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April 30, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 30 April 2012

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General Debate

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Yvette

The Anzac story is a terrible blot on us. We happily joined a despicable and cynical war between European empires for world domination. We invaded another country and butchered 50,000 young men defending their homeland. After we got our butts kicked we happily went off to the mud fields in Europe, led by the same incompetent leaders from Gallipoli.
…
Now we celebrate our poster boys in Afghanistan in the same way I’m sure New Zealanders kidded themselves at the time about the young men who lie in the graveyards of Gallipoli.

Anzac Day is a day, we are told, that makes us who we are. That’s only true if we are babies who like fairytales to make us feel warm inside. Until we can tell the truth about ourselves our Waitangi and Anzac Days are just times of self-delusion.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10802113

– Matt McCarten, Herald political columnist and now revisionary historian

[for a little balance read anything by Dr John Robinson – like THE CORRUPTION OF NEW ZEALAND DEMOCRACY – A Treaty Overview
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April 30, 2012 8:00am
eszett

May I start the day with a very special post for Fletch and Falafulu Fisis and the rest of the members of kiwiblogs fan club Friends Of A Kenyan with this video

Obama at the White House Correspondents’ Dinner 2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlJG5mpsyvI

Enjoy. Only 4 more of these to come.
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April 30, 2012 8:03am
Pete George

There’s littlwe doubt that on this, John Banks is telling then truth.

The cabbage boats have to tie up on a Bank eventually.
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April 30, 2012 8:03am
Scott Chris

Dial-a-tinny the latest free market development for the cannabis trade:

Armed dial-a-tinny drug dealers are stepping up their operation in Auckland, delivering drugs to workplaces and hospitals, and touting for customers by handing out business cards in local malls, police say.

~Don’t you just love how prohibition keeps us all safer~

Might pay to double up by delivering pizza too – for the munchies
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April 30, 2012 8:16am
Scott Chris

The cabbage boats have to tie up on a Bank eventually.

Pete, everyone knows cabbage comes better served in halves.
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April 30, 2012 8:23am
Falafulu Fisi

Libel case against Obama’s gay accuser tossed
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April 30, 2012 8:55am
Pete George

There’s glowing reports of a Labour speech with “some good vision”. The piece of it that’s being highlighted, on Dim-Post and at The Standard, is yet another metaphor (how many have been used anti asset sales?):

When the right-wing party says that it’s going to cut your leg off, voters want the left-wing party to say that it’s not going to cut your leg off. Voters don’t want to be told that the left-wing party is also going to cut your leg off, but cut it off a bit lower down and give you some anesthetic.

As usual it’s hard to know if Danyl’s praise was satire or not.

But is stupid metaphors the best sort of vision Labour can come up with? or the speech grand finale:

It’s going to be hard, but we’re not afraid of hard work. With your help, and the help of the people of New Zealand, we can win the next election.

We can move forward to a future that rewards hard work and stops rewarding dishonesty. That gives the poorest of our citizens the chance to a decent life. That gives us all a chance to live in a nation that was once called ‘God’s own country.”

We can become God’s own country again. Thank you.

Good god!
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April 30, 2012 8:58am
dime

Did anyone hear Fenton on ZB this morning? LMAO

Theres not a lot going on in her head.

Whinging about WETA wanting to import 300+ highly skilled workers. She had zero facts. It was such a nothing interview. its worth a listen.

“why couldnt we have trained kiwis to do this work?”

oh, so at all times we should have 300+ highly trained graphics people up our sleeves for when we get a big movie?

fucking moron
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April 30, 2012 9:12am
Fletch

eszett, right back at ya –

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=U0BD1T47v4A#t=116s

KIMMEL: Mr President, remember when the country rallied around you in the hopes of a better tomorrow? That was hilarious… That was your best one yet.

Also (no video) –

“KIMMEL: There’s a term for guys like President Obama,” Kimmel said with a pause. “Probably not two terms.”

I hope he’s right!
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April 30, 2012 9:13am
dime

isnt matt maccarten dead?
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April 30, 2012 9:13am
mikenmild

Yvette
Both Matt McCarten and John Robinson are terrible historians – actually, they are not historians at all.
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April 30, 2012 9:17am
Fletch

Interesting…

From Wikileaks, an email showing how Obama Team Stole Election (via ballot box stuffing) , Bribed Jesse Jackson And Took Russian Money In 2008.

On Monday February 27th, 2012, WikiLeaks began publishing The Global Intelligence Files, over five million e-mails from the Texas headquartered “global intelligence” company Stratfor. The e-mails date between July 2004 and late December 2011. They reveal the inner workings of a company that fronts as an intelligence publisher, but provides confidential intelligence services to large corporations, such as Bhopal’s Dow Chemical Co., Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and government agencies, including the US Department of Homeland Security, the US Marines and the US Defence Intelligence Agency. The emails show Stratfor’s web of informers, pay-off structure, payment laundering techniques and psychological methods.

—–

RE: Insight – The Dems & Dirty Tricks ** Internal Use Only – Pls Do Not Forward **
Email-ID 339396
Date 2008-11-07 14:45:50
From howerton@stratfor.com
To burton@stratfor.com, secure@stratfor.com
Well, look at it this way. The Dems quit pretending and admitted to
themselves that to win it you have to get off your high horse and play
dirty when you have to. And they won.

———————————————————————-

From: Fred Burton [mailto:burton@stratfor.com]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 7:41 AM
To: secure@stratfor.com
Subject: Insight – The Dems & Dirty Tricks ** Internal Use Only – Pls Do
Not Forward **
** Internal Use Only – Pls Do Not Forward **

1) The black Dems were caught stuffing the ballot boxes in Philly and Ohio
as reported the night of the election and Sen. McCain chose not to
fight. The matter is not dead inside the party. It now becomes a matter
of sequence now as to how and when to “out”.

2) It appears the Dems “made a donation” to Rev. Jesse (no, they would
never do that!) to keep his yap shut after his diatribe about the Jews and
Israel. A little bird told me it was a “nice six-figure donation”. This
also becomes a matter of how and when to out.

3) The hunt is on for the sleezy Russian money into O-mans coffers. A
smoking gun has already been found. Will get more on this when the time
is right. My source was too giddy to continue. Can you say Clinton and
ChiCom funny money? This also becomes a matter of how and when to out.

http://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/339396_re-insight-the-dems-and-dirty-tricks-internal-use-only-pls.html
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April 30, 2012 9:35am
mikenmild

Seing stratfor have had this info for 4 years, it seems they are taking a while to decide how to use it. Either that, or it’s a load of nonsense.
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April 30, 2012 9:40am
Fletch

mikenmild, you think Stratfor released it on their own? C’mon, this is Wikileaks! The stuff is stolen, of course.

