pm
chiz

Interesting article on peak stuff – the thesis that the rate at which consume resources peaks once we reach a certain level of affluence.
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June 21, 2012 7:32pm
Leaping Jimmy

If not, why not?

Because she’s been here, done that Komata. Psychologically she would see this as a retrograde step and would equate that with personal failure.

She will return here in her 60’s/70’s after a triumphant term or two as S-G of the UN not because she’s popular (apparently the people at UNHCR hate her guts) but because she plays out the will of her masters. The UNHCR role is a training ground for the S-G. She has powerful supporters Putin being one of the main ones and she knows how to play the dirt to the extreme so I wouldn’t be surprised if she gets some stuff on the EU and the US players when the time comes to make her bid.

I don’t know exactly how it will play out of course, who knows whose going to be in the power roles in say 2014-2020 but one thing I know is that Hulun and her companion H2 have never played a straight bat on anything, ever, and why would those two change a lifetime? (You know who H2 reminds me of? The nanny in Omen.)
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June 21, 2012 7:47pm
mikenmild

Go on LJ, indulge us – who are her ‘masters’?
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June 21, 2012 7:57pm
philu

(interesting line from that link..one where ryall confesses to the bullshit we are being slung..)

“..To damp public opposition, Key said 85 percent to 90 percent of the companies will be owned by New Zealanders on completion of the IPOs.

Overseas investors can build bigger stakes by buying shares in the market after that, State Owned Enterprise Minister Tony Ryall said in a telephone interview…”

..this administration is going to go down as one of the most reviled in our history..

phillip ure whoar.co.nz
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June 21, 2012 7:59pm
nasska

“Whatever happens, the bus cannot drop bellow 90kph, or disaster!”

“Why? Is there a bomb on board?”

“No, it’s just that we’re going through Otara now, and I really don’t want us to slow down!”
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June 21, 2012 8:00pm
Leaping Jimmy

Did you hear on Checkpoint tonight that Obama has been ordered to release details on Fast and Furious. This issue coming now, at this time, could be major. I predicted last October it could be the issue that sees Obama lose the presidency. We’ll see, but it sure as hell has the same amount of potential legs as the Lewinsky scandal, more probably. It just depends on how the people who control the media want to play it, and they take their instructions from the people who decide who gets to be the next Pres.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/10/general_debate_2_october_2011.html#comment-884279

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2522622/vote-to-hold-us-attorney-general-in-contempt.asx

http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-sues-atf-for-fast-and-furious-records-detailing-communications-between-atf-and-obama-white-house-official/

Go on LJ, indulge us – who are her ‘masters’?

Shape shifting lizards from the fourth dimension disguised as the Royal Family and various politicians and celebrities, mm. Everyone knows that. Crikey. What are ya, thick or something?
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June 21, 2012 8:01pm
mikenmild

I thought you’d just go on about Jews and Masons.
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June 21, 2012 8:12pm
chiz

Carbon capture and storage schemes may trigger earthquakes.
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June 21, 2012 8:12pm
philu

john key is our herbert hoover,,,

“..he promoted partnerships between government and business under the rubric “economic modernization”.

In the presidential election of 1928, Hoover easily won the Republican nomination, despite having no previous elected-office experience. ..

..America was prosperous and optimistic at the time – leading to a landslide victory for Hoover over Democrat Al Smith.

Hoover, a trained engineer, believed strongly in the Efficiency Movement, which held that the government and the economy were riddled with inefficiency and waste-and could be improved by experts who could identify the problems and solve them.

He also believed in the importance of volunteerism and the role of individuals in playing a role in American society and the economy.

,..the Wall Street Crash of 1929 struck less than eight months after he took office.. .

.. These initiatives did not produce economic recovery during his term ..

..The consensus among historians is that Hoover’s defeat in the 1932 election was caused primarily by failure to end the downward economic spiral.

As a result of these factors, Hoover is ranked poorly among US Presidents…”

how is that not key..?…and history repeating..?

phillip ure whoar.co.nz
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June 21, 2012 8:25pm
Leaping Jimmy

I thought you’d just go on about Jews and Masons.

