General Debate 12 February 2012

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side show bob

Ha Ha, Get up you lazy bums.
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February 12, 2012 8:04am
nasska

SSB

Not much action yet…probably all the townie soft cocks are still snuggled up in the fart sack.
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February 12, 2012 8:19am
Michael

Italian and a chef. No wonder he has a temper.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10784988
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February 12, 2012 8:28am
Keeping Stock

A grey, misty morning in Auckland; quelle surprise. But I heartily recommend Marvel Grill down at Wynyard Quarter; the eye fillet last night was cooked and seasoned to perfection for this diner.
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February 12, 2012 8:34am
Viking2

Motu cycle trail to open

Posted at 3:32pm Saturday 11th Feb, 2012

The Motu Trails cycle network is due to be officially opened in Opotiki in March.

The Motu Trail, running parallel to the Te Kowhai Track, consists of four cycle networks and is the fourth ride to be completed under The New Zealand Cycle Trail.

http://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/21745-motu-cycle-trail-to-open.html

No doubt PEB will be there when johnkey snips the ribbon. (just to keep the eb crims at bay of course.).

Will be a great trail through some rugged hills.
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February 12, 2012 8:47am
Viking2

Talk about one Law for all.
It seems lawyers don’t think that applies to them. This will be fun to watch. No wonder they didn’t like Simon Power. They are going to lose their sideline money making priviledge.

Lawyers heading for security laws stoush
ROB STOCK
Last updated 05:00 12/02/2012
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The Financial Markets Authority is heading for a showdown with lawyers running investment and loan companies operating as though securities laws do not apply.

There are around 160 solicitors nominee lending companies in New Zealand with around three-quarters of a billion dollars of mortgage loans, mostly to those who cannot get bank funding.

They are funded by investors who are paid up to 8 per cent interest, but most have not registered on the Financial Services Providers Register and are not covered by an approved disputes body.

Solicitors nominee companies have become popular with mortgage brokers seeking funding for borrowers since the collapse of the finance company sector.

The nominee companies appear to be relying on a legal opinion commissioned by the Law Society from Kensington Swan arguing that running an investment/lending operation has been done for so long by lawyers that it is done in the “ordinary course of business” and therefore covered by an exemption.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/6403655/Lawyers-heading-for-security-laws-stoush
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February 12, 2012 8:51am
Scott Chris

Judge orders neglected animals be returned to convicted abusive owner:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10784971

This Judge obviously doesn’t give a toss about animal welfare.
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February 12, 2012 8:55am
immigant

For all those that said that Sharia Law will not happen in NZ. Looks like someone wants cultural rights of minorities inshirined in NZ law. HA! I wonder what they mean?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6403952/Ethnic-rights-advice-stuns-communities
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February 12, 2012 9:06am
Viking2

All about the sexes. Funny as.

http://screencast.com/t/osWF8vsh
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February 12, 2012 9:08am
immigant

Best of all the Muslim community leader was the only one to say, between the lines that they wanted change.
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February 12, 2012 9:09am
Yvette

Ethnic rights advice stuns communities
– http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6403952/Ethnic-rights-advice-stuns-communities

Ethnic Affairs Minister Judith Collins has been told in a briefing paper that ethnic groups are pushing to have multicultural policy “entrenched” in any future New Zealand constitution.
…
Hodge said any constitution should offer equal opportunities and protection. “If we are setting up Sharia and special rules for certain people, does that mean a Muslim would not be prosecuted under the Crimes Act for a second, third or fourth wife?” Hodge said.
Collins dismissed the report.
“This briefing does not reflect government policy,” she said. “It is not a policy document.”
…
Speaking from Saudi Arabia last night, NZ Federation of Islamic Associations president Anwar Ghani told the Sunday Star-Times that any changes his body would push for would have to be “simple and workable”.
When asked if that could include Sharia, he responded: “No, we are not talking about that.”
Instead the federation backed transferring statutory holidays based on Christian festivals to dates of religious significance in their own culture.
…
And Indian Central Association president Paul Singh Bains said an ethnic constitution would be wrong. “It is sending the wrong message to policymakers. Once we are permanent residents here, or citizens, we are Kiwis.”
He dismissed any notion the Indian community wanted such changes. “There is no consensus for us to have a separate law,” he said, although he acknowledged some community beliefs did come from “ancient days”.
…
Auckland Chinese Community Centre chairman Arthur Loo was unaware of the briefing paper or if anyone within his community wanted legislation protecting their cultural rights.
Loo warned against any of the potential policy changes in the briefing paper.

The Ethnic Affairs Office said there was a push within some communities to have their cultural rights enshrined in law.
But it doesn’t seem to be from the Muslims, Indians or Chinese, so who exactly is ‘pushing’?
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February 12, 2012 9:13am
Viking2

Honey moon over. Time to do the right things John.

Prime Minister John Key wins hearts if not minds
ANDREA VANCE AND LOIS CAIRNS
Last updated 05:00 12/02/2012

WIN SOME, LOSE SOME: John Key’s overall popularity has taken a dip, thanks to the Teapot Tapes scandal, but he has still been judged New Zealand’s hottest politician.

He’s still our sexiest politician, but the teapot tapes and the furore over a radio stunt have driven John Key’s overall popularity to its lowest ebb.

A new UMR Research poll of 750 people shows the prime minister’s favourability rating dipped by 9 per cent between October and December of last year to its lowest level since January 2010.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6403954/Prime-Minister-John-Key-wins-hearts-if-not-minds
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February 12, 2012 9:15am
Viking2

Do you think that these two items on rates are related in any way?

Council indebtedness is far from evenly spread.

The council with the highest interest expense as a proportion of revenue is Tauranga at nearly 17 per cent. The city experienced rapid growth, but then faced an external shock, as it spelt out in its 2011/12 annual plan.

