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March 4, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 4 March 2012

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Dave Mann

Phew…! Summer’s over, then…!
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March 4, 2012 8:35am
Yvette

MMP
For your consideration I would invite you have a look at
http://youtu.be/fuBgMRg5z9I
“Having ‘Voting Values’ could allow Party Votes to be applied to an Electorate Members only MMP system” – making every member a publicly-voted-for member responsible to an electorate as well as a party.

This example uses 70 electorate seats, and while the size of Parliament and Maori representation will not be reviewed, the concept here could be applied to any number of Electorate MPs – 120, 100, 70 or even just the leader of each party which passes a thresh-hold.

Perhaps reduce the electorates to 60 but vote for two electorate members from each to give a 120 member Parliament, plus a party vote to translate to members ‘voting values’.

This idea has been described as ‘proportional first-past-the-post’, but that is what MMP is.

Regarding any perceived complexity, a simple computer programme could handle any variance from the usual party block voting. Or a smart kid with a Warehouse calculator could work it out.
[Each of the current 121 members of course has a 0.826446280992 vote.]

I just feel that not all solutions to an electorate/party voting system have been thoroughly considered.
Like an engine I once saw on a cover of Mechanix Illustrated, where one horizontal piston produced the compression for a piston opposite it, always struck me as very innovative thinking compared to the ordinary straight up and down version.
[Johnboy would want a more feminine, or more mouflon, example]
But MMP needs to think outside the cylinder.

Yvette
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March 4, 2012 8:41am
Scott Chris

Bernard Hickey Again Suggests Quantitative Easing:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10789589

➡ “there’s a risk of generating inflation – but only if resources are fully employed”
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March 4, 2012 8:52am
Sonny Blount

Yvette, it’s not really necessary to handle it in such a confusing manner.

Throughout MMP we have never needed any more than 18 list MPs added to any parties electorate counts to achieve proportionality.

So what we need to do is have a relationship of 75% of MPs as electorate members and 25% of list members (90/30), and to change the threshold for list seats to a number of electorate wins (2 IMO) from a party vote percentage. This is to prevent a politcal movement from splitting into 2 parties, 1 for electorate votes and 1 for party votes.

With an increase in the number of electorates you will get a closer relationship between the number of seats won and the party vote (ie the Maori party overhang will shrink), and it will be easier for 3rd parties to win them.
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March 4, 2012 8:58am
Other_Andy

The proper terminology approved by Minitrue is now “climate change”.

As predicted before, the proper terminology approved by Minitrue is now “climate change”.
Nobody can deny Climate change as, well, Climate Change is happening and has always happened.
We will of course still blame the 0.117% anthropogenic CO2 in the Earth’s atmosphere. We will still protest the use of evil hydrocarbons, driving up the price, and we will still insist people pay extra taxes.

From the NYT:

If anything, the exceptional snowstorms of last winter and the uncommon gentleness of this one are further evidence of global warming, which is characterized by extreme and erratic weather patterns rather than an unceasing rise of the planet’s temperature.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/opinion/sunday/the-best-part-about-global-warming.html?_r=2&hp

Temperatures are no longer rising because of higher CO2 levels.
The IPCC statement that that “during the 21st century the global surface temperature is likely to rise a further 1.1 to 2.9 °C (2 to 5.2 °F) for the lowest emissions scenario and 2.4 to 6.4 °C (4.3 to 11.5 °F) for the highest” will be erased .
Day by day and almost minute by minute the past will be brought up to date. In this way every prediction made will be shown by documentary evidence to have been correct; any item of news, or any expression of opinion, which conflicts with the needs of the movement, will not be allowed to remain on record. All history is a palimpsest, scraped clean and re-inscribed exactly as often as is necessary.

Any change in the weather event is now further proof of climate change and is caused by evil white western (And probably male Christians) humans polluting Mother Gaia’s atmosphere with anthropogenic CO2.
Colder\warmer winters, colder\warmer summers, sea levels rising\falling, sea ice growing\diminishing, droughts\floods……..

If all accept the lie which the movement imposes-if all records tell the same tale-then the lie will pass into history and becomes truth. ‘Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.’
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March 4, 2012 8:58am
mikenmild

Just in case you thought NZ counted for anything:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6519429/WikiLeaks-proves-brutal-US-diplomacy
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March 4, 2012 9:01am
bhudson

I think Hickey is being somewhat flexible with his terminology. He equates Quantitative Easing with “printing money”. That is not accurate.

Printing money is using the newly minted money to pay off govt debt or to finance govt deficits (i.e. finance govt spending.)

Quantitatve Easing is used to stimulate the economy through providing additional money for private banks to lend out (and is achieved through the central bank buying up financial assets – which it also will divest itself of when the economy has recovered.)

Hickey is proposing that the govt prints money so that it can spend it on public projects. He is not proposing Quantitative Easing. It does appear, however, that he is trying to legitimise his approach by conflating it with Quantitative Easing.
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March 4, 2012 9:11am
Leaping Jimmy

Just in case you thought NZ counted for anything:

mm, firstly that was from Stratfor internal discussions not the US State Dept and secondly if anyone didn’t already know those opinions weren’t widely held then duh.

It’s not much of a revelation except to people who get their “news” from TVNZ/TV3 and it’s a typical hysterical headline from an ignorant sub-editor and a more ignorant journo.

And lastly they missed out a few critical points in that exchange such as ignoring the potential of the Great South Basin as a strategic imperative. If that lives up to its potential then its the largest oil reservoir in the Southern Hemisphere and if that’s not strategic then what is.
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March 4, 2012 9:14am
tom hunter

Tough comments indeed:

WikiLeaks’ latest hoard of leaked emails from the American intelligence think-tank Stratfor usually mentions New Zealand in terms of contempt.

