General Debate 8 January 2012

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Yvette

One for Penny Bright –
• big corporate greed
• Occupation Auckland “1% over the 99” stuff
• possible photogenically compatible coverage
• kiwiblog antagonism

‘Greedy wharfies’ tale hides ambitions for port

Ports of Auckland chief executive Tony Gibson wants us to believe he can’t make the port work because he’s obstructed by greedy wharfies who work 26 hours a week – even though he pays them $91,000 a year. …
But
… a wharfie on 40 hours a week gets $56,000. The hourly rate is $27. With overtime, some can earn up to $71,000. The union says that to earn $91,000, a worker would have to work additional overtime equal to 32 weeks fulltime in a year. …

But I got suspicious when Christine Fletcher, the leader of the right wing on the Auckland Council, which owns the port, said that the wharfies’ behaviour meant we should privatise the port …

Has the penny dropped yet? [yes – it says that] That’s right. These directors aren’t there to run a port. They’re there to sell it. I note that Gibson’s key adviser is one of Roger Douglas’ ideological mates on privatisation.

– http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10777330

Oh, and Yes, the item is by Matt McCarten
True, or the start of the Labour anti assets sales campaign?
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January 8, 2012 8:13am
Fletch

I must be up early 🙂
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January 8, 2012 8:50am
Fletch

Irregardless, $27 an hour is still good money…
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January 8, 2012 8:52am
hmmokrightitis

@Fletch – to move shit around? Damn straight it is.
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January 8, 2012 9:10am
Jimbob

NIWA gave a forecast, paid by the tax payer, that the 2011-2012 summer would be long and hot with beautiful fine weather.
mmm.
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January 8, 2012 9:11am
Lucia Maria

Fletch,

I wouldn’t call it good money. I was earning $25/hour in the early 90’s as a self-employed computer contractor. It was good money back then.
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January 8, 2012 9:12am
iMP

Hokitika tree canopy walkway…what a great idea. If NZ can start thinking and DOING like this, we can incrementally grow our economy. Great use of the gazillions of hectares of locked up Conservation estate. Ok Corporates, start sponsoring a km of walkway thru our pristine podocarps for foreign visitors (DPF could take heaps of photos). Other initiatives I’d look at:

1. How’s that cycleway doin?
2. Trout farming (its huge in Chile).
3. Surgical-strike low footprint mining.
4. Get that oil flowing people.
5. Water to China.
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January 8, 2012 9:16am
nasska

Jimbob

This from the same oracle that preaches from the Gospel of AGW with certainty & an unswerving conviction.
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January 8, 2012 9:18am
Dave Mann

As of this morning the bodies of most of those poor balloon passengers are still lying where they crashed because some clipboard-waving petty bureaucrats are ‘investigating’ the crash. Shit happens. The bloody thing hit a power line FFS… why the need to extend the grief of the families in this macabre way? By all means investigate away but leaving the bodies there all night isn’t going to materially help the process.
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January 8, 2012 9:24am
Falafulu Fisi

NZ Physicist Dr. Sean Gourley the founder of Quid. Inc software company in Silicon Valley has pointed me out to some vacancies at his firm.

One of the vacancy I think that would be of interest to some here to apply for is for someone who is very skillful in language (either word-massaging or wordsmithing) and an extra bonus if the candidate is also an expert on using Wikipedia. For commentators here who would be interested and if you think that you’ve got the skills for any of those positions, then please drop your CV to Dr. Gourley and his team and I’m sure that they will get in touch with you.
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January 8, 2012 9:26am
hmmokrightitis

@iMP, the cycleway. Ive been watching progress, as a keen cycle tourist. I’m doing the Forgotten Highway out and back in a few weeks, around 360K round trip. I will stay 4 nights in places that I would not otherwise have ever ventured – Whanga, Taumranui and Ohura – and drop probably $250 each night for food, drink and accommodation. And I know that the people I ride with will be doing the same.

No, its not a massive blow against sovereign debt, but in 10 years time, this country will FINALLY be a mecca for cycle tourists. Every year I make a pilgrimage to France for a month of cycling, and I still will, but I will also do it here as well – and watch the numbers grow as the reputation spreads.