“Tauranga City’s growth and development is under stress from the impacts of the global financial crisis,” it told residents. “This has meant that much of the anticipated activity that underpins the development required for growth has slowed down.”

In a bid to reduce its debts it has been slashing capital expenditure, with $33m cut from the capital expenditure budget in 2011/12, but that still did not stop it having to lift its rates base by 10.4 per cent, equating to a per household increase of, on average, $194 including GST.

The combined public debts of the 12 councils (see table) is likely to hit $5.78 billion by the end of June, according to councils’ annual plans for 2011/12.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/6403692/Local-council-blowouts-hit-200m

Debate heats up on national rates rebate
ROB STOCK
Last updated 05:00 12/02/2012
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More than 100,000 households are paying too much in rates because they don’t realise they are eligible for rebates, according to official estimates.

Auckland Mayor Len Brown said people were missing out because the system was too complicated.

The Sunday Star-Times asked the Department of Internal Affairs, which administers the national rates rebate scheme, for estimates of how many deserving households had failed to apply for a rates rebate.

It released figures showing the 112,400 households that got rebates in the past financial year was about half the estimated number eligible.

But Local Government Minister Nick Smith did not believe anywhere near so many were missing out on the scheme, which can deliver rebates per household of up to $580.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6403951/Debate-heats-up-on-national-rates-rebate

Rocket science stuff.
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February 12, 2012 9:19am
Viking2

New Zealand needs to keep its dignity and prove it has its own sovereign justice system in the face of an extradition process to the United States, says the first of the Megaupload accused to make it out of jail.

He was “flabbergasted” by the raid and never expected the possibility of an American-led arrest.

Megaupload was established in the United States and had got good legal advice on how to run the business, he said.

“I couldn’t believe it. I still can’t believe it … it doesn’t matter who the opponent is, if it’s the FBI or the American president himself, I’m still very confident we have a very strong case.”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6403958/Dotcom-accused-van-der-Kolk-flabbergasted
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February 12, 2012 9:22am
Pete George

The Muslim community leader also said this (only when asked):

When asked if that could include Sharia, he responded: “No, we are not talking about that.”

There may be some common elements in Sharia and New Zealand law but we can only have one legal system (which is secular) so talk of instituting a separate religious based law sounds like crying wolf – in a country without wolves.
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February 12, 2012 9:23am
side show bob

Shit the SST is getting desperate. Lead story is, are spoon fed babies better then babies helping themselves with their fingers as far as obesity goes. I find it amazing that there are actually people paid to study this sort of crap, for fucks sake, it’s a fucking wonder the human race has survived for so long. what did we do before we had such earth shaking information?

Meanwhile great day at the Urenui rodeo yesterday, but it would probably not be Scott Chris’s cup of tea
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February 12, 2012 9:26am
Viking2

“We’re living on charity here,” said security specialist Wayne Tempero last week.

A few people still live on site but they have no reason to stay, other than not having found new homes yet.

Many of those who lived there lost items of value when police swooped and took everything that looked worth seizing.

Three weeks on, they still don’t know how to get their belongings back. One staff member says he was told to “talk to the FBI”.

The 42 locals who worked there effectively became unemployed on January 20, the day of the raid. Their wages are unpaid as the money is in bank accounts seized on behalf of the US.

Many were forced to seek emergency benefits at Work and Income.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10784959
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February 12, 2012 9:32am
Other_Andy

@immigant

“Speaking from Saudi Arabia last night, NZ Federation of Islamic Associations president Anwar Ghani told the Sunday Star-Times that any changes his body would push for would have to be “simple and workable”. ”

Suadi Arabia is where muslims from all over the world are getting their money and directions from. Saudi petro dollars are funding Saudi cultural colonialism. They are funding schools, universities (Buying influence), mosques, muslim advocacy groups, political groups and parties all over the world . The Saudis are buying up western media (Google Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal) and are trying (With success) to push their Wahhabi Islam.
It is all part of Dawah.
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February 12, 2012 9:44am
Longknives

Surely the fault of Colonial ‘oppression’?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10784968

And why would Mana party staff be so desperate to retrieve something from the crashed car? All seems a bit odd to me…
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February 12, 2012 9:45am
Other_Andy

@Pete George

“There may be some common elements in Sharia and New Zealand law but we can only have one legal system (which is secular) so talk of instituting a separate religious based law sounds like crying wolf – in a country without wolves.”

We might have only one legal system but that doen’t mean we treat everybody the same under that system.

You keep on telling us that we shouldn’t cry wolf and seem to think that, somehow, New Zealand is different from every other country in the world. Why is that?
Why do you think that the demand to have sharia laws incorporated in law won’t happen in New Zealand while it is happening in Europe and Australia?
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February 12, 2012 9:56am
big bruv

Like V2 I welcome Key’s drop in the polls.

One can only hope that he see’s this drop in support as the reason to start hitting out at DPB slappers and time to stop interest free student loans and the WFF rort.

Imagine how much the Nat’s could do if they decided to do what is right, start mining, reform welfare, end the treaty gravy train.
Key could go down as a legend if he decides to do the right thing.
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February 12, 2012 10:00am
Michael

I think the push is for changes to reflect different cultural practices – for instance, New Zealanders traditionally celebrate Christmas and New Yeat as the biggest holiday of the year, hence the 4 public holidays in two weeks. But those from other cultures may wish to trade one or two of those holidays with their employer for another holiday of cultural significance – Lunar New Year or last day of Ramadam. Another example is Othodox Christians who have come from countries that have not adopted the Gregorian Calender so celebrate Easter at differing times – although sometimes it’s the same time, other times it can be up to a month different.

