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May 24, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 24 May 2012

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Yvette

Dotcom
High Court Chief Justice Helen Winkelmann has told the Attorney-General’s lawyer, Mike Ruffin, he has until Monday to explain why FBI agents were allowed to take 135 cloned computer and data storage devices to the United States …
The revelation is the latest embarrassment for the Crown, which has already been exposed for fumbling parts of the case. It used the wrong law to get a court order to seize Dotcom’s assets – an error which contributed to the police having to offer an undertaking of liability. There had earlier been discontent over the size, scale and style of the police raid which Davison has said will form a complaint to the Independent Police Conduct Authority.
– http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10808032

As this may turn to custard, what is ‘an undertaking of liability’?
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May 24, 2012 8:01am
krazykiwi

A good thing. Something definitely squiffy in here:

Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg sued by shareholders over IPO

Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg has been sued by the social media network’s shareholders over its disastrous IPO.

The lawsuit accuses Mr Zuckerberg, Facebook and several banks led by Morgan Stanley of hiding the company’s weakened growth forecasts ahead of its $16bn initial public offering.

The defendants are claimed to have concealed from investors during the IPO marketing process “a severe and pronounced reduction” in Facebook revenue growth forecasts.

The news comes as Morgan Stanley, the bank in charge of the IPO, is being investigated over possible securites fraud.

The US bank has been accused of failing to warn smaller investors of a more negative assessment of Facebook’s future profits.

It is claimed that several major investors had been pre-warned that a Morgan Stanley analyst had cut the amount of money he expected Facebook to make.

Doesn’t matter wether is thieving socialists with their hand in my pocket on payday, or despicable robber barons defrauding my investments. They should all hang high.
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May 24, 2012 8:01am
Pete George

There was good coverage of the Kim Dotcom case on TV3 last night too. Dotcom’s lawyer seemed dignified but ropeable, he claimed the Dotcom case “totally off the rails”.

I agree, this case gets more disturbing the more I see of it.
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May 24, 2012 8:03am
philu

http://whoar.co.nz/2012/society-the-only-way-is-finland/

“…America may once have been the Land of Opportunity, but thanks to its rising levels of inequality – not to mention the nightmarish visa restrictions – our political class now has another destination in mind.

“If you want the American Dream,” Ed Miliband says, “go to Finland.”

This week, the Labour leader told a conference on social mobility that “if you are born poor in a more equal society like Finland, Norway or Denmark –

– then you have a better chance of moving into a good job than if you are born poor in the United States”.

Finland may feature consistently in the world suicide rate top 20 – but according to the recent UN World Happiness Report, it’s actually the second-”happiest” country in the world (after nearby Denmark) –

– based not only on wealth – but on political freedom – strong social networks – and an absence of corruption.

The 2011 Failed States Index, compiled by Washington think tank the Fund for Peace –

– ranked it the globe’s most “successful” country socially, economically and politically.

Its students are also the best in the West –

– achieving extraordinarily high scores in a triennial survey for the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

According to Anu Partanen, a Finnish journalist writing in The Atlantic: –

– “Decades ago, when the Finnish school system was badly in need of reform –

– the goal of the programme that Finland instituted –

– resulting in so much success today –

– was never excellence.

It was equity.”..”

(cont..)

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 8:05am
joana

It sounds like big money to me Yvette.
On another topic , the fake refugee who had already been granted refugee status in Denmark before he began his serious NZ bludge is getting legal aid for a case against the NBR journo plus another case. He is the guy who up until recently has been receiving 360 a week in sickness benefits even while he was out of the country in Germany. How much has this codger cost the NZ tax payer? How could he be granted refugee status here when he had already had a fair go in another country?
I think this article is in today’s Herald.
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May 24, 2012 8:08am
JeffW

Is there a list of Auckland Councillors who voted for Looney Len’s 10 year plan to tax us to death? We need to target them at the next local body election.
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May 24, 2012 8:09am
peterwn

JeffW – good, this may encourage Auckland based companies to regionalise their activities. TVNZ for example could always return to Avalon near Wellington.
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May 24, 2012 8:13am
peterwn

Seema Trevor Mallard is still successfully evading service. It is possible but seems unlikely that he has been served but is shutting up about it.
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May 24, 2012 8:15am
philu

http://whoar.co.nz/2012/paul-krugman-we-could-end-this-depression-right-now/

“…The Nobel laureate talks about Washington, Europe –

– and the bizarre alternate universe inhabited by deficit fear-mongering media and political elites…”

(cont..)