“When it comes to geopolitical importance,” Stratfor analyst Chris Farnham wrote to colleague William Hobart in September last year, “it doesn’t get much f—ing lower than New Zealand.” Hobart had a similar view. “What possible strategic use is that little part of the world to f—ing anyone??!!” he wrote to Farnham.

The emails give a good idea of how American and Australian political insiders, working for a company once called “the shadow CIA”, view New Zealand. Stratfor sells intelligence to government agencies and big corporations, and has close ties with the US government and military.

Perhaps little Nicky should read what the associate editor of The Atlantic, Max Fisher, had to say: Stratfor Is a Joke and So Is Wikileaks for Taking It Seriously:

It’s true that Stratfor employs on-the-ground researchers. They are not spies. On today’s Wikileaks release, one Middle East-based NGO worker noted on Twitter that when she met Stratfor’s man in Cairo, he spoke no Arabic, had never been to Egypt before, and had to ask her for directions to Tahrir Square. Stratfor also sometimes pays “sources” for information. Wikileaks calls this “secret cash bribes,” hints that this might violate the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, and demands “political oversight.”

For comparison’s sake, The Atlantic often sends our agents into such dangerous locales as Iran or Syria. We call these men and women “reporters.” Much like Statfor’s agents, they collect intelligence, some of it secret, and then relay it back to us so that we may pass it on to our clients, whom we call “subscribers.” Also like Stratfor, The Atlantic sometimes issues “secret cash bribes” to on-the-ground sources, whom we call “freelance writers.” We also prefer to keep their cash bribes (“writer’s fees”) secret, and sometimes these sources are even anonymous.

Stratfor. Wikileaks. Nicky Hager. Oh – and Stuff.

Analytical and intellectual powerhouses all.
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March 4, 2012 9:17am
mikenmild

Thanks Tom. So Stratfor’s opinions on NZ wouldn’t reflect those of US policymakers?
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March 4, 2012 9:22am
mavxp

just read the stuff article on the wikileaks from a strategic consultancy (mikenmild links to above). The headline is making it look like the official US opinion, (they may coincidentally be similar or even the same, but this is a consultancy that sells information to the US Govt. NZ Govt and businesses), essentially they are complaining NZ is not great for their intel selling business. It’s simply not a regional hotspot strategically, and that doesn’t sell.

I think most NZers would be fine with that. In fact Helen Clark (in)famously stated “we live in a benign strategic environment”, as justification for spending less on the military in an otherwise big expansion of government during the 2000s.
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March 4, 2012 9:22am
peterwn

Printing money – Major Douglas (founder of Social Credit in Canada) would be proud of Bernard Hickey. Of course the big joke here id printing money would benefit property investors (whom he despises) over term deposit savers.
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March 4, 2012 9:28am
Put it away

Another miserable day. Global warming continues to disappoint.
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March 4, 2012 9:31am
Pete George

“we live in a benign strategic environment”

I don’t care if others thing we’re insignificant, I think that’s a major plus about New Zealand. If we were strategically important we’d get more attempts at political and military interference.
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March 4, 2012 9:39am
niggly

More larf’s from one time wanna-be anarchist Anthony Hubbard and wanna-be-taken-so-seriously-to-match-his-large-ego, Little Nicky ie their spin on some correspondance between various Statfor analyst’s. Note that there is no context to what is being said (perhaps it would be nice if SST or Nicky Hager published the full correspondance somewhere) as some of it is ho-hum email chat, like one may do when panning a movie to their friends etc. Woppee do.

What’s really interesting to me, is if Anthony and Nicky want NZ’ers to take their piece seriously, then ok then I will play their game:

*So A&N’s piece confirms that the 1980’s Anti-Nuclear protest’s against NZ’s involvment ANZUS was built on a lie. At the time (in fact even back as far as the 70’s) the peaceniks scared the public by saying any visiting US Warship would make NZ a nuclear target. (This was Centre-piece, I remember the placards etc).

However A&N’s piece quotes an analyst as saying “No one/USSR is going to attack NZ unless the US is basing strategic weapons there.” Now strategic weapons would be intercontinental missiles (ICBM’s) – silos and B52/B1 bombers – and sub launched ICBM’s (Polaris and others at the time etc). Now the USA never wanted to base such weapons in NZ/Australia.

(Point of clarification, those US nuclear powered subs that used to visit Auckland were the attack subs that protected the Aircraft Carrier battle groups, not the ICBM types – those ones’ locations were never disclosed hence would never visit a place like NZ or Aust or just about anywhere for that matter for their location would be blown etc).

* “NZ is only under threat if Australia is under threat and we are never going to trash ANZUS so NZ can freeride off Australia and appease the domestic audience.”

Again the hypocrisy of Lange, Labour and the peace-niks exposed. They knew that NZ would always be safe in the Cold War & hence could whip up anti-US sentiment. It wouldn’t be until someone attacked Australia that NZ would have to worry and who the hell had amphibious forces that could attack Australia in the first place?

So thanks Nicky and Wikileaks for exposing the lies of the so-called Peace Movement, the leadership of whom manipulated public opinion against the only Country in the world that could actually protect NZ if the international stage did fall apart. Peace Movement’s aim was to weaken the Western alliance by picking off states including NZ. Cheers Nicky for clarifying your hypocrisy at the time and your continued hypocrisy to this very day.
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March 4, 2012 9:49am
Manolo

Heating up: http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/03/02/daylight_new_film_blasts_obamas_israel_record
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March 4, 2012 9:50am
Pete George

Danyl has a dig at Duncan but also at menial mentality.