According to The Western Center for Journalism

The communiqués were stolen and made public by WikiLeaks.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/wikileaks-obama-team-stole-election-bribed-jesse-jackson-and-took-russian-money-in-2008/
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April 30, 2012 9:46am
graham

Did anyone catch a TV program (I think it might have been “Marae Investigate”) where Willie Jackson said that because a particular Iwi had lost most of their $18 million (from memory) Treaty of Waitangi settlement through bad investments, it was the Government’s job in the future to provide good advisors and basically tell the Iwis how to invest their money correctly?

I saw just a snippet on (I think) the News. Not having seen the full program, I’m interested in the full context. Because on the face of it, this is Willie Jackson saying “give us the money, then hold us by the hand and show us what to do with it, make sure that we silly Maori don’t fritter it away or lose it through our own fault”. He’s (a) insulting his own people by saying they’re too thick to know how to invest wisely, and (b) saying the Government should take on the responsibility for nannying the Iwi through investing it.
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April 30, 2012 9:49am
Pete George

graham – I watched that on MI and it was a bit cringy. They were also complaining about not getting anywhere near enough money.

http://tvnz.co.nz/marae/video
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April 30, 2012 10:07am
graham

Pete: Did anyone point out that if they had got more money, they would still have lost it, so just as well they only got $18 million? 🙂
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April 30, 2012 10:09am
Michael Mckee

Nah he’s just looking for another handout for Maori and trying to ignore the law of consequences.

It’s all about entitlements, he thinks Maori are weak and incapable of running their own lives because of the wickedness the evil white colonisers did to them a 150 years ago, therefore they are entitled.

It’s the reason NZ will stay as an underachieving country and people, as long as 50% of our population think they are entitled to Other Peoples Money and vote for politicians who haven’t the balls to say otherwise.
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April 30, 2012 10:14am
cows4me

yeah I saw that graham. Willie Jackson is the pits. I would bet the farm if the government introduced an advisory service for Maori and their treaty payments Willie fucking Jackson would be screaming his head off and claim the government is treating Maori in a paternalistic manner. You just can’t win with these people. Also Willie was in our local paper (Taranaki daily news ) moaning that this particular settlement was way to small. Oh great willie, you bloody clown, would have been much better if they lost $100 million.
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April 30, 2012 10:16am
krazykiwi

“why couldnt we have trained kiwis to do this work?”
oh, so at all times we should have 300+ highly trained graphics people up our sleeves for when we get a big movie?

I had dinner with one of those hightly skiller workers last night. The chap starts at WETA today, and arrived from Sydney last week. He’s a kiwi..!
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April 30, 2012 10:43am
Pete George

This is what can happen at the political roots level: National far more open than last year.

National’s Mainland conference was much more accessible to media and is making a concerted effort to engage with membership. I hope this mode of operation works it’s way up north. Other parties could also learn from it.
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April 30, 2012 10:52am
philu

http://whoar.co.nz/2012/why-low-minimum-wages-kill-jobs-and-crush-living-standards-for-everyone/

“…Contrary to right-wing propaganda –

– decent pay for workers helps the economy –

– and boosts job creation…”

(cont..)

philip ure@whoar.co.nz
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April 30, 2012 10:59am
philu

http://whoar.co.nz/2012/austerity-measures-leading-europe-to-%E2%80%98suicide%E2%80%99-nobel-economist-says-%C2%A0%C2%A0%C2%A0/

“…Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz said Europe is in a “dire” situation as a focus on austerity pushes the continent toward “suicide.”

“There has never been any successful austerity program in any large country,” Stiglitz, 69, said in Vienna on Thursday.

“The European approach definitely is the least promising.

I think Europe is headed to a suicide. ”

(cont..)

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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April 30, 2012 11:06am
graham

krazykiwi: Classic! Is he a kiwi who jumped the ditch and is now coming home?
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April 30, 2012 11:07am
krazykiwi

phil – I’ll (just) tollerate your lecturing on mind-altering drugs and armed offences because you have first hand experience of these. But as your parasitic arse has avoided employment for decades, and you’ve been firmly latched onto the taxpayer’s tit you have no right to say anything about job creation or boosting the economy. Take your fried brain home from the library and get a job.
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April 30, 2012 11:08am
krazykiwi

graham – Yes. He previously worked for Weta, then followed work opportunities to Sydney.. and now back here with Weta again. There are (apparently) a few of his former Weta colleagues doing the same.
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April 30, 2012 11:11am
bereal

kk
Don’t take this too seriously but, congratulations.
See GD 11.16 pm yesterday.

Your prize will be along quite soon.
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April 30, 2012 11:14am
graham

krazykiwi, bereal:

(whisper) sssshhh. Be very quiet, and maybe he won’t notice that somebody mentioned him …

(back to normal voice) So, anybody going to call Radio Live and deal to Willie Jackson? “Hey Willie, why do you think that Maori are too thick to know how to invest wisely? Whaddaya mean, you don’t? But you said …”
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April 30, 2012 11:30am
Yvette

If Willie Jackson believes ‘the Crown’ has an obligation beyond any final settlement, it should be to ensure the amount is divided by members of the iwi and a share is paid to each man, woman and child. If they wish then to return it to some collective investment or use that should be the individual’s business.

Jackson has likely got his ideas from here –
http://mauistreet.blogspot.co.nz/2012/04/should-government-guarantee-settlements.html
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April 30, 2012 11:44am
bereal

Yeah graham, nice suggestions, both of them.

trouble is with the 1st one there is no way that scrote will not notice.
Because thats all he has to live for.

Doesn’t matter to a scrote like that what sort of abuse he cops, just as long
as he is not ignored.

He couldn’t stand being ignored, then what would he have to live for ?
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April 30, 2012 11:45am
Viking2

dime (4,215) Says:
April 30th, 2012 at 9:12 am

Did anyone hear Fenton on ZB this morning? LMAO

Theres not a lot going on in her head.

Whinging about WETA wanting to import 300+ highly skilled workers. She had zero facts. It was such a nothing interview. its worth a listen.

“why couldnt we have trained kiwis to do this work?”

oh, so at all times we should have 300+ highly trained graphics people up our sleeves for when we get a big movie?

fucking moron

Really!

Perhaps we should then question why it is we have been spending your tax money training graphics people in the poly’s and uni’s forever. Just for Aussies sake I presume.