I’m happy for law to be updated to reflect employment flexibility that helps with that type of cultural difference – as I’m sure many employers are as well.

It also reflects the stupidity of the current Shop Trading laws – by now there will be fewer Christians than all other denominations (if you include non-religious) but they have a veto over commerce on three days a year. Why should a Bhuddist be forced to close on Good Friday?
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February 12, 2012 10:04am
Put it away

“A Mana Party worker is in hospital with brain damage…”
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February 12, 2012 10:05am
reid

I find it amazing that there are actually people paid to study this sort of crap, for fucks sake, it’s a fucking wonder the human race has survived for so long. what did we do before we had such earth shaking information?

What I like about it is when they interview the “scientists” it’s quite obvious they really do think their work has yielded some flabbergasting and hitherto unknown insight into the human condition and they’re quite serious about it.

To me it’s a bit like those intermediate school science fairs where the spotty little kid has a moth-eaten ugly stupid toy volcano and everyone wishes his father had really helped him for it would have made the poor bastard look a little less stupid but the boy himself is beeming proudly away, eager to explain to the passers by everything about his dumb creation. Except it’s real and these particular spotty little kids work in real universities where we pay them heaps to do shit like this.

It’s a SNAFU cluster of biblical proportions on every level and everyone’s standing around and taking it real serious. Well the SST is, anyway. I reckon one of the lefty MP’s probably a Gween may even raise it in Question Time as their contribution to something or other. I hope so. I need a laugh out of this for what else am I or for that mater we, going to get for the hundreds of thou if not millions we collectively paid to get these “scientists” educated and resourced so they could after years of useless eating of our resources, eventually research, analyse and publish this crap?
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February 12, 2012 10:32am
Griff

The strength of national is actually a weakness for the right
how can one party represent all views
only by not truly representing the views of all. liberal and Conservative positions are compromised into some wishy washy middle ground. Act has been taken over by the conservatives and is only a puppet of national
On the left you have partys to represent all conservative labor, far left mana, environment driven greens Far more representative of the divergent opinions of voters.
This weakness could cause national to fail in the next election.
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February 12, 2012 10:37am
Manolo

Romney forges ahead: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/11/romney-wins-washington-timescpac-straw-poll/
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February 12, 2012 10:38am
Viking2

Scientists finally discover the true cause of “global warming”. It’s the sun, stupid. More specifically – as the Danish physicist Henrik Svensmark has long postulated – it’s the result of cosmic rays which act as a seed for cloud formation.

The research, published with little fanfare this week in the prestigious journal Nature, comes from über-prestigious CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, one of the world’s largest centres for scientific research involving 60 countries and 8,000 scientists at more than 600 universities and national laboratories. CERN is the organization that invented the World Wide Web, that built the multi-billion dollar Large Hadron Collider, and that has now built a pristinely clean stainless steel chamber that precisely recreated the Earth’s atmosphere.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100102296/sun-causes-climate-change-shock/

ow that should stuff up GD for the day. Luc,Scott & frog will all be along shortly when they get their lazy arses out of bed.
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February 12, 2012 10:39am
Manolo

A brainy kid with a bright future. Good on him.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/6404151/Welly-whiz-kid-sees-hi-tech-future-for-education
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February 12, 2012 10:40am
Viking2

Manolo (6,096) Says:
February 12th, 2012 at 10:40 am

A brainy kid with a bright future. Good on him.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/6404151/Welly-whiz-kid-sees-hi-tech-future-for-education

Not if he goes of to UNI. They will indoctrinate him as to why you shouldn’t be and entreprenure.
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February 12, 2012 11:01am
bereal

Other_Andy @ 9.56

How many times does Pete have to tell you ?

This would never ever happen in NZ because we ’embrace’ and ‘celebrate’ Muslims here more than
any other country. We love them to bits. We love them soooo effing much.
i think i might have a little party this afternoon, just to ‘celebrate’ them a bit more.

Of course, the fact that the head scherang of Islamic studies at Auckland uni last year called for an
Islamic banking system to be set up here has nothing to do with it.
(i never bothered to enquire why they need a dept of Islamic studies, wonder if there is a dept
of Buddist studies, or Shinto studies, or Falungong studies)
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February 12, 2012 11:05am
Other_Andy

@Viking2

“It’s the sun, stupid.”

You mean that shiny thing in the sky, 330,000 heavier than Earth, which accounts for about 99.86% of the total mass of the Solar System?
That 5505 °C star that that generates its energy by nuclear fusion and bombards Earth with a huge stream of radiation which consists of heat, particles, and high-energy X-rays and UV radiation?
You mean the Sun whose energy supports almost all life on Earth by photosynthesis and drives the Earth’s seasons, changing ocean currents, quasiperiodic climate patterns, cloud formation and weather?

Nah.
We humans control the weather and the climate!
It’s the 0.28% of greenhouse gasses and especially the 0.117% of CO2 we add to the Earth’s atmosphere.
You heretic, denier, flat Earther.
Sheep, blah, blah, blah……
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February 12, 2012 11:14am
Griff

Other andy
that is baaa baaa baaaa

V2 we have already had the cloud thing August 27th, 2011 is not the latest its 6months ago
fatnuts has linked to it
many times

James Delingpole
365 Ways to Drive a Liberal Crazy
Are Liberals Annoying the Heck Out of You?
Well now you can fight back—every single day—with James Delingpole’s handy new guide of jokes, facts, arguments, and even outrageous rumors to spread that will have your liberal acquaintances recoiling in horror—and maybe even just possibly reconsidering their opinions. Need something to brighten your day and darken a liberal’s? Look no further. This is the book for you!
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February 12, 2012 11:22am
Griff

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/waitangi-day/news/article.cfm?c_id=1500878&objectid=10784784
Iwi cautious on joining water claim

Tuhoe wasn’t at the meeting. However, tribal leader Tamati Kruger said the iwi remembered previous dealings with Ms Hall when she was a prominent player in the massive claim around the Kaingaroa forest. It was not settled under Ms Hall’s watch.
That experience led the tribe to very carefully consider the “characters” involved in claims, he said.
“We have a list of people that we would not like to be party with.” Ms Hall was on that list and was one reason why it would not support the water claim, Mr Kruger said.

