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March 26, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 26 March 2012

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Keeping Stock

Annette King’s remarkable admission yesterday is proof positive that the Urewera “terror” raids were a flag-waving exercise for Helen Clark’s government, and that is where the blame should be directed. But what the hell is she doing

a) confirming that Labour was receiving “heads-up” briefings on operational issues from its Police Commissioner, and
b) speaking out publicly about a matter which is still before the Courts on two fronts?

This is an error of judgment from an MP even more experienced than Nick Smith. But will the Left be baying for her blood? Doubt it…

http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2012/03/passing-buck.html
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March 26, 2012 8:20am
Longknives

Someone needs to explain to this bonkers Tapu Misa lady what a ‘hung jury’ means…

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10794585
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March 26, 2012 8:26am
Leaping Jimmy

Fast food is nothing but a concoction of harmful and health-damaging chemicals which can easily be understood if you were to think for a moment how any restaurant could offer a double cheeseburger for only $1.

Most recently it was uncovered that these $1 cheeseburgers, along with the rest of McDonald’s’ beef and chicken, were actually harnessing ‘pink slime’ scrap meat covered with ammonium hydroxide. Not only does this fake meat provide no nutritional value at all, but it is chemically contaminated from ammonia, the toxic cleaning agent found under the sink. The meat is actually fat trimmings and connective tissue that are separated from the bone – scrap meat that is not fit for human consumption. The ammonia treatment is in response to the danger of contamination from salmonella or E. coli, but the scrap meats themselves are more likely to contain pathogens. Despite the chemical treatment, the meat is still in the line of fire for contamination.

http://naturalsociety.com/why-you-should-avoid-fast-food-at-all-costs/#ixzz1q5amyzST
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March 26, 2012 8:30am
joana

Following on from similar problems in W.A. , the NSW govt has frozen funding to Sydney’s largest islamic school because of ongoing fraud.
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March 26, 2012 8:32am
Rick Rowling

Am I right in asserting that every give-way sign on “the bottom of the tee” of every intersection is now redundant?

Could be a big cost saving for councils.
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March 26, 2012 8:35am
Positan

King has shown herself only as a “professional” MP. On so many prior occasions she’s shown very little understanding of the duties her position is actually supposed to render the country – Labour interests always come first. Transparently her sole focus is on holding down an income and lifestyle neither she nor her useless Labour compatriots could remotely equal elsewhere, grabbing whatever media spotlight is offering.

With no available defence for her big-mouthing this time, her efforts to save face from Finlayson’s criticism will be fascinating.
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March 26, 2012 8:43am
Rick Rowling

How’s this for a translation of the new rules?

Give way to *everyone* if:

(a) You’re crossing a lane of oncoming traffic; or

(b) You’re entering a road from a side road or driveway.
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March 26, 2012 8:54am
Chuck Bird

I see the AIDS Foundation is trying to justify people who are HIV+ not telling their sexual partners of the risk they are taking. The rate of HIV contracted by a homosexual or bisexual connection is well over 50 times the rate of genuine heterosexual sexual intercourse.

Shaun Robinson: The key to prevent HIV spread

The number of prosecutions has been small because most people living with HIV are extremely careful not to place their HIV negative partners at risk.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10794515
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March 26, 2012 8:57am
HB

Leaping Jimmy

you may be interested in this too
http://docakilah.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/can-you-guess-what-mcdonald%E2%80%99s-food-item-this-is/

ew
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March 26, 2012 9:02am
Stamper

Given that Loopey Len’s budget is $3.2m for 12 months, apart from the goffa who’s job it is to carry the chair for the “Mayor in the Chair”, what the hell do the other 22 goffa’s do all day?
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March 26, 2012 9:09am
dime

leaping jimmy – struth! problem is they are just so goddam delicious 🙂

cant say i go to mcdonalds for the nutritional value anyway!
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March 26, 2012 9:12am
Leaping Jimmy

HB thanks for that. I recall Chevy Chase in one of the Lampoon movies when asked what are hot dogs made of, responding with the memorable line: “lips and arseholes.”

This shit ain’t funny no more.

I wonder if the McDonald’s CEO and all the other management are happy taking their children and grand-children to those restaurants, knowing how they manufacture what they serve?

That would be good to know, especially if they had a video of them eating it just after they’d come from the factory tour where the delicious patties were “processed.”
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March 26, 2012 9:14am
Pete George

Rick Rowling @ 8.35 am – no, Give way signs (and Stop signs and traffic lights) override the general give way rules.

Rick Rowling @ 8.54 am – yes, that seems like a reasonable rule of thumb (if there are no signs).
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March 26, 2012 9:27am
Lance

@Pete George
No Pete, you don’t get what Rick was pointing out; that a give way sign at the bottom of a T intersection is completely irrelevant now. The car at the bottom of the T will always have to give way, no matter what. So why have a sign there anymore?
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March 26, 2012 9:37am
flipper

Yes, King is an issue that deserves examination.

Finlayson’s pathetic statement is a load of codswallop that should be thrown at Collins.

As stated yesterday, the direct question to Collins was from Clark. King made that clear.

And, was it not Collins who chased (unsuccessfully?) the Dom Post for contempt?

Now, after a mind change of monumental proportions, Collins ducks behind his new appointment to avoid responding to scrutiny.

As always, the legal mafia close ranks. Omerta is not confined to Sicily.

Moreover, Collins’ appointment brings to mind the similar appointment of Morris following his persecution of Thomas.

What a systerm we have.

As for the rights or wrongs of the Urewera affair, credible explanations (in a non judicial forum) are required from all parties.
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March 26, 2012 9:37am
Rick Rowling

Pete – what is the purpose of a give way sign “at the bottom of the tee”?