We used to have an economy where even menial jobs had a career path. You worked in a factory and could aspire to a position as shift foreman, or found clerical work and eventually became head typist, etc, but those types of jobs don’t exist any more.

Most menial works didn’t pursue careers, many continued in the same jobs throughout their lives.

Now we just have a large pool of menial workers who earn very low salaries and are among the first to lose their jobs in each economic downturn.

The number of menial jobs has diminished substantially, especialy manual labour, factory work etc

That’s not a big problem if you’re working one of those menial jobs when you’re a student expecting to transition into a high-earning career in the knowledge economy, but it’s a grim prospect if you’re a solo-mum anticipating decades of low-paid insecure menial work once you rejoin the labour market.

That’s why there are attempts to improve education and training.

But what’s more grim – facing decades of low paid work, or decades of lower handed out benefits? At least making an attempt at supporting oneself, or sitting back and accepting state charity? Most people see the latter as grim, in more than one way.
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March 4, 2012 9:55am
tvb

bhudsen who are you trying to fool. Of course QE is printing money to buy up financial assets. It may be a prudent way of doing it instead of simply using it to finance the Government though in a round about way that is what it is doing. We have not explored this yet in NZ but the day is coming. From memory Bob Tizard did it in a small way in the mid 1970’s when he was Minister of Finance.
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March 4, 2012 10:11am
Manolo

From memory Bob Tizard did it in a small way in the mid 1970′s when he was Minister of Finance.

Bob Tizard, the choleric and ill-tempered one? The more the reason not to repeat the same mistake.
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March 4, 2012 10:15am
Scott Chris

bhudson – Yes the terminology is a bit loose, but there is a good reason for bypassing the banks, who tend to generate enormous profits for themselves with all the free money created by quantitative easing at the expense of the whole economic system. On the other hand, the banks won’t like the printing of money, because it competes unfairly with their lending business, so I don’t see it happening somehow.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

>>”When it comes to geopolitical importance,” Stratfor analyst Chris Farnham wrote to colleague William Hobart in September last year, “it doesn’t get much f—ing lower than New Zealand.”

I fail to see the so called contempt. It’s a frank statement of fact. Once USSR collapsed and the Frogs quit testing under Mururoa, NZ’s relative geopolitical importance evaporated.
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March 4, 2012 10:20am
Viking2

FARMS OFFERED FOR SALE INDIVIDUALLY IN ASIA

Potential New Zealand buyers were told the 16 Crafar farms could only be sold profitably by bundling them together but the Star-Times has now learned the farms were advertised for sale INDIVIDUALLY in China and Singapore.

The advertisements, in the South China Morning Post and Singapore’s Straits Times, emerged in documents released to the Sunday Star-Times by the Overseas Investment Office under the Official Information Act.

The ads read: “One of the largest and most highly anticipated rural portfolios to ever come to the market in New Zealand is presented for sale. A significant opportunity to invest in New Zealand’s rural and dairy sector. Farms are for sale individually or as a portfolio.”

Bayleys Real Estate was handling the sale, and its representatives were advertised as being in Singapore on May 3-5, and Hong Kong from May 5-8, 2010.

So it seems all along Westpac, Bayleys, Stiasny and tge Govt. were in collusion about selling the Crafar farms to the Chinese. Was the deal part of the FTA with china?
Key looking not at all good and more to the point losing his farming base even more.
Time really that farmer woke up and realised the Nats. abandoned them for the metro two elections ago.
But farmers seem to be NATURALLY THICK when it comes to politics.

more and much ,more here.:http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6519680/Heartland-backlash-over-Crafar-farm-fallout
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March 4, 2012 10:24am
bhudson

tvb,

It may be a prudent way of doing it instead of simply using it to finance the Government though in a round about way that is what it is doing.

QE is an injection of money through private banks to stimulate private enterprise. It is not a means to fund public works – that is simply “printing money.” A key feature of QE is the ability to dispose of the financial assets when the economy is righted.

What you are suggesting is the govt can print money to buy financial assets from banks so that those banks can then lend the money back to the govt so that the govt and then spend it on some stuff?

I am not trying to fool anyone, but if Hickey is trying to suggest we do that then it is sheer lunacy (even more so than simply printing money for public spending)
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March 4, 2012 10:28am
nasska

bhudson

Isn’t Hickey’s proposal a rewrite of the policies of the Social Credit Party circa 1970?
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March 4, 2012 10:40am
Camryn

WTF? “The great betrayal of our poorer folk”

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10789607

Where is the betrayal here? If the lady wants a 3 bedroom house rather than the 1 bedroom house the government is willing to provide, perhaps she should have made choices earlier in life that would allow her to afford one. New Zealand is way, way too soft… which is why 20% of our most productive citizens are paying taxes elsewhere (including myself, sadly).

I understand the difficulty of making do with less space after all these years, but where’s the happiness for all those years of having plenty of space? Instead, she immediately falls into victim mode. That’s the type of thinking that get’s people into strife in the first place. I’m more mad at the NZ Herald than her. She only plays the victim because NZ society has endorsed that mindset… and the Herald is certainly fueling the fire!

And as for the comment that her grandson needs space to play. Um… so does my son, but places with yards are expensive. There are plenty of public parks and they’re just fine. That’s the kind of comment that makes my blood boil. Here I am, basically exiled from New Zealand because the economy is weighed down supporting people who are live a life of poor decision making and self-imposed victimhood.