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 8:21am
Yvette

TVNZ for example could always return to Avalon near Wellington.
Has Avalon not been sold already?
And if you understood why television head office moved to Auckland, you would understand why it would not move back again.
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May 24, 2012 8:22am
Keeping Stock

Let’s play Spot the Difference:

April 2008 – Shane Jones refuses to overturn Immigration NZ’s decision to deport a young woman back to Iran, despite the fact that she fears for her life having converted to Christianity.

August 2008 – Shane Jones overturns the recommendation of DIA officials, and grants NZ citizenship to Bill Liu on “humanitarian grounds”, despite there being no evidence that Liu was in immediate danger of being removed from New Zealand.

http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/we-cant-help-but-wonder_24.html

Little wonder that David Shearer has restricted the Auditor-General to inquiring only into the process that Shane Jones follwed with regard to Bill Liu, and not the process itself. This is shaping up to be Ingram V2.1
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May 24, 2012 8:26am
Scott Chris

Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg has been sued by the social media network’s shareholders over its disastrous IPO.

Tough titty. There was a lot of talk in the financial news media before the float about facebook’s actual worth compared with the pricetag of the IPO so anyone who chose to speculate on that pre-fabricated bubble made a risky decision.

In better times the bubble may have lasted or even grown – temporarily. Them’s the breaks.

Caveat emptor.
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May 24, 2012 8:44am
Pete George

KS – another (major) inconsistency you’ve pointed out doesn’t help Jone’s already shaky case. Shearer may have sort done enough to keep himself at enough of a distance, but Jones is going to have trouble surviving this.

And – as someone tweeted yesterday – what’s the best way for Labour to put the heat on the Government on budget day? Drawing attention highlighting their own troublesome distraction isn’t the grandest plan.
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May 24, 2012 8:47am
graham

re Facebook – who remembers the “Dot.com bubble” in the late nineties? Everybody jumped on the bandwagon, convinced that the Internet was magic and any idea, no matter how loopy, could make money as long as you were on the Net. Only to see the vast majority fail spectacularly.

Where many of them failed was in not having a sound business model to back up the wonderful ideas.
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May 24, 2012 8:48am
Pete George

graham – the current FB attention is similar to the dot.com (non-Kim) obsession – all eyes on making a quick buck rather than productiveness and investing for term earnings.

Facebook dropping now will hurt some speculators. For people interested in actual investments the day after IPO price is irrelevant.
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May 24, 2012 8:53am
Longknives

Re Facebook- I put ten bucks on New South Wales to win the State of Origin opener last night.. they didn’t.
Can I now sue Ricky Stuart? Or even the TAB??
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May 24, 2012 8:54am
joana

Paki doctor who tipped off US on bin Laden gets 33 years hard labour. Winds of jihad.
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May 24, 2012 8:54am
Pete George

Talking of gambling, there still seem to be a few who think a budget is a lottery draw and they hope to win a prize. In reality it’s an adjustment of numbers that should affect most of us a little at the most.
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May 24, 2012 9:05am
Yvette

An impression – Despondent sounding Jones may quit altogether
Radio Live interview –
http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Shane-Jones-says-its-a-case-of-wait-and-see-over-his-political-career/tabid/506/articleID/28180/Default.aspx
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May 24, 2012 9:11am
adze

Those who are rubbing their hands with schadenfreude over the FB IPO outcome – I would also be pissed off if insider information was given to “preferred customers” too. It’s a corruption of the market and feeds into middle class suspicions about stock markets in general: that unless you’re in the big boys club you’re just fresh meat. This is undesirable because it encourages small investors to further inflate property prices instead of putting their capital into productive investment.
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May 24, 2012 9:12am
Carlos

The Herald is too lazy to even spell check the titles of its articles: “Activists fight MORTHLAND mining”

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10807986
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May 24, 2012 9:17am
philu

“..Tough titty. ..”

i think that what is disturbing some…is that zuckerberg…like the other insiders given ‘the word’..

..sold his shares at the top…he cashed up/in..then they plunged…

..it reeks…this one..

..the mug-punters have been taken for a ride/suckered..again..

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 9:26am
kowtow

keeping stock and Iranian convert

Has there ever been any follow up by our brave ,independant media on the Iranian woman? Was she sent back? Was she executed? Does any one care?

Our media seem fixated on the Algerian Islamist who broke the law entering NZ and this fellow has been turned into a NZ celebrity.