Oh, and BTW, not having a go, but the cycle community is really lapping this up, and we are seeing small businesess already start to spring up and prosper around the new trails. Its exciting stuff for those communities.
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January 8, 2012 9:27am
Jimbob

Yes nasska, just like the Met office in the UK.
Also we never really found out the real story why Jim Salinger was sacked from NIWA.
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January 8, 2012 9:27am
Pete George

NIWA gave a forecast, paid by the tax payer, that the 2011-2012 summer would be long and hot with beautiful fine weather.

That’s close to how it’s been in the south. Had a great run of weather in Dunedin, except that the ground is dry and cracking, we could do with some decent rain.
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January 8, 2012 9:31am
Other_Andy

The Next Big AGW Scare

And its going to cost you money

I wondered, now the computers models that predicted rising temperature due to AGW are starting to look a bit iffy, what will be the next scare?
And by golly, they have found it. Chatter on the Internet shows that the next ‘big issue’, to try to prolong the AGW scare, has been gaining momentum in the last two years since it was first mentioned around 2005. New Zealand has been a bit slow on the uptake, untill now the NZ Herald has only published a few articles and now there is one by Stuff.
The next big AGW scare is……
Ocean acidification.

So if you are involved in ‘Environmental Studies’, make sure you read up on that one, that’s where the next big research grants will be going.

Acid test for evil twin of climate change

Marine biologist Donna Roberts says they expect to find evidence of pteropod shell thinning due to ocean acidification, a consequence of carbon absorption in the oceans.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/6226939/Acid-test-for-evil-twin-of-climate-change

So they expect to find evidence……
And I bet they will, somehow, someway…..

Is this testing a theory or is the science settled and have they already made up their mind on what is happening AND what is causing it and just need to find evidence?

1. Fact, there is shell thinning.
2. Fact, shell thinning is due to ocean acidification.
3. Fact, ocean acidification is a consequence of carbon absorption in the oceans
4. Fact, increased carbon absorption in the ocean is due to rising CO2 levels in the atmosphere
5. Fact, rising CO2 levels are anthropogenic.

“Acidification is expected to increase significantly over the next century. “
“We often call it the evil twin of climate change,” Roberts said.
“If we can see changes there then we’ll be able to inform on marine protected areas and policies and perhaps add to the debate about reducing emissions, not just for climate change’s sake but for saving food chains.”

I love the ‘New Age Science’.

I must admit I don’t know much about pteropods but what I do know is that the formation of pteropod shells is similar to coral formation.

So what is good for coral is probably good for pteropods…..

According to several sources.
Coral was extremely rare until the Ordovician period.
Another period when there was a spike in coral growth was the Jurassic period.

So what were the climate conditions during those periods?

Ordovian period
CO2 levels were above 2000 ppm (Lowest estimate) and probably around 4000 ppm (Today around 380 ppm)
Early Ordovian average around 25 °C. late ordovian about the same as today.
Jurassic Period
CO2 levels were above 500 ppm (Lower estimate) and probably around 2000 ppm.
Early Jurassic average around 25 °C. late Jurassic about 17 °C.

Try finding out what the average global temperature is and Google “Average Global Temperature”.
All I can find is a rough estimate that the Average Global Temperature is around 13 °C

So in short, coral did very well in periods where temperatures and CO2 levels were considerably higher than today.
Go figure….
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January 8, 2012 9:41am
Other_Andy

@Pete George

“NIWA gave a forecast, paid by the tax payer, that the 2011-2012 summer would be long and hot with beautiful fine weather.
That’s close to how it’s been in the south. Had a great run of weather in Dunedin, except that the ground is dry and cracking, we could do with some decent rain.”

Here up North we’ve only seen a few sunny days so far. It has been raining in the last few days (weeks?) and it is raining as I type this. I would love to send some of this wet stuff your way.
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January 8, 2012 9:59am
JamesS

The line of succession for the US Presidency is as follows –

1. Vice President – Joe Biden
2. Speaker of the House of Representatives – John Boehner
3. President Pro Tempore of the Senate – Daniel Inouye
4. Secretary of State – Hillary Clinton
5. Secretary of the Treasury
(etc)

If the luckiest assassin in history got 4 shots off and killed Obama, Biden, Boehner and Inouye why would Hillary Clinton NOT become US President? (not a trick question but does involve a bit of thinking)

[DPF: I believe she would, so long as all four were killed within seconds of each other]
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January 8, 2012 10:15am
tvb

The Rena has finally split in two. The media have been speculating about this for weeks and weeks. They have finally got their wish. Now we will have all sorts of poorly researched speculative stories about debris and the remainder of the oil. The facts are too inconvenient for tomorrow’s fish and chip paper.
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January 8, 2012 10:33am
backster