Many iwi leaders have said they can’t support the claim
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February 12, 2012 11:29am
Paulus

Tauranga Council is the most wasteful of all Councils. So what’s new.
Simply it has far too many staff (420) plus consultants trying to satisfy every minority group, to get re-elected.
The intended rates rise is 10% per annum for the next 4 years, but simply they will not stop spending the ratepayer’s money, and making expensive stuff ups.
To blame it on the International Financial Crisis is a poor excuse, and frankly bullshit.
The Council are incompetent. One incompetent CEO leaves for a top job with Len Brown, and other joins the gravy train, and will perpetuate the level of incompetence –
He should be told to cut operating expenses by 10% now, and that means very expensive staff with many at very expensive senior levels.
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February 12, 2012 11:40am
Scott Chris

Other Andy and Viking

Temperature verses Solar Activity graph since 1880:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/pics/Solar_vs_Temp_basic.gif

Notice a divergence? Wonder what’s causing that?
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February 12, 2012 12:15pm
Manolo

Smile and wave’s popular for doing what? http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbpol/2070038974-Key-s-popularity-takes-a-dip
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February 12, 2012 12:44pm
RightNow

scotty, except for possibly the deep oceans (below 700m) ‘global warming’ has flat-lined. So how do the deep oceans gain heat?

It’s the sun stupid.
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February 12, 2012 12:50pm
Griff

Lobbyist spend up to influence government
Energy And Natural Resource Interests Dumped Almost $1 Billion On Washington In Two Years

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/chart-energy-and-natural-resource-interests-dumped-almost-1-billion-on-washington-in-two-years-2012-1#ixzz1m7Yj8GHA
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February 12, 2012 1:01pm
Other_Andy

@SC

Scepticalscience is about the last website you should go to get correct information.
The graph is a crock.
I am not even going to waste my time explaining why Mr John Cook decided to display an 11 year cycle and not a longer time period.
You can figure that out yourself (??).

http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/images/Zurich_Color_Small.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Temp-sunspot-co2.svg

Have a nice day.
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February 12, 2012 1:20pm
Scott Chris

“It’s the sun stupid” in that context implies variations in solar radiation being solely responsible for climate change, stupid.

The fact that the ocean has continued to warm despite declining solar activity shows that this is plainly wrong.

It’s really that simple.
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February 12, 2012 1:31pm
Scott Chris

Other Andy

1) Explain why the ocean has continued to heat up in spite of the declining solar activity?

2) The first graph you supplied tells me nothing because the temperature record is not superimposed. The second one, if you read it properly just reinforces my argument.

What point are you trying to make?
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February 12, 2012 1:39pm
Put it away

Occupy loon is asked to explain what her own sign means…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldL92fzVBgY&feature=player_embedded
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February 12, 2012 1:44pm
wat dabney

Scott,

You still remain in complete denial about the fact that the continued accelerating surface temperature warming promised by the alarmists never happened.

That prediction was front and central to the alarmist claim. The fact that it failed so spectacularly means they don’t understand the way the climate works. They are charlatans who have been exposed.

You are like a loyal dupe in one of those apocalyptic cults that climbed to the top of a local hillside on a given date to witness the end of the World and, when nothing happened, rush to assure us that your new prediction is sound.

Time to face facts, mate.
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February 12, 2012 1:46pm
RightNow

scotty, can you explain how GHG forcing heats the deep oceans?
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February 12, 2012 1:55pm
Scott Chris

wat, it’ll come. The acknowledged failure of climate scientists is not to have spelled out the non-linear short term rise in temperature. Just wait for the next El Nino.

RightNow, ocean currents are forever up welling and down welling and cross welling governed mainly by tidal and wind patterns. You may want to argue with this based on the fact that warm water is less dense so it should “float” but empirical measurements (of the gulf stream for instance) show that this isn’t the case.

So in short, the water gets mixed, as does the heat.
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February 12, 2012 2:11pm
Other_Andy

“Explain why the ocean has continued to heat up in spite of the declining solar activity?”

It is not. All measurements show that the overall trend of ocean temperatures since 2002-2005 is down.

Global Mean – Land and Ocean Temperature
http://www.ucar.edu/news/features/climatechange/images/global-jan-dec-error-bar-pg.gif
(Note: this graph is from before the 2011 revision)

Have a look at http://data.nodc.noaa.gov/woa/PUBLICATIONS/grlheat08.pdf
On page 15 the graphs all show a rise untill 2005 and then they are either plateauing or going down…
And before you start, the above publication has been revised in 2011.
The National Oceanographic Data Center (NODC) recently updated its 4th quarter and annual 2009 Ocean Heat Content (OHC) data. With the corrections, instead of rising ocean temperatures, the trend is now down since 2002.
(Can you now guess why Cook used a 11 year cycle?)
(The quarterly data for the world oceans is available through the NODC in spreadsheet (.csv ) form)
Cook might have (conveniently) overlooked the revision.
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February 12, 2012 2:17pm
Griff

Ha HA HA
pg 15 shows a rise the highest data point is the last
opps some one did not read it just linked from denial website
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February 12, 2012 2:33pm
bc

Remember when general debate used to get hijacked every day by the religious/athesists fanatics?
Now we have a new religion in general debate – climate change.
On one side we have the believers and on the other side the non-believers. Now let the discussion go on and on and on without either side shifting one iota, while the rest of us desperately try to change the topic!
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February 12, 2012 2:33pm
bc

Here’s my attempt t change the topic – Whitney Houston is dead (at 48).