First chance of putting their training to work and we wnat to import a bunch Indians.
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April 30, 2012 11:46am
eszett

Fletch (2,619) Says:
April 30th, 2012 at 9:35 am

Interesting…

From Wikileaks, an email showing how Obama Team Stole Election (via ballot box stuffing) , Bribed Jesse Jackson And Took Russian Money In 2008.

Showing? Where is it showing that, Fletch? Just where?

And strafor internal email (marked with ** Internal Use Only – Pls Do Not Forward ** ) 5 days after the election with some unsubstantiated rumors? No sources , no context, no references, no nothing.

So what exactly does that show?

And I love the end of your article:

“Startfor will neither confirm nor deny whether the communiqués attributed to its staff are real or fabrications.”

Yes, sounds like someone is covering their arse.
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April 30, 2012 11:50am
graham

Yvette, some interesting reading from that link.

“… does the government owe Ngati Tama compensation? Personally, I don’t think so …”

Glad to hear that! But then in the next breath “… but I know other Maori think compensation is appropriate.”

What?! Why? They were given the money, they invested badly, and lost it. How is that the Government’s fault?

Reading on, Morgan states that it “is negligent, on the government’s part, to absolve itself of responsibilities once treaty settlements are passed.” As has been pointed out already, just wait for the screams and howls if the Governement was to say essentially the same thing that Willie Jackson has: “Maori are thick, don’t know how to invest, so we’re gonna do it for you”.

Why did the Iwi in question not seek advice from a proficient investment advisor? Or even some of the other Iwi who have managed to do quite well?
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April 30, 2012 12:02pm
philu

“..you have no right to say anything about job creation or boosting the economy…”

yes..my name is not joseph stiglitz…it is he who is quoted..

..have you always had these basic comprehension issues…? (i.e..mistaking me for stiglitz..)

..is it the tint of the lenses you look through..?..that blinds you..?

..there..k.k..?

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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April 30, 2012 12:03pm
graham

phuck …
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April 30, 2012 12:13pm
graham

How did I miss this?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/local-government/news/article.cfm?c_id=250&objectid=10802364

Talking about Len Brown (Hero of the Left when he stood against John Banks, remember!) and his plans to increase rates, “Heart of the City” advocates alternative income sources for the council, including a bed tax and 1 per cent in GST, which would be paid by everyone in Auckland – not just ratepayers.

Anyone remember the Poll Tax riots in Britain 20 years ago …

On a slight aside … apparently we had a poll tax on Chinese immigrants during the 19th and early 20th centuries. Had a great impact, that did – Chinese immigration went down from 20,000 a year to 8 people. It was repealed in 1944, and Helen Clark offered New Zealand’s Chinese community an official apology for the poll tax in 2002.
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April 30, 2012 12:26pm
Put it away

Kk made the mistake of assuming that phool quoting an item on phool’s own blog could be actually be phool’s own work. You must be new to this, kk…
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April 30, 2012 12:30pm
krazykiwi

PIA – Yes (hangs head)
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April 30, 2012 12:36pm
philu

that’s right..kk..

..tho i do also write pieces..whoar is a news-aggregation site..

..which by its’ very nature..is a best-of collection of media-pieces from all over..

(hope that clarifies matters..

tho’..as davidr would say..’that’s nice’..eh..?

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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April 30, 2012 12:38pm
cha

Fuck yeah, visitor bed tax and urban enterprise sales taxes are just like poll tax.
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April 30, 2012 12:38pm
bereal

KK

There is your prize mate @ 12.03

exactly as predicted @ 11.24 pm on yesterdays GD
and today @11.14 am

Nice one son.

You can set your watch by that scrote.
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April 30, 2012 12:44pm
dime

“willie & JT” have the weekends march at 10,000 lol

They are all over banks. The bit that cracked me up “imagine if this was winston or clarke, the out cry”. fuck, front page of the major newspapers and a ton of tv coverage not enough??

and of course, “just cause people voted for national doesnt mean they voted for asset sales”. fuck off. if it was the defining issue for them they wouldnt have voted national
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April 30, 2012 12:46pm
graham

So far I’ve seen estimates of the march attendance varying from 1,000 to 20,000 …

But as I said yesterday, half of the people who turned up were just the usual “let’s go protest something” crowd.
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April 30, 2012 12:51pm
bereal

i wonder, if Sir Douglas Graham and his mates had kept their heads down and sucked up their
sentences like men, then this other appeal may not have happened.

Not good for Sir Doug et al

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/6829361/FMA-appeals-Lombard-sentence
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April 30, 2012 1:14pm
kowtow

Wind power bad.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/9234715/Wind-farms-can-cause-climate-change-finds-new-study.html
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April 30, 2012 1:36pm
nasska

From the blog site http://antipodeanmariner.blogspot.co.nz/

He has given a link to a video of Somalian pirates taking their skiff for a Sunday outing (or maybe attempting to hijack a merchant ship). The cowardly AK47 wielding scum, used to attacking unarmed freighter crews, come unglued in a big way. No biggie but apparently the world apologists for third world cultures have condemned the ship’s security guards for using undue force. We can’t have those nice Somalians being shot at while they’re working can we? It’s probably agaist OSH regulations.

Ref: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a1KZOllt-Y
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April 30, 2012 1:43pm
Fletch

Wind power bad.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/9234715/Wind-farms-can-cause-climate-change-finds-new-study.html

kowtow, you have to laugh, really 😆
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April 30, 2012 1:49pm
Pete George

Wind farms may have a minor effect on microclimates by mixing air of different temperatures, but they operate in wind that mixes air, so it’s hard to see how any significant local changes would occur, let alone global effects.
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April 30, 2012 1:58pm
Fletch

But Pete, they are –

1. Causing lakes of toxic material in China –

This toxic lake poisons Chinese farmers, their children and their land. It is what’s left behind after making the magnets for Britain’s latest wind turbines… and, as a special Live investigation reveals, is merely one of a multitude of environmental sins committed in the name of our new green Jerusalem

[…]

Hidden out of sight behind smoke-shrouded factory complexes in the city of Baotou, and patrolled by platoons of security guards, lies a five-mile wide ‘tailing’ lake. It has killed farmland for miles around, made thousands of people ill and put one of China’s key waterways in jeopardy.

This vast, hissing cauldron of chemicals is the dumping ground for seven million tons a year of mined rare earth after it has been doused in acid and chemicals and processed through red-hot furnaces to extract its components.

Rusting pipelines meander for miles from factories processing rare earths in Baotou out to the man-made lake where, mixed with water, the foul-smelling radioactive waste from this industrial process is pumped day after day. No signposts and no paved roads lead here, and as we approach security guards shoo us away and tail us. When we finally break through the cordon and climb sand dunes to reach its brim, an apocalyptic sight greets us: a giant, secret toxic dump, made bigger by every wind turbine we build.