ANDY………..But won’t the rapidly rising ocean depth as a result of all the ice melting have a negative effect on acidification.
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January 8, 2012 10:44am
Manolo

A restless crook looking for fools to give him more money: http://www.scpr.org/blogs/environment/2012/01/06/4192/al-gore-looking-few-good-sustainable-games/
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January 8, 2012 10:46am
Pauleastbay

JamesS

To be sworn in you currently have to reside and work full time in Washington DC
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January 8, 2012 10:46am
JamesS

Pauleastbay – ha ha; no the actual answer to the question is that although in theory there is a line of succession, in practice the House of Representatives would simply elect a new Speaker (who would almost immediately become President).
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January 8, 2012 10:56am
Manolo

Talking about DC and the stupidity of politicians from all over the world: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/01/07/dc-lawmakers-propose-requiring-students-to-apply-to-college/

King Canute lives!
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January 8, 2012 10:58am
Jimbob

Other-Andy.
Anthony Watts has had numerous posts on so called ocean acidification, and explained it is a nonsense. The ocean is alkaline at about ph 8.4-8.6, some places it is lower, which is just fine for corals and pteropods. Also when atmospheric temperatures rise, CO2 is released from the ocean, making it more alkaline, and when temperatures drop the ocean absorbs CO2, the opposite to what these so called scientists are looking for.
Who funds these clowns?
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January 8, 2012 11:01am
Other_Andy

@backster

Interesting question…
Maybe not enough to prevent acidification or maybe it is a ‘inconvinient truth’ (pun intended).

@jimbob

“Who funds these clowns?”

Directly and indirectly, you and me through taxes.
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January 8, 2012 11:15am
Radman

Perhaps one of the religious conservatives who frequent this site could answer this question for me.

If God really loved all humans and wanted them to join Him in Heaven in their afterlife, how could He allow them to die burning in a hot air balloon hundreds of metres off the ground; and also allow two to jump to their death because they were so petrified and full of panic? How do these deaths relate to the saying we often hear “it was their time”? Because maybe it was, but surely no loving God makes it their time in that manner.
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January 8, 2012 11:22am
Scott Chris

Fletch says:- “Irregardless, $27 an hour is still good money…”

Funny word “irregardless”. It’s a double-negative but has been in use since the early 20th century. Thought to be a blend of ‘irrespective’ and ‘regardless’.
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January 8, 2012 11:24am
reid

Certainly Radman, the answer to why evil of any form including this form exists, is free will. The same answer applies regardless of what form of evil it is. For example the same answer applies to what happened to that 22-year-old who was killed in Auckland and to these people here.

I don’t think others wish to re-litigate this question however which comes up all the time here so why don’t you follow this discussion on it from two days ago if you’re curious, I’ve got nothing more to add than what I said about it there.

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/01/destiny_city.html
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January 8, 2012 11:29am
noskire

Interesting. Rocket deployed UAV made in New Zealand.
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January 8, 2012 11:58am
wat dabney

“Electricity and gas bills to be slashed by 10% as energy companies get set for price war”

Not a headline you could ever see in New Zealand, where the state abuses its monopoly to loot and plunder consumers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083478/Electricity-gas-bills-slashed-10-energy-companies-set-price-war.html
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January 8, 2012 12:02pm
Fletch

Funny word “irregardless”. It’s a double-negative but has been in use since the early 20th century. Thought to be a blend of ‘irrespective’ and ‘regardless’.

Indeed, and both regardless and irregardless mean the same thing.
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January 8, 2012 12:06pm
Scott Chris

reid

I think radman wants to know why God sees fit to intervene in some circumstances and not others. Why would his son and mortal agent cure one guys leprosy and bring another back to life, but not do it for everyone?

The answer is, of course, that God doesn’t intervene at all. Nor does the Devil. Shit happens, and can always be explained in terms of causality.

Enter science. Exit God.
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January 8, 2012 12:09pm
Manolo

Scott, you’re speaking perfect common sense this morning. Was it the cooked breakfast?
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January 8, 2012 12:16pm
adze

noskire

Yes, many people don’t realise there is a small but significant defence industry in NZ. I recall someone saying (can’t remember on which medium) that a company down the road from his house was once testing target acquisition lasers down the street, resulting in some interesting light shows. 🙂
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January 8, 2012 12:23pm
Keeping Stock

What is it with the Liverpool FC and racial abuse?

