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May 2, 2012 9:16am by David Farrar

General Debate 02 May 2012

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General Debate

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bereal

Dear mikenmild. @ 6.56
in answer to your last question.

Just the self evident truth that it has not happenend in any western country yet.
Good enough answer for you ?

If that is wrong , then you will be able to cite an example, somewhere on earth, where
muslim immigration into a western culture has resulted in a more prosperous community.

Go for it baby ….
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May 2, 2012 7:07pm
Viking2

Online predictions market iPredict has ACT leader John Banks and National MP Maurice Williamson both being stood down as ministers by May 15, with Banks expected to be sacked or resign altogether by Budget day, May 24.

This is according to the 6800 registered traders on the site which buys and sells ”stocks” in future economic and political events.

IPredict is offering 20 stocks on issues relating to the growing scandal involving political donations from Megaupload founder Kim Dotcom, who is facing extradition to the United States.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/6846846/Banks-Williamson-picked-to-stand-down
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May 2, 2012 7:10pm
Griff

slijmbal
they had to invent dark energy and matter for gods sake! I never trust something invented that by definition cannot be directly measured and tested.

+1

Does not fit my definition of reality either
It would be more logical to assume that the missing matter is in fact with in the event horizons of the black holes that fester in our universe
As inside this horizon the laws of physics in particular e=mc2 no longer applies we have a situation that any thing with in this spatial area is in fact outside of our “space time” and no assurance that the”gravity” of its event horizon are reflected by mass / energy contained or of the properties that light takes within

but this makes me a nut job altie weirdo 😆
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May 2, 2012 7:23pm
slijmbal

@bereal and milkemild

There have been muslims happily living in many communities in the UK for literally centuries. The issue is more about some of the recent brands of islam (and I distinguish this from those who follow muslim religion). I concur with bereal in that allowing this brand of islam in to NZ will be disruptive and damaging as they by definition do not intend to join our society. This is pretty evident from their own message.

The average true muslim is as good a citizen as we wish to have – moral, family oriented etc.

The problem is that these aren’t the muslims we necessarily get.
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May 2, 2012 7:31pm
wiseowl

Well I’m no fan of Wisharts I have none of his books, but at some stage this country needs to wake up to the rort and say ‘enough’.
Is Finlayson right or recorded historical facts ?
So pollies can go on living in denial?

Sure lets all pretend we are not really being led down the garden path, it’s all just a load of fun.

ha ha ha as m&m says.
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May 2, 2012 7:36pm
slijmbal

@Griff – a black hole does follow e=mc squared according to current theory – however it is basically a mathematical step function where there is no real understanding of the conditions of the boundary as identified by the step in the step function. So what happens at the boundary is unknown.

We only know some things about black holes – charge, spin, angular momentum (implied) and mass – from memory so apologies if I missed something.

However, we have never actually seen or measured a black hole and there is still a possibility they don’t exist like many astonomically originated constructs. Astrophysics is seen as less of a real science by many physicists as one cannot actually do experiments – one of the core tools of science.
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May 2, 2012 7:40pm
nasska

Three Religious Truths
1. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
2. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian faith.
3. Muslims do not recognise each other in the liquor store or at the strip club.
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May 2, 2012 7:48pm
nasska

Frank is 85 and lives in a Senior Citizens Home. Every night after dinner
he goes to a secluded garden behind the home to sit and ponder his
accomplishments and long life.

One evening, Mildred, age 82, wanders into the garden. They begin to chat
and before they know it, several hours have passed.

After a short lull in their conversation, Frank turns to Mildred and asks,
“Do you know what I miss most of all?”

She asks, “What?”

“Sex.” he replies.

Mildred exclaims, “Why you old coot. You couldn’t get it up if I held a gun
to your head!”

“I know,” Frank says, “but it would be nice if a woman could just hold it
for awhile.”

“Well, I can oblige,” says Mildred, who unzips his trousers, removes his

manhood and proceeds to hold it.

Afterward, they agree to meet secretly each night in the garden where they
would sit and talk and Mildred would hold Frank’s thingie.

Then one night Frank didn’t show up at their usual meeting place. Alarmed,
Mildred decided to find him and make sure he was O.K.

She walked around the Senior Citizen Home where she found him sitting by the
pool with Ethel, another female resident, who was holding Frank’s little
pal.

Furious, Mildred yelled, “You two-timing son-of-a-gun!! What does Ethel
have that I don’t have?”

Old Frank smiled happily and replied, “Parkinson’s”
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May 2, 2012 8:02pm
Viking2

NZ’s smokin! 😎

http://screencast.com/t/GrWJlUTEh
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May 2, 2012 8:02pm
Michael Mckee

Bereal – Just read these today and it’s no wonder Turkey won’t let Gert Wilders visit even as a Dutch MP.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/04/wilders_agonistes.html
The report recommended that the U.S. government designate Turkey as one of the world’s 16 most egregious violators of religious freedom, sharply downgrading Turkey’s status from a prior “watch” list country to the worst offender’s category, designated “Countries of Particular Concern.”