IIRC one has to give way to everyone else from there anyway.
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March 26, 2012 9:38am
Rick Rowling

Ooops – I see Lance already clarified.
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March 26, 2012 9:42am
bereal

Good morning Pete George.

i hope you saw the contribution from Twinkletoes on yesterdays GD @ 3.40 am

Not wishing to rehash yesterdays disscussion but, just one point.

You did not get around to explaining why you feel that the New Zealand experience will be
different in the long run to any other western country on earth that has OKed muslim immigration.

If you were able to explain that i would appreciate it greatly as it would put my mind to rest.
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March 26, 2012 9:44am
Ross12

We’ve all heard the saying -“there are two sides to every story ” On that score this is worth a read

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,821396,00.html
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March 26, 2012 9:59am
kowtow

There is a huge problem confronting our young people and it goes largely unreported.If this is the case in one area what about the rest of the country.I think illegal narcotics abuse plays a part but is not mentioned in the article.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/6635459/More-kids-on-mood-stabilising-drugs
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March 26, 2012 10:18am
Pete George

It’s worth putting this in here too – Whaleoil has posted on About Anonymous blogging</a. He referenced The Standard

This is the exact reasoning behind the majority of the Labour and Union flunkies at The Standard remaining anonymous. They believe their anonymity means they create better writing. It is a specious argument and one that largely leads to their blogs becoming echo chambers.

I believe that if more of them “came out” that there would be a better more honest, reasoned, political discourse in the NZ blogosphere.

so I popped ,a href=”http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-26032012/comment-page-1/#comment-451087″>some comments and links in there.

I know that won’t make me fan of the day there, but that’s normal. I think there’s a significant difference between the credibility of ‘Eddie’ and Anthony.
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March 26, 2012 10:26am
Pete George

Stuffed that link up. http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-26032012/comment-page-1/#comment-451087
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March 26, 2012 10:32am
Griff

Temperatures could rise by 3C by 2050, models suggest
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17488450

Global temperatures could rise by 1.4-3.0C (2.5-5.4F) above levels for late last century by 2050, a computer simulation has suggested.

Almost 10,000 climate simulations were run on volunteers’ home computers.

The projections, published in Nature Geoscience, are somewhat higher than those from other models.
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March 26, 2012 10:41am
nasska

LJ & HB

I followed HB’s link with interest. About twenty five years ago I was invited to tag along to a demonstration of a ‘food extruder’ at Seaview given by the importer. A mate of mine was looking at leasing or buying one to use in the manufacture of fruit leather.

The machine as I saw it wasn’t complicated although the price tag didn’t reflect this….it was basically an augur mincer but built to incredibly fine tolerances which allowed it to create sufficient pressure to force the product through the extrusion ports. Whatever went into the machine came out about the consistency of toothpaste.

Apparently the extruder could handle just about anything. Chicken petfood which advertisements would have us believe was sliced lovingly off chicken breasts was actually whole carcasses, (feathers, guts, bones, the works) thrown in minus the toenails which apparently could jam the augur. Similar machines were used to manufacture puffed wheat, rice bubbles etc. Crab sticks, meat paste & various stockfood were other products created.

I query that the chicken nuggets etc would have no nutritional value but if people saw how food was manufactured anorexia would be the leading cause of death in the Western world.
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March 26, 2012 10:43am
dime

Pete – not sure why you bother posting there.

You mentioned “eddie” and her “both sides are scum” comment. It caught my eye too. Just off putting.

You can sense the bitterness and hatred as they bang out their posts. I also get a sense that they dont live in a real world. just a world surrounded by like minded, bitter victims.
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March 26, 2012 10:53am
Put it away

Always with the dishonest loons echoing the same old lies about McD’s. The beef is ordinary beef and the chicken is ordinary chicken. Find something real to moan about.
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March 26, 2012 11:29am
Pete George

dime – maybe I have this quaint faint hope that enough of them will see how counterproductive to gaining wider support their bitter bile is and find out how to raise their standard and appeal to a wider audience.

I’m less supportive of Labour than I’ve every been but I think it’s important we have a strong viable opposition. A coalition of current Labour plus NZF and Greens is a depressing prospect.

The vocal ones left in Labour don’t like Shearer and his more reasoned and reasonable approach, so it will be interesting to see if Shearer survives – and if Labour survives if he doesn’t.
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March 26, 2012 11:33am
dime

mate, they are a lost cause.

i have a browse through their site every week or so. it seems they are down to the same few lefties commenting ad nauseam on every thread – micky, viper etc angry little shit heads

their politics are about as appealing as a neo nazi party. just venom and hate.
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March 26, 2012 11:38am
cha

James Cameron has hit bottom.

http://deepseachallenge.com/
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March 26, 2012 11:38am
graham

Pete, you know I’ve mentioned this before. Like dime, I can’t see the point of posting or even visiting The Standard.

If it was a blog that supported robust discussion and debate in an adult environment, then yeah go for it. But it’s not. It is a blog that attracts some very bitter and hate-filled people, and the overall tone of the writing is bitter, vicious, and very nasty.

By the way, the left doesn’t have a monopoly on this – there are right-wing blogs that are also not worth visiting. But for all the insults The Standard hurl at Kiwiblog, DPF runs this site in a far more mature and respectful fashion than the various commenters at The Standard do.

Over time, you tend to become – to some degree – influenced by the company you keep. If you are by nature a normal well-adjusted individual, then frequenting The Standard too much will, over a period of months, negatively influence you and change you for the worse. I honestly believe this.
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March 26, 2012 11:42am
nasska

Put it away

There is no way that meat patties are an extruded product……as I noted in my 10.43am the end result is a paste, totally different from mince in composition. The only item found on fast food menus which I am certain is extruded is crab sticks.
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March 26, 2012 11:51am
Pete George

graham – associating with The Standard (when I’m allowed) keeps providing me with inventive to explore better ways of doing democracy. Part of what I’m establishing in Dunedin is a better way of discussing and debating. I first started on Kiwiblog to learn and research. Same on The Standard. It helps to understand the most vocal and the biggest knockers.
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March 26, 2012 11:53am
graham

dime, I don’t think it would matter what politics they followed.