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=10785074
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February 12, 2012 2:35pm
bc

Why those who believe that we don’t need the ERA because with every employment dispute it is ’employer good, employee bad’ are totally wrong.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/employment/news/article.cfm?c_id=11&objectid=10784973
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February 12, 2012 2:51pm
Other_Andy

@Griff

“pg 15 shows a rise the highest data point is the last opps some one did not read it just linked from denial website”

My mistake. I thought I was dealing with someone who could read and interpret a graph.
I will try to show only the simple pictures next time so it won’t confuse you.

The time series only deals with the period from 1955-2008.
The linear trend is shown in each panel for 1969-2007. 1969 being the lowest point in th graph….
Everybody knows ocean temperatures have been rising so that is no surprise.
However, according to the AGW theory they should still be rising. But data from 2002 onwards it shows they are not, they are declining.
Capice?
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February 12, 2012 2:56pm
wat dabney

Scott,

“wat, it’ll come.”

My point exactly.

“The acknowledged failure of climate scientists is not to have spelled out the non-linear short term rise in temperature.”

But how can this be? The Hockeystick was held up as absolute proof that there is negligible natural climate variation and that warming up to that time must therefore have been due to anthropogenic CO2. Sceptics who pointed out the fatal flaws and corruption in that infamous chart and who insisted that there is very significant natural variation were condemned and dismissed as idiots and tools of ‘Big Oil’ etc.

Yet the sceptics were proved correct and the alarmists were exposed. Your current position of invoking natural climate variation to explain away your failed predictions is an admission of such.

Yet for some reason the vilification of the (vindicated) sceptics continues. I guess when you’re not big enough to admit you were wrong it’s all you’ve got left to cling to. So we won’t be too hard on Griff.

And you are in the ridiculous position of claiming that any warming is due to human CO2 whilst any flattening or cooling is natural variation. Do you realise how completely laughable that is?
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February 12, 2012 3:01pm
reid

Yet for some reason the vilification of the (vindicated) sceptics continues.

Because to alarmists it’s not a science, it’s a religion, requiring religious fervour and passion lest the whole Earth fall into the abyss, by tomorrow evening about five past six.

It’s fucking mental isn’t it but that’s precisely what alarmists practice and precisely what they believe. So go figure. Perhaps alarmists just got sick of not having a God so they decided the IPCC and UN looked pretty good, to them, and away they went. That’s the only thing that explains what we see around us.
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February 12, 2012 3:12pm
Lance

Either side speaking in absolutes around climate change is laughable. It’s at good debate to have but do realize the earth is the equivalent of being in a fine balance between a blow torch and a CO2 fire extinguisher blast with the zone the earth inhabits is the tiny area where the temperature is tolerable between those violent extremes.
This is why I speak caution on how even a small change from any influence can have a considerable effect. However the earth has always undergone solar and orbital cycles that also clearly effect climate.
But it is also madness to give money to foreigners not to pollute or to ‘capture carbon’.
Maybe this is an issue where we simply do not know the answer to as the permutations are beyond our abilities to analyze so the participants think that whomever so shouts the loudest is correct?
In which case the only answer would be for each individual to take whatever measures they think fit based on some facts agreed by most sane participants from both sides.
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February 12, 2012 3:24pm
bereal

bc @ 2.35
you have no chance of changing the subject here.
realise you are dealing with zealots.

i would join the climate debate but as some have pointed out i’m already up my own arse far enough.
i can’t afford to go up any more. Then i’d be as far up as these zealots are up theirs.

Poor Whitney, so much talent ruined by drugs.

How about this for a subject.

Why would Dr. Zain Ali (yep, thats his real name) head of Islamic studies at Akl. Uni call for a Sharia
banking system to be established in New Zealand.

i would have thought he was there to study Islam, not to be the cheer leader to promote Sharia in this country.
This dangerous pxxxx needs to be watched.
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February 12, 2012 3:45pm
reid

I don’t know what a Sharia Banking System is bereal but do know Muslims have a strong tradition of alms giving much stronger than we in the western religions apart from a few notable exceptions but that’s a fact.

Another fact I suspect is that a Sharia Bank would have nothing whatsoever to do with anything other than banking but you seem to hallucinate its a harbinger, a wedge-politics thing just waiting to drape its evil cloak over everything we hold dear and holy.

Is that what you’re saying, essentially?

Whitney, Demi, LiLo, long list. I’d hate to be one of them. Poor people. Tortured souls. Literally.
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February 12, 2012 4:00pm
nasska

bc

…”Here’s my attempt t change the topic”……

I admire your spirit but I feel that it is a concept yet to find a time slot. Maybe I can offer some comfort by suggesting that climate science is slightly less mind numbing than the American GOP nomination which seems to be the only other regular subject on offer.
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February 12, 2012 4:01pm
nasska

reid

From what little I have read on “Sharia Banking” it is a smoke & mirrors con to hide the fact that interest is being charged on money loaned…..apparently usury was prohibited by the merciful “Prophet”. Given the record of the Australian banks who fleece individuals & businesses in NZ a Muslim lender may attract a few infidels as well.

In the traditions of the proscriptive religious nutjobs who permeate every part of Muslim society doing business with anything or anyone that is considered “anti Islam” is verbotten too.

Probably not the lender of choice if you are opening a pub or a branch of the Women’s Refuge.
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February 12, 2012 4:21pm
reid

What about talking about how ritual satanic abuse is the reason why Whitney, Demi and Lilo and many many others including Micheal Jackson et al, keep having these episodes?