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2012/01/liverpool-and-racism.html
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January 8, 2012 12:25pm
Paulus

Am I the only one who is becoming more surprised at the mental health of the editorial staff of our MSM ?
Today, again, following the Herald style diatribes of recent times, the SST is ranting to a degree left of the Greens.
What gives ? – its editorials and its letters are a rant of doctinaires left of even socialism.
I have no problem with a balanced support of the centre left ie Labour, but to go even left of the Greens is something I have difficulty understanding.
I can accept that they are getting into practice for the next General Election. following the recent one they lost, but such a dramatic unbalance is a puzzle.
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January 8, 2012 12:30pm
Other_Andy

Fun with Numbers

Percentage of Carbon dioxide (CO2) in the Earth’s atmosphere
0.039% * 100.0% = 0.039%
Percentage of Anthropogenic CO2 in the Earth’s atmosphere
0.117% * 0.039% = 0.00004563%
New Zealand’s share of Anthropogenic CO2 in the Earth’s atmosphere
0.110%* 0.00004563% = 0.00000005%

New Zealand is promising to reduce its CO2 emissions by 30%.
This means that the percentage of CO2 as part of the Earth’s atmosphere will be reduced by…
0.00000000150579%
And how much will this cost?

Around $500,000,000.00

Federated Farmers has calculated the Emissions Trading Scheme will directly cost New Zealand businesses and families $527 million in its first year. Indirect cost impacts will likely add tens of millions more.
http://www.fedfarm.org.nz/527millplus
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January 8, 2012 12:37pm
reid

Scott I’m sick of explaining basic things to ignorant people on this subject. It’s extremely frustrating since none of you understand the significance of the things I point out to you since you have to have a basic framework in order to know where what I’m saying fits into the general picture and none of you have that.

This is the last answer I’m going to give anyone for awhile on this and I’ll just leave those with no understanding to wallow in your own ignorance re: this subject. If you think I’m being harsh its only because do you really think the questions you ask haven’t already been asked and answered and you can if you care to, find the theological answer yourself simply by typing a few keywords. Instead you leave it those of us who do understand to do the work you could easily do yourself, and while it’s my duty to spread the word, sometimes I just get tired.

The answer is there’s a passage in the Bible it may be in Proverbs but I think it could possibly be in one of Paul’s books – I can’t find it – which basically says no-one can understand the mind of G-d. In other words, why one person is saved by a miracle and another dies a horrible gruesome death requires understanding and wisdom that human beings simply aren’t capable of.

Now I know to some perhaps even most of you that won’t be satisfactory at all and the reason you think that is because you have no idea of the framework surrounding that answer understanding how the relationship between G-d and His people works and part of that you can get from reading the Bible really carefully and part from living a G-d focused life and part from understanding a bit of the relevant theology. If you don’t have that you can’t understand that answer. Even if I explained it in basic terms like: it’s a bit like we’re a small child and G-d is our parent. Just like our parents, G-d doesn’t explain everything they know to us because we just wouldn’t understand so what’s the point. Even if I explained it intellectually like that, you still wouldn’t understand the significance of the answer because you don’t understand that it’s not an intellectual question you’re posing it’s a deep, spiritual one but you don’t get that.

This is why I’m simply exhausted so don’t expect anymore answers from me on this, for quite awhile. I expect that won’t disappoint very many, anyway.
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January 8, 2012 12:39pm
AlphaKiwi

To all the Christians and religious people. God doesn’t want you wasting your time on political blogs. He wants you to use your time more productively to help the poor and needy.

e.g. visit old people; work in a soup kitchen; organise a clothes or food drive; teach illiterates to read, etc.
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January 8, 2012 12:49pm
Johnboy

“This is why I’m simply exhausted so don’t expect anymore answers from me on this, for quite awhile. I expect that won’t disappoint very many, anyway.”

Now don’t give up on us reid.

While I may not be much of a religious man there have been occasions when hanging on a bit of a steep face and contemplating the void below, or crossing a swollen river, or boating over the seven metre swells in Foveaux Strait or attempting the landing in twice the crosswind component that I have appealed to your G-d.

He must have thought that I was worthy of saving as I am still here. 🙂

Perhaps these other heretics (who are but children) just need you to persevere a little more. 🙂
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January 8, 2012 12:57pm
Scott Chris

reid says:- “which basically says no-one can understand the mind of G-d”

Or the lord moves in mysterious ways. Complete cop out.