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/04/eurabia_versus_wilders_agonistes.html
The primary step, Wilders argues, should be a vigorous defense of freedom of speech, including the repeal of all hate speech laws deliberately tailored to silence reasoned criticism of Islam,

Second, Wilders calls for the rejection of “all forms of cultural relativism,” and the reaffirmation of the superiority of Western culture — “based on Judeo-Christian and humanist values,”

The third and most comprehensive action Wilders describes is halting Western Islamization.

Finally, Wilders calls for a restoration of the Western nation-state ideal, the embodiment and safeguard of our democratic liberties and political freedoms

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/05/wilders_many_people_unfortunately_are_blind_to_the_true_nature_of_islam.html
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May 2, 2012 8:28pm
Griff

Time to buy some popcorn???????

by Whaleoil on May 2, 2012
http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2012/05/tomorrow-all-hell-will-break-loose/
This will be the flip side of everything you have ever read about this whole little nest of nasties.

I have the documents, I have the emails, I have the files and I have the hard drives and I have the databases. I will slowly but surely reveal everything and I will use as few of my own words as possible and instead use the words from the very emails of the people involved.

There is going to be hell to pay.
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May 2, 2012 9:30pm
Falafulu Fisi

slijmbal, I also believe that we came from something and not from nothing. I think that we came from something pre-existing prior to the big bang. Origin? Umm, unknown. String theorists had proposed branes in which the big bang was a result of collision of 2 branes. So, according to Stringists, there was something before the big bang. Where did the branes originate from? Unknown, so it is pointless for physicists or Christians to claim that branes originated from nothing (or God). And there is the Plasma Universe Theory (PUT), where big bang never happened. Universe has always pre-existed and never had a beginning (a bang). Origin? Unknown. PUT has been heavily criticized by other physicists for some observational holes/shortfalls in the theory.

I don’t take Big Bang theory seriously as it is a creationist theory.

An upcoming event by US Physicist Prof. Lawrence M. Krauss on the topic of A Universe from Nothing with detail below:

Date: Friday 11 May 2012
Time: 05:30 p.m. – 06:30 p.m.
Venue: ASB THEATRE, AOTEA CENTRE
Price: Earlybird $20, Standard $25, Patrons $16, Students $12.50

and you can book here if you want to attend.

I’m not interested in such wild physics speculation of a universe that originated from nothing. First, it violates causality, and anything that violates causality has no identities and therefore can’t physically exist. The other point is, I’ve been to a few public lectures (at University of Auckland) in the past (particularly the annual Sir Douglas Robb Lectures) for Physicis Nobel Laureates which were free ( last one I attended was Nobel Laureate, Prof. Carl Wieman in 2006). I wouldn’t wast Standard $25 to go and see a lecture by a physics creationists as Dr. Krauss.
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May 2, 2012 10:17pm
Falafulu Fisi

Here is one big mistake that physicists had made (include the great man himself – Einstein) in regarding space as some kind of rarefied object. Space is simply nothing. It is not an object and this is what have taken physicists to adopt wild speculations as nonsense as space-time curve. Can anyone think of a curve time? Perhaps 2 nano-seconds is curve? How about curve 4 minutes? It makes sense in mathematics but it doesn’t exist in reality? Space-time curvature is not an object. It is a relational concept only, it is not some kind of rarefied object and this is the big mistake that physicists made (Einstein included).

Treating space as some kind of rarefied object lead to various nonsense in physics. The familiar one is? Time-traveling. Such idea has to be dismissed out of hand, because for physical objects to travel backward in time, requires that an effect takes precedence than the cause? Does this sound familiar? Yep! Look no further than biblical stories of a God that goes back in time and changed the past.

Here is a philosophical take on what space really is.

What is Space?

The reason physicists made this mistake (ie, rarefying space as some kind of object) is because they regard every solution to every equations as somehow must be truly correspondence on a one to one relation to physical reality, more like the children Simon Says game. If the solutions/equations to say General Relativity (GR) model says that space-time is curved, then physicists take it at face value and say, aha! Space-time is an object and it is really curve or something can travel back in time thru it, etc, … This is when mathematics parted from reality, because physicists interpret every solution as a revelation of some underlying physical reality.

Physics must be guided first by philosophy and then mathematics second so to avoid un-physical interpretations of the solutions. But modern day physics is guided by mathematics first, then philosophy second and that’s why we see lots of contradictions today as particle can be at 2 places at once, correlated events in 2 distant points can communicate instantaneously, blah, blah, blah. Such physical actions are really God-like actions, because there is no causation at all. Weird. These all arise from mathematics first, then ask philosophy second. It should be the other way round.
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May 2, 2012 10:56pm
Fletch

Guys, whichever way you look at it, the Universe has to come from something, otherwise we wouldn’t be here now.
You can’t keep on reaching back and back and back without a First Cause (although some scientists would like to).

St Thomas Aquinas’ theory goes something like this –

Saint Thomas’s views are best understood if we begin with thought experiments from the secular world. Suppose you want to purchase a pound of turkey at the deli counter. Upon arrival there, you find that you must take a number before you can place your order. Just as you are about to take a number, however, you find that you are required to take a number before you can take a number. And just as you are about to take that number, you find that you must first take yet another number.Thus you must take a number to take a number to take a number to be able to place your order at the deli counter.