The commenters there – eddie, mickysavage, lprent, r0b, IrishBill – are just so bloody nasty, hateful and bitter. And they feed off each other, dragging themselves down into murkier depths.

Pete, they don’t get it. I think Whale described The Standard as an echo chamber, and he’s right. They feed off each other, moan about how terrible the right is, agree sycophantically with each other, and the whole depressing cycle continues.

I’m surprised some of them haven’t committed suicide by now. They certainly seem to have no qualms about suggesting others do so if they happen to disagree with them …
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March 26, 2012 11:53am
All_on_Red

“Temperatures could rise by 3C by 2050, models suggest”

models suggest?
Given the temp is ACTUALLY now below the lowest estimate of all the IPCC “scenarios” I think your models are a bit of a joke.
Are you writing ads for Tui now Griff?
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March 26, 2012 11:57am
graham

Your choice Pete, but thing is … you come across as a fairly moderate sort of a person. The commenters at The Standard are of a level of nastiness that you are unprepared to cope with. They will chew you up and spit you out.
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March 26, 2012 11:58am
Pete George

graham – they may try and chew me up but they haven’t worked out what they are trying to eat, I’m not politics as usual.

I managed to survive a few chewers here – RB is starting to pop again half heartedly, KrisK seems to have gone to promote his intolerant Christanity elsewhere.

I think I can hack it. It’s easy to just walk away from it when you want a break.
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March 26, 2012 12:04pm
krazykiwi

Griff, in science observation trumps models. There has been no statistically significant warming in 17 years, while Co2 levels have increased. It was hotter in the MWP with lower Co2 levels. Observation is a bit inconvenience for those who would re-write history in order to have them control our future.
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March 26, 2012 12:13pm
adze

Pete, if you can handle the “tough bikers” at Dim Post (Sanctuary’s term for himself and the other rude fucks in the peanut gallery on that blog – I LOL’ed heartily when I read that!), you can handle anything I’m sure 🙂
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March 26, 2012 12:25pm
Viking2

Griff (1,748) Says:
March 26th, 2012 at 10:41 am

Temperatures could rise by 3C by 2050, models suggest
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17488450

Global temperatures could rise by 1.4-3.0C (2.5-5.4F) above levels for late last century by 2050, a computer simulation has suggested.

as usual.
GI/GO
Computers do that. They cannot distinguish between good information and garbage. So garbage begets garbage. Hence garbage in equals garbage out.

Works every time.
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March 26, 2012 12:43pm
MT_Tinman

Nasska, virtually every type of processed meat – sausage, saveloy, rolled beef/chicken/ham/lamb, egg etc. is extruded.

Many of these are used in restaurants, both fast-food and slow-food.

Quite simply, if they don’t kill you they’re ok to eat but it does help if you don’t see them manufactured.

I notice one of the links (I only opened one) was to a vegetarian nutter outfit. What always strikes me as strange is that the vegetarian nutters all have meat substitutes and pretend meat products (soy sausages, tofu burgers etc.).

If the vegetable-only diet is as good as the nutters claim it is why?
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March 26, 2012 12:46pm
Scott Chris

There has been no statistically significant warming in 17 years

Funny how that number keeps growing. It is of course wrong. The sea, which holds over 90% of the earth’s surface heat content is steadily warming.

in science observation trumps models

Sure, if you know what to measure and how to measure it.
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March 26, 2012 12:49pm
krazykiwi

CS – you’re right. Sorry.. it’s only 15 years, not 17.
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March 26, 2012 1:05pm
Ross12

SC –According to Argo bouy ( in place since 2003 ) data the heat content of the sea has NOT been steadily warming.

ftp://ftp.nodc.noaa.gov/pub/data.nodc/woa/DATA_ANALYSIS/3M_HEAT_CONTENT/DATA/basin/3month/ohc_levitus_climdash_seasonal.csv
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March 26, 2012 1:25pm
bereal

Ross12

nice one son.

Scott Chris makes another statement of ‘ fact ‘ and is proved wrong yet again. (when will Scott get sum sing rite ?)

Wait for the squealing.
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March 26, 2012 1:48pm
david

Question for military historians.
Were the NZ forces taking part in the Korean War called “K-Force” (similarly to the WWII troops in Japan called J-Force) or is Claire Trevett correct in the Herald report when she calls it “Kayforce”? I wouldn’t like to jump on her as an ignorant twit masquerading as a reporter who doesn’t do her homework now would I?

Interesting to note that Full-Moon King has now has second thoughts on when she and the rest of the cabal trying to run NZ at the time were briefed on the police action in the Urewera case. Seems like she had time to brief Cabinet at the regular weekly meeting so it must have been some days earlier than “the previous day” as she opined on Q+A.

About what else is her memory faulty?
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March 26, 2012 2:12pm
jonnobanks

Good one John, should have released the tapes and we wouldn’t have NZ first back.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6635890/Teapot-tape-saga-dropped
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March 26, 2012 2:42pm
East Wellington Superhero

NZ AIDS Foundations reckons more condoms and lubriaction will fix the HIV problem.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10794515

1. Aren’t these ubiqitous already anyway?
2. Is condoning destructive behaviour (wreckless sexual promiscuity) really going to solve the problem? Really?