The lake instantly assaults your senses. Stand on the black crust for just seconds and your eyes water and a powerful, acrid stench fills your lungs.

For hours after our visit, my stomach lurched and my head throbbed. We were there for only one hour, but those who live in Mr Yan’s village of Dalahai, and other villages around, breathe in the same poison every day.

Retired farmer Su Bairen, 69, who led us to the lake, says it was initially a novelty – a multi-coloured pond set in farmland as early rare earth factories run by the state-owned Baogang group of companies began work in the Sixties.

‘At first it was just a hole in the ground,’ he says. ‘When it dried in the winter and summer, it turned into a black crust and children would play on it. Then one or two of them fell through and drowned in the sludge below. Since then, children have stayed away.’

As more factories sprang up, the banks grew higher, the lake grew larger and the stench and fumes grew more overwhelming.

‘It turned into a mountain that towered over us,’ says Mr Su. ‘Anything we planted just withered, then our animals started to sicken and die.’

People too began to suffer. Dalahai villagers say their teeth began to fall out, their hair turned white at unusually young ages, and they suffered from severe skin and respiratory diseases. Children were born with soft bones and cancer rates rocketed.

Official studies carried out five years ago in Dalahai village confirmed there were unusually high rates of cancer along with high rates of osteoporosis and skin and respiratory diseases. The lake’s radiation levels are ten times higher than in the surrounding countryside, the studies found.

Since then, maybe because of pressure from the companies operating around the lake, which pump out waste 24 hours a day, the results of ongoing radiation and toxicity tests carried out on the lake have been kept secret and officials have refused to publicly acknowledge health risks to nearby villages.

MORE – http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1350811/In-China-true-cost-Britains-clean-green-wind-power-experiment-Pollution-disastrous-scale.html

2) Wind farms sometimes produce too much electricity.
Last year in the UK, wind farms were paid £25 Million of taxpayer money not to produce electricity. £1.6 Million on one day alone!

Wind farms were paid £25million not to produce electricity when it is ‘too windy’ last year, figures revealed today.

There was a staggering 13,733 per cent rise in the payments on the year before.

Turbine operators are ordered by the National Grid to shutdown to avoid too much power being produced during gales.

Wind farms set their own rates to close and have been accused of demanding ‘excessive’ fees to shutdown, The Times reported.

On one day alone companies were paid £1.6million not to produce energy in October last year.

Figures revealed they received an average of £361 per megawatt-hour that day for electricity they could have generated – four times the price they would have sold it for. In total wind farms were asked to stop producing for 149,983 megawatt-hours – which is 1.49 per cent of the energy they produced.

This is equivalent of a large offshore facility being shutdown permanently.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2088196/Wind-farms-paid-25million-NOT-produce-electricity-blustery.html#ixzz1tUCBdpZP

And check out –

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/8999822/Wind-farms-earn-1m-to-shut-down-over-Christmas-and-New-Year-gales.html
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April 30, 2012 2:16pm
Brian Smaller

@Nasska – the Russians know how to deal with pirates. They kill them. The Royal Navy however, is loathe to even arrest them and bring them aboard their vessels in case they claim political assylum in the UK.
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April 30, 2012 2:24pm
kowtow

The Royal Navy also once knew how to deal with pirates. Simply blew ’em out of the water or hanged them from the yard arm (or some such technical marine term) Now though the pirates have human rights and the law abiding none.

Pete ,please keep making excuses for expensive,subsidised ,ideological and wasteful power production,it really does your credibility no end of good!
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April 30, 2012 3:24pm
Lee01

Somalian Pirates = Muslims.

Piracy has long been a tool of Islamic agression.

How Muslim Piracy Changed the World: http://europenews.dk/en/node/27372
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April 30, 2012 3:38pm
krazykiwi

kowtow – In defence of Pete (1:58), I can’t see these making much difference. More to the point, the research in question was published in Nature, a journel which is increasingly discredited as alarmist, and lacking scientific credibility.
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April 30, 2012 3:39pm
Griff

Translation of KK 3:39
The bible does not have climate change or any thing about wind farms
my alt science nutjob websites say no climate change

This publication “nature” has peer reviewed studies from sicientists
I dont like real science If it does not fit my conservative Cristian nutjob views it must be wrong

😆
KK and fletch are very much the same
Same book guides them to the same result
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April 30, 2012 4:00pm
Pete George

kowtow, I wasn’t making any sort of comment on wind turbines as a power source.

I have some knowledge of blade mixing of air, powered blades have been used for decades to mix air and break up the inversion layer in frost fighting for fruit and grapes. Some blades are fixed and electric powered, sometimes they use helicopters.

There’s a big difference between them and wind turbines as they use power sources to create air movement, where as wind turbines harness existing wind movement (in which case you don’t have trapped layers of cold air under an inversion layer).
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April 30, 2012 4:12pm
philu

re helen clark:..

..funny story..!

..she went to the u.n (as she says it..) to ‘end poverty’..

..after for nine long years in power here failing to do just that…

..and in fact..in her cuts to entitlements (orchestrated by benson-pope..)

..she actually made things worse…

..and of course she resolutely turned her back on those hurting the most..

..and for nine long years..

..(i guess we could be optimistic – and hope she has learnt from her failures here…)

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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April 30, 2012 4:13pm
Leaping Jimmy

So Banks has just denied he thanked Dotcom for the donation.

Obviously in response to Mallard’s point this morning about this being the “killer point,” given you can hardly deny you knew if you thanked him for it, can you.

Instead Banks has obfuscated that the phone call was ” to thank him for a $500,000 fireworks display he had donated to Auckland city.”

The bullshit is palpable, isn’t it. This is normally the point where if it was a lefty politician the media would back right off and say to the 90% of people who don’t know politics exists and the real, “in-depth” news is proclaimed 6-7:30 PM weeknights, oh, right then, sorry. However they won’t do that, this time. I guarantee it. Doesn’t Banks even know how the media work in this country? Crikey.

So obviously the recording of that phone call is somewhere on the Echelon database and since the Nats are in power and Key is GCHQ Minister it’s unlikely that copy will be handed over, but it’s quite risky isn’t it to imagine a technology multi-millionaire would never have made a recording of all his phone calls as a matter of practice, I mean, why not. Perhaps Banks is calculating Dotcom is hardly going to lay himself open to further legal issues arising from illegal recording at this particular moment in time but hey, an anonymous source untraceable from say a Ukrainian server and Banks is history. And Dotcom is pissed, you can see that. He’s not going to go away on this.