Why not say ‘I don’t know’

Thing is, you agree with me. You said, “the answer…… is free will”

Free will, at least free from any deific influence, means no intervention.

On the other hand, if you see Christians as God’s agents, then God does intervene by proxy.
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January 8, 2012 1:03pm
holysheet

Why be selective about passages in the bible Reid? You either believe ALL of the bible or none of it. In my case none of it.
In the beginning god made the earth and all in it in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Adam and eve had 2 sons Kane and Able.
Then what happened Reid? Oh thats right, they got their wives from the land of Nod.

Never read so much shit in all my life. I am still waiting 60 years for someone to explain this to me.
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January 8, 2012 1:17pm
Pete George

You either believe ALL of the bible or none of it.

I don’t agree – although I guess it depends on what you think ‘believe’ means. I think some of the biblical writings are based on believable things, and some of the intent of some of the Bible’s messages seem believable. And I believe that many people get a lot out of what they see in the Bible, and everything could learn something useful from it.

Even belief in God is not binary – it depends on what an individual’s perception of God is.

The world and life is far too complex to have an all or nothing belief system.
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January 8, 2012 1:31pm
holysheet

it depends on what an individual’s perception of God is

Yeah and it’s that kind of thinking that allows zealots to justify anything they do as being okay in the eyes of their god. Tell that to all the catlick kids fiddled with by the priests. and the murdered innocent victims of the suicide bombings conducted by the ragheads.
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January 8, 2012 1:49pm
Pete George

Using a god or religion as an excuse for doing crappy things is different to belief or faith. Crappy people find any excuse that’s convenient for justifying their crap, to themselves. If the excuse isn’t religion it’s alcohol or perceived social deprivation or whatever they can use to try and avoid personal responsibility.
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January 8, 2012 1:57pm
reid

The terrible truth about Facebook:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJqGbA2tLww&feature=related

The men who invented radar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca4v6F9b8wo&feature=related

The Secret War [Ep1 1/5]: “The Battle of the Beams”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6SkWxL5FzE

Engineering Britain’s Superweapons [Ep1 1/5]: “V-Bombers”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfOo7pRagZY
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January 8, 2012 2:04pm
BlueGriffon

The SST ask 50 people what their wishes are for 2012. So what would Sue Bradford, Nicky Hager, Robyn Malcomn and every other leftist wish for….

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/6226224/What-we-re-hopeful-about-in-2012

Is Natalie Edwards related to Carmel by any chance?
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January 8, 2012 2:08pm
BlueGriffon

Here’s an intriguing story that could become big:
http://www.moderationblog.com/2012/01/cotton-on-to-newmarket-racism_07.html#comment-form

Haven’t been shopping in Newmarket for years. It used to be a bit hoity toity so maybe it hasn’t changed.
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January 8, 2012 2:42pm
Pete George

That’s an awful wish from Natalie Edwards:

Natalie Edwards, 45. Customer service, Auckland

I am really hopeful that the Labour Party will get its s— together and become a really strong opposition force next year. I also hope that people will wake up and see what a fraud John Key is. And that Paula Bennett has a meltdown and has to live on the sickness benefit.

If that’s the sort of shit Labour supporters try and get together then David Shearer has a challenge.
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January 8, 2012 2:46pm
TimG_Oz

Hello Peter George,

I have a question for you. Last week, there was a post on this site regarding Extremists in Israel. The #10 on the United Future list took it as an opportunity to launch a diatribe comparing Zionists to Nazis. Now that’s OK for your usual hater nutcase, but a prospective rep for United Future??

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/12/religious_fanaticism.html#comment-918546

I’m actually quite surprised, as Peter Dunne has always been a fairly tolerant man, and I’ve always found him good to deal with. Also that UF is usally very balanced and tolerant.

So, what’s the story? Where does United Future stand? If elected, would Mr Gibson have been the UF foreign affairs spokesman? Do you or others in UF share his stance?

Very keen to hear your thoughts on this.

Thanks
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January 8, 2012 2:56pm
Longknives

Aah the tired old Religion vs Athiesm debate…both sides smugly insisting they know for sure what happens after we die.
I happily admit I havn’t got a bloody clue- I don’t think any of us have really..
Speaking of religion- Elvis would have been 76 today. Happy Birthday King!
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January 8, 2012 3:42pm
Scott Chris

Heh, Ozzi Tim is on another Crusade.

