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March 6, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 6 March 2012

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General Debate

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mikenmild

Well,David, if Gareth Hughes really said that then he is pretty ignorant. Most people know that the British had very little effective military force in NZ in 1840. The conquest came later; the Treaty was an agreement – to what we are still arguing about.
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March 6, 2012 7:55pm
nasska

Possible explanation for there being no male agony aunts:

Dear Jim,

Last week I left for work as normal but having only gone a mile or so, my car broke down. I had to walk home again, and on arriving home I found my 16 year old babysitter handcuffed to the bed in her school uniform with my husband bent over her!I am devastated! Can you help?

Sally.

Dear Sally,

A common cause for this is dirt in your carburettor. Don’t let your fuel drop too low in the tank.Hope this helps.

Jim.
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March 6, 2012 8:01pm
David Garrett

Mikey: Google it son…Gareth’s maiden speech or search the date and then go and READ Hansard instead of sitting in front of your computer checking “sources” like Wikipedia…

And the British didnt have “very little effective military force..in 1840” they had NONE…mainly because the Colonial Office didnt want a bar of paying for any sort of garrison in a colony as far away as it was possible to be from HQ, with no resources that they thought important. Try Paul Moon’s “The Newest Country in the World”.. it doesnt have too many big words…you might just learn something.
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March 6, 2012 8:03pm
David Garrett

By the way, does anyone know what’s happened to my old sparring partner Rex Widerstrom?? Havent seen him here for ages…Hope he’s not in jail again…nasty places those WA jails…apparently…
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March 6, 2012 8:09pm
mikenmild

Read that one David. I was actually agreeing with you. The only British force in NZ in 1840 was HMS Herald.
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March 6, 2012 8:12pm
Nostalgia-NZ

“very little effective military force..in 1840″
They didn’t need it, they merely needed to aid and abet old rivalries, then pick over the bones.
But it was perhaps the good charity, and best intentions of good and just behaviour, that found them floundering on all fronts as we are today.
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March 6, 2012 8:16pm
nasska

David Garrett

Haven’t seen hide nor hair of Rex anywhere on the parts of the web I visit.

I don’t think he’s posted here since about last August.
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March 6, 2012 8:21pm
David Garrett

MM: Excuse my rudeness. I realise that on that issue at least, you were agreeing with me. But please do yourself a favour and look up Gareth’s maiden speech….to say I was dumbstruck at what I was hearing would not be an understatement.

Nasska: Odd eh? he must be… ah…in a place without internet access…He was actually a pretty knowledgeable guy with some good points to make when he wasn’t foaming at the mouth…
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March 6, 2012 8:26pm
Leaping Jimmy

essentially your are saying that most NZers would not see the Treaty as important. Can you reconcile that with the political failure of anyone who espouses that view?

No I’m not saying that mm. I’m saying most NZer’s don’t assign it as a cornerstone of our constitution the same way Maori and pwogwessives do, in that the latter regard it as the NZ equivalent of the US Declaration of Independence, and in fact, Maori and pwogwessives combined, aren’t most NZer’s, however much you’d like to pretend you do actually reflect our views. You don’t. Period.

Most people who think in this country do in fact, view the titiriti as “important” simply because it is the basis of the process of resolution of HISTORICAL injustices THAT ALL RECOGNISE. Most of us all recognise however that said injustices were historical and puzzle over why the fuck Maori can’t get their shit together in 2012, given it’s not like that, anymore.

At the same time however unlike Maori and pwogwessives, most of us do not approve of tiriti pwinciples being embedded in all sorts of laws as if it was a constitutional foundation stone, simply because it IS NOT a constitutional foundation stone. It just isn’t. To most of us, it’s a temporary measure which we hope is going to go away and not be continually discussed for evermore, in the fullness of time.

Try not to be so disingenuous next time, won’t you mm.
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March 6, 2012 8:28pm
Griff

We have a secular government there is no place in our constitutional framework for enshrining the spiritual beliefs of a stone age people
All this talk of a spiritual connection has no more weight then then the breath it was expelled on .
When it comes to constitutional reform One man one vote all votes equal is not on the table
No veto No Upperhouse no racist constitutional laws
Under mmp there is no longer a reason for Maori sets
they should expire with the treaty claims by 2014
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March 6, 2012 8:38pm
nasska

David Garrett

Rex had some fixed ideas on things & once he’d made up his mind he wasn’t in a hurry to change it. For all that, as you say, he was an expert in his field. I find reading Greg Newbold similar……I mightn’t see everything his way but his experiences have shaped a keen mind.
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March 6, 2012 8:41pm
wiseowl

Have to say I agree with DG all the way on the TOW. It is indeed M&m that does not get it and would have us believe in fairy tales.