So on balance is this a good move or a dumb move, by Banks?

It’s a risky move, that’s for sure. I bet he doesn’t sleep very well tonight.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6831670/Banks-denies-Dotcom-phone-call
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April 30, 2012 4:31pm
Lee01

“I dont like real science If it does not fit my conservative Cristian nutjob views it must be wrong”

Accusations of nutjobbery are amusing coming from someone who claimed in a post above that the Bible says God created the world in six thousand years! 🙂
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April 30, 2012 4:45pm
Leaping Jimmy

Accusations of nutjobbery are amusing coming from someone who claimed in a post above that the Bible says God created the world in six thousand years!

What I find amusing are arrogant but baseless allegations made from positions of ignorance such as 100% of comments about what Christians supposedly think coming from people who aren’t and/or who’ve never been Christians. For those guilty of this who don’t know what I mean then use this analogy, dummy. Read what phil says about conservatives and think to yourself, is he right or is he wrong, about that. That’s what YOU are like, with Christians.

Idiots. All of you, who do this. Why the fuck don’t you grow a brain, you fucking morons. I mean you’re so fucking stupid you probably don’t even understand how I can both swear and be a Christian, do you. No, I didn’t think so. Fucking arrogant wankers.
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April 30, 2012 4:52pm
Mark

Banks is now looking a bit dodgy on this. The prime minister gave him a claytons endorsement – basically saying as yet I have no evidence to fire him but if you do go to the police with it.

Lets for a moment say banks has broken the rules – does key fire him and risk loosing ACT support or does Banks get ousted from parliament leaving National to contest and win a by election

good god what a potential mess
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April 30, 2012 4:53pm
Lee01

“What I find amusing are arrogant but baseless allegations made from positions of ignorance such as 100% of comments about what Christians supposedly think coming from people who aren’t and/or who’ve never been Christians.”

I agree with you. Most of the conversations I have had with posters like Griff have revealed that most internet anti-Christian ranters like him do not have a clue what real Christianity does and has taught.

They go to a few rabid atheist sites, pull a few contexteless quotes out of the Bible, and think they know what they are talking about. Griff cannot even get the Bible right (six thousand years!).

It is largely pointless debating with them. Debating with a retarded raccoon would be a better use of time.
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April 30, 2012 5:00pm
nasska

Mark

Not “God” with a small “g”!!!!! The G-d Squad are on form this arvo.

Remember the Inquisition!
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April 30, 2012 5:03pm
RRM

Idiots. All of you, who do this. Why the fuck don’t you grow a brain, you fucking morons. I mean you’re so fucking stupid you probably don’t even understand how I can both swear and be a Christian, do you. No, I didn’t think so. Fucking arrogant wankers.

With form like that I’m surprised you’ve lasted long enough to chalk up 10,504 posts without getting banned 🙂

I’m even more surprised that I’ve never noticed a poster called Leaping Jimmy before now. Has that always been your name?

[Oh and as long as you want laws in New Zealand to be based on the teachings of your invisible, imaginary creator spirit, people who just don’t believe in your invisible imaginary creator spirit are going to ask “why?”]
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April 30, 2012 5:06pm
Leaping Jimmy

Lets for a moment say banks has broken the rules – does key fire him and risk loosing ACT support or does Banks get ousted from parliament leaving National to contest and win a by election

On lefty radio weekly politics they mentioned Shearer’s suggestion: to stand him down until this is sorted. This seems a sensible compromise. Key has to be seen to be doing something otherwise National risks losing the high ground from Liarbore when it did what it did over Field and Peters. The Nats cannot afford to lose that because it is a genuine point of difference and one thing is for sure, that Liarbore will do the same thing again, that wasn’t a Hulun trait, it was a Liarbore trait (mostly because their tame media makes them think they will get away with it – they fail to understand the ‘can’t fool ALL the people ALL the time’ angle which is what tripped them up in 2007).
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April 30, 2012 5:08pm
Mark

It is Banks not I that faces the initial inquisition it seems. The root question being has he been telling porkies to the PM :0
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April 30, 2012 5:09pm
Leaping Jimmy

It’s reid, RRM.

Oh and as long as you want public policy in New Zealand to be based on the teachings of your invisible, imaginary creator spirit, people who just don’t believe in your invisible imaginary creator spirit are going to ask “why?”

Yes and that’s fine but that’s not what I was referring to above, is it. And who said I wanted that, anyway?
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April 30, 2012 5:13pm
philu

does yr new name ‘leaping jimmy’ have any theological-references..?

..an obscure saint..?..patron saint of the high-jump..?..perchance..?

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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April 30, 2012 5:40pm
Lee01

[“Oh and as long as you want laws in New Zealand to be based on the teachings of your invisible, imaginary creator spirit, people who just don’t believe in your invisible imaginary creator spirit are going to ask “why?”]

Oh dear. Where to begin? Most of the basic laws in New Zealand already ARE based on Christian principles. That has been the case in the West for over a thousand years. Your a little late to be worrying about it.

And as long as you want laws in New Zealand to be based on imaginary fantasies like secularism, humanism and Marxism, people who don’t believe in your new gods are going to ask “why?”.
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April 30, 2012 5:53pm
Put it away

Oh jesus, the nutbars have started early
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April 30, 2012 6:01pm
wat dabney

“And as long as you want laws in New Zealand to be based on imaginary fantasies like secularism, humanism and Marxism, people who don’t believe in your new gods are going to ask “why?””

That makes absolutely no sense at all.
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April 30, 2012 6:06pm
RRM

“Christian principles” – lol what are those?

The only teaching of Jesus worth mentioning is the golden rule.
And plenty of much older religions than Christianity teach that.

Human decency and a sense of natural justice is where our laws come from. There’s nothing uniquely Christian about that.
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April 30, 2012 6:07pm
wat dabney

slavery
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April 30, 2012 6:10pm
Griff

One true god
Which bunch of nutjobs do have the one true god
seems it comes in flavors
your average jewish original one true god him of the smiting and creation and all that goat herder beget goat herder stuff
the improved Cristian fundie version the sort pastor pedo preaches
Or the new and improved goat fucking kill the infidels Muslim type

Then you mix in all the different version of each
you orthodox Jew,Mormon,JW , shite ad infinitum
You now there may be an outside chance that one of these Many groups are right
That proves that all the rest are wrong
So after you have decided among yourself
No cancel that idea thats wot most wars on earth boil down to
lets just stick to you are all nut-jobs far simpler 😆
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April 30, 2012 6:18pm
Lee01

““Christian principles” – lol what are those?”

If you don’t know, then you not really in a position to discuss the issue. Discussing an issue requires you know the subject.