What of that woman?

pg I’m delighted to see you are persuaded on the merits of complex legal cases by the appearance and demeanour of the legal professionals involved. Your sophistication is astounding………..
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May 24, 2012 9:34am
graham

@ adze: I’m certainly not laughing and sniggering about the FB IPO – I’m guessing a lot of small time investors will have been caught out by this, and they are the ones who stand to lose most. In the same way a lot of people get suckered by the whole “You CAN’T LOSE with property, just come to one of our massively overpriced seminars and we’ll happily take your money and teach you how to run huge risks and take out millions of dollars worth of mortgage so you can’t sleep at night worrying if you’re going to be able to pay it all back …”

Carlos: My pet hate is bad spelling. Saw something on a very well-known website just a few weeks ago along the lines of “A soccer hooligan gets taught a lesson, this would of hurt”. NO NO NO!!! It’s not “would of” you moron, it’s “would’ve” as in short for “would have”.
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May 24, 2012 9:37am
Paulus

Is it possible that the Senior Immigration Official who advised Shane Jones about Bill Liu being executed back in China was Mary Ann Thompson (ex Helen Clark’s office and Immigration top official) ?
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May 24, 2012 9:51am
Pete George

pg I’m delighted to see you are persuaded on the merits of complex legal cases by the appearance and demeanour of the legal professionals involved. Your sophistication is astounding………..

Body language can be important. In this case it added thoughtful weight to a ton of concerns over the Dotcom case.
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May 24, 2012 9:57am
Nookin

“Let’s play Spot the Difference:”

Ooooh, that’s a hard one. Is it because Jones is sexist. Maybe not.

Maybe he doesn’t like Christians?

Or did he dislike the China Free Trade Agreement and want to stick it to the Chinese Government. Maybe that’s it.

Another possibility arises, though. I cannot be stuffed looking at the list of donors to the labour party coffers at the time. Is it possible that the Iranian lady failed to stump up enough/anything towards Labour’s re-election campaign? Has anyone thought of that possibility? Could be worth looking into!
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May 24, 2012 9:59am
cows4me

While many will take a bath with the overvalued FB shares I’m picking as usual the banks or large investors will have the last laugh. What will happen. So far many large investors have dumped their FB shares and so have pocketed many millions of suckers dollars. In a few months time when the price has totally collapsed these same large investing institutions will buy FB shares. The beauty is they make a tidy profit now and pay the real share price later, the house always wins. Is it any wonder the share market is seen with some disdain by mum & dad investors.
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May 24, 2012 10:02am
graham

cows4me: All true, but the share market is still okay for mum & dad investors, as long as you don’t get sucked into the hype and do your homework.

My wife was a share registrar back in the day, and always said you don’t invest money if you can’t afford to lose it. The number of people who mortgaged themselves to the hilt in order to invest on the share market, just before the share market crash in ’87, had her shaking her head.
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May 24, 2012 10:07am
cows4me

Yeah graham, I remember my mother in 87 telling me to get into the share market, huge profits to be made, I just laughed. At the time any spare money I had was spent on buying a herd. Suffice to say my mother never spoke about shares again. I guess she was luckier then many, mum and dad still had a farm to sell, which along with the bloody bank I brought over many years and are still paying for. We of course have now put it into a family trust but that’s another story.
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May 24, 2012 10:34am
David Garrett

PG: providing “thoughtful weight” via his body langueage is partly why Paul Davison is able to charge $1000 an hour…or $2000 if its a case he doesn’t really want to do…
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May 24, 2012 10:50am
Scott Chris

i think that what is disturbing some…is that zuckerberg…like the other insiders given ‘the word’

Yes, I can see that but the point is, if smaller investors want to play with the sharks, they shouldn’t be surprised when they get eaten.

[adze] I would also be pissed off if insider information was given to “preferred customers” too. It’s a corruption of the market and feeds into middle class suspicions about stock markets in general: that unless you’re in the big boys club you’re just fresh meat. This is undesirable because it encourages small investors to further inflate property prices instead of putting their capital into productive investment.

Okay, so how do you stop it? More regulation? Try getting that past the Republicans (or the lobby lackey Democrats for that matter). Your best bet it to invest your money in the kind of mutual fund large enough to be considered important. Of course the middleman must take his cut so the returns won’t be quite as good.
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May 24, 2012 11:02am
adze

Scott,
I doubt it’ll ever be able to be “stopped” only discouraged, as with any other crime. Yeah maybe more regulation. I wouldn’t look for solutions out of the American political system; too many fingers in too many pies. That isn’t a reason to stop rattling cages though.
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May 24, 2012 11:15am
virtualmark

I would also be pissed off if insider information was given to “preferred customers” too

I’d be very surprised if that happened. The key thing to consider is the difference between valuation (what Facebook is notionally truly worth) and pricing (what people are/were prepared to pay for its shares).

I’ve not done the numbers myself, but people I respect who have done the numbers suggest high-20’s a share for Facebook. I think it’s quite possible Morgan Stanley ended up debating valuation with some large & smart investors, and may at that point have clarified the revenue forecasts needed to be trimmed back.