What is happening at the present time is an absolute tragedy.I am dismayed at the way kiwis rollover and give in to the ongoing destruction of this fine country.JK appears to have no idea of the horrendous situation he is going to leave behind.
Kiwis should be marching in the streets over the Cooke decision and the havoc that has been caused by principles that should not exist.
Is there a politician with enough intestinal fortitude to stand up to this BS?

I doubt it.
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March 6, 2012 8:47pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Leaping Jimmy
8.28

Smell the roses, the ‘temporary measure’ is the millstone around your neck. The very same stone you were given in exchange for muskets to bind yourself to as you jumped in the lake. And I sincerely hope that is why you decided to re-brand yourself as Leaping Jimmy, resisting at the same time any inclination to in fact call yourself ‘leaping Jimmy Cricket’ or even ‘holy tornado’ in case of intemperate weather.
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March 6, 2012 8:48pm
Leaping Jimmy

Nostalgia, I was talking about how people in this country perceive the tiriti, not how I think it will pan out. Give me some respect FFS.

You’d have to be a drop-dead mental to hallucinate Te Tiriti is going to disappear from the framework anytime soon. Duh.

All I was saying was, that is what most people would like it to do and, given, for example, TVNZ One News still gets 750k viewers every night, it’s reasonable to infer that’s what most people in this country with their naive, childish shallow political mindsets, think it will do, eventually.

Remember this in future please whenever you read one of my comments. Just because I say something is in fact the case, does not mean I approve of it and it does not mean I think that, either. If I do think either of those things, I normally make it quite clear that is what I think.
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March 6, 2012 9:00pm
Leaping Jimmy

Edit: “Just because I say ~~something~~ a political phenomena is in fact the case,…”
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March 6, 2012 9:05pm
nasska

The amazing part of the farce that the Treaty has become is the blind trust the foot soldiers of the cause have in their venal leaders. The unwashed & the protestors, mostly welfare dependent, who do the screaming are liberal whites & poor Maori. The leaders & benefactors of the Treaty largesse are tribal leaders & Maori elite.

Not a crumb of the Treaty payouts will benefit the vast majority of Maori simply because they are divorced by time & distance from their tribal roots. Maori may be 15% of the population but those who live the high life thanks to Ti Tiriti wouldn’t even be 1%.

They’ve taken the socialists & their own people for a ride & are continuing to do so courtesy of the mugs.
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March 6, 2012 9:05pm
Nostalgia-NZ

Leaping Jimmy
9.00 exactly

Thanks for all your compliments, and pleased to know that when you jumped in the lake it was only 2ft 13in.
How’s it going with that new fancy handle by the way, sleeping better? I suspect you must have anguished with the decision of going from Reid to leaping about like a cricket.
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March 6, 2012 9:14pm
Leaping Jimmy

I was getting bored with my own name nasska and felt I’d been held back by the need to be all polite under my real name which really depressed me. Leaping Jimmy used to be my gaming name and since I used to so enjoy blasting my opposition to smithereens while leaping all over the place it seemed aposite. Jimmy comes from Jimmy Olsen – Superman is a very handy friend you see, especially when the lefties have you bailed up in a corner.

The alternative was Captain Blood but I think I’ll wait till Jimmy gets to 20k then introduce him. He’s really nasty and I suspect DPF would just ban him straight away, if I let him loose right now.
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March 6, 2012 9:29pm
Griff

The problems around the treaty
Are not geting resolved in a hurry. Entreating another side to the debate at least gets it aired. Many here would feel a sense of unease in the direction taken by successive governments towards te triti. The demise of act has left the right liberal side without a voice. Probably because its voice is often a cacophony of conflicting views!
The wishers of the majority still count in this democracy Hopefully any changes to our constitution will go to referendum not a vote in the House.
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March 6, 2012 9:38pm
nasska

LJ

I read the explanation of the new pseudonym you made over the weekend. Quite a let down as I already had a comment ready in my mind giving my version of the background of the new name.

It was far better!
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March 6, 2012 9:40pm
Leaping Jimmy

Hopefully any changes to our constitution will go to referendum not a vote in the House.

Well, MMP was a referendum that wasn’t, thanks to a universal desire amongst the politicians not to make it an issue.

Bastards.

Who the fuck do they think they are, to play with our electoral system.

It was quite obvious all through the campaign none of them wanted a real debate. Quite obvious. And lo, there wasn’t. And don’t fucking tell me the pathetic media coverage compensated for the complex debate which people should, rightly if this was a proper country, have been exposed to, for months.

Imagine what sort of debate for example we would have been exposed to, if say the abolition of Te Tiriti was a referendum on the table? Hysteria 24/7/365 wouldn’t begin to describe it. Would it.