“The only teaching of Jesus worth mentioning is the golden rule. And plenty of much older religions than Christianity teach that.”

The only one worth mentioning? Wow. Ignorance is bliss eh 😉 Jesus taught a great deal, and much of it has entered into the legal systems and cultural framework of the West.

The West is Christian at its base, and no amount of selective historical memory failure can change that.

“Human decency and a sense of natural justice is where our laws come from.”

Historically untrue. Most laws in the West were based on Christian laws and values, and while some were also based on older pagan systems, such as the Roman civil code, the reality is that Christianity has been the primary political, legal and cultural influence for over a thousand years in the West. Pretending that is/was not the case is simple ignorance, or a lack of educatiom, or both.
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April 30, 2012 6:26pm
Lee01

Wat,

“slavery”

Chattel slavery only became common practice in the Christian West after the 1500’s and largely for ecomnomic reasons, not religious ones. It was not common prior to that largely because of the Church, while it was common everywhere else. And it was Christians who led the opposition to it.
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April 30, 2012 6:29pm
Pauleastbay

I believe over the last few days I have come across a group of people whose sole socail interaction seems to be here on Kiwiblog.

There is a world out there- its not perfect as none of us are -but its actually worth venturing out and having a look at
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April 30, 2012 6:34pm
mikenmild

At least of Kiwiblog we can maintain the illusion of being perfect and can’t be contradicted.
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April 30, 2012 6:37pm
krazykiwi

And it was Christians who led the opposition to [slavery].

I am a direct descendent of one of these people. And very proud of it.
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April 30, 2012 6:37pm
philu

so why do you now support the economic-slavery of many..?

..phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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April 30, 2012 6:40pm
Pauleastbay

Lee 01

….Chattel slavery, so named because people are treated as the personal property, chattels, of an owner and are bought and sold as commodities, is the original form of slavery………………………………………

In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas, granting the kings of Spain and Portugal the right to reduce any “Saracens, pagans and any other unbelievers” to perpetual slavery, legitimizing the slave trade as a result of war.[40] The approval of slavery under these conditions was reaffirmed and extended in his Romanus Pontifex bull of 1455.

Thats just a quick flick through wiki, the church was up to its nuts in it and many of William Wilberforces mates happily trotted off to Sunday service after checking the returns from busines’s worked by slaves,
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April 30, 2012 6:49pm
krazykiwi

I dont. That you brazenly choose to be a slave of lazy, selfish, terminal indulgence is your fault alone.
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April 30, 2012 6:50pm
Griff

six thousand years
http://www.missiontoamerica.com/genesis/six-thousand-years.html
“The Bible provides a complete genealogy from Adam to Jesus. You can go through the genealogies and add up the years. You’ll get a total that is just over 4,000 years. Add the 2,000 years since the time of Jesus and you get just over 6,000 years since God created everything.

Is there anything wrong with figuring out the age of the earth this way? No. There is nothing to indicate the genealogies are incomplete. There is nothing to indicate God left anything out. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates in any way that the world is much older than 6,000 years old”

six days

New International Version (©1984)
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning–the sixth day.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Then God looked over all he had made, and he saw that it was very good! And evening passed and morning came, marking the sixth day.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
And God saw everything that he had made and that it was very good. There was evening, then morning-the sixth day.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

American King James Version
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gee must be the other sect U guys belong to then
nothing like bible interpretation to start a war over
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April 30, 2012 6:52pm
krazykiwi

many of William Wilberforces mates

Well he had quite a few people sucking up to him on realising that his determination to eradicate slavery was gathering steam. Probably not ‘mates’ though Paul. Most of his mates were helping him in his quest.
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April 30, 2012 6:53pm
mikenmild

I think PEB’s point may have been along the lines of don’t credit Christianity for Wilberforce’s campaign when many of his fellow Christians were obviously very comfortable with slavery
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April 30, 2012 6:56pm
Yvette

ACT MP John Banks now denies he rang Kim Dotcom to thank him for an anonymous donation to his 2010 Auckland Mayoral campaign.

Perhaps the NZ Police could ask the FBI for Kim’s phone records 🙂
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April 30, 2012 6:56pm
Pauleastbay

The point KK was that christians have been slavers for centuries not as Lee tried to disavow earlier, if you make braod generalizations there will be always someone with bugger all to do for an hour to disprove it
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April 30, 2012 6:56pm
Pete George

Chattel slavery, so named because people are treated as the personal property

You mean partriarchal marriage? That has barely ceased now, although it took a big hit over the last half century.
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April 30, 2012 6:58pm
philu

you do support economic-slavery…kk..

..you are a rightie..

..that is the whole premise of being a rightie..

phillip ure@whoar.co.nz
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April 30, 2012 6:58pm
Griff

Slavery that would be evident in pre reformation england with serfs tied to the land and working mostly to benefit of a gross and corpulent church
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April 30, 2012 7:05pm
krazykiwi

The point KK was that christians have been slavers for centuries

No, Paul, the point is that slavers were ‘Christians’ because back then everyone was a ‘Christian’. Doctors, sailors, brothel keepers, MPs, thieves, merchants, bankers etc. However subtly, to attempt to cast modern day Christians as supportive of evil that existed 200 years ago is somewhat disingenuous. Obviously a hot topic for me given my heritage.
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April 30, 2012 7:06pm
slijmbal

Cambell seems to have done some real journalism for once

Banks is in real trouble
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April 30, 2012 7:09pm
krazykiwi

I think PEB’s point may have been along the lines of don’t credit Christianity for Wilberforce’s campaign

And that’s a fair point. Wilberforce was a good man. Arguably his faith may have contributed to that, but at the end of the day he did what he felt was moral, right and just as a human.
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April 30, 2012 7:09pm
bereal

Griff @ 6.18

You ask the righteous question, “Which bunch of nutjobs do have the one true God ?”

Answer. The fricken muslims, because they are unique amongst all religions in their belief that if you don’t
bow down to their God and his prophet….

They will kill you.

Their religion says they have a duty to kill you.

Now you can’t be more right than than that. (can you ?)

Question is, knowing that,
Why do we want to import more of them into New Zealand ?
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April 30, 2012 7:10pm
Fletch

Pauleastbay – It’s probably too complicated a subject to get quick answers for.

I think a lot of people have the wrong idea about what “slavery” is in the Bible. This is from what I have read, anyway. Jews were only allowed to take thieves or enemies as ‘slaves’. I think this is the equivalent of our prison system today? We deprive people of their freedom, force them into labour (breaking rocks, it used to be, or making license plates) for a certain number of years. In other words, they are slaves of the State.