“More condoms and lube”. What crazy planet are we (and the AIDS Foundation funders the NZ taxpayer) living on?
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March 26, 2012 2:42pm
East Wellington Superhero

The truth is that the AIDS Foundation is a gay lobby group. The op-ed is more focused on protecting the ‘rights’ of the gay community, rather than tackling public health.
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March 26, 2012 2:44pm
krazykiwi

Jo Nova reports: $175k to cheer up Department of Energy and Climate Change staff

Hey, but this is alright when you are spending someone else’s money isn’t it?

Staff at the Australian Department of Climate Change are so depressed, I can’t think why, that the government is spending $175,000 to cheer them up.

Could it be that the poor staff would enjoy their jobs more if they weren’t doing something which was a complete waste of time, and their programs weren’t a vacuous drain? Remember if we all abandon Australia, AND if the IPCC aren’t wildly overestimating the effects of extra CO2, then, and only then, will Australia cool the world by as much as — rounded to the nearest whole number – zero degrees. (Pace Matt Ridley)

Things are so bad, people were ashamed to admit to people that they worked at the Dept of Climate Change. Worse, this study was done back in 2010 – before a round of endless-drought-breaking floods in 2011 and then another round of endless-drought-breaking floods in 2012. This was before the worst of the plummeting Labor polling, before FakeGate… just how low do these people feel now?
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March 26, 2012 2:45pm
graham

Is The C-Word Acceptable?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/6637829/The-incredible-explosive-word

In my opinion – no. And neither is the F-word, not in polite society.

As quaint and old-fashioned as it may sound, I think we need standards. I still cringe when I hear the F-word being used in public, and I (luckily) can’t remember the last time I heard the C-word used in public. I think standards have slipped hugely when people use the F-word on a crowded street without apparently giving it a second thought, and if we ever get to the stage where the C-word is in common useage, it will be a sad day.
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March 26, 2012 2:46pm
dime

“The truth is that the AIDS Foundation is a gay lobby group. The op-ed is more focused on protecting the ‘rights’ of the gay community, rather than tackling public health.”

Well no wonder they are telling people to use a ton of lube. No one wants to take it up the jacksie prison style! well.. most people dont want to..
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March 26, 2012 2:52pm
Griff

2005 and 2010 likely topped 1998 as the warmest years in the instrumental record.
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/news/releases/archive/2012/hadcrut-updates

Alt science is for nutters stop reading altie blogs and get up to date you ostriches
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March 26, 2012 2:55pm
Griff

ARGO graphs
http://www.argo.ucsd.edu/global_change_analysis.html#temp
Another fail for the alties

Of course due to the fact that science is a massive scam and all the real knowledge is held by the altie sites these facts are false TUI
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March 26, 2012 3:17pm
Mark

I understand this is a National supporters blog but Gerry Brownlee’s Finnish fuck up needs an airing . What a twat, sadly the Finn’s wont understand that the No 3 ranked government MP is a buffoon who has a bit of a history of stupid, in conceived comments.
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March 26, 2012 3:20pm
RightNow

griff never seems to respond (in fact he disappears from the thread) when I post this:
(to repeat), this is a peer reviewed paper in Geophysical Research Letters
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2012/2011GL050226.shtml

“Our analysis also leads to a relatively low and tightly-constrained estimate of Transient Climate Response of 1.3–1.8°C, and relatively low projections of 21st-century warming under the Representative Concentration Pathways. Repeating our attribution analysis with a second model (CNRM-CM5) gives consistent results, albeit with somewhat larger uncertainties.”

Again to repeat, the science is not settled.

And (to repeat again), don’t you guys ever look at the figures showing model scenarios vs observed temperatures and think “oh the observations are much lower than the model forecasts”?
Because when I look at the model scenarios from IPCC AR4 and compare them with the observations, what I see is that the observations are even below scenario B1 that was based on reduced CO2 emissions.
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March 26, 2012 3:22pm
Scott Chris

[KrazyKiwi] it’s only 15 years, not 17.

Either way, makes little difference. The following graphic from the Lyman et al (2010) study clearly shows a warming trend for the past couple of decades.

[Ross 12] According to Argo bouy ( in place since 2003 ) data the heat content of the sea has NOT been steadily warming.

See above.

[beryl] another statement of ‘ fact ‘ and is proved wrong yet again

Piss off you brainless twat. You have nothing to contribute to this forum other than your regular uncouth, ill-mannered, ill-informed, ill-educated rantings.
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March 26, 2012 3:23pm
bereal

David @ 2.12
Claire Trevett is the shining example of how far standards have fallen in “journalism” in NZ

She has somehow risen to her level of incompetance as an assistant political editor of the New Zealand Herald FFS

She has recently been afforded the honour of her own opinion piece on Thursdays.
(unlless wiser counsel has prevailed now and this spot has been dropped)

i commented on her first gushing piece in that capacity on this blog. What a load of puke.

It was entitled, The Muhammed Ali question’ in parliament question time. The question asked by her idol, Winston Peters.
ie “does the prime minister have confidence in all his ministers ?’ (the question that floats like a butterfly and stings
like a bee) according to Ms Trevett.

If you havent already read it, look it up on the Heralds webpage. It will either make you puke or laugh. For eg.she wrote,

“You could see the fear in the eyes of government ministers when that question came up…and, the relief was palpable
when they realised that Winston did not have them in his sights.”

and, ‘ the government were the krill to Winston the baleen whale.’

On and on she went. It was a fuken embarrassment. A cringeworthy fuken embarrasment.