Suppose further that the series of numbers you are required to take is infinite. Every single time you are about to take a number, you discover that there exists a prior number you must first take before you can take the next number. You will never get to the deli counter under such conditions. From now until the end of time you will be forever taking numbers . Now if you were to come across someone in the grocery store walking around with half a pound of roast beef that he had purchased at the deli counter, you would instantly know that the series of numbers must in fact not go on forever.

We have seen that with an infinite series of numbers no one could ever reach the deli counter. But the person with the roast beef must somehow have managed to get to the counter. Thus the series cannot be infinite

These examples may appear quite remote from the question of God’s existence, but they are not; Saint Thomas’s proof is in a certain way analogous to them both. He begins with the idea that every effect requires a cause, and that nothing that exists in the physical world is the cause of its own existence. This is known as the principle of sufficient reason. When we encounter a table, for example, we know perfectly well that it did not come into existence spontaneously. It owes its existence to something else: a builder and previously existing raw materials. An existing thing Z owes its existence to some cause Y. But Y itself, not being self-existing, is also in need of a cause. Y owes its own existence to cause X. But now X must be accounted for. X owes its existence to cause W.

We are faced, as with the example of the deli counter, with the difficulties posed by an infinite series. In this case, we are faced with the following problem: Every cause of a given effect itself demands a cause in order to account for its own existence; this cause in turn requires a cause, and so on. If we have an infinite series on our hands, in which each cause itself requires a cause, then nothing could ever have come into existence.

Excerpt from “How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilisation”, by Thomas E Woods
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May 3, 2012 8:17am
nasska

Fletch

The analogy of the turkey & the deli counter rather than confirming the “First Cause” theory illustrates that the concepts of infinity &/or eternity are beyond the understanding of the human mind. Instead of accepting that as a limitation imposed by our DNA, scientists invent theories dependent on mathematical oddities while those with a theological bent create deities in their minds.

The hallucinations of yourself & other well meaning & otherwise sane people have their genesis in the limits of Man’s intelligence. Why not accept this & get on with enjoying the only life you have or will know?
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May 3, 2012 8:38am
Fletch

nasska, some things are beyond the human mind, and that is why we have faith. God’s mind is so far above our mind.
It’s like when you turn on a lightswitch and it gets light – will your dog or cat ever understand why it suddenly gets lighter?

But as far as infinity, just get two mirrors and face them into one another. That is infinity right there. Perhaps it is difficult to understand, but there is an example right in front of you.
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May 3, 2012 8:45am
Fletch

ps, Father Barron has a new video out today where he discusses Faith and Reason – why it is OK to question, and that the Church does not demand blind faith without any reason at all. it is faith on the other side of reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcH_5Iecu5s

He is trying to answer his youtube critics here, who talk about blindly believing a superstition, or “falling for any old fairy story; that faith is ‘irrational'”.
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May 3, 2012 8:47am
Ryan Sproull

Guys, whichever way you look at it, the Universe has to come from something, otherwise we wouldn’t be here now.

Whichever way you look at it, God has to come from something, otherwise it wouldn’t be here now.
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May 3, 2012 9:02am
nasska

Fletch

Correction…..you & a not inconsiderable number of others have “faith” in a deity. Many of the rest of us exist quite happily by accepting that some things are beyond the human mind & physique. Growing feathers & flying is a ridiculous concept but still a valid example.

My hypothesis is simple……a few lonely goatherders sit in a desert looking at the night sky & realise that distance & time cannot be understood or rationalised. Along comes a witch doctor promising that the God he’s pushing only requires blind belief (& a few shekels on the side to pay for a religious infrastructure). The payoff is eternal life free from the worries infinity & eternity present.

For the hierarchy of the organisation created springs power & wealth…..not really that much difference from any other power base is it?
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May 3, 2012 9:03am
Fletch

Ryan, on the contrary, God doesn’t have a cause. He is infinite; has always existed. He is the First Cause. By definition, the First Cause cannot have a cause (because it is first).
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May 3, 2012 9:07am
Fletch

naaska, and yet, some of the most intelligent men that have ever lived believed in and believe in God. Scientists, poets, writers, musicians, artists, statesmen – men wiser than I am (and probably you as well) – even geniuses – believe in the God of the Bible. Some of the greatest thinkers of our time. Do you think they were wrong? Have been tricked?

In fact, most of the world is religious in one way or another.

According to the CIA website, there are approx 7 billion people in the world –
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html

(Click on the [+] People and Society link)

According to the same site, 88.54% are religious in some way – Christian 33.35% (of which Roman Catholic 16.83%, Protestant 6.08%, Orthodox 4.03%, Anglican 1.26%), Muslim 22.43%, Hindu 13.78%, Buddhist 7.13%, Sikh 0.36%, Jewish 0.21%, Baha’i 0.11%, other religions 11.17%.