Yet something much more fundamental than Te Tiriti, our democratic system, our precious form of govt, was totally ignored by both the politicians from all sides and the media. And please, don’t insult us by pointing to the few shows and politicians that did cover it briefly. They mean nothing. They were lip service only there so they could be pointed to lest someone have the temerity to raise the question I just did. The whole thing was a clayton’s referendum. I’m only surprised they didn’t just give us a choice between facism and MMP, the conclusion they wanted everyone to draw was that obvious. Perhaps they realised if they did that, even Walrus and Campbell may have become mildly suspicious and then the reef fish might begin to awaken.

Nostalgia, sorry for the mistaken identity in my 9:29.

Nasska, bugger. Should have let the mystery continue.
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March 6, 2012 9:56pm
Viking2

RADICAL FORCES PLAN TO REPLACE OUR CONSTITUTION

By agreeing to the Maori Party’s demand for a Constitutional Review – as part of their 2008 and 2011 Confidence and Supply Agreements – the National Party is advancing the agenda of radical forces determined to change our constitutional arrangements in their favour. Their goal is to elevate the Treaty of Waitangi into ‘supreme’ law to give tribal members superior rights and privileges that would be guaranteed forever.

http://www.nzcpr.com/
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March 6, 2012 10:20pm
Griff

I think most would have realized the total count give away a great deal
I done a double take when you first posted Some one so erudite yet left field I would have noticed prior.
Next time don’t tell the fall out is quite interesting
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March 6, 2012 10:24pm
Griff

http://bostonglobe.com/news/world/2012/03/06/mccain-calls-for-lead-syria-airstrikes/1EugpZ1gkZXHkJTAZGUgSL/story.html
US should begin air attacks on Assad’s troops, McCain says
Presses Obama to lead Syrian neighbors in effort

USA most warmongering nation in the last century and this. They always pay the price for meddling yet they do not learn

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17268478
Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu has said time is running out to put a stop to Iran’s nuclear programme.
Speaking to a pro-Israel conference in the US, Mr Netanyahu said he could not allow his people to “live in the shadow of annihilation”.

Drumming up support for a preemptive nuclear strike?
Very hard for them to strike conventional weapons to many targets, to well protected and to far.
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March 6, 2012 10:45pm
questions

David Garret you are a thick fuck.

(with out going back over the posts since 7pm) it has been clearly explained and demonstrated to you what a living document is, and how the US Constitution is a living document. You can harp on all you like about PC this and leftist that but it is clear you are clueless.

It is explained to you above, that when the Constitution was written, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal” didn’t apply to all men, namely black slaves. Now days, with the abolition of slavery (some thing that I’d imagine rather irks you?), this applies to all.

The words on the page have not changed, the meaning has.

Get that through your thick skull.
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March 7, 2012 1:36am
Manolo

Two crooks join forces: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-05/bill-clinton-agrees-to-join-obama-fundraisers.html
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March 7, 2012 5:03am
Joseph Carpenter

Questions @ 1.36am you thick fuck: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal…” etc is from the Declaration of Independence NOT the US Constitution, get that through your thick skull.

And the US Constitution is definitely not a “living document” (which is a nonsensical term in itself, these are our fundamental laws not the “Never-ending Story”), the actual document can only be changed by the involved processes set out in the Constitution itself for an Amendment and such changes require a “super mandate” to be ratified, to date I believe there have been over 10,000+ proposed amendments introduced to Congress but only 17 have been adopted in 223 years (since the original Bill of Rights). And as for our historic constitutional documents, Magna Carta, Petition of Right, Habeas Corpus, Bill of Rights, Act of Settlement, Parliament Acts, various Reform and Representation Acts, Statute of Westminster etc none have ever been altered or rewritten.
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March 7, 2012 6:28am
Viking2

Is Braid losing his marbles. Consorting with the devil himself.?

Union, business groups meet over Auckland port
JENNY KEOWN
Last updated 05:00 07/03/2012

A unique alliance of union and business groups is requesting a meeting with Auckland Mayor Len Brown on the basis it had “overwhelming support” for its plan to encourage the council to adopt a more progressive approach to the ownership of the port.

The coalition met yesterday and drafted a charter for the port around a “triple-bottom lined” approach which it said reflected the perspective of Auckland citizens, businesses, and port workers.

The group includes Mainfreight group managing director Don Braid, Council of Trade Unions president Helen Kelly, and Michael Lorimer, director of corporate finance consultancy Grant Samuel.

Sorry Mr Braid but loses my respect. You never ever go to bed with bullies.
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March 7, 2012 7:01am
Manolo

About time: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/6534196/Plug-pulled-on-Hook-of-Maui-artwork
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March 7, 2012 7:41am
mikenmild

I liked the hook idea better than those stupid proposals for the Wellywood sign etc, but its cost was getting way out of control. We are very lucky in Wellington with some of the fabulous sculptures that have appeared in recent years. A great piece of art near the city entrance would be great and hopefully it can happen one day.
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March 7, 2012 7:53am

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