But that really had no influence on how the shares were priced – that was all down to how much people would pay for a Facebook share. It’s primarily a function of supply & demand. Investors were prepared to pay more than the shares were intrinsically worth. Not rational. But not criminal either.
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May 24, 2012 11:15am
Luc Hansen

joana (1,237) Says:
May 24th, 2012 at 8:54 am

Paki doctor who tipped off US on bin Laden gets 33 years hard labour. Winds of jihad.

Treason is a serious offence. It’s no more than what the US would do if the positions were reversed, and possibly a lot less.
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May 24, 2012 11:22am
Pete George

Granny mixes her Scottish and German. Rare whisky stolen – and it wasn’t German!

I hope they know their whisky from their kirschwasser up there.
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May 24, 2012 11:24am
Luc Hansen

Murray Shewin on RNZ, interviewed by Kathryn Ryan on the budget prospects.

Unfortunately, he commented on “misinformation” abounding about National’s tax cuts for the rich, but that was as far as that aspect went as it was not returned to, which is a shame. Maybe Kathryn can get him back.

But he did trot out one tired old myth, that the Douglas/Richardson reforms set us on a new and upward growth path for the next 20 years or so, when, in fact, as Brian Easton pointed out only yesterday (The Panel), the economy, after taking the reforms on the chin and stagnating for a while, simply resumed it’s long run growth rate. Hardly a stunning success, I would have thought.

That’s not to say reforms shouldn’t have happened, but the Douglas/Richardson scorched earth policy, in some countries, would have seen these two strung up from the nearest lamp post.

Anyway, maybe just sticking to our knitting and living within our long run growth rate ain’t such a bad thing when we look at the fate of those countries who suddenly burst into brave new territory then crashed and burned – am I the only one who remembers Key’s love affair with Ireland when he first entered politics?
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May 24, 2012 11:33am
adze

Virtualmark;
Sure, if people don’t do their homework that’s fine; I was referring to a claim in the media that some information relevant to valuation of the shares was disclosed to a small set of individuals and not others. If that’s not the case, no problem.
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May 24, 2012 11:35am
virtualmark

adze,

Yes, if that took place then it’s inappropriate. And hard to understand given the internet lets you quickly & cheaply publish information to a huge audience. But I’m not sure it would have materially changed the demand for FB shares, so the IPO would probably have still got away at $38 a share.
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May 24, 2012 12:11pm
Zapper

Tame Iti jailed for 2 years. Good to see some punishment for criminal activities
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May 24, 2012 12:16pm
hmmokrightitis

Zapper,

+1. Lying scumbags caught and tried to lie their way out of it, sent to prison. A judge who owns a pair, what a rare delight.

Thank you Justice Hansen.
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May 24, 2012 12:24pm
Colville

Two of the ‘Urewera Four’ – Tame Iti and Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara – have been jailed for two and a half years.

Good Job.

Pity that “Yong Ming Yan” got away with the fraud.
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May 24, 2012 12:30pm
Viking2

So the chinaman has walked and iti and his mate get jail.

Won’t Labour crow like anything.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10808099

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10808057
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May 24, 2012 12:31pm
Keeping Stock

Labour can’t crow over Tame Iti Viking2. Don’t forget that the Urewera raids happened in 2007 when Helen Clark was the PM and Howard Broad was the Police Commissioner. And the law that they should have been tried under but which was a stuff-up was the Terrorism Suppression Act 2002, passed under Helen Clark’s leadership. That is where the blame for this fiasco lies.
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May 24, 2012 12:35pm
Carlos

@ graham

More great spelling in the Herald on the Urerewa Four sentencing just now.

“Tame Iti and Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara were sentenced today in TE High Court at Auckland to two and half years behind bars, after being found guilty of six firearms charges and not guilty of four.”

“Urs Signer and Emily Bailey were sentenced to nine months home detention after their sentencings were temporarily adjourned for probation reports on WEATHER their addresses in the settlement of Parihaka in Taranaki were suitable.”
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May 24, 2012 12:36pm
F E Smith

Re the latest Dotcom stuff-up:

The biggest mistake made by Dotcom’s counsel was accepting anything said by Anne Toohey as being trustworthy. That prosecutor exemplifies the high-handed, condescending, self-righteous attitude of so many Crown prosecutors these days. Plus, you just cannot trust her. If Toohey was a part of the evidence handover, then she has really landed her colleague in the soup, poor bloke. I bet the Chief High Court Judge was furious!

The problem is, and the Crown knows this, what’s done is done and there ain’t too much that can be done to fix it. Especially given the very wide latitude US investigators are allowed by their Courts when it comes to obtaining evidence.
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May 24, 2012 12:41pm
David Garrett

FES: NOW I understand why you post here under another name! But that’s a very serious allegation to make…if you have grounds for it, shouldnt you make a complaint to the Law Society? You know, that totally unbiased fair minded upholder of standards for the legal profession?
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May 24, 2012 12:55pm
kowtow

Luc Hansen defends the indefensible ( but only when a Muslim state is involved).

