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March 24, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 24 March 2012

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General Debate

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david

surely not …. couldn’t be!
be still my beating heart
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March 24, 2012 8:07am
david

Yay!!!
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March 24, 2012 8:07am
Pete George

Nasty ‘sentiments’ within unions, and nastiness within parts of Labour, are not just accepted but promoted seemingly with pride, starting from this comment: http://thestandard.org.nz/poals-illegal-lockout-adds-to-aucklands-losses/comment-page-1/#comment-450301 and running right through 13.2.2.2
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March 24, 2012 8:18am
Pete George

And why shouldn’t the scabs be packing themselves, anyway? They made a concious choice to attack their fellow workers and now they’re on the losing side. As the London piece says;

“No man has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with.

I’d suggest the Waitemata is a perfectly adequate pool of water for that purpose.

That’s just ‘sentiment’ apparently.
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March 24, 2012 8:21am
Scott Chris

Oh dear.

Kazakhstan’s shooting team has been left stunned after a comedy national anthem from the film Borat was played at a medal ceremony.
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March 24, 2012 8:30am
Leaping Jimmy

Nasty ‘sentiments’ within unions, and nastiness within parts of Labour, are not just accepted but promoted seemingly with pride…

Yes lefties certainly are scum aren’t they Pete. I just can’t believe anyone with a 3-digit IQ and an intact set of ethics is happy to associate themselves with leftism, yet many do.

What the hell are such people thinking? Are they so unbelievably naive they allow their hearts to overrule the clear and present evidence that leftism is in fact the most unethical political position on the spectrum? They must be, it’s the only possible explanation for there is no question that leftism is in fact just that, everyone knows that and the Stranded people merely serve as one of the thousands of demonstrable examples of that on a daily, nay hourly basis.
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March 24, 2012 8:32am
Pete George

I don’t see it as blanket leftism, many leftishists are fine, and there are degrees of left in all of us. I think it’s just those who are arrogant about their leftishness.

Are the class war promoters (often with union connections) more dangerous to New Zealand than Tama Iti? Probably, I don’t think Iti is more of a fantasist addressing genuine issues than than a threat.
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March 24, 2012 8:44am
flipper

Pete, to paraphrase…

To port, to port?
But I left my port at home….

In 2012 they are a rudderless lot, acting somewhat like the sirens of yore.

With them, its SS DD
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March 24, 2012 8:51am
Scott Chris

Crappy law left on the books:

The Government has wiped plans to fix anti-terrorism legislation found wanting when police sought to lay charges carrying a maximum 14-year jail term after the Urewera raids.

Even though:

The [former] Solicitor General ruled out using the act, which he described as “unnecessarily complex, incoherent and as a result almost impossible to apply to the domestic circumstances observed by the police in this case”.

Odd.
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March 24, 2012 8:51am
Brian Smaller

Oh dear.

That was the funniest link on the GD thread I have read in ages. Thanks Scott Chris.
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March 24, 2012 9:04am
adze

Well done the Hurricanes! Next target: consistency!
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March 24, 2012 9:17am
Redbaiter

[DPF: You say derogatory things about hundreds of other people – things which can affect their jobs, their careers, their reputations. Yet you refuse to use your actual name so people can hold you responsible for what you say. I call that cowering. It takes courage to say this is who I am, these are my views, and I’ll let people judge me on them]

This little rant is an attempt by Mr. Farrar to justify his enthusiastic participation and published left wing viewpoints in the socialist establishment’s latest attacks on internet freedom.

Lesson- judge people by what they do, not by what they say.
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March 24, 2012 9:25am
Bed Rater

“Judge people by what they do, not by what they say.”

Yes Russell, but unlike you or me, DPF willingly puts his name to his opinions. You are simply a coward, frightened of retribution.
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March 24, 2012 9:30am
Redbaiter

Thanks for the laff, and yet another great illustration of how eternally fucked in the head the left are. 🙂
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March 24, 2012 9:32am
Pete George

Yep, a fantastic finish for the Hurricanes but I must admit to feeling for the Blues player blues at the end – Highlander supporters of past years learn that sort of empathy.
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March 24, 2012 9:34am
labours a joke

“mikenmild (3,247) Says:
March 24th, 2012 at 7:03 am
There is such a strong strain of fantasy among the islamaphobes of Kiwiblog. What they don’t understand; they fear, and they actually seem quite proud of their ignorance.”

Another useful idiot when the time comes. Do you walk around in another universe? Why cant you not see Islam and everything associated with it is bad. And dont call me ignorant you blind foolish sandle wearing clown.
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March 24, 2012 9:39am
Dean Papa

hmm … same judge, slightly different outcomes,

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/woman-fined-cooking-dog-4747944

http://www.3news.co.nz/Charges-dismissed-for-dog-shooter/tabid/423/articleID/247848/Default.aspx
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March 24, 2012 9:41am
Pete George

I can understand someone with wacky extreme views, open ambitions for violent revolution and a penchant for personal attacks, like Russbaiter, wanting to hide behind a pseudonym. Like dogwood, plenty of bark but no real guts.
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March 24, 2012 9:43am
mikenmild

labours a joke
You are ignorant.
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March 24, 2012 9:46am
joana

Labours a joke..
One day , MnM will wake up , maybe not anytime soon , but one day. I always want to ask these kinds of people, when did they live in an islamic country? Usually , they have never set foot in an islamic country. They are very theoretical people..
I think the correct term he was looking for was islamonausea.
Did you read Lance’s post yesterday? He changed his views markedly when he traveled in the Middle East.
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March 24, 2012 9:53am
mikenmild

joanna
It’s always a bit of a wake up to view the casual bigotry that is Kiwiblog.
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March 24, 2012 9:57am
labours a joke

He wont wake up Joana , he’s too thick to see the wood for the trees. Fool.
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March 24, 2012 9:57am
Keeping Stock

It’s going to be wonderful hearing the Queensland results come in tonight; there’s suggestions that Labor will win as few as TWELVE out of 89 seats. Oh dear; how sad; never mind…

http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2012/03/labors-day-of-reckoning.html
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March 24, 2012 10:02am
David Garrett

Redbaiter: Do you think I am on “the left”? (Christ, maybe you do…) Well I am 100% with DPF on this..