Thank goodness National is finally doing something about it, albeit the very least they could do!
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March 4, 2012 10:40am
tvb

bhudsen. I do not agree. My understanding QE is the central bank buying up Government debt (probably from financial institutions by creating money. That is printing money and in a round about way financing the Government. I assume the banks either lend the “printed” money or buy up more Government debt.
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March 4, 2012 10:41am
Yvette

to Sonny Blount
re MMP
the suggestion was to eliminate List members, who are
• not voted for or responsible to the public,
• who seem to be able to remain in Parliament after leaving the Party [or the Party leaving them] and
• in some cases to be appointed to Parliament from a Party List although an Electorate has rejected them.

I would suggest a ‘voting values’ system is no more confusing than the alternatives PV, SM or STV
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March 4, 2012 10:48am
bhudson

tvb,

No. QE is the govt printing money to buy financial assets, which transfers new money to the banks, increasing the money supply. The govt then owns financial assets, not debt. (It will sell those financial assets when the economy is righted.)

The intention is for the private banks to lend the new money to private enterprises to help to stimulate the economy.

It is conventional monetary policy that has the govt selling debt (govt bonds) to borrow money for govt spending (which doesn’t increase the supply of money – it merely transfers existing money, or new offshore money, to govt in exchange for the future debt obligation.)
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March 4, 2012 10:50am
bhudson

nasska,

Isn’t Hickey’s proposal a rewrite of the policies of the Social Credit Party circa 1970?

More like the economic policies of the Weimar Republic I think 🙂
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March 4, 2012 10:52am
mikenmild

Boo hoo Camryn, “exiled from New Zealand”. What go-ahead place did you end up in?
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March 4, 2012 10:57am
Viking2

Apparently there is no truth to the rumour that GM Australia are about to revamp their V8 Commodore production plant to build Houseboats. The head honcho said today that depite Australia sinking under water they still saw a future for the V8 around the Bathurst Lake track albeit just the high bits.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/rising-
rivers-force-residents-of-sydneys-northwest-to-evacuate/story-e6frg6n6-1226288316400
Reports had earlier suggested that with the number of roads flooded, dams spilling and rivers turning into vast inland lakes house boat production could be ramped up very quickly to fullfull the demand and allow tradition types of homes for there many refugess from places like Vietnam,Banghladesh,Indian Cost and other Asian swamps.

PM Gillard has set up an emergency committee to expedite the production of these sampan type house boats to cater for their new ethnic citizens that have remained deprived for many years. She expects legislation to be promtly passed, with ex Foreign Minister Rudd leading it in Parliament, to allow the waterways to be clogged with this type of houseboat. PM says that Rudd, extensive knowledge of the Chinese Language and good relationships with the Chinese Diplomatic community made him the ideal person to do this.
Ehtnic Affairs Minister Ms Wong says that because of the current Global Warming, Australia needs to be prepared to handle this housing crisis as it will be many years before the rain stops and the Rivers and Lakes receed to previous levels.

Downtown Australia.
http://cdn7.fotosearch.com/bthumb/CLT/CLT002/q323.jpg

http://cdn5.fotosearch.com/bthumb/ASI/ASI001/AI09270.jpg

http://cdn6.fotosearch.com/bthumb/BYV/BYV202/INTHK012.jpg
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March 4, 2012 11:00am
wat dabney

Quantative Easing is specifically intended to address the collapse in the money supply which followed the banking crisis and is perfectly valid. Ninety years ago the Fed perpetuated a money supply contraction and was responsible for turning a recession into the Great Depression. Bernanke is well known as a student of the Depression and certainly did not repeat that disastrous mistake.

As usual the totally confused Hickey gets it completely wrong.
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March 4, 2012 11:00am
tom hunter

Key looking not at all good and more to the point losing his farming base even more.
Time really that farmer woke up and realised the Nats. abandoned them for the metro two elections ago.

Indeed. I would have thought that retaining the ETS was the first big signal. That time-bomb will explode later this decade when a Labour-Green government enters power and really begins to use it to squeeze blood. All nonsense about AGW aside, the ETS is a perfect future tax vehicle for any left-wing government: a small number of politically irrelevant people who can be demonised from both a class warfare and environmentalist viewpoint. Just take a look at any of the left-blog-sites to see how this veritable creation from thin air is already been used to argue that one part of the economy is being “subsidised” while other sectors are “penalised”: as long as one swallows the ETS philosophy and objective in the first place then those things are true.

But why would Key care? If it fails then it’s a gambit that had to be taken anyway, since the risks of failure are a lot less than opening oneself up to attack on the urban liberal front by abandoning the ETS. It may be lip service in those groups but one should never underestimate that crowd’s self-regard, at least up to the point where they’re not truly wearing the costs themselves.

The same analysis the left will use also applies to the “centre-right” – farmers are a small, politically irrelevant group. Key needs to resuscitate ACT while retaining the urban vote, and the rural sector is probably now the only way of doing it.
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March 4, 2012 11:02am
bonash

I cant see why Peterwn (1598) is so hostile to our government printing the NZ money supply rather than the present system whereby the Australian Banks print our money supply from nothing, as a debt to them and at their whim. I take it he approves of that. It is irrelevant whether this is or is not Social Credit theory (nasska (2,863)) there are plenty of books in print that support a similar line ( “The Web of debt”, Ellen Hodgson Brown: “Healthy Money,Healthy planet” Deirdre Kent, etc). We shouldn’t be arguing history, we should be arguing facts.
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March 4, 2012 11:02am
tom hunter

Boo hoo Camryn, “exiled from New Zealand”. What go-ahead place did you end up in?