Treason may be a serious offence but when the state engages in kangaroo (or in this case camel) courts then serious questions arise .Is Pakistan a member of the UN and Commonwealth? If yes, it shouldn’t be.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2012/05/2012523111832779910.html
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May 24, 2012 12:55pm
adze

Not sure how informing on Bin Laden’s whereabouts is treasonous anyway, if (as claimed) Pakistan is an ally on the “war against terror”.
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May 24, 2012 1:06pm
slijmbal

on FB

– Zuckerberg didn’t get out at the top as someone suggested – he still owns the vast bulk of the shares and will benefit or suffer as the share prices changes. Then again the difference between $10bn and $13bn (or whatever it is) is a problem anyone would like to have

– the problem of insider information is a huge one all over the world, it frequently occurs and I wish it was properly prosecuted. The US is better than NZ in this of prosecutions or class actions. Invariably share prices move prior to relevant official information being released. There have been numerous analyses of this across multiple sharemarkets and it is consistent.

– there were something like 30+ underwriters on the IPO and considering the underwriters backed off supporting the share price there is a distinct possibility several are underwater if they ended up holding shares.

– the IPO was unusual in that control was given to a single bank and they got greedy and overdid the maximisation of price aspects. One should always leave a little in the price so that there is a gain for those in the IPO as it makes a huge difference to market sentiment.
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May 24, 2012 1:18pm
trout

@Luc H I know it is fashionable for the left (of which Easton is a card holding life member) to decry the Richardson/Douglas policies but bear in mind that it was these policies that weaned famers off subsidies (compare Europe right now) and forced them to foot it in a global economy. And lest you forget it is the farmers that are supporting NZ’s lifestyle right now; not the legions of Kiwis on the state tit.
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May 24, 2012 1:21pm
David Garrett

Luc: Please list the major reforms to the NZ economy which Douglas put in place that a later Labour government reversed: GST? Subsidies for manufacturers? Tarriff barriers? floating exchange rate? Import licences?

No rhetoric Luc, just a list of any of the above (or any others you can think of yourself) that Douglas did and Labour reversed (terrible grammar, but that make it very clear)
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May 24, 2012 1:26pm
philu

“.- Zuckerberg didn’t get out at the top as someone suggested –”

yes he did..

http://whoar.co.nz/2012/10-reasons-to-be-suspicious-about-wall-streets-facebook-fiasco/

“..Zuckerberg promptly sold his 30.2 million shares – netting a quick billion dollars and change.

That tells you what he thinks of this investment…”

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 1:43pm
slijmbal

“..Zuckerberg promptly sold his 30.2 million shares – netting a quick billion dollars and change.

That tells you what he thinks of this investment…”

considering Zuckerburg owned ~ 25% of the company worth close to $100bn he sold out ~4% of his holding. He got some cash – a lot of cash

That is not ‘getting out at the top’ He still has ~ $20bn at risk. In terms of overall wealth selling now a small proportion of his shares doesn’t make that much of a difference unless FB completely tanks.
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May 24, 2012 1:56pm
dime

phil – youre an idiot.

““..Zuckerberg promptly sold his 30.2 million shares – netting a quick billion dollars and change.

That tells you what he thinks of this investment”

That was his plan all along. He never hid the fact that he would cash out a billion or so. why the fuck wouldnt he?

Why would he keep 99% of his capital in facebook?

Bill Gates sells about 3 million microsoft shares a month. he must think microsoft is shit… eh???
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May 24, 2012 2:08pm
DJP6-25

F E Smith 12:41 pm. Let’s hope kimdotcom can hold out until January 21st 2013. I don’t think a Romney appointed Attorney General will be very interested in carrying water for Hollywood. So the case and the SOPA legislation will die a natural death.

cheers

David Prosser
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May 24, 2012 2:29pm
lastmanstanding

Some random points.

At some point sooner rather than later most Gen X and Y are gonna wake up to the so called social media FB Twitter etc and realise they have been suckered into giving away their privacy and want to reclaim it.

The Kim Dotcom case is making the authorities involved look like a bunch of Keystone Kops. Talk about bozos. I expect Helen Winkelmann to throw the case out if they stuff up again.
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May 24, 2012 2:31pm
philu

“..unless FB completely tanks…”

pre-cise-ly…

all it will take is a better model to hit the market…

bebo..?…anyone..?

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 2:46pm
dime

Facebook wont tank.

Its too ingrained now.

All ages use it.