Look it up. It has to be good for a laugh.
But seriously, how sad, when a ‘political editor’ of the nations premier newspaper can produce such mindless drivel.
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March 26, 2012 3:43pm
Griff

griff never seems to respond (in fact he disappears from the thread) when I post this:
(to repeat), this is a peer reviewed paper in Geophysical Research Letters
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2012/2011GL050226.shtml

Geophysical Research Letters was also the 5th most cited publication on climate change between 1999 and 2009 The way you talk its the first most cited

No my partner arrived for the week end and as I had not seen her for two weeks you can understand why I was some wot busy for a couple of days
by the way I showed her a graph that you were insisting showed a downward trend she laughed at you inability to understand basic 4th form science
of course she would not know a graph if it hit her on the head she only has bsc triple Major in chemistry and a master in edu with first class honers
That is why I no longer try to debate science with alties you would call white black if it suited your world view

See the above link from the bbc seems there are climate models that are far more extreme then the studies that you have cherry picked more warming in the next 38 years than yours predicts for the next eighty eight.
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March 26, 2012 3:45pm
bereal

told you little Scott Chris would squeal.
and there he goes, he never dissapoints.

i assume i am his beryl @ 3.23. Pull his chain, off he squeals.

You can set your watch by this little drongo.
He is so predictable.
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March 26, 2012 3:51pm
Ross12

SC –If you can see a warming trend the Argo bouy data linked by Griff you had better explain it. The data before the Argo data is Useless –dangling buckets in the water from a boat etc isn’t really a great method.
Yes, the Argo data is not over a long period but it is very soundly produced data and thats what matters.

Griff –If you are going to believe the latest adjustments from hadcrut ,you need to think again a read more widely. They added in more data from Arctic regions and adjusted it . Even the climatologists guys from Iceland disagreed with it , saying it had already been adjusted for changes in station site ect.
All thse guys did was adjust down temps from earlier years to make it look like there was trend up in later years.
BTW these would Arctic sites that Hansen and co removed from the data set in about 1990 to get the picture they wanted at the time — now they add them back and adjust them further. Is that great science ??
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March 26, 2012 4:05pm
Griff

critique this right now 50degreesc is outside of possobilty human habitation
http://www.knmi.nl/publications/fulltexts/essence_a_v4.1_paper.pdf same source of your paperh
When can we expect extremely high surface temperatures?
In the Essence project a 17-member ensemble simulation
of climate change in response to the SRES A1b scenario
has been carried out using the ECHAM5/MPI-OM climate
model. The relatively large size of the ensemble makes it
possible to accurately investigate changes in extreme values
of climate variables. Here we focus on the annual-maximum
2m-temperature and fit a Generalized Extreme Value (GEV)
distribution to the simulated values and investigate the de-
velopment of the parameters of this distribution. Over most
land areas both the location and the scale parameter in-
crease. Consequently the 100-year return values increase
faster than the average temperatures. A comparison of sim-
ulated 100-year return values for the present climate with
observations (station data and reanalysis) shows that the
ECHAM5/MPI-OM model, as well as other models, over-
estimates extreme temperature values. After correcting for
this bias, it still shows values in excess of 50◦ C in Aus-
tralia, India, the Middle East, North Africa, the Sahel and
equatoria
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March 26, 2012 4:11pm
bereal

Way to go, Ross12.

i know that you don’t need, or want, any encouragement but it is sweet watching you skewer little Scott Chris and Griff with simple , well put facts and argument.

These boofheads wont be able to take much more of your punishment.

Note Griff @ 4.11 has just about lost it.
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March 26, 2012 4:16pm
bereal

The only thing we need now from little Scott Chris or Griff to sway the argument in their favour
is the old standard.
And i can’t understand why one of them hasn’t quoted it yet to bolster their point. It is usually a game breaker that
these drongos call on when all else is lost. viz

“Yes, but. The heat of the meat, over the angle of the dangle is equal to two thirds of four fifths
of sweet fuck all. So there.”

Saved you the trouble, little Scott Chris.
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March 26, 2012 4:27pm
Griff

–If you are going to believe the latest adjustments from hadcrut ,you need to think again a read more widely.
You mean I need to belive your alt science sites…. fail ….I also linked to giss same result
Please dont continue to read altie sites they are proven to be a pile of shit
All major scientific bodies and governments in the world share my views re climate change give up your altie religion and read more mainstream science you may just become scientifically literate not just another altie nutjob.
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March 26, 2012 4:29pm
mikenmild

Nice to see Griff and Scott fighting the good fight. Unfortunately, this is a cosy home for the ‘skepticism’, Islamaphobia and other assorted delusions, so don’t expect to change opinions. Good fun though.
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March 26, 2012 4:34pm
RightNow

Griff, my point is that there are peer reviewed papers that disagree with alarmist bullshit, which you can’t refute, although you’re in denial about them.

I will point out for you, in light of the paper you quote, that there have been temps higher than 50 deg C in the past, which clearly weren’t the result of human emitted GHG’s:

Australia for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oodnadatta,_South_Australia
“recorded the highest reliably measured maximum temperature in Australia: 50.7°C (123.3 F) on 2 January 1960”
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March 26, 2012 4:50pm
RightNow

BTW griff – the paper you cited takes model projections as gospel, even though the observations are clearly tracking below even the lowered emissions scenario. Your paper would be more useful if it was two-ply tissue.
Why can’t you knuckle draggers live in the real world?

“I am always happy to be in the minority. Concerning the climate models, I know enough of the details to be sure that they are unreliable. They are full of fudge factors that are fitted to the existing climate, so the models more or less agree with the observed data. But there is no reason to believe that the same fudge factors would give the right behavior in a world with different chemistry, for example in a world with increased CO2 in the atmosphere.” Freeman Dyson
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March 26, 2012 4:55pm
Leaping Jimmy

http://mises.org/daily/5955/The-Seven-Rules-of-Bureaucracy

Rule #1: Maintain the problem at all costs! The problem is the basis of power, perks, privileges, and security.

Rule #2: Use crisis and perceived crisis to increase your power and control.
Rule 2a. Force 11th-hour decisions, threaten the loss of options and opportunities, and limit the opposition’s opportunity to review and critique.

Rule #3: If there are not enough crises, manufacture them, even from nature, where none exist.