Only 9.42% are non-religious and 2.04% are atheist.

So, you’re saying pretty much that most of the world is stupid because they believe in something greater than themselves. It also makes you a minority.
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May 3, 2012 9:18am
Scott Chris

Guys, whichever way you look at it, the Universe has to come from something, otherwise we wouldn’t be here now.

Maybe, but if God can be infinite, why can’t the universe be? It seems quite likely that our big bang was simply part of an infinite chain of big bangs.

Another theory is based on the assumption that ‘nothing’ is infinite, therefore anything is possible in an infinite probability field including the spontaneous creation of matter – as well as the spontaneous creation of God as you know him.

Win win.
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May 3, 2012 9:19am
philu

i don’t even understand how television can broadcast pictures thru the air…(did some ‘god’ do it..?..)

..and the point is that like most others..(no matter any claims to the different..)..i don’t know shit…

..and that ‘shit’-assessment applies to everyone else..

..to claim to know/understand..some grand plan..by some dude in the skies…is totally delusional..

..no matter which different/hating-every-other-one/’grand-plan’-franchise ‘believers’ have signed up to…

..absolutely barking…all of them..

..(and fletch still hasn’t told just what is in his rapture-pack..and i hope he does have clean underwear..is prepared for the unexpected/a long stay..)

..phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 3, 2012 9:20am
dime

Viking – cheers for the link dude.

and remember – the police are your friend 😀
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May 3, 2012 9:20am
graham

Ryan: how far back do you go?

Let’s say the Universe has to come from something. Let’s call it God.
You then say, “God has to come from something.” Fine. Let’s call it, I don’t know, Frank.
You then say “Frank has to come from something.” Fine. Let’s say, Frank came from Bob.
You then say “Bob has to come from something.” Fine. Let’s say, Bob came from Simon.
You then say “Simon has to come from something.” Fine. Let’s say, Simon came from Joan.
You then say “Joan has to come from something.” Fine. Let’s say, Joan came from Michael.
You then say, “…”

This could go on for some time.

Eventually, don’t you have to say “There was something that didn’t come from anything before it? That just was?”
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May 3, 2012 9:23am
graham

Scott Chris:

That’s the other possiblity of course – my above example just goes on and on and on. It’s infinite.

Now, can somebody please explain infinite? 🙂
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May 3, 2012 9:25am
Fletch

Scott Chris – if anything can come from nothing, then we’d have objects popping spontaneously into existence all the time around us. Even stars and other astronomical objects. I don’t see it happening, and neither do scientists.
As far as our human observation and experience, things have a beginning and an end (except God ;))
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May 3, 2012 9:28am
Ryan Sproull

Ryan, on the contrary, God doesn’t have a cause. He is infinite; has always existed. He is the First Cause. By definition, the First Cause cannot have a cause (because it is first).

Ohhhhhh. “Everything has to come from something else” is a rule for everything except God. I seeeeee.
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May 3, 2012 9:29am
Fletch

graham, that’s right – if everything has to come from something else in order to exist (as in my book excerpt above) – if everything relies on something else in order to exist, then nothing would ever exist at all – we wouldn’t be here.
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May 3, 2012 9:31am
Fletch

Ohhhhhh. “Everything has to come from something else” is a rule for everything except God. I seeeeee.

Ryan, exactly. As i said, the First Cause cannot itself have a cause (otherwise we would not call it first).
I, and other Christians, refer to this (Him) as God.
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May 3, 2012 9:32am
nasska

Fletch

Being part of a minority view does not necessarily equate with that view being right or wrong.

Perhaps man has a natural tendency to look for a higher being to fill in the gaps left by his imperfect ability to know all things. The fact that about 90% of the world’s population profess to various religions ignores those who practise but not believe for reasons of coercion or social conformity.

I don’t think that religious people are stupid….rather they seek explanations for that which they cannot understand. That & the insidious brainwashing techniques they are exposed to from infancy.
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May 3, 2012 9:33am
Fletch

naaska, what about people who are not “exposed from infancy” and take up a religion after having experienced it?
Malcolm Muggeridge, the famous journalist, became Catholic after meeting Mother Teresa.
It’s not all brainwashing. Yes, I’ve known a lot of people who were raised ‘cradle Catholics’, left the Church, but then came back to it when they were older.
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May 3, 2012 9:36am
Ryan Sproull

Ryan: how far back do you go?

Let’s say the Universe has to come from something. Let’s call it God.
You then say, “God has to come from something.” Fine. Let’s call it, I don’t know, Frank.
You then say “Frank has to come from something.” Fine. Let’s say, Frank came from Bob.
You then say “Bob has to come from something.” Fine. Let’s say, Bob came from Simon.
You then say “Simon has to come from something.” Fine. Let’s say, Simon came from Joan.
You then say “Joan has to come from something.” Fine. Let’s say, Joan came from Michael.
You then say, “…”

This could go on for some time.

Eventually, don’t you have to say “There was something that didn’t come from anything before it? That just was?”

No, you don’t have to say that. You can say that.

Or perhaps, eventually you say, “I’m seeing the pattern here. Logically this means the chain must have no beginning at all.”