DPF: Why dont you out him? It’s your blog…iF you want to be really caring and sharing perhaps you could give him a choice…post under your own name for piss off…

Joana: spot on …it’s not quite the same thing, but I find those who have never actually lived in the Pacific are the most ignorant of life there…Actually if I recall, Mikey claims to have spent three weeks on Morrocco from memory…
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March 24, 2012 10:03am
Redbaiter

Pete, you’re a disgusting person, but just this once, I am going to try and reach out to you-

The democratic system is destroyed. The left have conspired to turn each election into a socialist farce. You participate in the sham that is called democracy these days you are wasting your time and providing support for those who would enslave you.

Very few of the wrongs that exist today will be addressed through a system as corrupt as our democracy today.

The most effective way to fight tyranny is underground. Always has been, always will be.

I will continue the fight to sway public opinion away from socialism, and in the smallness of time available for me to do this, I will do a million times more by publishing my words on the internet than I ever will by becoming part of the broken down corrupt and tyrannical system that democracy is today in NZ, (where even David Farrar is cheering for those who would suppress dissent.)

The current tyrannical leftist regime will not be defeated other than by underground revolution.
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March 24, 2012 10:12am
Other_Andy

Let me get this right MM.

You defend an ideology that upholds Mohammed, who was a murderer, torturer, thief, slaver, liar and a rapist, as an “exalted character” and someone to emulate?
An ideology that is opposed to the freedom of speech and considers women to be deficient in intelligence and worth less than a man?
An ideology that opposes the Declaration of Human Rights?
An ideology that spreads by violence, intimidation, and coercion?

And you call “Labours a Joke” ignorant?
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March 24, 2012 10:14am
Redbaiter

Mr Garret, I supported you whole heartedly on many a thread on Kiwiblog. (look it up)

Then you turned into a whiney surrender monkey and caved to the left. Apologising and crying like a baby.

Now you’re most often found on here writing pieces that are phrased in left wing language and framed from left wing thought processes. No longer any kind of fighter.

You were defeated by a corrupt system. Why don’t you wake up?
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March 24, 2012 10:15am
Graeme Edgeler

“Redbaiter: Do you think I am on “the left”?”

David G – who was your New Zealand political hero again?
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March 24, 2012 10:20am
Pete George

Redbaiter, why don’t you take your revolution to others that talk up that approach, there’s a few at The Standard.

I’m confident what I’ve chosen to try has much more chance of improving one of the best systems of democratic government since civilisation began than your sideline dreams of wrecking it and installing your own extreme ideals.
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March 24, 2012 10:31am
mikenmild

Let me get this right Other_Andy.

You attack anyone who happens to be unafraid of Muslims as a defender of whatever beliefs (you say) Islam represents?
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March 24, 2012 10:35am
Pete George

A street thug that claimed a prison sentence was a bit harsh for starting an altercation and continuing to bludgeon an unconcious victim on the ground has been given a further reality check by the court of appeal.

Tough stand taken on street violence. Good.
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March 24, 2012 10:36am
Ford Anglia

Leaping Jimmy – the problem is the majority of leftists do not have a 3 digit IQ.
Averages in the high 2 digit range would be more accurate, and think Ethics is an English Home County.

Leftists are tormented with invidia, making them extremely easy to be choreographed by the smarter and more manipulative of the collective (c.f. the troika of Helens – Clark, Simpson and Kelly; add the Union and Labour/Green leadership to this in here too).

Ford.
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March 24, 2012 10:37am
Redbaiter

“installing your own extreme ideals.”

Yep, that’s so right Pete. The government that merely looks after records, and the armed forces, and runs an effective justice system, and is one hundredth the size of what it is today, will be a much greater force of compulsion than the system you support today.

You always have been a waste of time Cerium, any you always will be.
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March 24, 2012 10:37am
Pete George

That’s exactly what I referred to, extreme ideals.

You didn’t mention:
– your 19th century education system
– your 1950s style patriarchal license to beat and control wives and children
– your hanging of all journalists (except for Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck)
– your hanging of all current politicians
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March 24, 2012 10:45am
Redbaiter

Wow, so the 19th century and the 1950’s were all about “extremism”.

Thanks for the history lesson.
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March 24, 2012 10:53am
gander

@Ford Anglia at 10:37 am: “the troika of Helens – Clark, Simpson and Kelly. . .”

Helen Simpson was president of ACT on Campus.

You’re thinking of Ms Clark’s eminence grise Heather Simpson.

I don’t think Helen Simpson would be pleased by the comparison.
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March 24, 2012 11:00am
Other_Andy

@MM

“…… whatever beliefs (you say) Islam represents?”