Some place where he’s not contributing to the NZ tax base.

Winning!
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March 4, 2012 11:08am
mikenmild

I’m just interested in that line heard from time to time that “I had to leave NZ because etc, etc”. This usually amounts to a move in search of opportunity, due to the difficulty of finding anywhere more freer, liberal or pleasant than NZ.
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March 4, 2012 11:12am
cows4me

“But farmers seem to be NATURALLY THICK when it comes to politics” . Yeah and fucking townies are beacons of light and wisdom. How can farmers have any real input in politics in NZ when our numbers are minor in the overall scheme of things. We have no real voice, we lack a large voter base and we are spread geographically thin throughout the country. Most parties pay lip service to farmers and National can go to the top of the list. Don’t worry V2 farmers are not politically naive they know full well they are getting shafted up the arse our only real choice is to elect the party that will shaft us the most gently.
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March 4, 2012 11:17am
tom hunter

I’ve never taken much notice of petulant sentiments from Americans for example, particularly during the 2004 US elections, when the air was filled with comments to the effect that people would move to Canada of GW was re-elected. But that’s because the proportion of Americans living abroad for any reason is so tiny.

When there are approximately 500,000 New Zealanders living abroad compared to a national population of four million, I tend not to mockingly dismiss such comments as mere petulance.
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March 4, 2012 11:18am
adze

It’s simply because there are compelling economic reasons for skilled workers (and even semi-skilled in some cases) to emigrate. People move to where conditions are more favourable. People left the UK to settle in the colonies because of poor conditions and/or opportunities back home; same with Ireland, India, China, Philippines, and the South Pacific states.
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March 4, 2012 11:26am
Paulus

I looked at the back page of the business section of SST.
Wonderful that Nick Smith is doing something right as Oram is against it.
Why is it that every time I read Oram I know that the opposite is right.
I won’t talk about Harteveldt’s front page comment. Talk about listening to Fay’s publicity company and swallowing it lock stock and barrel. Typical trying to make news rather than investigating some truths. Any thought that you have been conned Harteveldt ?
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March 4, 2012 11:29am
mikenmild

Exactly – it is subjective assessment of an individual’s prospects that most likely determine emigration decisions, not necessarily a rational analysis of lifestyle, happiness etc in one’s home country. In New Zealand’s case, there would be few emigrants who could not realistically do well here – their moves are generally in search of a higher dollar, which won’t necessarily equate with higher general welfare overall.
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March 4, 2012 11:30am
adze

Paulus
I hear Rod Oram’s regular slot on Nine to Noon on RadioNZ. They should simply rename his slot “whatever the government is doing, it’s wrong”.
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March 4, 2012 11:32am
Leaping Jimmy

Don’t worry V2 farmers are not politically naive they know full well they are getting shafted up the arse our only real choice is to elect the party that will shaft us the most gently.

Is that you SSB? Anyhoo, know you’re not alone for most business people are in the same boat you are. We don’t have a strong conservative movement in this country anymore. At some point the left took over the MSM and the education system and now, most people have a totally warped perspective on all things conservative, conflating our positive values such as self-discipline and prudent financial management and mistaking these for such negative values as self-righteousness and selfishness.

Why people can’t work out these fallacies for themselves as they grow older and free themselves from youthful naivety I have no idea, but its plain to see decade by decade the number of people who ‘get it’ continues to shrink while the other side continues to grow.
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March 4, 2012 11:39am
tom hunter

… their moves are generally in search of a higher dollar, which won’t necessarily equate with higher general welfare overall

Perhaps this means that a necessarily large proportion of our half-million emigrants have discovered that money, which is rational (and hence objective?), does not buy happiness, which is subjective (and hence irrational?).

Of course that’s the opposite take to the previous sentence, which is that the assessment of an individual’s prospects is subjective while the analysis of lifestyle, happiness etc in one’s home country is rational.

Perhaps it’s that both things are analysed both subjectively and rationally at the same time and that one’s individual’s prospects are intimately tied to one’s lifestyle and happiness, whether in the home or foreign country? In which case it would appear that half a million New Zealanders are often making that assessment and only a small proportion are deciding to come home, while increasing numbers are deciding to leave.
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March 4, 2012 11:58am
mikenmild

I wouldn’t worry too much about the rational/irrational, subjective/objective bit. The relevant thing is – are you happy here? If you are not, will living somewhere else make you happier? If so, why and how?
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March 4, 2012 12:04pm
tom hunter

are you happy here

It’s also a question of kids, if you have them. I’m actually quite happy back here in NZ, effectively living off the money I piled up while overseas for the better part of two decades. But my children appear to have already reached a conclusion I never did; that their prospects in NZ are not bright, and they are already laying plans accordingly.

And again, that feeds into the reasons that so many New Zealanders live overseas.
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March 4, 2012 12:15pm
tom hunter

And as part of getting away from the always dreary topic of NZ’s future – here’s a great article on the latest advances in artificial hearts. The key is No pulse.
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March 4, 2012 12:22pm
Viking2

cows4me (20) Says:
March 4th, 2012 at 11:17 am

You had a chance to change that but you voted to return double dipton instead of your farmer freindly mate who stood against him.

Now like so many of the rest of us we have to put up with the less than mediocre management of the Nats. or if you like New Labour.