Or, if you’re fond of beginnings, why not say that the Big Bang was just the first event? The bottom card in the deck. Asking what came “before the Big Bang” is like asking what’s “outside the universe” – a meaningless question in the first place.
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May 3, 2012 9:40am
Fletch

Infinity/First Cause I guess can be seen like dominoes falling.

If you stand up a domino and push it over, it has fallen because you pushed it. Your finger is the cause.

But what if it requires another domino behind it to knock into it and push it over – then that second domino requires another domino to fall into that one and push it so you place another one behind it – and so on and so on – until you have a whole lot of dominos standing on the table, always adding more and more.

The fact that the first domino you placed (and all the other ones) is lying flat gives us a clue that someone pushed it – someone started the reaction because they have fallen over.

If an event always requires another cause, they they would still all be standing up and being added to.
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May 3, 2012 9:41am
Ryan Sproull

Ryan, exactly. As i said, the First Cause cannot itself have a cause (otherwise we would not call it first).
I, and other Christians, refer to this (Him) as God.

Well, you can stop worrying, as there’s no need for a “first cause”.

But let’s say there was a first event, and that first event was the Big Bang. You’d call it God and worship it?
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May 3, 2012 9:44am
philu

“..Yes, I’ve known a lot of people who were raised ‘cradle Catholics’, left the Church, but then came back to it when they were older…”

that’d be that ingrained-in-youth hell-fear kicking in…

..that proves diddly-squat…

(and hilarious..!..the smug-conviction that god is a ‘he’..)

..religious-freaks do a lot of ‘smug’..eh..?

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 3, 2012 9:44am
Ryan Sproull

The fact that the first domino you placed (and all the other ones) is lying flat gives us a clue that someone pushed it – someone started the reaction because they have fallen over.

Only if you start with the assumption that there are a finite number of dominos, and that they require fingers to start falling over.
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May 3, 2012 9:45am
Fletch

Asking what came “before the Big Bang” is like asking what’s “outside the universe” – a meaningless question in the first place.

Ryan, however, Christians do believe that God is outside the Universe. That he not only created the Universe, he created Time itself. Where God is, there is no such thing as time – or that things must progress one after the other along a timeline. Time is part of the creation – part of the Universe. Time and space are linked (as I think Einstein reasoned?)
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May 3, 2012 9:47am
Fletch

Only if you start with the assumption that there are a finite number of dominos, and that they require fingers to start falling over.

Ryan, but if there are an infinite number of them, always adding more and more, and there was never a push, then we wouldn’t be here (if we’re talking about existence equating to dominoes that have fallen over).
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May 3, 2012 9:50am
nasska

Fletch

Didn’t someone say something to the effect of “give me the boy until age seven & I’ll show you the man”. All religious organisations would go along with this & Catholics are certainly no exception.

In any case as I opined the other day, religion is a fairly benign manifestation of self abuse. I don’t think that young children should be exposed to the dangers it presents to their physical & mental well being but I accept that as being just my opinion.

As the late Dave Allen would say, “……may your God go with you”.
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May 3, 2012 9:50am
Fletch

naaska, and yet I have read studies that say that those who are religious are happier, and have less stress. Their children have less to do with drugs, get in trouble less, have better outcomes with grades etc etc – So why wouldn’t you expose children to religion?
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May 3, 2012 9:53am
Fletch

For instance, you are less likely to be a heavy drinker if you attend church weekly, and have only one partner.

http://www.frc.org/marri-mappingamerica/mapping-america-113-heavy-drinking-by-current-religious-attendance-and-number-of-extramarital-sexual-partners
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May 3, 2012 9:56am
Ryan Sproull

Ryan, however, Christians do believe that God is outside the Universe. That he not only created the Universe, he created Time itself. Where God is, there is no such thing as time – or that things must progress one after the other along a timeline. Time is part of the creation – part of the Universe. Time and space are linked (as I think Einstein reasoned?)

Creation is an event. Events happen within the context of time. Creation outside of the context of time is meaningless.

Ryan, but if there are an infinite number of them, always adding more and more, and there was never a push, then we wouldn’t be here (if we’re talking about existence equating to dominoes that have fallen over).

That’s the conclusion of your argument, not a premise of it.
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May 3, 2012 9:57am
graham

Ryan:

‘Asking what came “before the Big Bang” is like asking what’s “outside the universe” – a meaningless question in the first place.’

Why? Isn’t the idea of science to question, to explore, to understand the whys? If you’re going to be content with just saying “The Big Bang started everything, but we can’t explain what started the Big Bang but that doesn’t matter because it’s a meaningless question”, what’s the difference between my faith in God and your faith in the Big Bang? After all, isn’t one of the complaints against Christianity that people just supposedly accept what they’re told without question?
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May 3, 2012 9:57am
Ryan Sproull

Why? Isn’t the idea of science to question, to explore, to understand the whys? If you’re going to be content with just saying “The Big Bang started everything, but we can’t explain what started the Big Bang but that doesn’t matter because it’s a meaningless question”, what’s the difference between my faith in God and your faith in the Big Bang? After all, isn’t one of the complaints against Christianity that people just supposedly accept what they’re told without question?