Rule #4: Control the flow and release of information while feigning openness.
Rule 4a: Deny, delay, obfuscate, spin, and lie.

Rule #5: Maximize public-relations exposure by creating a cover story that appeals to the universal need to help people.

Rule #6: Create vested support groups by distributing concentrated benefits and/or entitlements to these special interests, while distributing the costs broadly to one’s political opponents.

Rule #7: Demonize the truth tellers who have the temerity to say, “The emperor has no clothes.”
Rule 7a: Accuse the truth teller of one’s own defects, deficiencies, crimes, and misdemeanors.

————-

This is exactly, exactly, what Hulun did, isn’t it. Her administration put more legislation on the books than any other in our history. And how much of it is proving itself worthwhile? Very very little.

————-

Solutions:
“Bureaucrat” should not be thought of as a career path.
Send all newly elected officials to parliament with the specific goal to reduce legislation.
Use an economic analysis to examine our legislative initiatives before they become law.
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March 26, 2012 5:02pm
Ross12

Griff @ 4.29 Since you have resorted to attacking “the man not the ball “I’ll assume you cannot refute what I’ve said.

Just to give you a few Governments who don’t agree with you China , India , Russia , Czech. Republic.
Canada etc.

BTW. Quoting the BBC is about as low as anyone can get.
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March 26, 2012 5:11pm
krazykiwi

Please dont continue to read altie sites they are proven to be a pile of shit

Peer reviewed reference please. Then a review of that Climate Money link I sent. Just when you’re ready Griff.
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March 26, 2012 5:31pm
RightNow

GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH LETTERS, VOL. 36, L13704, 5 PP., 2009
doi:10.1029/2009GL038082

Climate projections: Past performance no guarantee of future skill?

C. Reifen
Department of Physics, Imperial College London, London, UK

R. Toumi
Department of Physics, Imperial College London, London, UK

“The principle of selecting climate models based on their agreement with observations has been tested for surface temperature using 17 of the IPCC AR4 models. Those models simulating global mean, Siberian and European 20th Century surface temperature with a lower error than the total ensemble for one period on average do not do so for a subsequent period. Error in the ensemble mean decreases systematically with ensemble size, N, and for a random selection as approximately 1/N α , where α lies between 0.6 and 1. This is larger than the exponent of a random sample (α = 0.5) and appears to be an indicator of systematic bias in the model simulations. There is no evidence that any subset of models delivers significant improvement in prediction accuracy compared to the total ensemble”

http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2009/2009GL038082.shtml

griff, there are hundreds of peer reviewed papers that I can cite. If you want to keep your fingers in your ears while you sing ‘la la la la la’ so be it.
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March 26, 2012 5:33pm
Scott Chris

Hmm temperature records. Well here’s a few:

Algeria…………..51.0 °C Illizi 2011
Chad…………….47.6 °C Faya-Largeau 2010
Congo……………39.2 °C Mpouya 2011
Morocco………….50.7 °C Semara 2009
Mozambique…….47.3 °C Chibuto 2009
Namibia…………47.8 °C Noordoewer 2009
Niger…………….48.2 °C Bilma 2010
Nigeria…………46.4 °C Yola 2010
South Africa….50.0 °C Dunbrody, Eastern Cape 2010
Sudan………….49.7 °C Dongola 2010
Zambia…………42.4 °C Mfuwe, Eastern Province 2010
China……………49.7 °C Ading Lake, Turpan, Xinjiang 2008
India…………….51.1 °C Purulia, West Bengal 2005
Iraq……………..52.0 °C BasraAli Air Base, Nasiriyah 2010
Kuwait………….53.5 °C Kuwait International Airport, Kuwait 2011
Japan…………..40.9 °C Kumagaya, Saitama / Tajimi, Gifu 2007
Malaysia…………40.1 °C Chuping 1998
Myanmar………..47.0 °C Myinmu 2010
Pakistan………..53.5 °C Mohenjo-daro, Sindh 2010
Belarus………….38.9 °C Gomel 2010
Croatia…………..42.8 °C Ploče 1998
Cyprus……………46.6 °C Lefkoniko, Cyprus 2010
England………….38.5 °C Faversham, Kent 2003
Estonia…………..35.6 °C Võru 1992
Finland…………….37.2 °C Liperi 2010
France……………..44.1 °C Conqueyrac / Saint-Christol-lès-Alès 2003
Hungary…………..41.9 °C Kiskunhalas 2007
Italy………………..48.5 °C Foggia, Apulia or Catenanuova, Sicily 2007
Lithuania………….37.5 °C Zarasai, Utena County 1994
Macedonia………..45.7 °C Demir Kapija, Demir Kapija Municipality 2007
Moldova………….41.5 °C Camenca, Camenca sub-district, Transnistria 2007
Montenegro……….44.8 °C Podgorica 2007
Portugal…………..47.4 °C Amareleja, Beja 2003
Russia…………….45.4 °C Utta, Kalmykia 2010
Scotland………….32.9 °C Greycrook, Scottish Borders 2003
Serbia………………44.9 °C Smederevska Palanka, Podunavlje District 2007
Slovakia…………..40.3 °C Hurbanovo 2007
Spain ……………..47.2 °C Murcia 1994
Switzerland………..41.5 °C Grono, Moesa District 2003
Ukraine……………..42.0 °C Luhansk 2010
Wales……………….35.2 °C Hawarden Bridge, Flintshire 1990
Greenland…………25.3 °C Tasiilaq 2005
Bolivia……………..46.7 °C Villamontes, Tarija Department 2010
Brazil……………….44.7 °C Bom Jesus, Piauí 2005
Colombia…………..42.3 °C Puerto Salgar, Cundinamarca Department 2010
Paraguay…………..45 °C Pratts Gill, Boquerón Department 2009
Cuba………………..38.8 °C Jucarito (Granma Province) 1999
South Pole………..-12.3 °C Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station 2011

BOOM ❗ as Jon Stewart would say.
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March 26, 2012 5:37pm
RightNow

scotty, I see you’ve actually edited the list to remove any records prior to about 1990. Very ethical of you.