Tell me mm, do you understand the difference between a zionist like Sharon, a zionist like Peres and a zionist like Rothschild?

Hint: one of them is a true Israeli patriot and the other two merely front as zionists simply to fool the useful idiots who don’t understand what the fuck is going on.

Also, alleging it’s “the Masons” is about as informative as alleging it’s “the Christians.” Anyone who understands anything knows the masonic symbolism is at the seat of the power but most masons, 99.9999999999999% of them think its just about Hiram Abiff and that’s the end of the secrets. Masonry is everywhere but its not the masonry that’s interesting, its the occultic links to the ancient egyption mystery religions which date back to Solomon which is the important and relevant thing to the question. It is all around you, whether or not you know it. Why for instance is Washington laid out in masonic patterns, what about the symbols in The City and the Vatican. Is that all accidental?

In order to conclude that question one way or the other, you need to know what the symbols are and what they mean, I would have thought. Pretending they don’t even exist because, in your opinion, the world could not possibly work like that, and therefore not even bothering to begin to understand their meaning, is a rather childish idiotic and simplistic ostrich-like view, in my opinion. But OTY, and GL, either way.
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June 21, 2012 8:27pm
mikenmild

Ha ha. More please, this is great stuff. And are Helen Clark’s masters zionists or masons, or both?
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June 21, 2012 8:34pm
cha

The Juice Mikey, always the Juice….and Barbara Bush’s dad.
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June 21, 2012 8:39pm
Leaping Jimmy

mm, you didn’t answer my first question, what’s the difference between those three zionists? What’s the matter, is it too difficult for you? Ok then, re: the other stuff, all you have to do is look at the pictures. Do pictures lie?

http://www.google.co.nz/search?aq=1&oq=masonic+architecture+&sugexp=chrome,mod=13&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=masonic+architecture+in+washington+dc

Until you can understand the pictures, there’s no point in explaining more detailed things like who Hulun might report to, you just wouldn’t understand.
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June 21, 2012 8:41pm
labours a joke

“this administration is going to go down as one of the most reviled in our history”

You see phool , smoking dope fucks ya memory and you have just proven that. HC and her corrupt , bent , vile group of slime won that title. Do keep up phool.
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June 21, 2012 8:42pm
thedavincimode

whether Professor Sir Geoffrey was a naive dickhead

CHECK.
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June 21, 2012 8:48pm
philu

clark made some mistakes..

..but this government is really fucking over the county..

..we are now one of the most unequal countries in the world..

..rampant/growing child/general poverty/third world diseases..

..and our richest increased their personal wealth by 20% in the last year…

..and now key is going to give them our energy companies..to further increase that wealth of the very richest…

..the policies from this government aren’t economic policies…they are ideology/class-theft..

..and national will be in opposition forever…after doing all this..

…and given the ancient membership…

..this could well be the death rattle for national..

..with key its’ undertaker…

phillip ure whoar.co.nz
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June 21, 2012 8:51pm
thedavincimode

laj

Why do you even address him? If there’s one thing that I simply can’t abide, it’s a xenophobic racist. The xenophobic racist leech is no better than the dodgey Peters. I’ve decided to put him on my shitlist. As far as I’m concerned, we aren’t talking.
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June 21, 2012 8:52pm
cha

Have a read LJ.

http://themonkeycage.org/blog/2012/06/20/executive-privileges/
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June 21, 2012 8:53pm
labours a joke

Fair call davinci…consider yourself shitwiped phool…( and include that dirty homosexual scottchris )
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June 21, 2012 8:55pm
mikenmild

It seems unlikely that the Obama administration has much to fear from further investigation of ‘Fast and Furious’.
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June 21, 2012 8:55pm
philu

“..As far as I’m concerned, we aren’t talking…”

promises..promises…

phillip ure whoar.co.nz
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June 21, 2012 8:56pm
cha

And then there’s the dodgy accuser.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/07/02/MN153221.DTL&ao=all

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/23/us/california-recall-backer-feels-heat.html?pagewanted=print&src=pm
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June 21, 2012 9:03pm
mikenmild

Oh yes, the loathsome Issa. Quite a guy…
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June 21, 2012 9:06pm
tom hunter

This is like living through the last term of Helen Clark. When the next GOP administration pulls the same stunts I’ll call “karma” and be able to ignore all the outrageously outraged outrage from the likes of Cha and MM.