There’s a difference between recognising that a question is meaningless, and calling something an answer to that question.

Let’s say you ask me how long purple is. “How long is purple?” you ask. I say, “The question is meaningless.” You say, “No, it’s 17 metres long. I guess we both have faith.”

I don’t have faith in the meaningless of a question like “What happened before time?” or “Where are things outside of space?” Their meaningless is a logical necessity.

I should add that I’m not saying I believe that the Big Bang was the first event. Just that it’s logically possible, as a counter-example to the idea that something had to cause it.
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May 3, 2012 10:06am
Michael Mckee

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/05/wilders_many_people_unfortunately_are_blind_to_the_true_nature_of_islam.html

1. adherence to a religion must be a personal choice
2. no religion should demand that those who leave it be killed
3. a religion must never mandate the subjugation of those who do not belong to it.
4. a religion must be in accord with basic human rights.

8yrs dodging Muslim extremists for speaking the truth about classical Islam.
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May 3, 2012 10:06am
Fletch

Events happen within the context of time. Creation outside of the context of time is meaningless.

Says who?
Time and Space are linked. There is an article in Discover magazine that says Time may not actually exist –
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/in-no-time

What did Einstein say?

Surprising as it may be to most non-scientists and even to some scientists, Albert Einstein concluded in his later years that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously. In 1952, in his book Relativity, in discussing Minkowski’s Space World interpretation of his theory of relativity, Einstein writes:

Since there exists in this four dimensional structure [space-time] no longer any sections which represent “now” objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence.

Einstein’s belief in an undivided solid reality was clear to him, so much so that he completely rejected the separation we experience as the moment of now. He believed there is no true division between past and future, there is rather a single existence. His most descriptive testimony to this faith came when his lifelong friend Besso died. Einstein wrote a letter to Besso’s family, saying that although Besso had preceded him in death it was of no consequence, “…for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one.”

http://everythingforever.com/einstein.htm
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May 3, 2012 10:08am
Ryan Sproull

That doesn’t contradict my point, Fletch. I’m fine with the unity of space-time. But to speak of doing something, of something happening, is to speak in the context of before the doing, before the event, and after it. Sentences that talk about a happening outside of the context of before-happening and after-happening (the context of time) are meaningless, even if they can be constructed in a grammatically correct manner giving them an air of meaningfulness.
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May 3, 2012 10:18am
Fletch

Ryan, that is because with humans everything we know in our experience happens along a timeline. But if the space-time theory is correct, then space and time both started at the same point (the Big Bang?). That is why it is possible for God to be infinite and to be creator. He exists outside of Time and doesn’t need an event to be created Himself.
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May 3, 2012 10:30am
philu

http://whoar.co.nz/2012/when-einstein-met-tagore/

“…Collision and convergence in Truth and Beauty at the intersection of science and spirituality.

On July 14, 1930, Albert Einstein welcomed into his home on the outskirts of Berlin the Indian philosopher Rabindranath Tagore.

The two proceeded to have one the most stimulating, intellectually riveting conversations in history – exploring the age-old friction between science and religion.

Science and the Indian Tradition: When Einstein Met Tagore recounts the historic encounter – amidst a broader discussion of the intellectual renaissance that swept India in the early twentieth century – germinating a curious osmosis of Indian traditions and secular Western scientific doctrine.

The following excerpt from one of Einstein and Tagore’s conversations dances between previously examined definitions of science, beauty, consciousness, and philosophy –

– in a masterful meditation on the most fundamental questions of human existence…”

(cont..)

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 3, 2012 10:38am
KiwiGreg

@ Ryan purple is exactly 12 feet long. Your failure to recognise this shows you to be an apostate who must, in accordance with our faith, be burned alive.
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May 3, 2012 10:48am
Ryan Sproull

Ryan, that is because with humans everything we know in our experience happens along a timeline. But if the space-time theory is correct, then space and time both started at the same point (the Big Bang?). That is why it is possible for God to be infinite and to be creator. He exists outside of Time and doesn’t need an event to be created Himself.

If space and time are unified, and the whole space-time universe is a single thing, “beginning” to “end”, there’s no need for a creator in the first place.

That aside, when you talk about God “creating time”, do you imagine there being a before-God-created and an after-God-created?
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May 3, 2012 10:49am
graham

Ryan: If there’s no need for a creator, then did the space-time universe just suddenly “happen”? Is it like, first there is just “nothing”, then out of “nothing”, the space-time universe just magically begins? That’s a genuine question, not trying to wind you up or anything; I’m interested to know how you think it works.
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May 3, 2012 10:55am
Yvette

Back in the real present universe–
A Cabinet paper prepared by McCully was leaked yesterday and confirmed decisions to scale back the number of job losses from 304 to 146.