Or is that going to a bit too far off topic for GD these days?

apparently usury was prohibited by the merciful “Prophet”

It was also prohibited by Jewish Law nasska – recall the seven year complete debt forgiveness and no interest ever rules from the Old Testament – but for some reason this doesn’t work for modern Jewish banking or even non-Jewish banking so this doesn’t happen anymore but you’d think if anyone would do it, it would be the Jews, wouldn’t you.
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February 12, 2012 4:22pm
bc

Thanks guys, I can but try 🙂

I have no idea what a Sharia banking system is either. Presumably the “right” would be ok with it happening since if there is a demand for it then it should be supplied?? You know, free market economics and all that.

Re: Whitney Houston. I didn’t really like her music that much (in the ’80s i was into indie bands like The Smiths) but I appreciate that she had an awesome singing voice (before the drugs took over her life).
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February 12, 2012 4:25pm
reid

I mean, since the Jews apparently fear G-d and everything…
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February 12, 2012 4:25pm
Put it away

Islamic banking is hilarious. The aim is to charge interest without calling it interest, because interest is forbidden. So for an Islamic mortgage, rather than lending you money to buy a house, the bank technically buys the house and then immediately sells it to you for a higher amount, and allows you to pay in installments, with the house as security in case you fail to make your installments. So the end result is exactly the same – bank makes money, you lose house if you don’t pay them back, but you totally sneaked it under Allah’s radar. Allah’s a bit of a gullible chap, apparently.
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February 12, 2012 4:37pm
nasska

reid

Jewish (or Islamic) banking practises are well outside my field of expertise. I would be inclined to agree with you that the Jewish people seem to have worked out a compromise with their faith over usury & banking.

As an aside I read a bit of trivia recently which indicated that ‘goldsmiths’ who manufactured coinage were the inventors of paper money. Rather than the customer carrying around barrowloads of coins the smiths issued notes promising to pay a specified amount of gold on demand. These notes circulated in lieu of cash.

Certainly some of these Jewish artisans prospered & moved to the USA to escape persecution…I dare say their descendents are very influential today.

Pia

It is amazing how accommodating the clergy of any religion can get when the dollars & dinahs start rattling.
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February 12, 2012 4:42pm
Put it away

nasska – I just love the idea that someone can believe their supreme being is omnisient, omnipotent, omnipresent and punishes all transgressions of his infinitely perfect laws, and at the same time believe they can flim-flam that god with an utterly trivial scam to break his laws and have no chance of getting caught. The mind of the believer is a strange, strange place.
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February 12, 2012 4:48pm
reid

Certainly some of these Jewish artisans prospered & moved to the USA to escape persecution…I dare say their descendents are very influential today.

They’re descended from the money changers Jesus kicked out of the temple nasska. You see, you had to pay a sacrifice at the alter and it had to be a silver sheckel and the money changers rorted the poor who had an extremely expensive time simply worshipping YHWH. Which is why he lost his temper for the only time. There’s some interesting research on the possibility these money changers worked behind the scenes to get Him executed for His temerity.

But the money masters is a great, if long (3+ hours) video on the history. Perhaps on a winter weekend.

nasska – I just love the idea that someone can believe their supreme being is omnisient, omnipotent, omnipresent and punishes all transgressions of his infinitely perfect laws, and at the same time believe they can flim-flam that god with an utterly trivial scam to break his laws and have no chance of getting caught. The mind of the believer is a strange, strange place.

PIA if you think this is what any believer believes you’re an extraordinarily profound idiot of the most monumental proportion. I’m sorry, you just are. Next time, try to gain an accurate understanding of a concept before you attempt to critique it.
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February 12, 2012 4:51pm
nasska

Pia

It’s got me whacked too. If you are going to ignore one part of the deal with the Big Bloke Upstairs you might as well scrub the lot & make Hell worthwhile.

reid

That’s the way I remembered it too. When Jesus got a bit shitty & started throwing money changers’ tables around in the temple He really interrupted a nice little earner. Bankers & their ilk have no sense of humour…..now or a couple of thousand of years ago.
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February 12, 2012 4:59pm
reid

PIA apologies for the portion of my 4:51 directed at you. I completely misread your post and on actually reading it, I agree. Sorry.
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February 12, 2012 5:07pm
bereal

to my mind the major point to take from Dr Ali calling for a Sharia banking system is simple.

Immigrants can either hold the view that when you move to a new country/society it is implicit that you agree to
adopt the existing values and views of your host country, and in New Zealand, sure, we say, retain
as much of your own old culture as you want to.
It will only enrich all of us. (as it has done with all our other immigrants)

OR ,
as Muslims have proved in every country anywhere they have moved to, eventually they will
work to change the host to their way.
That is their religion, that is central to their belief.

and guess what, at some stage they even will blow you up to effect the change they want.

And, some of them will be zealots who will be prepared to blow themselves up in the process to effect
the change their religion desires. (as history has now shown, these zealots are likely to be 2nd or 3rd
generation immigrants)

These are now self evident truths. Worldwide.

It doesn’t matter how much we “embrace” and “celebrate” Muslims, in the long run the New Zealand
experience will be no different from the rest of the world.

i’d love to hear from anyone where i have got that wrong.
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February 12, 2012 5:17pm
Put it away

reid, I read your first reply before your second, and scratched my head for a second and then realised you’d probably mistaken it for an attack on xtianity, but once you realised I was taking the piss out of the other team, suddenly exactly the same statement that outraged you with it’s sheer wrongness was now true and perfectly acceptable to you.
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February 12, 2012 5:25pm
nasska

bereal

I’ve brought this same subject up a few times but I don’t think it has had much effect. Probably the odd Muslim here & there is not going to make much difference & it is fair to say that when their numbers are small they’ll assimilate into NZ society. When the numbers creep up (5% seems about the trigger point going by overseas experiences) they cluster together & their batshit mad religion regains No.1 position in their lives.