I say?
What do “I say” that is incorrect MM or are you just ‘blowing hot air’ as usual?
As for the adherents of Islam, for any religious group, or political party, it is entirely reasonable for outsiders to regard the doctrine, as the default outlook of the followers. The doctrine is the koran MM. I don’t need to make anything up, it is written black and white for anybody to read. Those who identify themselves with a religion which denies the human rights of everyone else, and a faith community which is involved in violence and mayhem all over the world, deserve to be treated with reserve and kept at arms length.
Ignorant people defending adherents of violent, misogynistic and undemocratic ideologies, like you do, have caused and still cause a lot of grief.
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March 24, 2012 11:06am
adze

“Tough stand taken on street violence. Good.”

Agreed Pete, random violence is absolutely despicable (I’ve also been a victim of it). No sympathy or excuses for the clown involved.
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March 24, 2012 11:07am
Pete George

Wow, so the 19th century and the 1950′s were all about “extremism”.

No, but thinking you can replicate some fanciful version of them in the 21st century in your sort of dictatorship is.

People can learn from history lessons, there’s a few newer readers and commenters here who may not have witnessed your last hissy fit with DPF followed by self imposed exile where you bitterly criticised Kiwiblog and DPF. And just about everything and everyone else.

Far right is commonly associated with persons or groups who hold extreme nationalist, xenophobic, racist, religious fundamentalist, or reactionary views. Typically the term is applied to fascists and neo-Nazis, although there is a running dispute among scholars about where fascism resides along the left/right spectrum. However major elements of fascism have been deemed as clearly far right, such as its goals of the right of superior people to dominate while purging society of claimed inferior elements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

You’ll probably call most that comparitively communist, but “such as its goals of the right of superior people to dominate while purging society of claimed inferior elements” sounds very much like you and your lampposts.
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March 24, 2012 11:08am
Redbaiter

Andy, the greatest identifier of any leftist is the complete lack of any ethical checking device within their psychology.
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March 24, 2012 11:09am
mikenmild

O_A
Does ‘adherents of violent, misogynistic and undemocratic ideologies’ include Jews and Christians?
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March 24, 2012 11:14am
Scott Chris

You defend an ideology that upholds Mohammed, who was a murderer, torturer, thief, slaver, liar and a rapist, as an “exalted character” and someone to emulate?

Sure, Islam is a crock, as is Christianity but in the end you can only defeat it by engaging its followers and infusing them with reason. So you tolerate them and trade with them and facilitate their transition to a secular docile middle class society like our own. It may be vapid and materialistic, but at least it’s essentially peaceable.

Or you can side with brainless twats like labours-a-joke, redbaiter and joanna who really belong in an asylum along side Sgt Robert Bales and Mohamed Merah.
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March 24, 2012 11:19am
Other_Andy

“Does ‘adherents of violent, misogynistic and undemocratic ideologies’ include Jews and Christians?”
You need to get out a bit more MM.
Islam is unique among all religions of the world, since its doctrine, theology and legal system all mandate warfare against unbelievers. Moreover, the peace that Islam envisions will only come: “when everyone is a Muslim or at least subject to the Islamic state…to establish that peace, Muslims must wage war. It should also be noted that all four principal schools of Sunni Muslim jurisprudence agree on the importance of jihad warfare against non-Muslims, in accordance with the koran.
What you don’t grasp is that the theological blueprints of major religions other than Islam in no way condone violence or perversion. Islam’s theological blueprint most definitely does condone these two things and it can be traced to Mohammed, a brutal, perverted, self-serving, self-aggrandizing mysoganist, quite the contrast to other relgious and ethical founders like Jesus, Buddha, Confucius, Zoroaster and Lao-tzu. Certain followers of any religion will be wicked or deeply confused, but this doesn’t taint the religion per se EXCEPT in the case of Islam which is itself malevolent and really messed up.
Think you can finally get this?
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March 24, 2012 11:20am
David Garrett

Pete George and Adze: No offence intended gents, but your characterizing this sentence as a “tough stand on street violence” actually demonstates how weak and gun shy we have all become (except Redbaiter of course, he is the only purist left).

For a start, because of the Clark government’s Sentencing Act, this sentence of 23 months – being no doubt deliberately one month shy of the two year threshold – means the prick will serve twelve months only. This is the kind of attack that could easily – and often does – turn into a homicide.

In my maiden speech I mentioned an assault conviction incurred by Elton John’s manager in 1974 while Elton was touring NZ. The manager pushed Judith Baragwanath to the ground. That’s it, no injuries, no weapon used. He got sentenced to six months in Mt Eden, which was confirmed on appeal, the appellate court saying something like “While this might be acceptable where you live, we dont put up with that kind of behaviour in New Zealand.” And he did six months, not three. THAT was tough. But of course it is a total co-incidence that since 1974 our violent crime rate has increased exponentially.
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March 24, 2012 11:27am
labours a joke

“defeat it by engaging its followers and infusing them with reason.”

Bawhahahahahaha!!

Then we all stand around in a circle holding hands singing kumbaya.!! You twat. You really are comedy gold scottchris
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March 24, 2012 11:28am
Pete George

Islam is unique among all religions of the world, since its doctrine, theology and legal system all mandate warfare against unbelievers.

Similar could be claimed about some forms of Christianity at some times in history, if you extend warfare to include torture, execution and extermination.
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March 24, 2012 11:29am
David Garrett

labour’s a joke: exactly…how can it escape people with even a modicum of intelligence that blind obedience to the dictates of the religion of peace demonstrates that no amount of reasoning will work with its adherents? Just like a fundy Christian…the main difference being that except in certain counties in the US where there is something in the water, fundy Christians dont give people the choice of either joining them or dying!
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March 24, 2012 11:39am
Other_Andy

“Sure, Islam is a crock, as is Christianity but in the end you can only defeat it by engaging its followers and infusing them with reason.”