None of the books of Scripture were intended to be treatises on social institutions, nor philosophical works, for which reason “slavery” is not defined as such anywhere therein. Suffice it to say, however, that there is ample evidence that slavery involved a withdrawal of several freedoms (in varying degrees for different people) and an enforced servitude to either a person or a household, usually for six years.(Ex 21: 2, Deut 15:12) Slaves were bought and sold without any apparent guilt on the part of the persons involved.

The first instance of slavery in the Bible consists of Noah’s punishment of his son Canaan for some serious sexual sin (the details of which are unknown): “Cursed be Canaan; a slave of slaves shall he be to his brothers.”(Gen 9: 27). Slavery, then, was in the first Biblical instance a punishment for some grievous sin. Generally this was the rule of the Law, with an exception to be noted below. Thus theives and enemies of the Jews could be made slaves,(cf. Ex 22:2; 2 Chr 28:8-15) but a Jew who arbitrarily took a slave would be punished by death.(Ex 21: 16)

Nevertheless, we in our slavery to sin cannot imagine there being so harsh a punishment as the loss of freedom and forced labor over the course of years. This is why life in many of our prisons in the western world has become so comfortable -indeed luxurious- in comparison with the life our poor and middle classes live. A criminal can obtain university degrees, watch television, get good meals, have water and plumbing looked after, and enjoy other comforts without having to pay a thing. Not long ago, it was the norm that a criminal was truly and justly deprived of his freedom, of his family, of comforts, and forced into unpaid labor for years. That is to say, a vile criminal was made to be a slave to society. Our justice system, then, as far as it remains, is seen to support and insist upon this slavery, and quite rightly so from the point of view of real justice. For this reason, Scripture is seen to operate within justice, in making real criminals slaves.

The Law of the Jews, as the laws of our prisons, afforded the slave certain rights and corresponding protections. The master of a slave would, according to the Law, be punished for killing him (the manner and degree of which is unspecified in written tradition).(Ex 21:20) If a master caused a woman slave to miscarry, there would be a fine determined by the woman’s husband, and “If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”(Ex 21: 22-23) Slaves would rest on the sabbath day (Ex 20: 8-11) and be restored to freedom after six years of servitude (except for non-Jews, which shall be discussed later). In these things, then, the Jewish Law on slavery is quite comparable to the slavery with which criminals in our society have been and still are frequently punished.

In any case, after Pope Nicholas V, the Popes thereafter condemned slavery,

But then, about ten years later, the Church revised its position becoming one of the first groups to condemn slavery.

+ In 1462, Pius II declared slavery to be “a great crime” (magnum scelus). Note that this was 30 years before Columbus “discovered” America.

+ In 1537, Paul III forbade the enslavement of the Indians

+ Urban VIII forbade it in 1639

+ Benedict XIV forbade it in 1741

+ Pius VII demanded of the Congress of Vienna, in 1815, the suppression of the slave trade

+ Gregory XVI condemned it in 1839

+ In the Bull of Canonization of the Jesuit Peter Claver, one of the most illustrious adversaries of slavery, Pius IX branded the “supreme villainy” (summum nefas) of the slave traders.

+ Leo XIII, in 1888, addressed a letter to the Brazilian bishops, exhorting them to banish from their country the remnants of slavery — a letter to which the bishops responded with their most energetic efforts, and some generous slave-owners by freeing their slaves in a body, as in the first ages of the Church.

As I said to begin with, it’s probably too complicated a subject to answer without doing a fair amount of research, but this is what I’ve read so far.
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April 30, 2012 7:13pm
cha

Colossians 3:22:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord
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April 30, 2012 7:14pm
Griff

Wiki
Young Earth creationism (YEC) is the religious belief[1] that the Universe, Earth, and all life on Earth were created by direct acts of the Abrahamic God during a relatively short period, sometime between 5,700 and 10,000 years ago.[2] Its primary adherents are Christians and Jews[3] who believe that God created the Earth in six 24-hour days, taking a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative as a basis for their beliefs.[4][5]

“When asked for their views on the origin and development of human beings, between 40% and 50% of adults in the United States say they share the beliefs of young Earth creationism, depending on the poll”

Well fuck me seems that the f undies in this “godzown country”
Have titanically different beliefs about creation as the teaming masses of f undies in the good old USA.
Why don’t we have a religious war over it. such a difference should be worth at least a few high profile excommunications and cutting of all diplomatic relations
Oh thats right Christians no longer have any say at all in nz
Thank GOD for that
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April 30, 2012 7:21pm
Pauleastbay

.
krazykiwi (7,809) Says:

April 30th, 2012 at 7:06 pm
…
to attempt to cast modern day Christians as supportive of evil that existed 200 years ago is somewhat disingenuous…………………………….

The old I’m more christian than them argument ah. …….. now thats disengenuous.

The thing is you have your belief system good on you , I have mine, but please don’t use your belief system as backing for an argument.

I happen to believe that a certain rock off our coast is higher in the chain than me but I’m not going to attempt to use that as proof to back any argument here or any where
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April 30, 2012 7:24pm
Fletch

If you want an in-depth answer on slavery and Christianity, check out these links (a lot of reading) –

http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslave.html

http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslavent.html

The following may be easier to read, as it is in the form of refuting someone else’s post, point-by-point –

http://socrates58.blogspot.co.nz/2007/03/dialogue-reflections-on-crusades.html

The Catholic Church unhesitatingly condemned racial slavery as soon as it began. In 1435, six decades before Columbus sailed, Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of the black natives of the Canary Islands, and ordered their European masters to manumit the enslaved within 15 days, under pain of excommunication. In 1537, Pope Paul III condemned the enslavement of West Indian and South American natives, and explicitly attributed that evil, “unheard of before now,” to “the enemy of the human race,” Satan.

In May 1537 (DS 1495) Pope Paul III wrote to the Archbishop of Toledo:

It has come to our ears. . . that Charles [V] the [Holy] Roman Emperor … to repress those who, eager for gain have an inhuman attitude to the human race, has prohibited by public edict that anyone should presume to reduce to slavery the Western or Southern Indians. … we give orders that. . . to all and each one of any dignity whatsoever … you give strict orders under penalty of automatic excommunication … that they must not in any way presume to reduce the Indians we mentioned into slavery …

Papal condemnations of slavery were repeated by Popes Gregory XIV (1591), Urban VIII (1639), Innocent XI (1686), Benedict XIV (1741), and Piux VII (1815). In 1839, Pope Gregory XVI wrote,

We, by apostolic authority, warn and strongly exhort… that no one in the future dare to bother unjustly, despoil of their possessions, or reduce to slavery Indians, Blacks or other such peoples.