Once that happens the demand for Sharia law & all the barbarism that entails starts. As you have stated before it has happened everywhere else in the world that encourages Muslim immigration & it will happen here too.

I’m unsure why our leaders are blind to what is coming. Perhaps they want the distraction of a few bombings or maybe they are merely incompetent.

Maybe they just hate us.
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February 12, 2012 5:36pm
reid

Yes isn’t it ironic PIA.
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February 12, 2012 5:41pm
fatnuts

For Scott, knowing how you get your opinion from ridiculously named websites, and seeing your argument dieing an ugly death, here’s some free help:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread804263/pg1

Could global warming lead to alien intervention? Scientists say yes..

“Perhaps ETI believe that rapid expansion is threatening on a galactic scale. Rapidly (maximally) expansive civilizations may have a tendency to destroy other civilizations in the process, just as humanity has already destroyed many species on Earth. ETI that place intrinsic value on civilizations may ideally wish that our civilization changes its ways, so we can survive along with all the other civilizations. But if ETI doubt that our course can be changed, then they may seek to preemptively destroy our civilization in order to protect other civilizations from us. A preemptive strike would be particularly likely in the early phases of our expansion because a civilization may become increasingly difficult to destroy as it continues to expand. Humanity may just now be entering the period in which its rapid civilizational expansion could be detected by an ETI because our expansion is changing the composition of Earth’s atmosphere (e.g. via greenhouse gas emissions), which therefore changes the spectral signature of Earth. While it is difficult to estimate the likelihood of this scenario, it should at a minimum give us pause as we evaluate our expansive tendencies.”
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February 12, 2012 5:43pm
bereal

And guess what.
At the end of the day one side will win.

Make no mistake, there are two sides in a fight to the death, one of them is Muslims.

We can either be pragmatists who look at our world and accept the evidence that stares
us in the face and take some action as a result of what we see before our very eyes,
OR,
we can hope that if we show them enough love and embrace them and celebrate them then they will
respect that and join with us and all will be beautifull.

New Zealand will be unique and able to show the world.

Grow up.
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February 12, 2012 5:49pm
bereal

What on earth can we do here in New Zealand ?

How about we stop importing Muslims.

What have we got to lose by that ?
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February 12, 2012 6:01pm
bereal

And by the way naaska @ 5.36

History proves that Muslims will never assimilate into western free society.

Not even one. Thats the whole point. Their religion wont allow them to.

The only way they may assimilate is to give up their religion.

Thats how black and white and simple it really is.
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February 12, 2012 6:06pm
fatnuts

Bereal, the increase of home grown terrorism in the UK should not go unnoticed by policy makers. One would hope that those who fit the profile are being activily denied entry.
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February 12, 2012 6:08pm
reid

Hey guess what? I’ve been picking an impending nuclear exchange is going to be the worst of our problems. Well it’s not.

Apparently those blasted Egyptians and Mayans designed things which have other time, generated a massive photon cloud around our entire planetary system thereby placing Earth under stress resulting in the strange sounds people have been reporting worldwide.

The root cause is thought to be the Earth’s core, which monitoring stations have detected significant shifts in as recently as November last year.

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/1733/112/Worlds_Pyramids_Beaming_Energy_To_Mysterious_Space_Cloud.html

and

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/663/449/Claim:_NASA_Hiding_Approaching_Doomsday_Space_Event.html

I just thought it was better than talking about AGW.
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February 12, 2012 6:13pm
Dave Stringer

Sharia banking is fun.
You make a deposit – they pay you no interest
You take a loan – they charge you no interest buy do charge you a fee for every transaction

thereby paying their staff and making their owners (who charge a fee for attending meetings) mega-rich.

easy
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February 12, 2012 6:18pm
RightNow

reid, it’s just google’s new cloud service.
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February 12, 2012 6:25pm
reid

How business and politics mix as in, it happens all the time, but is just rarely if ever discussed in the media:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2099639/The-Russian-oligarch-Old-Etonian-billionaire-deeply-disturbing-questions-Lord-Mandelsons-integrity.html

I suppose if you own both AP and Reuters plus have personal relationships with every single major media company owner in the world, all of that comes in handy, normally.
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February 12, 2012 6:28pm
nasska

reid

From your link:

…..”At the same time, people around the world began hearing and recording frightening sounds—noises that seem as if the Earth itself is moaning and wailing.”……

I’ve been getting the same signals but I’ve put it down to the ‘warmists’ who congregate on this forum.

Mind you we could all be wrong & the sound effects could be coming from SWMBO giving Luc his jollies in the dungeon in his basement.
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February 12, 2012 6:28pm
Komata

On another topic altogether, yet with strange similarities in respect of territory etc to the matter of Islam and occupation by stealth:

According to the 1800 RNZ-National news a Mana party activist who is now heading (evidently voluntarily it appears), with a Norwegian ‘nutter’ to the Antarctic to supposedly pay homage to a dead mate drowned when the Norwegian’s support- overturned will also be placing a Maori Sovereignty flag on the continent to claim it for Maori!!

Aside from evidently having no knowledge of the very long-standing International Agreements relating to the continent, which operate under UN auspices, it also appears that this individual has no problem with undertaking the very same colonial ‘occupation’ that he and his mates rail against – especially as they never got that far south before Whitey arrived so have no legal claim anyway. He also seems to have no problem with presenting himself and his party to the world as a laughing stock. It does not of course, do the image of ‘Maori’ as an intelligent race, particularly much good. Somehow I can’t see the UN accepting the ‘ownership’ claim, yet they are just daft enough to actually give it serious consideration.