You sound like Neville Chamberlain.
In his defence, he might not have read “Mein Kampf” and Hitler didn’t explicitly-literally state that he would murder all the Jews and would subjugate all of Europe.
However, the koran IS widely available in libraries, bookshops and the internet and the Koran IS quite explicit in that it literally states its aims of killing and\or subjugating the Jews and its desire to conquer the world by violence, coercion and indoctrination.
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March 24, 2012 11:40am
Other_Andy

“Similar could be claimed about some forms of Christianity at some times in history, if you extend warfare to include torture, execution and extermination.”

Thanks for the disclaimer Pete.
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March 24, 2012 11:43am
Other_Andy

@Pete

“Similar could be claimed about some forms of Christianity at some times in history, if you extend warfare to include torture, execution and extermination.”

And apart from the disclaimer…..

Over 18,000 documented Islamic terrorist attacks worldwide just since 9/11.
How many Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish or Christian terrorist attacks have there been since then?
Where can I find videos on the web of beheadings carried out by Hindus?
Where are the Buddhists flying planes into buildings and beheading people on the internet?
Where are the catholics gunmen killing Muslims simply because they are Muslim?
Where are the Christian suicide bombers?
When Presbyterians start blowing themselves up in restaurants, Jews start sawing off heads, Catholics begin taking hostages, Methodists produce scores of fanatics who chant death to Saudi Arabia and Lutherans threaten death for anyone who suggests that Jesus wasn’t divine, get back to me and I’ll reconsider things.
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March 24, 2012 11:48am
labours a joke

..oohh Id love to hear milkmikes and scottchris thoughts on Other_Andys brilliant post @11.48..
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March 24, 2012 11:52am
Pete George

Other_Andy – christianity seems to have pretty much self reformed – that mostly came from people from within christianity campaigning for change, modernisation and civilisation. I doubt that it happened because Muslims kept calling all of them violent fundamentalists.

If you condemn and ostracise every Muslim forever you assist their more archaic entrenchment.
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March 24, 2012 11:53am
mikenmild

Yes, there are terrorist crimes committed by Islamic extremist. Is Other_Andy’s point that these are the only crimes in the world. And how many people have dies as a result of the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq? Would that be a tad more than the number of deaths in the terrorist attacks?
Crimes by Muslims doesn’t make Islam evil, any more than pedophilia by priests makes all Catholics evil or crimes by Maori make all Maori evil.
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March 24, 2012 11:59am
Leaping Jimmy

Saturday’s cognitive dissonance:

Eric Hoffer’s classic – The True Believer

This book deals with some peculiarities common to all mass movements, be they religious movements, social revolutions or nationalist movements. It does not maintain that all movements are identical, but that they share certain essential characteristics which give them a family likeness.

All mass movements generate in their adherents a readiness to die and a proclivity for united action; all of them, irrespective of the doctrine they preach and the program they project, breed fanaticism, enthusiasm, fervent hope, hatred and intolerance; all of them are capable of releasing a powerful flow of activity in certain departments of life; all of them demand blind faith and singlehearted allegiance.
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March 24, 2012 12:04pm
Other_Andy

@Pete

“If you condemn and ostracise every Muslim forever you assist their more archaic entrenchment.”

First, I don’t condemn every muslim. Most muslims are simply muslims because their parents are muslims, it was (economically and socially) advantageous to be a muslim or because they had simply no choice. The majority of muslims are illiterate and have never read the Koran.

Secondly, how do you drag them out of their “archaic entrenchment” if they are told (and believe) that the Quran is the immutable, unchanged, and unchangeable word of God, as revealed to his messenger, Muhammad. That the Koran upholds Muhammed as ‘al-insan al-kamil’ or ‘the perfect man’, to be emulated by all Muslims. That islam is the answer to all questions and that its fundamental tenets may not be altered, since it is taken to originate by Divine command?
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March 24, 2012 12:05pm
Scott Chris

Sure there have been terrorist attacks. So what do the IRA and ETA and the Shining Path and Al Qaeda all have in common?

An enemy.

So what do you do to stop them?

You stop being their enemy. Duh. Getting out of their countries and dismantling settlements would be a good place to start.
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March 24, 2012 12:10pm
Other_Andy

@MM

“Crimes by Muslims doesn’t make Islam evil, any more than pedophilia by priests makes all Catholics evil or crimes by Maori make all Maori evil.”

I was afraid you wouldn’t get it.
I will say it one more time….it’s the ideology!
The theological blueprints of major religions other than Islam in no way condone violence or perversion. Islam’s theological blueprint most definitely does condone these two things.
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March 24, 2012 12:11pm
mikenmild

Ha ha. And you think there is no biblical justification for murder or other things we would consider crimes today?
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March 24, 2012 12:13pm
Other_Andy

“You stop being their enemy. Duh. Getting out of their countries and dismantling settlements would be a good place to start.”

So this all started with Iraq, Afghanistan…Israel?
There were no hijackings, beheadings, terror attacks and bombings in the name of allah before that?
Jews were left alone and weren’t the target of muslim massacres before Israel was founded?
Duh.
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March 24, 2012 12:17pm
mikenmild

I’ll think you will find Jews were more likely to be the victims of Christian massacres.
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March 24, 2012 12:19pm
Scott Chris

I will say it one more time….it’s the ideology!
The theological blueprints of major religions other than Islam in no way condone violence or perversion. Islam’s theological blueprint most definitely does condone these two things.