Always a compromise and never a principle.
And the problem is that they don’t even know that.
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March 4, 2012 12:34pm
grumpyoldhori

Time we copied the Germans, if you fuck off from NZ after bludging an education then want to be a citizen of another country you will lose your NZ citizenship.
And no your jesusland kids will not have the right to a NZ passport.
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March 4, 2012 1:19pm
Viking2

Tip for johnboy from the Aussies.

dont forget the velcro gloves, it grabs and stops the sheep from running away 🙂
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March 4, 2012 1:26pm
Monique Watson

I hear you Camryn. I like to think of it as being in a better place now. Or in John Key’s Better Brighter future.
Socialism. It’s what happens when you try to help everyone and you’re left holding your ankles while those that don’t care take advantage of you. Far better being a tax payer somewhere that they actually maintain town centres and build roads when they’re needed. Economy in NZ is rooted for lack of infrastructure and a manufacturing base. The cult of victimhood just gives us more Victims. And more excuses for murders. We pretty it up with terms like child abuse and infanticide. I would be interested to know if there is anywhere in the states that has 5 children a year murdered by adults paid by the state to do so. Can’t beat a combination of better community and better pay where I am.
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March 4, 2012 1:31pm
tom hunter

Pssst – Camryn, Monique – a word to the wise. Mikenmild, and all the other lefties, have left the building. They’re not listening to you wingnuts.

Roll on 2014 and increased tax revenues. It will be like turning on a tap. No worries.
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March 4, 2012 2:16pm
mikenmild

I’m still waiting to see if someone can translate Monique’s last comment into English. I think she was trying to say something about NZ being a socialist country but then she segued into something about victimhood and infanticide…
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March 4, 2012 2:23pm
Monique Watson

I’m so happy for you.
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March 4, 2012 2:24pm
Manolo

This absurdity passes for love among savages: http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8429493/turangi-rape-teen-records-song-behind-bars
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March 4, 2012 2:30pm
cha

http://www.thechurchreport.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=siteContent.default&objectID=150089

I appreciate children in all of their richness and complexity
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March 4, 2012 2:33pm
Camryn

I’m in the US. I’d prefer the New Zealand lifestyle, but the fact that my salary is at least US$70k higher than it would be in NZ makes it more worthwhile to be here (for now).
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March 4, 2012 2:34pm
wat dabney

“Time we copied the Germans, if you fuck off from NZ after bludging an education then want to be a citizen of another country you will lose your NZ citizenship.”

So people who don’t repay benefits lost their citizenship? Sounds a bit drastic. That’s just about every lower-paid worker in the country.
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March 4, 2012 2:42pm
Johnboy

Yvette:
Ah mon amour. Gentil de me voir suis dans vos pensées de début de la matinée. Désolé pour la réponse lente. J’avais dehors expulsé mes vrais moutons de leurs pâturages pour faire de la place pour ces derniers.

http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=inflatable+sheep&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=8s5ST7XtBsr6mAXgna2kCg&sqi=2&ved=0CD8QsAQ&biw=1038&bih=828

🙂
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March 4, 2012 3:12pm
Johnboy

Two rubber suckers work on these babies V2 and no nasty dags on your velcro gloves! 🙂
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March 4, 2012 3:15pm
Johnboy

Magpie (1) must be due to shit in the KB nest shortly! 🙂
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March 4, 2012 3:19pm
Johnboy

Then again he may return as Cuckoo (1). 🙂

“About 56 of the Old World species and 3 of the New World species are brood parasites, laying their eggs in the nests of other birds.[13] “
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March 4, 2012 3:23pm
cha

JB, an F-35 vertical landing.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lockheedmartin/
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March 4, 2012 3:25pm
Johnboy

Hell cha. How did a nation with technology like that vote for the leader they have?
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March 4, 2012 3:32pm
Redbaiter

“How did a nation with technology like that vote for the leader they have?”

Easy Johnny- Cultural Marxism. (Cha is one of its most enthusiastic advocates.) People all over the West are saying “What the hell is happening here?”.

And what is happening is that the left conducted an assault not on our political institutions, this came later. Firstly they took over our public institutions, our education system, our news services and media and our entertainment industry.

Sometime during the last half-century, someone stole our culture. Just 50 years ago, in the 1950s, America was a great place. It was safe. It was decent. Children got good educations in the public schools. Even blue-collar fathers brought home middle-class incomes, so moms could stay home with the kids. Television shows reflected sound, traditional values.

Where did it all go? How did that America become the sleazy, decadent place we live in today – so different that those who grew up prior to the ’60s feel like it’s a foreign country? Did it just “happen”?

It didn’t just “happen.” In fact, a deliberate agenda was followed to steal our culture and leave a new and very different one in its place. The story of how and why is one of the most important parts of our nation’s history – and it is a story almost no one knows. The people behind it wanted it that way.

What happened, in short, is that America’s traditional culture, which had grown up over generations from our Western, Judeo-Christian roots, was swept aside by an ideology. We know that ideology best as “political correctness” or “multi-culturalism.” It really is cultural Marxism, Marxism translated from economic into cultural terms in an effort that goes back not to the 1960s, but to World War I. Incredible as it may seem, just as the old economic Marxism of the Soviet Union has faded away, a new cultural Marxism has become the ruling ideology of America’s elites. The No. 1 goal of that cultural Marxism, since its creation, has been the destruction of Western culture and the Christian religion.

You can read more about it here.

http://www.wnd.com/2007/05/41737/
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March 4, 2012 3:54pm
Johnboy

Hell, he has told the naughty Jews and Muslims off though Red. You have give the poor feller some credit for that surely?
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March 4, 2012 3:59pm
Pete George

Sometime during the last half-century, someone stole our culture. Just 50 years ago, in the 1950s, America was a great place. It was safe. It was decent. Television shows reflected sound, traditional values.