Any thoughts?
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February 12, 2012 6:28pm
fatnuts

Oh yeah Reid, a lot of wierd shit about the pyramids. Just finished Chariots of the Gods (link below). But how would photons form a cloud? By definition they move at the speed of light. The whole AWG thing though screams of the ego centricity of humans, because everything has to be about US. Space is a big, violent place, and dozens of things we know about could wipe us out overnight, CME, gamma ray burst, comet strike etc. Our power and comm infrastructure are so fragile we shold expect them to be wiped put at some point. That alone could end much of civilisation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_of_the_Gods%3F
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February 12, 2012 6:54pm
Manolo

..will also be placing a Maori Sovereignty flag on the continent to claim it for Maori!!

At this pace the savage Stone Age tribes will quickly claim England and continental Europe.
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February 12, 2012 6:56pm
Manolo

Smile-and-wave at his worst: making promises to spend taxpayer’s money and pandering to special interests:
http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8418109/gay-pride-parade-may-return-key
The spineless PM knows no shame.
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February 12, 2012 7:01pm
Other_Andy

@Manolo

Is it funded by the taxpayer?
If so, could heterosexuals apply for a taxpayer funded sex party?
Happy hetero Parade?
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February 12, 2012 7:08pm
wat dabney

Scott,

“Explain why the ocean has continued to heat up in spite of the declining solar activity?”

As you well know there is good evidence that the reverse is true and that ocean temperatures are declining. But for the sake of argument let’s assume your assertion is correct and that ocean temperatures are warming. How do you explain it, because it is most certainly not evidence for AGW.

The AGW theory specifically and exclusively concerns the effect of CO2 as a greenhouse gas. This means that it necessarily only applies directly to atmospheric temperature, since that’s specifically where the alleged mechanism works.
What you most certainly can’t do is claim that this specific and limited atmospheric theory applies directly to other phenomena like ocean temperature. It literally makes no sense.

As a secondary effect, yes, you could say that a warming atmosphere adds heat to the oceans. But of course that’s not what you’re saying, because you admit there has been no recent atmospheric warming. So, bizarrely, you are trying to take a theory which deals with how an anthropogenic greenhouse gas might modulate atmospheric temperature and casually claim (without explaining how) that it applies directly to ocean temperatures.I mean, WTF?

It has been repeatedly shown that you don’t understand the first thing about the AGW theory. Perhaps you should actually go away and find out something about it before posting anything more?
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February 12, 2012 7:11pm
side show bob

Fatnuts, worst thing, warm piss.
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February 12, 2012 7:31pm
fatnuts

Or running out of single malt.
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February 12, 2012 7:41pm
bereal

Hey fatnuts 6.08
You have missed the point entirley, totally, fuken hopelessly, like a loon, like a drong.

“One would hope that those who fit the profile are being activly denied entry.” Jesus o’dear.
i,ll try again. One last time, just for you.
You seem to be otherwise a reasonable person.

i should put this in capitals to help you. But. You say…..

They should be denied entry………….

Suck this up, take it to the bank, colour it in….what else can i say…..

Those that fit the profile are Muslims. It’s the 2nd and third generation that blow u and your family up.
They are NOT denied entry.

How can i spell it out in simpler terms,
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February 12, 2012 7:54pm
nasska

The plane was about to crash – the pilot called out, “Anyone on this plane believe in the power of prayer?”
A vicar’s hand went straight up.
“Thank fuck for that!” said the pilot. “We’re one parachute short.”
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February 12, 2012 7:57pm
fatnuts

I’ve lived and worked in several islamic countries. To paint them all as the same is ridiculous.

We do a great deal of trade with the Middle East – are you suggesting we sever that? On the basis that ‘we don’t deal with Muslims’?

Like Joyce says “can’t” has a price.
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February 12, 2012 7:59pm
Johnboy

If the Murri claim Antarctica and get the claim upheld by the UN can we deport them all there?

Just asking! 🙂
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February 12, 2012 8:05pm
bereal

Another interesting point.

It will be long after the time when the division between Muslims and the rest is resolved
that the climate change drongos will still arguing the toss.

These fuckwits will still be arguing about CO2 and glaciers and coal and the sun
and if man caused it and it will still not change a fuken thing.

Point is ,if they don’t wake up, all those left arguing the toss will be Muslims.
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February 12, 2012 8:06pm
bereal

Hey fatnuts
after your statement @ 7.59
all i can say, with the greatest of respect is,
‘you fucking idiot.’
The end.
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February 12, 2012 8:12pm
fatnuts

Thanks bereal. I think that sums it up nicely.
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February 12, 2012 8:17pm
bereal

Glad you got it at last.
shit, it was hard work but.
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February 12, 2012 8:19pm
fatnuts

What happened to ‘the end’?
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February 12, 2012 8:22pm
nasska

A man walks up to the counter and asks for a plate of potatoes.

The woman says,”oh,you must be from Ireland.”

The man is furious,”What sort of stereotypical remark is that?.If I walked in here and asked for a haggis,would you assume I was Scottish?”

“Well no,”says the woman.

“And if I walked in here and asked for some chow mein,would you think I was Chinese?”asks the man.

“No,I suppose not,”Replies the woman.

“So why do you automatically assume I’m Irish when all I want is a plate of potatoes,”asks the man.

“Because”, the woman replies,”this is a Hairdressers!”
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February 12, 2012 8:22pm
bereal

fatnuts

Now you see what i meant by,
‘you fuken idiot’

Good luck to your family.
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February 12, 2012 8:27pm

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