People use Facebook like a big ass scrapbook. They have years worth of pics and time line garbage on there. Plus if you move to another site, you then have to wait for everyone else to move

FB needs to crack mobile and make money of it. then they are laughing.
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May 24, 2012 2:52pm
philu

“..Facebook wont tank…”

“..the titanic won’t sink..”

(such a fatuous absolute..)

..i actually think facebook is a mess..a swamp..and i just can’t be fucked…

..i looked yesterday..and there are pages of people wanting to be my ‘friend’..

..and i know it’s a cliche/given..but i know none of them..

..and in fact..found all their smiling faces quite daunting..

..and i am sure they are all lovely people..but y’know..!

..(it kinda almost made me want to go and hide behind the couch..)

..and i repeat..when a better/more efficient model comes along…

..people will flock to that..

(i repeat:..’bebo..?..anyone..?..)

..as facebook did to bebo..

..so will be done to facebook..

..it’s called progress..

(and just returning to yr benchmark-setting fatuous claim about facebook…

..are you seriously claiming that..?

..you wouldn’t want to rethink that..?)

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 3:02pm
graham

Bebo?

After a peak in UK traffic in the middle of 2007, Myspace and Bebo saw a steady fall from about 1.5% of web use to less than 0.2% in 2010. Conversely, Facebook, who in mid 2007 were at roughly that same 1.5% position of UK web use, went to a position of commanding somewhere in the region of 6.22% of UK traffic in 2010.

Bebo has had, what, seven years to overtake Facebook? I suppose people might start ‘flocking’ to it … eventually … maybe …
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May 24, 2012 3:17pm
F E Smith

David G,

Yeah, sometimes I get a bit carried away and actually say what I think. Usually it is a mistake to do that, so I try to keep a lid on it. A good defence lawyer should be able to keep his emotions in check and not present the full extent of his thoughts.

My apologies to all for that momentary loss of composure.

I just recognise in the Dotcom case all of the worst habits of the Crown, beginning with the manner of the raid on his house, to the appalling way the bail issue was handled, and now this appalling action. I passionately believe that a prosecutor should in fact be a ‘dispassionate minister of justice’ (and I have prosecuted, so I know what I am talking about) rather than someone crusading against crime. That should be left to the police.

Regardless of how badly prosecutors act, in court or out of it, you won’t find many law society complaints about them by defence lawyers. We are considered to be the lowest part of the profession and there is little solidarity shown by our colleagues. And why should they? We make up well under 10% of the profession. I have seen Crown prosecutors lie to the Court (saw a Crown Solicitor do it once) but neither I nor my colleagues (who knew of the lies and were offended by them) have complained. It is just not what we do; we don’t narc.

But I do regret my little outburst. It goes against the defence credo of ‘don’t get upset, just never trust them again’.
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May 24, 2012 3:22pm
philu

do you know anything..graham..?

facebook ate bebo and myspace..

..are you able to grasp/comprehend that fact..?

..so given that fact..

..what the fuck are you on about..?..’bebo overtaking facebook’..?

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 3:28pm
adze

I use Google+ in preference to FB these days, there’s a much greater level of control over interaction with others, and unlike FB it’s actually a great way of finding people with similar interests and sources of information you might not have otherwise have been aware of.
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May 24, 2012 3:37pm
bereal

when you look down your microscope
and you see a disgusting paramecium such as philu lying there in his pond scum,

and that scum loving, single celled , zilch, asks you a smart arse question,

then why would you reply ?
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May 24, 2012 3:40pm
Nookin

“We are considered to be the lowest part of the profession and there is little solidarity shown by our colleagues. ”

I think you do yourself a dis-service there FES. I cannot think of many Crown Solicitors held in high regard over the years. Most of them have been a bit colourless. Some exceptions – but you have to go back a bit. For the most part lawyers are held in high regard if they are good and low regard if they are useless — not because they are defence counsel or otherwise (except through the eyes of Johnboy who loathes any lawyer).

Maybe the problem is the surfeit of useless buggers.
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May 24, 2012 3:58pm
Scott Chris

Personally I think Facebook is an extremely vulnerable product. Like Chrome and Firefox have deposed Explorer, something like Google Plus could easily supplant Facebook over the next five years.

But most likely it will be toppled by a product few of us have heard of yet.

This share float could well be a defining moment – the day Facebook lost its cool tag….
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May 24, 2012 3:59pm
dime

phil – it wont tank imho. sure, there is always a chance but i believe it wont. understand? eh?

facebook is just so much bigger than myspace etc hell myspace was owned by newscorp – what the fuck do they know about social networks??

smartphones werent a big factor when facebook overtook the others either. the ipad didnt exist. people like me use facebook on all those platforms.

something may sit along side facebook but it will take years before anything over takes it.
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May 24, 2012 4:00pm
Nookin

I just read Phil’s response to graham’s comment re bebo. Phil is high again.
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May 24, 2012 4:00pm
philu

“..it will take years before anything over takes it…”

how many years d’yareckon..?..3..?..5…?