Actually Nazism and Zionism ideologies have a fair bit in common ironically. And if the similarities are there, why not point them out? Because thought police might yell, “Anti-Semite!”? Tends to happen in the wider world a fair bit, but thankfully, frank discussion is permissible in cyberspace.

Zionist ideology centers on nationalism, traditionalism and the importance of the ethnostate. Then there’s a priori privilege that trumps any fripperies such as civil rights, human rights and international law.

Force majeure are the means and coercion and virtual imprisonment are the ends. Characteristically one also notices a sense of entitlement based on previous victimhood.

(adapted from a rather more inflammatory polemic by Jewish American Roger Tucker)

http://www.redress.cc/zionism/rtucker20100222#bio
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January 8, 2012 3:43pm
TimG_Oz

Dick. Call me when you are standing publicly for a political party, and I’ll address your bullshit.
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January 8, 2012 3:51pm
Scott Chris

Longknives says:- “….what happens after we die. I happily admit I havn’t got a bloody clue”

Well ask yourself this. What is consciousness, and through what means does it function? If your answer is:

“I am my consciousness and my brain makes it function” then when you die, your brain dies and your consciousness ends with it.

If you think you have a soul, then presumable this will somehow transport your consciousness to an afterlife. I’d be curious to know however what makes you think a soul or an afterlife exists.
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January 8, 2012 3:54pm
reid

If that’s the sort of shit Labour supporters try and get together then David Shearer has a challenge.

But Pete you’re not allowed to be a lefty if you don’t think like that. Lefties have an in-breed streak of immense self-righteousness a.k.a. “the cause” which means not for my benefit but in the name of helping victims of [select category], this means I can do anything.

Particularly clever lefties (clever in their own minds only of course) think a good way to help even more victims would be generalising this trait into the wider arena so this means there are no rules at all anywhere because it doesn’t matter, if I don’t do this, then I won’t be helping my victims that that gives me a sore tummy.

Now this is a dynamic that adjusts not by choice but by design of the dynamic Pete. By this I mean the more of a lefty you are, the more this dynamic will operate in your world view, and it’s all subconscious, you don’t know you’re doing it. For examples of these, at the most reasonable end of the scale and I hope Ryan you’ll forgive me for calling you a lefty but you have people like Ryan Sproull who it’s really hard to tell even whether or not they are in fact a lefty and at the less reasonable end you get people like Sue Bradford, Minto, Bomber Bradbury and that piddling little tosser Gareth Hughes who are so unreasonable and blind you just wish they weren’t even there. Not that they don’t have a right to be, it’s just you wish somehow there was a rule whereby lefties like that weren’t allowed to be involved in politics at all, because they’re complete idiots who generate tremendous friction over the years, like an enormous and permanent sea-anchor on the good ship NZ.

But this warm-tummy victim thing is a dynamic in every lefty, it’s why they are a lefty. The degree to which they let it overrule their ethics just depends on how fanatically left they are. The reason I label it as being self-righteous is because the degree to which lefties think that they and their fellow lefties alone possess such altruistic traits, is IMO very correlated to their position on aforementioned spectrum and the harder left they are on that spectrum is the degree to which they think they alone possess altruism. For example listen to anything Bradford says. I well recall for example a classic comment she made on RadioNZ Hooten and her on Monday politics where she referred to him being typical of what the real attitude is but there are hundreds. And she really does think she and her ilk are the only ones who care. And what is that but complete and utter smug self-righteousness of the first order with stars, oak leaves, bronze and silver swords with diamonds?

If only all lefties were like Ryan Sproull.
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January 8, 2012 3:56pm
Scott Chris

heh Ozzi Tim uses insults as argument.

~How rational.~
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January 8, 2012 3:56pm
reid

I well recall for example a classic comment she made on RadioNZ Hooten and her on Monday politics where she referred to him being typical of what the real attitude is but there are hundreds. And she really does think she and her ilk are the only ones who care. And what is that but complete and utter smug self-righteousness of the first order with stars, oak leaves, bronze and silver swords with diamonds?

Take two: sorry I didn’t read it after posting:

I well recall for example a classic comment she made on RadioNZ Hooten and her on Monday politics about Alisdair Thompson where she referred to him being typical of what the real attitude is but there are hundreds. And she really does think she and her ilk are the only ones who care. And what is that but complete and utter smug self-righteousness of the first order with stars, oak leaves, bronze and silver swords with diamonds?
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January 8, 2012 4:36pm
Pete George

TimG_Oz

Where does United Future stand?

