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January 3, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 3 January 2012

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Viking2

The All Black plane unveiled

Watch as All Black players Kieran Read and Andy Ellis help to unveil the new Boeing 777-300ER in Seattle. Video: Air NZ

The Australian3 January 2012

ANOTHER reminder of Kiwi rugby supremacy has taken to the skies as Air New Zealand’s newest Boeing 777-300ER became the world’s largest commercially operated aircraft painted all black.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/air-new-zealand-launches-black-planes-to-celebrate-the-nations-rugby-supremacy/story-e6frg95x-1226235477300
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January 3, 2012 8:44pm
pollywog

and it might be worth remembering that without Pasifikan muscle and brains, the all blacks would be pooh…

🙂
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January 3, 2012 8:48pm
pollywog

Why that is, is just as much a modern enigma as to why the Fourth Estate is now
so perverted in favour of the left.

eh ???…dunno where you live, but here in NZ it’s the nutjob apologists that run the MSM and with that control the sheeples consciousness.
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January 3, 2012 8:51pm
Pauleastbay

V2 @8.11

So, Paul, which of these doesn’t know how to do the same…………………….

but its only the drunken dwarf whose arrogant enough to bend you over without even the hint of a kiss.
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January 3, 2012 8:58pm
big bruv

So…the question seems to be this.

Would we rather live in NZ as it was pre 84 or would we rather live as it is now?

There are some things that I would like to have back but I would not give up any of the freedoms we have today in exchange.

I like being able to purchase quality products, I like being in a society where the unions have no or very little say and I like that I can be rewarded for hard work.

I also like the fact (and it is a fact) that in todays society (far more than it was back then) everybody…and yes I do mean everybody, has a chance to make it.
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January 3, 2012 8:58pm
reid

Aside from obvious biological roles, what is the traditional role of the father and mother in a family unit? Are you referring to outdated notions of women staying home to raise the kids while the mans goes out to work?

Weihana here’s what I’ve observed from living life. Men and women are in fact built differently. We operate from different paradigms, we think about things differently and have different needs because different things actualise us as people.

The first hurdle for pwogwessives is to acknowledge this is a fact. For example, women nurture children and presumably since this has happened since time immemorial this nurtures them – having the love of their children and the discharge of that fundamental responsibility. Fathers do this too but its not in the same way.

Now pwogwessives Weihana seem to imagine that acknowledging that is somehow wong. It’s cwuel and inhuman to acknowledge something like that.

Aren’t they mental.

I don’t really think its necessary to spell out the “traditional roles” of a mother and father in a family Weihana, normally we all pick it up as we go along. I’m sure you’ll get the hang of it one day.
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January 3, 2012 8:59pm
big bruv

“Pasifikan”

There is that ‘word’ again.
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January 3, 2012 9:01pm
nasska

Cafe au lait with Haemorrhoids

The Pasifikan muscle might be okay but I’ve seen better brains on a plastic tray wrapped in clingfoil at the local butcher’s.

I blame the culture of cannibalism that was endemic before we introduced civilisation to your lot.
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January 3, 2012 9:03pm
Pauleastbay

Totally agree Bruv

Its not perfect but ………………
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January 3, 2012 9:03pm
Scott Chris

reid says:- “why then does everything feminists insist upon subvert as in undermine the traditional role of the father and/or the mother in the traditional family unit?”

Don’t you think that’s fair? Aren’t women equally capable of leading a family as men? For the most part, families are pretty much the same as they have always been albeit on a smaller scale. Mum, Dad, Kids and Rellies. The only difference is that the father is no longer automatically head of the household and marriages/partnerships aren’t as cohesive as they once were.

And you have a choice. No doubt you married a traditional gal because you suited eachother. What other families do is their business surely?

The other thing of course is the correlation between women’s empowerment and a falling birthrate. Feminism may well have saved us from generating completely unsustainable population numbers. Nah. Feminism is a good thing.
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January 3, 2012 9:12pm
pollywog

I blame the culture of cannibalism that was endemic before we introduced civilisation to your lot.

and hows that tame and civilised native population working out for ya ?

yeah, me neither.

time to evolve or die.

read that link i posted and get on board or just crawl under a rock and die quietly.
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January 3, 2012 9:15pm
reid

Don’t you think that’s fair? Aren’t women equally capable of leading a family as men?