..you are actually making the case for it being unsafe..

..being just a bubble..a chimera..

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 4:03pm
F E Smith

Nookin,

I tend to think that Crown Solicitors should be colourless. Most criminal lawyers are very happy with anonymity, we just get annoyed at the low opinion the rest of the profession has of us.

But you have a point about the numbers: 11,000 plus lawyers in NZ is a hell of a lot. That said, most are in general or commercial practice so I suppose there is an element of supply demand there. The number of lawyers willing to accept legal aid has dropped significantly in the last few years, so that side of things means very little to most of the profession.
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May 24, 2012 4:07pm
Nostalgia-NZ

F E Smith

Why don’t defence lawyers complain if Crown Prosecutors lie to the Court, surely that is assisting them. Particularly when you say that defence lawyers have little solidarity but that they don’t narc – all a bit incongruous.
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May 24, 2012 4:20pm
bereal

Shane Jones

a wel known tugger, and a double dipper, and a tripple dipper,
has now reached his level of incompetence. (the Peter principle)

In future it will be interesting to see how, or if, he can achieve in the real world.
My bet is that he can’t.

Unless he can latch upon some Maori tit in the future i would say that he is fucked.

Summary, ‘ A smart arsed bludger who stepped on his prick.’

(got ahead of himself )

Sort of like Donna te wehreere te Whuata.
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May 24, 2012 4:26pm
bhudson

Philu,

You are assuming that Facebook won’t change over time to adapt to competition. google+ arrived with claims it would takeover from FB – FB made some changes to address a potential shortfall in functionality and user appeal. The result is google+ has, to date, been little more than a feeble noise.

FB could decline in the future and be overtaken by another product, but that is no more inherently likely than the resource crisis predicted by Malthus
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May 24, 2012 4:30pm
bereal

Jeez,

it seems there are legions of drongs who look down the microscope and try to have
a conversation with a paramecium they find there,, lying in his scum.

Why is that ?

bhudson, why is that ?
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May 24, 2012 4:35pm
philu

“..FB could decline in the future and be overtaken by another product, but that is no more inherently likely than the resource crisis predicted by Malthus..”

f.f.s..!..

..have a look at the top companies from ten years ago..then now…

..and realise how silly yr ‘this is how it will always be’ claims are…

(remember ‘the age of steam’..?

..they also stared confidently into the future..)

..remember how you used to go to the warehouse..

..and don’t any more..?

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 4:39pm
bhudson

bereal,

Because such nonsense must not be allowed to stand uncorrected.
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May 24, 2012 4:39pm
dime

“..you are actually making the case for it being unsafe..”

only to a paranoid stoner.
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May 24, 2012 4:42pm
philu

so..run out of arguments..?

ad homs all ya got..?

right ho..!..

..we’ll chalk that up as a win-win..eh..?

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 4:47pm
chiz

Dime:People use Facebook like a big ass scrapbook. They have years worth of pics and time line garbage on there. Plus if you move to another site, you then have to wait for everyone else to move

I wonder what happen though if google+ offered some sort of gmail-like ability to automagically suck up content and activity on facebook. Moving to google+ would then be a cinch.
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May 24, 2012 4:49pm
bereal

bhudson
wake up to yourself mate.

when you try (and i can see that it is with honest, genuine intentions ) that you to try to correct
a shithead.

you play into the shitheads hand.

There is only one way to deal with this type of shithead effectively.

Ignore him. or discuss him in the third person.

Note over the years, when a shithead like this is ignored, then his questions become more and more
strident, if he can’t provoke a response he loses it.

He can’t stand being ignored.

What other life does he have ?
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May 24, 2012 4:54pm
Luc Hansen

DPF is busy tonight folks, so it’s a demerit-free night.

pssst…best wait till the sun goes down…

Apologies to Phil for borrowing his ellipses…
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May 24, 2012 4:57pm
philu

my ellipses are open-source…

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 4:59pm
bereal

This type of shithead should be discused, as we discuss a specimen, floating in pond scum,
that we observe under a microscope.

Why would you ask a piece of pond scum what he thought about anything ?
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May 24, 2012 5:00pm
Luc Hansen

David Garrett (1,771) Says:

May 24th, 2012 at 1:26 pm
Luc: Please list the major reforms to the NZ economy which Douglas put in place that a later Labour government reversed: GST? Subsidies for manufacturers? Tarriff barriers? floating exchange rate? Import licences?