Cool.
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June 21, 2012 9:07pm
Steve (North Shore)

12,994 means six more wanks to make 13,000
What a tosser
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June 21, 2012 9:11pm
mikenmild

Ha ha tom. So you’re with LJ and this one will bring down Obama?
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June 21, 2012 9:12pm
cha

Cmon Tom, it’s a sideshow packaged like a daytime soap. May the best lawyer win.
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June 21, 2012 9:12pm
Weihana

“Did you hear on Checkpoint tonight that Obama has been ordered to release details on Fast and Furious.”

Congress cannot order the President to release privileged documents. The President is not subservient to Congress, he is their equal in power. Only the courts can remove executive privilege.

Also, this is the first time Obama has asserted executive privilege. Since Reagan it has been used 24 times. The Deputy Attorney General has noted:

“The Department has substantially complied with the outstanding subpoena. The documents responsive to the remaining subpoena items pertain to sensitive law enforcement activities, including ongoing criminal investigations and prosecutions, or were generated by Department officials in the course of responding to congressional investigations or media inquiries about this matter that are generally not appropriate for disclosure.”

…

“The legal basis for the President’s assertion of executive privilege is set forth in the enclosed letter to the President from the Attorney General. In brief, the compelled production to Congress of these internal Executive Branch documents generated in the course of the deliberative process concerning the Department’s response to congressional oversight and related media inquiries would have significant, damaging consequences. As I explained at our meeting yesterday, it would inhibit the candor of such Executive Branch deliberations in the future and significantly impair the Executive Branch’s ability to respond independently and effectively to congressional oversight. Such compelled disclosure would be inconsistent with the separation of powers established in the Constitution and would potentially create an imbalance in the relationship between these two.co-equal branches of the Government.”

The congressional oversight committee has been provided with a wealth of information (over 7 thousand pages worth) relating to the scandal including all internal documents relating to the February 4 letter from the Assistant Attorney General.

Is there any actual evidence of a high-level scandal, or is it sufficient to make unreasonable requests from the executive branch in order to engineer the appearance of something untoward for the purpose of political gain?

As an aside, the real scandal here is the average idiotic American who still believes the war on Mexican drug cartels is a good idea. How many Republicans, do you suppose, would support an end to this ridiculous and immoral war?

Ron Paul 2016! 😉
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June 21, 2012 9:15pm
cha

btw, oh that our own parliamentarians were subject to the same.
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June 21, 2012 9:16pm
tom hunter

Sure milky – but you won’t utter the word “loathsome” for Eric Holder. Checked out his role in the pardoning of Marc Rich?

Oh I forgot. You don’t know much about Barack Obama – but you know enough about the relatively obscure Issa to render that verdict. Cute game.
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June 21, 2012 9:18pm
mikenmild

So, what do you admire most about Issa?
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June 21, 2012 9:20pm
Leaping Jimmy

So you’re with LJ and this one will bring down Obama?

mm I do wish you would read what my predictions say rather than making them up yourself. For your benefit this is what I said last October:

My prediction is: Fast and Furious will see Obama play the race card, if his masters decide he’s useful enough to have another term. If they don’t, he won’t and he’ll lose, because of Fast and Furious. There’s a lot of bad karma round Obama right now, so IMO that calculation is still underway.

I’ve bolded the qualifiers so you understand them, this time.

So what I’m saying is that if the Fast and Furious story breaks, as it just has, into the national media, then Obama’s only choice is to play the race card that he has been preparing for around 12 months and which I’ve been warning you about, here, for around about that length of time.