Yes, those were the days of good wholesome television reflecting the best culture possible.

If only we could still see the world black and white.

Ah, hang on, US culture wasn’t Kiwi culture. Should Kiwis convert to 50s US television culture? We can’t do Hollywood, weren’t they commienists? Or Jews. Or some other conspiracy group.
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March 4, 2012 4:13pm
Scott Chris

Some of you may be interested in this:

[blockquote] bla bla bla [blockquote]

creates:

bla bla bla

except you have to use > and < instead of ] and [

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Same deal for bold and italics:

Bold = [b]bla bla bla[/b] swap ] and [ for > and <

Italics = [i] bla bla bla [/i] swap same
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March 4, 2012 4:19pm
Johnboy

Most of us don’t really give a fuck what you say Scotty.

Don’t let this damning opinion hold you back from your G-d given right to free speech however! 🙂
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March 4, 2012 4:22pm
Scott Chris

oops correction. I missed a forward slash out. Should read:

[blockquote] bla bla bla [/blockquote]

and reminder, you have to swap the bracket type for it to work.
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March 4, 2012 4:25pm
Johnboy

Johnboy holds head in hands and screams silently!!! 🙂
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March 4, 2012 4:27pm
Pete George

At least RB’s ideals have modernised a bit, a while ago he wanted to go back to education as it was in 1905. He’s advanced to reversing the 0 and 5. If he goes funkstille for a while longer he might just about make it to this century.
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March 4, 2012 4:35pm
cha

~snort~

Pat Boone, Ted ‘Harry Potter is dangerous’ Baehr and William ‘These guys were all Jewish’ Lind.
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March 4, 2012 4:53pm
joana

Yes Viking 2 there is a great deal of anger amongst farmers with many saying they will never vote National again..National losing the farmers!! That is historical but then they are not fools and they don’t like being lied to. Well who does like being lied to?
Why were the Singaporeans and the Chinese told they could buy the farms separately? How will Key slip out of this one? I know some of the farmers who were sending texts to English at the recent farm days. Truly , this is historical..Trash your solid support base…who are the advisers? Have they ever walked on grass?? Why are they still employed?
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March 4, 2012 4:53pm
mikenmild

Hey cha, I hadn’t heard of Lind, but his see he “is a self-proclaimed monarchist and particularly admires Kaiser Wilhelm II of Germany”. Cue derisive snorts.
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March 4, 2012 4:58pm
cha

Lind features in Anders Breivik’s manifesto too.
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March 4, 2012 5:09pm
mikenmild

Thanks cha. Do the nutjobs that link to such idiocy really think no one will bother to look at those links? Lind seems like a prize weirdo. From what I have seen, fans of Kaiser Bill are usually just to chicken to say out loud that they adore Hitler.
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March 4, 2012 5:14pm
Johnboy

Hell joana. Don’t believe everything you read. Most of those pricks that wrote to JK never voted National in their lives.

It’s like the talkback where you say. “All my best friends are Maori but…….” 🙂
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March 4, 2012 5:15pm
mikenmild

Yeah, who’re the farmers going to vote for instead? It’s like unionists getting pissed off with Labour. Happens all the time but doesn’t change their votes.
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March 4, 2012 5:20pm
Johnboy

Wilhelm II had a wonderful bristly mustache though Milky just like a privet hedge really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCDkoD3CkqQ

Not like that sad little stunted prick Hitler! 🙂
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March 4, 2012 5:22pm
Johnboy

You don’t think they will get a twinge of conscience looking at their offal pits and decide to vote Green then do you Milky? 🙂
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March 4, 2012 5:24pm
mikenmild

Ahhh, General Melchett. Fine moustache, but he didn’t have a pickelhaube, did he?
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March 4, 2012 5:28pm
Johnboy

Only the gorgeous Georgina could tell us about that Milky.
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March 4, 2012 5:30pm
mikenmild

i have no comeback to that.
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March 4, 2012 5:37pm
joana

You guys obviously don’t know many farmers.. Get your gummies on and get out there. Generally they don’t like the greens..but they could always vote for NZfirst. Quite a number of them did in this past election. Surprised a few Wellingtonians then too.
Only a very foolish or inexperienced Nat leader would ever alienate the farming community.
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March 4, 2012 5:44pm
Johnboy

“Only a very foolish or inexperienced Nat leader would ever alienate the farming community.”

Once he has sold most of the land to the Chinese the Roundeyes will be the Aliens joana.
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March 4, 2012 5:56pm
joana

I know all about it John Boy. No I haven’t been to Tibet but I did marry into a large Chinese clan decades ago.
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March 4, 2012 6:21pm
Johnboy

“decades ago.”

And here was poor old me envisaging you as a silly little tart joana when you you are obviously the sort of ripe, fully mature, woman I have extreme fantasies about! 🙂
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March 4, 2012 6:28pm
Viking2

The mind boggles 😯
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March 4, 2012 7:17pm
mikenmild

Hey, this is hilarious:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/food-wine/6519389/Corkage-costs-leave-bitter-taste
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March 4, 2012 7:18pm
Viking2

A friend who has just turned 50 put it this way: “I think when we were growing up, New Zealand was predominantly a socialist country and the lifestyle was great – plenty of bush to explore and beaches and doing stuff with your mates then, as teens, surfing, parties, adventures. In many ways we lived the dream. But I’m not so sure young people can do that now.
There are no jobs, yet if you’re unemployed you’re viewed as a miserable drain on the economy. If you’re uneducated, your only hope is the mines in Australia.

But good on Bret McKenzie.”