No rhetoric Luc, just a list of any of the above (or any others you can think of yourself) that Douglas did and Labour reversed (terrible grammar, but that make it very clear)

David, once again you show lack of basic comprehension skills.

I wrote:

That’s not to say reforms shouldn’t have happened…

And trout, you too.
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May 24, 2012 5:05pm
philu

beryl is kinda tanked early tonight…

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 5:05pm
F E Smith

Nookin,

Sorry, I wasn’t clear: there is a lot of solidarity among defence lawyers, but that solidarity is not generally extended towards us by the rest of the profession. For the most part the defence bar is quite tight knit, although I understand it can get competitive in Auckland.

I was trained old school, where you are happy to work with a given Crown prosecutor, and as long as they behaved honourably and followed the rules then all was well. If they cheated, or played unfairly (and don’t forget that they are supposed to be the epitome of impartiality) then we dealt with it as best we could in the interests of our client, and then never trusted or co-operated with them again. And if anybody asked about them (and that happens a lot among defence lawyers, for example if a Crownie is new to us or we are working with a different Crown Solicitors firm) we tell them what happened and what our view on it is. Sort of an in house knowledge exchange. Very informal, but it does exist.

Why not complain? The Crown Solicitors network is VERY powerful, and has been known to strenuously oppose complaints made against their staff. And they don’t forget. On top of that, there is a strong pro-Crown bias among the judiciary, which most Crownies don’t believe until they get to the defence bar. I think that tempers our actions as well.
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May 24, 2012 5:14pm
bereal

he can’t stand being ignored.

Pull his chain , he can’t help himself.

see 5.05 tonite

pathetic philu.

you must make yourself feel sick.

Pull his chain.
Monkey must speak.

Pavlov had philu figured out ages ago.
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May 24, 2012 5:15pm
bhudson

..have a look at the top companies from ten years ago..then now…

You mean like IBM? Or Apple? Why don’t you check out their share prices?

Wishing something to be true is not enough to make it so Phil.
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May 24, 2012 5:34pm
philu

you really are quite a demented individual..aren’t you beryl..

..mono-obsessive..?

..and you should really get yrslf to a.a…eh..?

..alcohol is not yr friend..

..eh..?

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 5:36pm
philu

ok hudson..facebook will rule forever..

..we are seeing the end of history/progress..eh..?

..how was that ‘steam-age’..eh..?

..a time of wealth..of empire..of power…

..a time that would last forever..eh..?

..how did all that work out..?

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 5:42pm
bhudson

..we are seeing the end of history/progress..eh..?

Only if we are ever stupid enough to vote the Greens onto the Treasury benches Phil
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May 24, 2012 5:46pm
philu

ok..only irrelevant ad homs left in the arsenal..?

..that’s all ya got..?

let’s chalk that up as another ‘win-win’…

..eh..?

phillip ure@hotmail.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 5:49pm
bhudson

No Phil. Your argument was groundless Malthusian scaremongering. Which is to say you had no real argument. But one would have to be an extreme optimist to think you might grasp that
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May 24, 2012 5:50pm
big bruv

Phool

Don’t you have a batch cooking?
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May 24, 2012 5:50pm
Steve (North Shore)

Demerit free night yeah? Righto.

btw open source ellipses? my arse. He gets them delivered by the container load
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May 24, 2012 5:52pm
Scott Chris

You mean like IBM? Or Apple?

I’d say there is a little more spine to such companies than the jellyfish Facebook. In saying that, Hewlett Packard is looking a little dodgy and as for Blackberry….
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May 24, 2012 5:54pm
philu

“..Your argument was groundless Malthusian scaremongering…

no..if my argument can be summarised..it is that change is a constant…

..and i don’t see facebook being immune to that…

..it is a transitory-bubble…

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 24, 2012 5:59pm
bhudson

Scott Chris,

HP might not look so rosy right now, but then again both IBM and Apple had their own versions of ‘near death experiences’ before rebounding to their current statuses. (Which is not to say HP will or won’t. Their decisions in the coming few years will be interesting and telling you would think.)

Right now Facebook is the VHS or iPhone/android of social media. Until a seismic shift in social media there is no reason that FB should lose that grip. There is also no reason why FB could not adapt to such as shift – as IBM and Apple both did in the shifts from centralized computing to client-server, to cloud services and mobility.
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May 24, 2012 6:04pm
bhudson

..it is a transitory-bubble…

Sigh. And there is your Malthusian doom. There is no inherent reason why FB should be transitory. As a company it can continue to innovate and remain relevant – be another long standing company (such as an IBM or an Apple.)

Your position was that it *must* fail – that is Malthusian
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May 24, 2012 6:08pm

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