Interesting that the highest recorded temperature in the list was in 1922 huh?:

57.8 °C (136.0 °F) ‘Aziziya, Libya 1922-09-13[1]
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March 26, 2012 5:40pm
bereal

Aw shit.
there we have it then .
How on earth can anyone argue with such a font of all wisdom as he who is able to declare.

“all major scientific bodies and governments in the world share my views re climate change………….”

its implied that if you don’t share them, then you are an idiot.

Well, there we have it.
Game set and match. Discussion over.
The great brain, Griff, has declared that he is right. @ 4.29
Thats all you need to know.

And if you f ‘wits needed any further confirmation, well, little Scott Chris agrees with Griff.

Oh dear, don’t these drongos make you laugh ?

Thing is, these drongs actually take themselves seriously.
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March 26, 2012 5:46pm
kowtow

This fracking energy news from the US has been doing the rounds. Now it is on the front page of the Telegraph. Cheap abundant energy,great,lets get going!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/commodities/9165898/Gas-fracking-will-revolutionise-the-US-economy.html
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March 26, 2012 5:49pm
Griff

canada pulled out of koyoto not quite the same as refuting science just a global agreement on limiting emissions china and india admit the science just maintain that there emissions should be allowed to match the west .
Quoting Wanking with watts, joe nova, singer ,lumzden., heartland etel is way lower than quoting the most respected msm source world wide
You disagree with all the mainstream temperature series That does make you a nut job on the fringe
If you dont like being called an altie best you actually start quoting mainstream science not fringe lunacy We had argos misrepresented from you are you going to admit that you are wrong re sea temperatures ? Of course the double el nino we have experienced alters the apparent heat content well known science to all but the altie comunity

Right now my link = your link You have now admitted global climate change is true you are just disputing the level of change are you going to accept the findings of IPCC when it comes out this year after all your study will be considered along with all the rest.
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March 26, 2012 5:54pm
bereal

Now who on earth is suprised to find that little Scott Chris, in his desperate attempt to have some creditability
will cheat and skew the figures he offers up.
Thanks for pointing that out RightNow

What sort of a POS is little Scott Chris ?

Have you got any further squealing to go little S C
or, have you just enough about you left, that now that you have been found out to dissapear with your tail between your
pathetic legs ?
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March 26, 2012 5:57pm
Leaping Jimmy

The Awakening

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=T__JXV1mHFw#!
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March 26, 2012 6:05pm
Scott Chris

I see you’ve actually edited the list to remove any records prior to about 1990.

I’m flabbergasted and astounded at your obstinacy. All these records broken in the last two decades and all you can say is I’ve only selected the records for the last two decades?!?!

Crikey.
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March 26, 2012 6:11pm
bereal

Thanks for that link Leaping Jimmy. But.
Problem is, nobody wants to watch some video you may think is valid for over an hour.

Maybe you could summarise the conclusions first and then link to the video.

These days, who TF has got over an hour to spare to watch sum sing you consider to be important ? Still,

Aroha to you my new friend.
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March 26, 2012 6:15pm
RightNow

You might have missed me repeatedly saying I am not disputing the world has warmed since the end of the little ice age scotty, but I have. That aside, a number of these new records will be as a result of poorly sited recording stations
http://surfacestations.org/ will explain this in more detail, but in a nutshell 1007 of 1221 stations have been examined in the USHCN network and less than 8% of them meet the CRN1 or CRN2 criteria:
“Class 1 (CRN1)- Flat and horizontal ground surrounded by a clear surface with a slope below 1/3 (under 19deg). Grass/low vegetation ground cover under 10 centimeters high. Sensors located at least 100 meters from artificial heating or reflecting surfaces, such as buildings, concrete surfaces, and parking lots. Far from large bodies of water, except if it is representative of the area, and then located at least 100 meters away. No shading when the sun elevation over 3 degrees.

Class 2 (CRN2) – Same as Class 1 with the following differences. Surrounding Vegetation under 25 centimeters. No artificial heating sources within 30m. No shading for a sun elevation over 5deg.”

FYI I believe the medieval warm period was likely to have been as warm as the present, and there is a huge amount of (peer reviewed) evidence to support this.
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March 26, 2012 6:20pm
bereal

Now little Scott Chris is screaming in double black.

Doesn’t work little Scott Chris.
If your message is effing puke it doesn’t matter how you emphasise it, it is still puke.

Maybe you should try stamping your foot.
Like a little girl.
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March 26, 2012 6:21pm
Leaping Jimmy

bereal, the Awakening covers such topics as within each atom of your body there also lies another seemingly endless universe and that the universe in which we live also exists within the nucleus of an atom. Then it goes on to discuss politics as well.

I realise some would prefer Shortland Street. Shame on them, IMHO.

Just watch it for 10 mins, you’ll soon see if its your cup of tea or not.
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March 26, 2012 6:28pm
bereal

OK Leaping Jimmy
i will give it 10 mins or so on your recomendation and report back later .
Onya.
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March 26, 2012 6:32pm
RightNow

griff
“Right now my link = your link You have now admitted global climate change is true you are just disputing the level of change are you going to accept the findings of IPCC when it comes out this year after all your study will be considered along with all the rest.”

I have never disputed the climate changes. I have even expressly stated to you that I answered YES to both questions in the survey used to propagate the claim that 97% of climate scientists agree about global warming.
I have explicitly stated to you many times that my main contentions are 1) the amount humans contribute to warming, 2) the projected warming (climate sensitivity) and 3) whether a moderate amount (about 2 deg C) of warming would be detrimental or beneficial.