Bollocks. Islam is a religion of peace if you choose to see it that way. It is a religion of war if you choose to see it that way.

Y’see, religion isn’t really the problem. It’s just the excuse.
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March 24, 2012 12:22pm
bereal

If i was the type to call people silly names then i might describe little mikenmild as excreable.

This little twerp uses the same simple infantile tactic again and again, because, (thats all he has)
viz.
Attribute a specious argument to the other side,
then scoff at it or ask questions about it.

Check out a twerpish post @ 10.35 and every post subsequent.
And the thing is, twerps can keep this shit up ad infinitum.
A twerp will never tire of using such transparent methods.
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March 24, 2012 12:26pm
Other_Andy

mikenmild

“Ha ha. And you think there is no biblical justification for murder or other things we would consider crimes today?”

You don’t read posts, make accusations you can’t back up, you don’t answer questions and you are displaying the logical reasoning of a 4 year old.
Does ‘straw-man’ ring a bell?
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March 24, 2012 12:26pm
Pete George

Redbaiter reminded me I hadn’t bothered to check out his Crusading bunny hoppers for a while. Nothing much seems to have changed.

Time for the rope and tree. Now.
Posted on March 24, 2012 by KG

Seriously. It’s time to kill a few of these fuckers as a warning to the rest to back off.

I don’t know if Keith is still in Australia or not.
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March 24, 2012 12:28pm
Scott Chris

So this all started with Iraq, Afghanistan…Israel?

More recently yes, but the Crusades probably got the ball rolling.
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March 24, 2012 12:31pm
Other_Andy

“Bollocks. Islam is a religion of peace if you choose to see it that way.”

Here it comes again….
This is what I meant yesterday when I called you ethnocentric.
I doesn’t matter how YOU define it.
Peace has a different meaning for muslims.
I explained that yesterday.
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March 24, 2012 12:31pm
bereal

mikenmild

just for you.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/twerp
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March 24, 2012 12:31pm
Yvette

Just what was it that Jesus forgot to teach, that God sent Muhammad to impart?
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March 24, 2012 12:33pm
Other_Andy

@Scott Chris

“More recently yes, but the Crusades probably got the ball rolling.”

Right, so it started with the crusades….

630 30,000 jihadists attack the Byzantine Christians.
644—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus.
673—678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire
711—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus.
719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governor
732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers
785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova
807 Caliph Harun al—Rashid orders the destruction of non—Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem
809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy
813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country
831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy
850 Caliph al—Matawakkil orders the destruction of non—Muslim houses of prayer
837—901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France
937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked
966 Anti—Christian riots in Jerusalem
1003 First persecutions by al—Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed
1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al—Hakim (see 937)
1012 Beginning of al—Hakim’s oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians
1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia
1090—1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands
1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

So it is only after all of the Islamic aggressive invasions that Western Christendom launches its first Crusades.
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March 24, 2012 12:34pm
F E Smith

Scott Chris,

The IRA hasn’t engaged in terrorist attacks since, from memory, the 1940s or 50s. You mean the PIRA, I think, which is the terrorist organisation formed in the 1960s in Northern Ireland.

Interestingly, the IRA, the PIRA, Sinn Fein, and the Shining Path are all explicitly left wing, slightly to the left of the Greens.
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March 24, 2012 12:38pm
mikenmild

Other_Andy
If I provided a similar, perhaps even more extensive list of aggressions by ‘Christian’ nations, would that demonstrate anything about Christianity?
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March 24, 2012 1:01pm
Scott Chris

Okay Andy, I concede the point. The Crusades didn’t start the ball rolling.

Fact is, the ball has always been rolling since one tribe looked at the next tribe and decided they wanted a piece of their action.

And if they could use some piece of ideology to promote their expansionist cause, then they’d do so.
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March 24, 2012 1:04pm
Jack5

A FRESH BONE TO GNAW ON…

The headline signalling breaking news on the Hooer-ald web site read: Sir Paul Callaghan passes away.

Passes away? Passes away? Why doesn’t anyone die any more?

You can understand someone using grades of euphemisms for death depending on whether they are talking to the dead person’s spouse, children, family, workmates, friends, acquaintances, fellow golfers or bowlers or such.

But why has the Mainstream Media put cotton wool around death when they are tasteless jackals about so many other aspects of society? Not that this is new. “Passes away” goes back centuries. However it has resurfaced strongly in today’s MSM.

What happens when “passes away” gets too brutal for the MSM hacks, as all euphemisms eventually do.
First it will be just “passed”. Then, what? Some suggestions for them:

Bit the dust (goes back to Homer, when soldiers “bit the earth”)

Bought the farm (originally one for tired soldiers, but appropriate for rural NZ?)

Bought it (for when “bought the farm” becomes too stark for the MSM mob).

Breathed his/her last

Brown bread (he/she is…) – rhyming slang

Checked out

Croaked

Deleted – been deleted

Departed

Gave up the ghost (for spirtualists and similar)

Fell off the perch (centuries old)

Fell off the twig (for deceased members of Forest and Bird)

Slipped her/his cable

Begun the Big Sleep

Kicked the bucket (one suggestion of origin: another meaning for “bucket” as a beam, from which butchers hung carcases).

Cashed in his/her chips (now that we have casinos)

Shuffled off his/her mortal coil (for auto electricians or electrical engineers? In fact this is from Shakespeare’s Hamlet. In those days coil meant rush or turmoil or busy-ness)
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March 24, 2012 1:09pm
Other_Andy

@mikenmild

“If I provided a similar, perhaps even more extensive list of aggressions by ‘Christian’ nations, would that demonstrate anything about Christianity?”