Isn’t there something Goff could be charged with, like receiving stolen goods, for possessing and releasing private Cabinet documents, or is the fear here too that the leak may be a National MP whose immediate departure may result in a by-election which National could loose?
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May 3, 2012 10:58am
graham

Has anybody ever been charged over a leak?
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May 3, 2012 11:02am
Ryan Sproull

Ryan: If there’s no need for a creator, then did the space-time universe just suddenly “happen”? Is it like, first there is just “nothing”, then out of “nothing”, the space-time universe just magically begins? That’s a genuine question, not trying to wind you up or anything; I’m interested to know how you think it works.

No worries, Graham.

“Happening” is a thing that ~~happens~~… uh… occurs within space-time. For there to be “nothing” and then “the universe”, that would require the context of time for it to be meaningful.

It’s like trying to imagine the universe from the outside. Okay, so maybe you’re imagining this black expanding sphere of space hanging in darkness that you’re seeing from the outside. But that can’t be an accurate imagining, because you’re imagining the universe inside space, when actually the universe is the context for space in the first place.

The same goes for time. Let’s say we try to imagine the universe starting. Okay, we’re imagining “nothing” and then suddenly the universe of space-time, beginning to end, pops into existence. But again, that can’t be an accurate imagining, because you’re imagining before time, when actually time is the context for “before” and “after” in the first place.

Popping into existence is something that has meaning only within the context of the universe of space-time. Outside of that context, it’s meaningless to talk about popping into existence or not popping into existence, etc.

Perhaps another way to put it is this: We have people asking where the universe came from, but coming-from-something is something that happens only inside the universe, not to the universe itself.
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May 3, 2012 11:09am
Luc Hansen

Meanwhile, Sky News announced a new government policy towards “boat people,” that Australian families are to be paid hundreds of dollars per week to take in asylum seekers.

If you go back to the scurrilous “Boat People” thread of the other day, you will see that this was exactly one of my suggestions.

More importantly, it emphasises another point I and others have made, that the Australian policy of mandatory detention and mass incarceration has failed, and we should not embark down that very path when the evidence is failure is right before our noses.

Or, I do wonder, was this a giant smokescreen from JK (aided and abetted by DPF) to deflect attention from the increasingly difficult position John Banks has managed to ensnare himself in?
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May 3, 2012 11:10am
philu

my favourite catholic…talks catholicism…

http://whoar.co.nz/2012/carne-ross-the-colbert-report-full-episode-video/

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 3, 2012 11:12am
philu

“..Back in the real present universe–..”

and in that universe..

funny story..!….mcully touted that $42 million wd be saved from his reforms..

..as it turns out..$12 million will be saved..

..and the amount spent on consultants..?..

..$9 million..so far..with $3 million more to be spent..

..is someone just having a laff here..?

..would love to know the names/political-alliegances of those consultants..

..does anyone else smell cronyism here..?

..phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 3, 2012 11:18am
graham

Cheers Ryan. If nothing else, trying to bend your mind around such questions as “when did time begin? what was there there before time? how do you imagine infinity?” is great fun.

I might have to bow out of this discussion now, though, I actually need to do some work which pays … 🙁
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May 3, 2012 11:25am
Chthoniid

Graham & Ryan

I think the old analogy that Hawking used is sometimes useful at getting the idea across. The analogous argument was that asking what happened before the big-bang is like asking what’s north of the north pole. It becomes somewhat incoherent trying to extrapolate aspects of this universe beyond it.
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May 3, 2012 11:28am
Luc Hansen

McCully arrived in the job with a predetermined view he has been spouting for years. I think he has a bad case of success-envy, not born but certainly maturing, during nine years of opposition. Like many who have pet ideas, he arrived in power determined to wield a big stick and found he ran out of viagra at the wrong time.

Now its just face saving for the sake of face saving. Key should have the courage Bolger showed when he elbowed Ruth Richardson out of her disastrous tenure as Minister of Finance and move the Prince of Machiavelli to somewhere safer for society, like, retirement.
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May 3, 2012 11:30am
Ryan Sproull

Cheers Ryan. If nothing else, trying to bend your mind around such questions as “when did time begin? what was there there before time? how do you imagine infinity?” is great fun.

I might have to bow out of this discussion now, though, I actually need to do some work which pays …

Cheers, Graham. I had actually better do the same.

Graham & Ryan

I think the old analogy that Hawking used is sometimes useful at getting the idea across. The analogous argument was that asking what happened before the big-bang is like asking what’s north of the north pole. It becomes somewhat incoherent trying to extrapolate aspects of this universe beyond it.

Ahhhh, that’s a very good analogy.
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May 3, 2012 11:31am
Luc Hansen

According to Falafulu Fisi black holes exist only in theory. So what all this about?

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/scientists-watch-black-hole-feast-on-unlucky-star-20120503-1y00x.html
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May 3, 2012 11:35am
Pete George

Now the occupation is winding down how will Afghanistan get on over the next few years?

I’m reminded of a cartton from a decade ago: Rubble of Afghanistan.
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May 3, 2012 11:41am
Luc Hansen

Pete, Afghanistan may well be left as even more mashed up rubble, but at least it will be their rubble. The best thing we can do is show to them the respect they are due as a sovereign nation to live their own lives without being the target of trigger-happy presidents and prime ministers under the sun.