With regard to the IPCC why do you give them a free pass on accepting non peer-reviewed material? From memory it was about 40% of their cited material in 2007 that was not peer reviewed. I will not blindly accept what that organisation says and, to be blunt, you’re a fucking idiot if you do.

Do you have any idea how much Pachauri earns from Tata? That is one serious conflict of interest.
Do you care that the IPCC has put mechanisms in place to be able to hide from FOIA requests?

True or not who cares eh griff?
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March 26, 2012 6:36pm
RightNow

PS griff, “my link = your link”. thanks for at least conceding that there is legitimate disagreement and not a consensus.
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March 26, 2012 6:39pm
mikenmild

RightNow
I’m interested in your assertion that ‘the IPCC has put mechanisms in place to be able to hide from FOIA requests’. I may be wrong, but isn’t the IPCC a UN-mandated body? How would US freedom of information laws be applicable to it?
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March 26, 2012 6:44pm
Griff

KK Considering climate change is the most significant environmental crisis facing humanity is it little wounder that the science gets funded
from you link climate money billions if not trillions of dollars little vague and great exaggeration dont you think
joe nova is a pr driven altie nut job why as i said would i critique anything written by a blogger with her views shes as nutty as the rest of the denial weirdos
You all swear black and blue that the altie community is correct and mainstream is wrong get used to being derided for being nut jobs it goes with your fringe beliefs

as right now has linked to a site affiliated to watts …fail big time…watts is a fringe loony anyone that excepts watts word is also by default a fringe looney
seven of the eight warmest years on record have occurred since 2001 and the 10 warmest years have all occurred since 1995. http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/faqs/climfaq03.html
love you nutters you are so stupid in worshiping alt science its funny in the extreme. :LOL:
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March 26, 2012 6:48pm
RightNow

CEI [Competitive Enterprise Institute] has learned of a UN plan recently put in place to hide official correspondence on non-governmental accounts, which correspondence a federal inspector general has already confirmed are subject to FOIA. This ‘cloud’ serves as a dead-drop of sorts for discussions by U.S. government employees over the next report being produced by the scandal-plagued IPCC [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change], which is funded with millions of U.S. taxpayer dollars.

…

This effort has apparently been conducted with participation — thereby direct assistance and enabling — by the Obama White House which, shortly after taking office, seized for Holdren’s office the lead role on IPCC work from the Department of Commerce. The plan to secretly create a FOIA-free zone was then implemented.
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March 26, 2012 6:49pm
joana

Yesterday , other Andy provided a link to this article in the Australian..”How I lost faith in Multiculturalism,” by Greg Sheridan. It is a good read. In it somewhere he says that people who do not think islam is a danger , come from another planet. I agree.
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March 26, 2012 6:57pm
mikenmild

The CEI, really? Ha ha. But you do realize that the FOIA would not apply to an UN organization, right?
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March 26, 2012 7:11pm
bereal

joana
and perhaps the biggest danger of all in NZ is the P.C. fifth column such as the likes mukenmild and
little Scott Chris. ( some people actually think that these PC loons have a valid point, ie it will be all good and different
in New Zealand because we, are the one country who loves our muslims more than any other therefore then they, the muslims
in NZ will give up the fundamental concepts of their faith to be our mates.)

Angela Merke,l GDr and Cameron, UK have both declared that multicultralism is a crock of shit.
At least as far as it concerns muslim immigrants.

How long does New Zealand have to struggle on, influenced by the perverse ideas that one sick fuck (Helen Clark)
inflickted on us before we find we are able to think for ourselves and realise that muslims are poison ?
Check out Twinkletoes @ 3.40 am in yesterdays general debate
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March 26, 2012 7:16pm
mikenmild

bereal
You are funny.
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March 26, 2012 7:18pm
Scott Chris

In it somewhere he says that people who do not think islam is a danger , come from another planet. I agree.

Joana, I do think that Muslims are dangerous. They are human. Humans are dangerous. Not as dangerous as us aliens though… 😉
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March 26, 2012 7:45pm
mikenmild

I hadn’t realised I come from another planet. Thanks joanna, that clears it all up.
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March 26, 2012 7:56pm
nasska

Two elderly women were eating breakfast in a restaurant one morning.
Ethel noticed something funny about Mabel’s ear and she said
, ‘”Mabel, do you know you’ve got a suppository in your left ear?”
Mabel answered, “I have a suppository in my ear?”
She pulled it out and stared at it. Then she said,
“Ethel, I’m glad you saw this thing. Now I think I know where to find my hearing aid.
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March 26, 2012 8:03pm
RightNow

Lol griff, every time you can’t think of a good argument you fall back on calling people names, you’re so predictable.

Score 21- nil in my favour (and that’s only this month). you’re useless.

Dikinchild, didn’t you read this bit: ” which correspondence a federal inspector general has already confirmed are subject to FOIA”?
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March 26, 2012 8:04pm
mikenmild

RightNow
You really don’t think too much about how your comments read, do you? They’re conspiracy theory central. Quite laughable.
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March 26, 2012 8:10pm
krazykiwi

The Griff that keeps on giving. Mate, you have yet to string together a coherent, convincing argument. Your favourite form of debate appears to be slinging ad hominems towards anyone who doesn’t share a slavish thought linage from Gore, Pachauri and Mann.
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March 26, 2012 8:17pm
nasska

Regardless of whether AGW & the scientific/nonscientific arguments are right or wrong there is one truth that no one can miss.
If the IPCC comes under the auspices of the United Nations it will be corrupt & as bent as a banana.

On this basis alone I wouldn’t trust them if they said that day follows night.
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March 26, 2012 8:19pm

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