Land of opportunity?
By Cliff Taylor
5:30 AM Sunday Mar 4, 2012

For thousands of proud Kiwis watching the telly, Oscar-winner Bret McKenzie couldn’t have said it better. McKenzie told the world New Zealand was a great place to grow up, somewhere you could live your dreams. But how accurate is that assessment in 2012? Cliff Taylor asks if Godzone is still a place that nurtures talent

Bret McKenzie told the world that New Zealand was a great place to grow up.

Proudly clutching Hollywood’s most prized trophy, Bret McKenzie used his moment in the global spotlight this week to heap praise on his homeland. Back at home, watching the Oscars on TV, we swelled with pride, the warm fuzzies still glowing the next morning. Tourism industry bosses must have been hugging themselves silly.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10789744
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March 4, 2012 7:19pm
Johnboy

Is your mind boggling at the vision of a ripe, fully mature, well endowed joana V2 or the thought of me thinking about such a vision? 🙂
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March 4, 2012 7:25pm
Manolo

It’s like the talkback where you say. “All my best friends are Maori but…….”

How did you know I ring talk-back radio? 😀
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March 4, 2012 7:25pm
Johnboy

I’ve read your letters to the Editor! 🙂
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March 4, 2012 7:27pm
joana

Johnboy ,
glad to know I can still give an old codger like you a thrill..For all you know , I could have been a child bride..7/8 yrs old… mail order even.
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March 4, 2012 7:38pm
Johnboy

My rural delivery is always available if you get bored with your present address my dear! 🙂
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March 4, 2012 7:41pm
nasska

It’s important to have a woman who cooks, cleans and helps you out when you need it.
It’s important to have a woman who makes you laugh.
It’s important to have a woman who you can trust, and won’t lie to you.
It’s important to have a woman who is good in bed and loves being with you.

And it’s very important these four women don’t know each other.
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March 4, 2012 8:01pm
Viking2

DIVORCE AGREEMENT

Dear Australian Laborites, leftists, social progressives, socialists, Marxists and Gillard, et al:

We have stuck together since the late 1950’s for the sake of the kids, but the whole of this latest election process has made me realize that I want a divorce. I know we tolerated each other for many years for the sake of future generations, but sadly, this relationship has clearly run its course.

Our two ideological sides of Australia cannot and will not ever agree on what is right for us all, so let’s just end it on friendly terms. We can smile and chalk it up to irreconcilable differences and go our own way

Here is a model separation agreement:

Our two groups can equitably divide up the country by landmass each taking a similar portion. That will be the difficult part, but I am sure our two sides can come to a friendly agreement. After that, it should be relatively easy! Our respective representatives can effortlessly divide other assets since both sides have such distinct and disparate tastes.

We don’t like redistributive taxes so you can keep them. You are welcome to the ACTU, the Fabian Society and every member of Emily’s List. Since you hate guns and war, we’ll take our firearms, the cops and the military. We’ll take the nasty, smelly oil industry and you can go with wind, solar and biodiesel. You can keep the ABC left wingers (particularly Kerry O’Brien) and Bob Brown. You are, however, responsible for finding an electric vehicle big enough to move all of them.

We’ll keep capitalism, greedy corporations, pharmaceutical companies, Woolworths and the Stock Exchange. You can have your beloved lifelong welfare dwellers, dole bludgers, homeless, homeboys, hippies, druggies and boat people. We’ll keep the budgie smuggling, bike riding, volunteer firemen and lifesavers, greedy CEOs and rednecks. We’ll keep the Bibles and the churches and give you SBS and the Greens.

You can make peace with Iran, Palestine and the Taliban and we’ll retain the right to stand up and fight when threatened. You can have the greenies and war protesters. When our allies or our way of life are under assault, we’ll help provide them security.

We’ll keep our Judeo-Christian values. You are welcome to Islam, Scientology, Humanism, political correctness and Penny Wong. You can also have the U.N. But we will no longer be paying the bill.

We’ll keep the 4WDs, utes and V8s. You can take every hybrid hatchback you can find.

We’ll keep “Waltzing Matilda” and our National Anthem. I’m sure you’ll be happy to keep in tune with Peter Garrett as he sings “Imagine”, “I’d Like to Teach the World to Sing”, “Kum Ba Ya”, “We Are The World” and his recent big solo hit “Beds and Batts are Burning.”

We’ll practice trickle down economics and you can continue to give trickle up poverty your best shot. Since it so often offends you, we’ll keep our history, our name and our flag.

Would you agree to this? If so, please pass it along to other like-minded conservative Australians and if you do not agree, just hit delete. In the spirit of friendly parting, I’ll bet you answer which one of us will need whose help in 15 years.

Sincerely,
John Wall
Australian Law Student

PS. Also, please take Lindsey Tanner, Wayne Swan, Alan Griffin, John Faulkner, Kevin Rudd, and Jenny Macklin with you.

PSS. And you won’t have to press 1 for English when you call our country.
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March 4, 2012 8:02pm
Johnboy

That’s why I need KB nasska! 🙂
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March 4, 2012 8:04pm
cows4me

‘Yeah who the famers going to vote for instead’ Probably for some dumb arse socialist tosspot, what choice do we have? There is no real right wing party in NZ that actually believes in the principles of free enterprise and true justice.. This country has been conned that government will make it all right. Doesn’t seem to be working. LJ Y
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March 4, 2012 8:24pm
Johnboy

Why don’t you start a proper Rural Party cows4me. Could get more seats than the poofy Greenies under MMP.

I’d vote for you even though I fancy sheep! 🙂
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March 4, 2012 8:28pm

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