Go ahead MM, provide a more extensive list of ‘Christian’ nations (As a side show I would love to see what your definition of a Christian nation is.) agressions that led to the Crusades.
Don’t just blow hot air as per usual, provide the goods.
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March 24, 2012 1:09pm
Scott Chris

Andy, I suggest you look up the word ethnocentric. Anthropocentric I may be but certainly not ethnocentric. Quite the opposite in fact.

You on the other hand undoubtedly are ethnocentric.
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March 24, 2012 1:14pm
Other_Andy

“Andy, I suggest you look up the word ethnocentric. Anthropocentric maybe but certainly not ethnocentric. Quite the opposite in fact.”

Your judgement of other people is based on your own values which makes you ethnocentric.
This is not a criticism per se, just an observation.
However, when you use words like ‘peace’ in the context of the debate on islam it becomes confusing as you obviously mean the ‘western’ concept of the word ‘peace’ and not the ‘muslim’ concept of the word peace.
You define the meaning of (the word-concept) peace based on YOUR understanding of the word.
This is ethnocentric.
For a muslim the words, ‘peace’ and even simple words like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ have a different meaning.
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March 24, 2012 1:29pm
nasska

Scott Chris

Other_Andy’s use of the word “ethnocentric’ last night sent me to the Concise Collins dictionary:

1) Ethnocentrism: The belief in the intrinsic superiority of the nation, culture or group to which one belongs.

And then to:

2) Wikipaedia: Ethnocentrism is judging another culture solely by the values and standards of one’s own culture.

So, since you rubbish your own culture #1 is out but as you judge Islam using Western values #2 is quite an reasonable adjective to use to describe your stance.
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March 24, 2012 1:35pm
tom hunter

“Sure, Islam is a crock, as is Christianity but in the end you can only defeat it by engaging its followers and infusing them with reason.”

This actually goes to the heart of the problem, which is not the beliefs of Muslims or even their degree of fidelity to the Koran, but the incredible reluctance of the West to confront these religious and cultural beliefs, especially the reluctance of that group that otherwise prides itself on doing so with other religions and other cultures – the Western Secular Left. Admittedly religious believers are very unlikely to change their beliefs, especially as a result of debate or confrontation with secularists trying to infuse them with reason, but there is little attempt made in the case of Islam, beyond quietly spoken dismissals that it’s a “crock”.

What is more practical is the simple requirement that a society prevent any religion from being able to exert its beliefs on the rest of the population via the power of the state. The West has done that with incremental success over the last few hundred years, often with the support of very religious people who saw that losing the opportunity to gain such power was outweighed by the opportunity to escape the persecution they had suffered at the hands of other religions; the Quakers in the US being a great example.

But such protection is not simply a matter of written laws arrived at democratically. It also requires an ongoing engagement from the people, both secular and religious. I think the Western Left implicitly understand that, in their constant fights with Christians over areas such as abortion and gay marriage. I see plenty of willingness to engage and infuse reason in those cases.

But the heart of the problem is that the Western Left – of which Scott Chris and mikenmild are typical examples – collapse like a wet souffle when dealing with Islam on almost any level, including the primary one of philosophical confrontation. Rather than engagement and debate I see them turning away from Islamist threats and intimidation. Not only that, I see them endlessly facing back towards their old, comfortable Western foes and blaming them instead, often for things in the past, such as the Crusades, for which no practical solution exists today. I say “practical” because Islamists would undoubtedly have any number of suggestions for how to correct that, as well as the loss of Andulasia. Hence we get statements like this:

You stop being their enemy.

To see how utterly inane, self-deceptive and deflecting that sentiment is, place it in the context of contemporary Western issues such as abortion and gay marriage. Secularists could stop being the enemy of Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christians in a heartbeat if they would only relinquish their support for both things. Does anybody seriously think that there is any chance that is going to happen? That it even should happen?

Of course not.

But that is exactly what I see from the Western Secular Left (with only a few honourable exceptions) when it comes to dealing with Islamist bullshit, especially the core aspect of Sharia Law, from which almost all else follows. There’s no question that wanting to constantly bring up the Crusades, Western economics, US foreign policy, past colonialism and the rest of the mantra is very easy. It’s also very safe, which is perhaps the primary reason for it always appearing in these arguments.
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March 24, 2012 1:39pm
tom hunter

And here’s a classic example, which I wrote about in a GD thread a couple of weeks ago (yes, these debates are endless).

I think this article has a sadly accurate take on where freedom of speech stands in the West, in that the defence of it is declining:

Back in 1989, most in the Western world were still shocked by the threat against Rushdie, and after some hemming and hawing eventually came out in support of his right to say what he wanted to say about his own, lapsed religion. Today, virtually no one seems to notice or care when Rushdie is once again threatened for his speech. That is because today, Islamist death threats made against persons who speak about Islam-related topics are so commonplace (recall South Park, Charlie Hebdo, and David Letterman). The world is so accustomed to placing the blame on the speakers that there really isn’t much to get indignant about.

What’s most worrying is the way that people you would think would defend free speech have managed to warp themselves into arguing against it. Here’s what the idiot bureau chief of the Paris branch of Time magazine said regarding the bombing of Charlie Hebdo:

Okay, so can we finally stop with the idiotic, divisive, and destructive efforts … to bait Muslim members with petulant, futile demonstrations that “they” aren’t going to tell “us” what can and can’t be done in free societies? Because not only are such Islamophobic antics futile and childish, but they also openly beg for the very violent responses from extremists their authors claim to proudly defy in the name of common good.