So who was more “enlightened”?: the slave-holding, Unitarian Thomas Jefferson, or the Catholic Church (popes) of 873, 1435, and 1537? Once again, the truth is far different from the myth. You can blame the early Protestants, perhaps (and this might explain the late maintenance of the evil in the Baptist / Methodist / Presbyterian Bible Belt South), but your argument against the Catholic Church falls flat.
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April 30, 2012 7:27pm
mikenmild

Well, obviously the Catholic Church lacked influence over the Spanish as they conquered South America and enslaved the people there. At least the Popes issued a few edicts though…
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April 30, 2012 7:30pm
Johnboy

Although most authors argue that there has been a shift in Church teaching over the last two millennia from acceptance and toleration of slavery to opposition, some Catholic writers reject this claim, insisting that there has been no such change in the Magisterium. One reason for this insistence is that authors who argue that the Magisterium has changed have pointed to this purported shift in teaching as setting a precedent that Church teaching has changed to be compatible with changes in social mores and morality.[117] As a result, historical interpretation of the Church’s teaching on slavery over the last two millennia has become controversial between those who would change the Church’s teaching in other areas and those who resist such changes— in effect, a debate between those who hold to the Church’s doctrine of indefectibility and those that reject the Church’s claims.

Cardinal Avery Dulles makes the following observations about the Catholic Church and the institution of slavery

For many centuries the Church was part of a slave-holding society.
The popes themselves held slaves, including at times hundreds of Muslim captives to man their galleys.
Throughout Christian antiquity and the Middle Ages, theologians generally followed St. Augustine in holding that although slavery was not written into the natural moral law it was not absolutely forbidden by that law.
St. Thomas Aquinas, Luther, and Calvin were all Augustinian on this point. Although the subjection of one person to another (servitus) was not part of the primary intention of the natural law, St. Thomas taught, it was appropriate and socially useful in a world impaired by original sin.
No Father or Doctor of the Church was an unqualified abolitionist.
No pope or council ever made a sweeping condemnation of slavery as such.
But they constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources.[18]

Theologian Laennec Hurbon asserted that no Pope before 1890 condemned all forms of slavery, asserting that, “. .. one can search in vain through the interventions of the Holy See-those of Pius V, Urban VIII and Benedict XIV-for any condemnation of the actual principle of slavery.”[118]

In a modern work that denies any fundamental change in the church’s teaching over the centuries, Father Joel Panzer writes:

The development of [the Church’s teaching regarding slavery] over the span of nearly five centuries was occasioned by the unique and illicit form of servitude that accompanied the Age of Discovery. The just titles to servitude were not rejected by the Church, but rather were tolerated for many reasons. This in no way invalidates the clear and consistent teaching against the unjust slavery that came to prevail in Africa and the Western Hemisphere, first in Central and South America and then in the United States, for approximately four centuries.[118]

The “servitude” that Panzer describes allows, subject to certain conditions, the buying, selling and exchange of other human beings as described in the Holy Office decree of 1866 and he believes this has been the constant teaching of Popes down through the ages.[119] Maxwell (1975) argues against a very rigid understanding of Papal texts, and their immutability, noting that torture was also once sanctioned by Papal decree.[120] Pope John Paul II in 1995 “in the name of the whole Church” forbade the selling of women and children.[121]

In his 1975 work on slavery, John F. Maxwell wrote that the Church did not correct its teaching on the moral legitimacy of slavery until 1965, with the publication, from the Second Vatican Council, of Gaudium et Spes (The Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World).[118] Judge John T. Noonan, Jr. has argued that slavery is one of the areas in which the Church has changed its moral teaching to suit the times, and that this change did not take place until 1890 when, he asserted, the Church finally condemned the institution of slavery, lagging behind laws which had already been enacted to outlaw the practice.[122] In a book edited by Charles Curran, Diana Hayes also concludes that there was a change in the church’s teaching, which she places in the 1880s.[123]

Dulles characterizes Noonan’s thesis as being that “social change makes it possible for Christians to overcome the blindness that had previously afflicted their moral vision”. According to Dulles, Noonan finds that the Church has changed its doctrine, in many cases, effecting “an about-face, repudiating the erroneous past teaching of the magisterium itself.”[18] However, Dulles asserts that Noonan “fails to establish that the Church has reversed her teaching in any of the four areas he examines”.

Vic Biorseth argues that “In all of recorded history, there is no such thing as a matter of faith and morals on which the Holy Roman Catholic Church has ever changed its teaching.”[124] Rodney Stark presents evidence to refute the allegations that the Catholic Church did not oppose slavery until relatively recently.[9] Stark makes no mention in his essay of the pro-slavery texts issued by Popes in the past nor does Father Panzer who he uses as a source. Maxwell (1975) asserts that it has been difficult for Catholic historians to write impartially on this subject. By way of example he notes texts of Pope Leo XIII who singled out for praise twelve previous Popes who made every effort to end slavery. Maxwell then points out that five of the mentioned Popes actually authorized slavery but suggests the error could be due to the Popes “ghost writers”. Hugh Thomas, author of “The Slave Trade” is critical of the New Catholic Encyclopedia through its “misleading” account of Papal condemnation of slavery.[125] Maxwell (1975) describes the situation as the historical “whitewashing” of the Churches involvement in slavery.[126]

Father John Francis Maxwell in 1975 published “The Catholic Church and Slavery”, a book that was the product of seven years research. It recorded the instances were slavery was sanctioned by Councils and Popes and also censures and prohibitions that have been recorded throughout the history of the Church. He explains what appears to the layman, not familiar with the intricacies of Church teaching and law, that what seems contradictory teaching, often involving the same Pope, is actually only a reflection of the common and longstanding concept of permissible “just slavery”, and “unjust slavery” which was subject to condemnation. He shows by numerous examples from Council and Papal documents that “just slavery” was always an acceptable part of Catholic teaching right up until the end of the 19th century when the first steps were taken to place all forms of slavery under the ban. Since “just” slavery had been allowed by previous Councils and Popes he saw the declaration of slavery as an unconditional “infamy” in the Second Vatican Council pastoral constitution “Gaudium et spes” as a correction to what had been previously been allowed, but not promulgated as infallible teaching. Pope John Paul II in his encyclical “EVANGELIUM VITAE” (1995),when repeating the list of infamies that included slavery, prefaced the passage in “Gaudium es spes” with “ ..Thirty years later, taking up the words of the Council and with the same forcefulness I repeat that condemnation in the name of the whole Church, certain that I am interpreting the genuine sentiment of every upright conscience..”
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