No specific policy on Israel.

If elected, would Mr Gibson have been the UF foreign affairs spokesman?

I have no idea, and doubt whther that would have been considered prior to the election.

Do you or others in UF share his stance?

It’s not something I’ve heard discussed within UF so I have no idea.

I don’t have a stance on Israel, Jews or Zionism. I could come up with some sympathies and some criticisms but it would be very superficial on a very complex and longstanding package of issues.

Anyone from UF should speak for themselves as individuals on it as they are able to, if they choose.

Specifically on what you raise it would need Martin to respond further to what he commented and what he’s linked to.

A quick search on Google on Nazism and Zionism would suggest it’s a significant topic. Are you suggesting there’s no similarity between them?
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January 8, 2012 5:41pm
TimG_Oz

Hi Peter

Yes, I am suggesting that it’s an extremist point of view, at odds with the policies and commitments of UF.

Martin has based his opinion on the views of one person, and if you follow his interviews, its clear he has not looked to get an alternate point of view, or analyse the statement in any way.

To compare Zionism to Nazism is not critical thinking or analysis. It is demonisation. To not allow a response, is a double standard.

If I were you, I would be extremely embarrassed to be associated by such views. They are a discredit to your party. It could have been extremely damaging if it was outed during the campaign.
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January 8, 2012 5:51pm
Scott Chris

God the hypocrisy. TimG_Oz says:

“To compare Zionism to Nazism is not critical thinking or analysis. It is demonisation.”

Two sentences later:

“If I were you, I would be extremely embarrassed to be associated by such views. They are a discredit to your party.”

Funny how an idealist’s zeal can blind him. Of course you can compare the two idealisms if there are apparent similarities between the two. If you don’t think they are similar then you are free to debate the tenuousness of the links made.

But first you have to take the emotion out of the argument. You can’t argue rationally with emotion.
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January 8, 2012 6:02pm
JamesS

Is Scott Chris up to his old tricks again? using clever code words when he ‘really’ means “I hate Jews”? hmmmmmmmm
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January 8, 2012 6:22pm
Lucia Maria

Radman,

If you are still around, I’ll give your question of 11:22 am my answer.

When God sees us, He sees our entire life all at once. This is because He exists outside of time. So, He sees our life, where we will end up, what choices we make, how those choices affect others and how He could influence those choices while still respecting our free will.

He’s not going to make this life free of danger and consequence – we’d never learn from our actions that way.

There are also many, many ways to die and we will all die. Some more slowly and painfully than others. And some deaths will remind most of us of our mortality. It’s harder to ignore when many people die in comparison to the odd person here and there.

God does all He can in order to bring the maximum good out of every bad situation. Many bad situations are actively prevented by Him, but not all. Why the balloon accident wasn’t prevented, only He can know. I would not want to speculate.

A loving God designed a world in which human beings didn’t have to die. That was not part of our original design. Death is a consequence of original sin, however, and that’s just the way it is for now.
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January 8, 2012 6:27pm
Pete George

TimG – I have no reason to feel embarrassed, especially without seeing any response from Martin. You haven’t analysed anything either, you haven’t made a case, you have been superficially critical and seem to be trying to guilt me because of someone else’s brief comments. I don’t feel a need to put time into researching this adequately to debate it.
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January 8, 2012 6:35pm
TimG_Oz

Hi Pete,

Firstly, these “brief” comments are fairly damning, and there is clearly a history. I would welcome Mr Gibson to make a statement to clarify his own position (although if you read through them, and look at his articles in Gisborne Herald, it seems quite clear).

I am definitely not trying to “guilt” you. I have no idea how the UF list was chosen, and I doubt you had a vote from Dunedin North on who the candidate would be from East Coast. I would welcome you to enlighten me on the UF selection process.
It’s pretty clear that neither you nor Peter Dunne had any wind of Mr Gibson’s views on this matter, so there is no guilt by association, and I apologise if you thought that was what I was suggesting

I am however trying to get the position confirmed by the party on their position on this topic – using you as the mouthpiece at KB. You don’t have to answer to the claims against Mr Gibson.

I appreciate that once the position of UF is confirmed, that this could be embarrassing to Mr Gibson if he holds different views. As a (prospective) politician, giving a straight answer to the question (simple as it is), could be a challenge for you.
I find the response “We don’t have a policy” fairly hard to believe, because at the very least you will have some idea as to how it fits in with the ideals of the party.