Contrast that with this comment in the Thuggery thread, where “toad” proudly talked of being willing to confront political enemies and taking physical punishment. Apparently things like South African rugby tours, union solidarity and environmental causes are worth it.

Threats against free speech from Islamists? Not so much.

Perhaps it’s that the left only have one political enemy – the Western right-wing – allied with a cultural attitude that has arisen from thirty years of Post-Colonialism, where the actions of the “other” are only ever reactions to something our society has done or is doing.
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March 24, 2012 1:45pm
wreck1080

Interesting article on Rubicon today.

The Rubicon CEO is very well paid (well over 600k per year). So, his performance must be exceptional. That is why you pay these people so much right?

However, as reported in the herald. …

The company has failed to deliver on many of its promises, its reporting to shareholders is tardy and it is the third worst performing NZX company over the past 12 months as its share price has plunged 72.3 per cent, from $1.30 to just 36c.

This is another example as to why the market is failing to control CEO salaries.
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March 24, 2012 1:51pm
Other_Andy

OK, some cofusion about the meaning of the concept.
Co-incidently at the core of this argument as well

When I cal you an ethnocentrist I mean the second one “Ethnocentrism is judging another culture solely by the values and standards of one’s own culture.”

I can see your point calling me an ethnocentrist as I judge islam by ‘western’ standards. I believe in freedom of relgion (No, that is not a contradiction), freedom of speech and the equal treatment of people regardless of sex, race and ethnicity. As such, yes I am an ethnocentrist.
You assume that ‘western’ concepts and muslim concepts are the same with your statement “Muslims want what most humans want. Peace, security and freedom.” which means you view the concepts of Peace, security and freedom in an etnocentric way.
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March 24, 2012 1:53pm
krazykiwi

I see the EU eurocrats have declared that the UK government must maintain green subsidies for solar panel power generation. There goes another billion pounds onto the energy bills of the poor and elderly. The UK’s sovereignty is like a tyre with a nail.
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March 24, 2012 1:54pm
nasska

Mind you, the situation could be worse. We could have a commentator who was an……..

ETHNOPHILE

A person, usually of caucasian descent, who has a large interest in people from a variety of ethnic backgrounds which are different from their own. Ethnophile’s usually like to take these people as lovers or close friends.
The Ethnophile made a bee-line for the pygmy at the conference which was about naitive African peoples.

……and also…….

ETHNOSEXUAL

Someone who makes a point of having sex with races & ethnic groups not their own.

………who harboured a secret passion for…….

ETHNOPORNOGRAPHY

The practice of fetishizing other, usually non-Western cultures for purposes of conscious or unconscious valorization of one’s own worldliness and/or openness to cultural difference. May include the open display of jewelry, clothing and other cultural symbols completely incongruous with one’s own identity.

Ethnopornography is usually practiced by white, middle-class, highly educated liberals who claim attraction to the values, beliefs and practices of those whose symbols they adopt because they are somehow more authentic, spiritually complex, and/or true to human nature than their own.

(Thanks to the Urban Dictionary)
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March 24, 2012 2:17pm
publicwatchdog

How many Kiwibloggers agree that if it’s good enough forformer National Party Minister Nick Smith to have to resign over his ‘perceived’ conflict of interest as former ACC Minister, that Prime Minister John Key should equally have to resign over an arguably far worse conflict of interest involving opencast coal minng company – Bathurst Resources Ltd?

Bathurst Resources Ltd, at whose Wellington office opening. NZ Prime Minister John Key ‘officiated’?

To whom is the NZ Prime Minister (and Leader of the NZ National Party) accountable for his arguably corrupt ‘conflict of interest’?

Who will SACK the NZ Prime Minister John Key?

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/smith-departure-strengthens-joyce-faction-114012#comment-340611

24 March 2012

………
When it comes to corrupt ‘conflicts of interests’ – what’s your view (Mathew Hooton) on NZ Prime Minister John Key’s ‘perceived’ pecuniary interest in open-cast coal mining on the conservation estate – given that he is a shareholder in the Bank of America, and the Bank of America is a significant shareholder in Bathurst Resources Ltd?

(As of 24 February 2012, the Bank of America was a substantial holder of shares in Bathurst Resources Ltd:

“Class of Securities (4) – Ordinary

Present Notice “Person’s Votes 72,302,308 Voting Power (5) 10.44%
http://www.bathurstresources.com/files/files/1079_20120229_Change_in_substantial_holding.pdf

NZ Prime Minister John Key is a shareholder in the Bank Of America.

http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/28FF3CC9-5985-4721-B335-776C5EAE81DF/195667/register2011_1.pdf )

Bathurst Resources Ltd being the Australian mining company, at whose Wellington office opening NZ Prime Minister John Key officiated on 21 March 2012?

http://www.3news.co.nz/PM-opens-mining-offices-in-Wgtn/tabid/1607/articleID/247550/Default.aspx

If Nick Smith was forced to resign over his ACC ‘conflict of interest’ – why should John Key not have to resign over an arguably FAR more serious CORRUPT (?) ‘conflict of interest’?

Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption campaigner’
waterpressure@gmail.com
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March 24, 2012 2:32pm
Nostradamus

Uh oh… the thread just went <<< that way <<<
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March 24, 2012 3:22pm
Leaping Jimmy

More Saturday cognitive dissonance: repost.

Defence against the psychopath. Note all the political and religious leaders depicted.