That’s provided Obama’s masters tell him that he’s allowed to win himself a second term.

If Obama’s master’s don’t tell him that, then I don’t think he will play the race card, and Fast and Furious will be the downfall scandal and allows the Romney/Paul ticket to come home.

That’s what I said and as you can see, I’m not saying Fast and Furious will bring down Obama, at all. Next time, would be good if you read what I say. It does become a bit tiresome.

I have to say, I’m not that confident of that prediction BTW – Obama’s the sort of nasty little prick who’ll do a samson and try to pull the house down by playing the race card, regardless of what his master’s voice is.
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June 21, 2012 9:25pm
tom hunter

What do you admire most about Holder?
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June 21, 2012 9:27pm
mikenmild

Are Obama’s masters the same one that are controlling Helen Clark? Are they ALL masons?
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June 21, 2012 9:28pm
tom hunter

Cha – what have I told you about watching NBC! Still, I have to love the whole spin that it’s all just partisan bickering.

Cmon yourself. You’re trying to tell me that if this was a GOP administration running a program that deliberately walked thousands of weapons into the hand of Mexican drug gangs – with none of the usual tracking, observation and immediate arrest that usually accompanies the standard tracing of illegal material into the hands of criminals – that it would not have been getting front-page 24/7 treatement from the NYT and WaPo? Even the Mexican government are pissed, as they should be.

In fact, by the standards of Watergate and Iran-Contra, this should be a full-blown scandal – but it won’t be.

Oh well, like public election financing, calling for Guantanamo Bay to be closed, the obscenity of military tribunals and drone assassinations and the disgustingly naked use of executive orders, this too shall pass.
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June 21, 2012 9:32pm
Weihana

“Even the Mexican government are pissed, as they should be.”

Oh NOW they are pissed. Never mind the fact that they are complicit in an ongoing war that has already resulted in tens of thousands of deaths. But NOW they are pissed that the US ran a flawed (and stupid) campaign with the aim of tracking high-level cartel members. FFS, they should drop the sanctimonious bullshit and start talking real solutions and demanding the US to end the damn war.
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June 21, 2012 9:50pm
Griff

http://www.stuff.co.nz/science/7137126/Intelligence-genes-network-identified

“Intelligence runs in families, but although scientists have identified about 20 genetic variants associated with intelligence, each accounts for just one percent of the variation in IQ scores.

Because the effects of these genes on the brain are so subtle, neurologist Paul Thompson of the University of California devised a new large-scale strategy for tackling the problem.

In 2009, he co-founded the Enigma Network, an international consortium of researchers who combine brain scanning and genetic data to study brain structure and function.

Earlier this year, Thompson and his colleagues reported that they had identified genetic variants associated with head size and the volume of the hippocampus, a brain structure that is crucial for learning and memory.”

Any one keen for the breeding of a super race 🙂
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June 21, 2012 9:53pm
cha

Oh well, like public election financing, calling for Guantanamo Bay to be closed, the obscenity of military tribunals and drone assassinations and the disgustingly naked use of executive orders, this too shall pass.

Aye Tom and I’ve gone from being optimistic about the possibilities to I really don’t give a fuck.
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June 21, 2012 9:56pm
tom hunter

Well that’s fair enough Cha. I’m not far from that myself – and if Romney wins and the US is still running trillion dollar plus deficits in 2014 I’ll be right there with you in mourning the death of hope and change – just for entirely different reasons.
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June 21, 2012 10:03pm
calendar girl

“The potential for jokes of the form “Your Momma’s so fat, ____” are limited only by your imagination…””

Brave RRM launches a cheap ad hom attack at a woman. Isn’t he still the great wit around here!
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June 21, 2012 10:47pm
freemark

http://youtu.be/-p3wTXqZ-mk

Well, this link has everything that seems to concern KiwiBloggers.
A really interesting watch for an hour, NZ gets a mention in the middle somewhere too.
Enjoy, I did, great food for thought.
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June 21, 2012 11:38pm

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