Regards
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January 8, 2012 6:52pm
Scott Chris

JamesS says:- “code words when he ‘really’ means “I hate Jews”?’

That argument won’t work James. In fact it would be racist of me not to criticize certain aspects of Israel’s foreign policy and yet openly criticize certain aspects of the Syrian or Libyan or Zimbabwean or the American governments foreign policy.

Heck, I discriminate indiscriminately.

If I were to refrain from criticizing Israel, but continue to criticize the others, I would be discriminating racially.

Would you care to rebut that argument? Or are you just going to scream “Anti-Semite” like free speech loving TimG Oz?
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January 8, 2012 7:10pm
big bruv

“Why the balloon accident wasn’t prevented, only He can know. I would not want to speculate.”

Afraid you might not be able to reconcile how your all caring all knowing God could be such a bastard or because you might doubt your faith?

Of course there is a much easier explanation….there is no bloody God.
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January 8, 2012 7:11pm
JamesS

Scott Chris I realise the liberal lefties are fundamentally deceitful people so am probably barking up the wrong tree here –

But I think you should go and see a psychiatrist and be honest (!) with him “Mr Psychiatrist I have a couple of dirty, filthy shameful secrets – I am kinda turned on by transexuals (so much so I just want to protect them!) and really turned on by SS uniforms (so much so I just want to invade Poland and set up a death camp); can you help me?”

It presupposes a level of honesty and self awareness you do not possess, but that is what I think you should do
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January 8, 2012 7:14pm
mikenmild

Now I see it JamesS, thanks for demonstrating so cogently that any criticism of Israel is the same as whole-hearted endorsement of Nazism and genocide. Scott will really be put in his place now.
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January 8, 2012 7:27pm
Lucia Maria

Big Bruv,

No. Out of respect for the dead, I’m not going to bring them into this debate. They’re not even buried, yet!
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January 8, 2012 7:35pm
reid

Lucia, bravo @ 6:27.

Someone has to.
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January 8, 2012 7:58pm
Scott Chris

Just as I thought James. You have no argument.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

On a lighter note:

Insanity is hereditary; you can get it from your children. – Sam Levenson

Vote for the man who promises the least; he’ll be the least disappointing. – Bernard Baruch

I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member. – Groucho Marx

Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. THAT’S relativity. – Albert Einstein

If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor. – Albert Einstein

It’s amazing that the amount of news that happens in the world every day always just exactly fits the newspaper. – Jerry Seinfeld

Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. – Henry A. Kissinger

Happiness is having a large, loving, caring, close-knit family in another city. – George Burns

A committee is a group that keeps minutes and loses hours. – Milton Berle

I once wanted to become an atheist but I gave up . . . they have no holidays. – Henny Youngman

Let me tell you the one thing I have against Moses. He took us forty years into the desert in order to bring us to the one place in the Middle East that has no oil! – Golda Meir

Despite everything, I believe that people are really good at heart.

Anne Frank

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/anne_frank.html#ixzz1iqdEtQMz
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Shalom
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January 8, 2012 8:01pm
holysheet

Out of respect for the dead, I’m not going to bring them into this debate. They’re not even buried, yet!

Do you think they give a shit what you say about them. They are dead.
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January 8, 2012 8:07pm
nasska

In school one day the teacher decided that in science class she would teach about materials; So she stood in the front of the class and said, “Children, if you could have one raw material in the world what would it be?”

Little Stevie raised his hand and said “I would want gold, because gold is
worth a lot of money and I could buy a Porsche.”

The teacher nodded and called on little Susie. Little Susie said, “I would want platinum because platinum is worth more than gold and I could buy a Corvette”.

The teacher smiled and then called on Little Johnny. Little Johnny stood up and said, “I would want silicon.” The teacher said, “Why Johnny?”

He replied, “Because my mum has two bags of it and you should see all the sports cars outside our house!!”
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January 8, 2012 8:10pm
big bruv

Lucia

They are dead, there is nothing we can do about that now (as tragic as the whole thing is).

It always amazes me the contortions you lot go through to justify your faith. If your God did exist then even you would have to say he is a heartless bastard.
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January 8, 2012 8:58pm
Manolo

Take a look: http://video.foxnews.com/v/1373733049001/bungee-jump-goes-terribly-wrong
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January 9, 2012 7:20am

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