And one other thing, we should begin generous reparation payments immediately.
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May 3, 2012 11:51am
thedavincimode

Fletch

For instance, you are less likely to be a heavy drinker if you attend church weekly, and have only one partner.

Or is that: if you are a bit boring and aren’t much fun, then you are more likely to attend church weekly? 😉
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May 3, 2012 11:52am
Yvette

funny story..!….mcully touted that $42 million wd be saved from his reforms..
..as it turns out..$12 million will be saved..
..and the amount spent on consultants..?..
..$9 million..so far..with $3 million more to be spent..
..is someone just having a laff here..?

No, Phil, it is not a funny story
Nor is the dumb woman sitting on Goff’s right as he commented on this in Parliament yesterday.
Showing considerable mirth she was, as this loss of taxpayers money was pointed out. WTF does she think she is in Parliament for?
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May 3, 2012 12:09pm
philu

i’m not actually laughing about it yvette…

..and i think that woman wd have been laughing at the eyewatering incompetence-story of this govt. those figures tell…

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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May 3, 2012 12:16pm
joana

How much are you contributing Luc? I am one of those older NZers who was taught never throw good money after bad so my contribution would be nil.
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May 3, 2012 12:16pm
Falafulu Fisi

Luc said…

According to Falafulu Fisi black holes exist only in theory

I didn’t say that? I said that physics mathematical solution which implies violation of causality must be dismissed. If blackhole exists, then such notion as blackhole is a gateway to the past or time-travelling (as some have proposed simply because the mathematical solution to General Relativity’s model say so or being implied that it is so) is nonsense. It must be dismissed because it implies non-causality. This doesn’t say (or prohibit) the existence of blackholes. These are 2 different ideas.
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May 3, 2012 12:17pm
DavidR

Being not-very-busy, I just had a look at the posting of the General Debates. Until 30 April they appeared, regular as clockwork, at 8.00am, by Kokila Patel. There was none on 1 May. 2 May was posted by David Farrar at 9.16am, and now, apparently, none on 3 May.

Bah Humph! Bring back Kokila Patel and sack that Farrar guy! 🙂
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May 3, 2012 12:27pm
Griff

FFF
Was fulling what lies outside of his universe 🙂
As is the wont of most
Be it by god or “it” out side of reality
Reality is that we are trapped within our own universe and concepts out side of this a but mere conjecture by some pretty tricky math complete with paradox and reductio ad absurdum. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation
I believe in some sort of weird universe
Where the matter/ energy that enters a black hole intact changes phase in terms of time or if you like dimension
Where the now that is for us infinite becomes the creation of another universe.In phase in that it to will reach its event horizon that it exists within
and the reality of its now universe sized black hole within starts again As this must be contained within another dimension so to speak it inherently leaves you with an infinite Out side of time reality .
Are there gods in that…NO

By the way thats my nut job beliefs
😆
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May 3, 2012 12:34pm
graham

Griff:

Uh … what?

You may like to reread what you have written, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
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May 3, 2012 12:37pm
Luc Hansen

Sure Falafulu, I won’t get into the causality/non-causality argument other than to say your view seems based on belief, rather than derived from first principles. But you still say, “If black holes exist…” and this implies non-acceptance of the theory.

So what’s your explanation of the phenomenon described in the SMH article, O brilliant one?
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May 3, 2012 12:37pm
Griff

😈

Pete George (13,044) Says:
May 3rd, 2012 at 11:41 am
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May 3, 2012 12:42pm
Luc Hansen

I happened across this nice video on the NZ Herald site:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=125349

It was made by Agence France-Presse (AFP), and international, not-for-profit organisation.

The very last sentence of the voice-over concerned the previous government’s attempt to tax farm animal methane emissions, and the tone struck me as slightly mocking of the (gullible) Kiwi public. Watch and make up your own minds.
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May 3, 2012 12:43pm
Luc Hansen

Griff

Is there any evidence for your belief, other than your belief?

You and FF do have something in common, after all!
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May 3, 2012 12:44pm
Falafulu Fisi

Luc, here is a fact. Just a quick post. Einstein took the constancy of speed of light as a fact of reality (which is true) to develop his special relativity. He didn’t explain why. He simply take it as a fact of nature which wasn’t based on first principle as you say.
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May 3, 2012 12:45pm
Griff

Ryan Sproull and FFF know far more than me
Sorry Try
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_dark_matter

No I don’t have any truth only faith The math is approx six years study to understand if then. But I understand that It explains some of the quandaries of space time theory and is not outside of conjecture !
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May 3, 2012 1:07pm
Lee01

Ryan,

“Ohhhhhh. “Everything has to come from something else” is a rule for everything except God. I seeeeee.”

No, you really don’t, largely because you do not understand the argument being made.

Everything FINITE has to come from something else. That is an observable fact. But, if everything finite has to come from something else then clearly there is something that is infinite that is a first cause.

The above argument does not prove God, but it DOES show that belief in God is rational.
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May 3, 2012 3:42pm

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