All of them fit the definition based on what I know. Every. Single. One.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MgGyvxqYSbE
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March 24, 2012 3:48pm
chiz

Tom H:Admittedly religious believers are very unlikely to change their beliefs, especially as a result of debate or confrontation with secularists trying to infuse them with reason, but there is little attempt made in the case of Islam

Well, I’ve tried. I met a young muslim in Cathedral square a few years ago and she tried to convert me and I argued back. Unbelievably stupid, even compared to christians.
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March 24, 2012 3:55pm
Leaping Jimmy

More on psychopaths: Aus report on them in the corporate world:

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/201472-Psychopaths-Among-Us-ABC-Report

According to that, 0.5% of women are psychopaths, and 2% are men.

They can’t be cured, since if they get counselling they simply learn how to manipulate people even more. But it occurs to me for the good of all, there should be formal programs in the education systems, recruitment systems and political systems to identify these people for once identified, they lose their power.

Hulun appears to have been a psychopath. She certainly exhibited and continues to exhibit all the symptoms. Look at the damage she did. Lots of others I can think of in politics too, McCully appears to be one, for example.

Last thing any organisation or country needs, is to have these people involved in any way. How much better off would we be now for example, if Hulun had been identified in her twenties?

…secularists trying to infuse them with reason…

Yes. Tell me, has it every occurred to you two particular “secularists” that people with faith aren’t necessarily being irrational, or is that proposition just a bit beyond your ken?

If so, I suggest you do some research in the vast vast vast online archives which now exist on religious scholarship just so you can familiarise yourselves a teeny weeny bit with all the thinking that’s been done on the topic since civilisation began. You might be surprised to learn the state of the knowledge is just a bit more advanced than the average ten-year-old with a learning disability which is where you seem to hallucinate your average person of faith is at.
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March 24, 2012 4:08pm
Johnboy

Is Boag a psychopath or just over endowed LJ? 🙂
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March 24, 2012 4:10pm
mikenmild

LJ
I sure I read somewhere that the psychopath one most often encounters is usually one’s boss.
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March 24, 2012 4:12pm
Johnboy

Must explain why folks on the various benefits all seem to be psychopaths to us workers Milky!
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March 24, 2012 4:17pm
Leaping Jimmy

Speaking of psychopaths and clearly Obama’s one of them, I hope and trust people have been following the very interesting gay allegations that have been coming out for a few years now? This is from January I know but isn’t it funny how all of a sudden people start dying when they might have interesting stuff to tell, like these guys below, Vince Foster during Clinton’s time, the judge who was shot beside Gabrielle Giffords who was reputedly along with Giffords, the most knowledgeable official in the Fast and Furious story, Senator Paul Goldstone, the list goes on.

But the important thing to remember is, this didn’t happen, and if it did, it’s not important anyway.

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/1635/646/Obamas_Gay_Past_Being_Hidden_By_Killing_Ex-Lovers.html

I sure I read somewhere that the psychopath one most often encounters is usually one’s boss.

I’ve met a couple in my life mm that I’d put money on them being. They both worked for the same organisation, interestingly. They used to go to university together and one of them hired the other one. Isn’t that interesting.

Johnboy, Boag doesn’t really seem to fit the profile but hey, you may know something I don’t, in fact I’m sure you know lots of things I don’t 🙂 I’m not sure if tits are a qualifying factor but now that you mention it perhaps I’d better watch it again for that particular factor with my antenna quivering. Whenever tits are involved this normally happens as a matter of course anyway so I don’t expect it to be boring, at all.

I’ll let you know in about half an hour.
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March 24, 2012 4:31pm
Johnboy

Spencer reportedly died of septicemia, pneumonia, and HIV on December 26, 2007. (Death certificates of Bland and Young, HERE.)”

So there is hope Obummer wont live long enough to stand in the next election LJ?
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March 24, 2012 4:35pm
mikenmild

So he’s not just a secret Muslim and a communist, he’s also gay? Wow, is all I can say.
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March 24, 2012 4:38pm
Johnboy

Hate to tell you this Milky, in case you use it as a proof for your rule, but instead of being made redundant, as I thought I was about to be, it seems I am to be the new boss! 🙂
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March 24, 2012 4:38pm
hj

I see the Standard is OUT THERE for the Holy Wharfies but:

“Bus drivers in the tourist industry having seen Helen Clark’s globalised property market and subsequent over development are now seeing their share of the work decline while Chinese speaking (as in born in China) bus drivers take over. They work under poor conditions (eg share rooms) while relying on tips and commissions to prop up very measly wages.”

[lprent: You are already under a permanent ban, and this pile of wishfull bullshit* just puts you into autospam. Talk about stringing crap together with no understanding. ]
http://thestandard.org.nz/workers-worried-about-job-security/#comments

* Iprent lives at home with Mother.
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March 24, 2012 4:39pm
Johnboy

Jokers named Lynn always live at home with their Mums hj.

Tell us something we don’t know! 🙂
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March 24, 2012 4:41pm
mikenmild

Johnboy
You don’t have to be a psychopath to be a boss; but being a boss may mean it is more likely that you are a psychopath. A man with such, ah, empathy, towards sheep is unlikely to be a psychopath, in my opinion.
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March 24, 2012 4:44pm
Johnboy

You are a wonderful human being Milky and I love you almost as much as I love sheep! 🙂
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March 24, 2012 4:46pm
Don the Kiwi

Johnboy.
4.10 pm.

Starting to fantasize over Michele Boag now are you? 😉
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March 24, 2012 4:46pm

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