Not if there are boys in that family Scott. Sorry, they’re just not. As a species. Sometimes a woman will do a much much better job of it than the available man/men but this is because Scott because that/those guy(s) in that case weren’t/arent men they’re immature fools, probably a pwogwessive to boot, so of course it’s a major fail. It has to be. It can’t be different. That’s what the Mayan Calendar said Scott: pwogwessives will fuck it up, all the time, no matter what. What else does one expect?

Aren’t they hopeless?
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January 3, 2012 9:24pm
Weihana

reid,

I agree, in a general sense, that men and women tend to possess different attributes that have evolved for one reason or another. But I don’t see this as inconsistent with feminism. Feminism, for me, is the idea that women shouldn’t be prejudiced by antiquated notions of their “role” before they’ve had an opportunity to prove themselves in whatever role they choose for themselves. Where feminism fails, in my view, is when they try to look at statistics and assume something is going wrong because the statistics aren’t equal.
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January 3, 2012 9:27pm
Viking2

Recession looms in Singapore
January 3, 2012 – 3:28PM

Singapore’s trade-driven economy contracted in the last three months of 2011, signalling it may slip into a technical recession as a slump in manufacturing output and slowdown in external demand hurt exports.

The contraction, however, is unlikely to bring about a change in monetary policy which leans towards a gradual and modest appreciation of the Singapore dollar, most economists said.

Advance estimates showed gross domestic product (GDP) fell 4.9 per cent in the fourth quarter compared with the July-September period on a seasonally adjusted, annualised rate.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/business/world-business/recession-looms-in-singapore-20120103-1pj9a.html#ixzz1iNkgV3a0

http://www.theage.com.au/business/world-business/recession-looms-in-singapore-20120103-1pj9a.html
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January 3, 2012 9:31pm
Weihana

reid,

You appear to be committing the same fallacy as the feminists outraged over the suggestion that transgender people are not real women. A man is a man reid, by virtue of his genetics. That he is a liberal or a “pwogwessive” makes no difference, he is still a man.

I think you made a very good point that couples work these things out as they go along and just because a certain arrangement works with you is no reason to condemn or criticize others who make different arrangements that work for them.
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January 3, 2012 9:34pm
calendar girl

Delicious irony from JamesS @ 6:15: “Schools teaching pupils to read, right and spell (fancy that!)”

“Educated” since 1983 I presume, JamesS.
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January 3, 2012 9:39pm
Scott Chris

Weihana says:- “Where feminism fails, in my view, is when they try to look at statistics and assume something is going wrong because the statistics aren’t equal.”

I don’t agree. Provided your analysis of the stats isn’t biased, there is no reason why you can’t use stats to identify disparities between what women actually earn for instance, and what they should earn.

If a set of stats show that a man and a woman of equal experience and equal qualifications and equal proficiency are not earning the same wage, then that would suggest to me that something is wrong and needs addressing. (assuming an egalitarian premise)
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January 3, 2012 9:40pm
Adolf Fiinkensein

BB@9:01

Of course they are not far removed from Mexicans – in so many ways.
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January 3, 2012 9:42pm
nasska

pollywog

A sixty nine page PDF file for a link? I’ve read the guts of the file & I would conclude that it was an “Introduction to Green Mind Control, 101.”

What a load of shit. Even if one embraced the practise of tree hugging one couldn’t but be put off by the arrogant, we know best, communist, freedom hating theme of the whole document.

Propaganda.
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January 3, 2012 9:43pm
Weihana

Scott Chris,

“If a set of stats show that a man and a woman of equal experience and equal qualifications and equal proficiency are not earning the same wage”

If that criteria is met then I agree with you. Do such statistics exist which show women are paid less than men despite equal experience, qualifications and proficiency?
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January 3, 2012 9:52pm
pollywog

I’ve read the guts of the file & I would conclude that it was an “Introduction to Green Mind Control, 101.”

What a load of shit. Even if one embraced the practise of tree hugging one couldn’t but be put off by the arrogant, we know best, communist, freedom hating theme of the whole document.

Propaganda.

propaganda for what…a more co operative and sustainable society with less, but more relevent government ?

yeah cos that’s just fucking evil and subversive eh ?…jeez, you’re one truly damaged individual!

That it reaffirmed your worldview i assume is a generational thing. Maintain the status quo, nothing is wrong, keep calm and carry on. Everyone should aspire to be rich and buy as much shit as they think will make them happy.

That’s fine, if you dont want to evolve i’m sweet with that, just don’t fucken get in the way of others that do.
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January 3, 2012 10:04pm
Luc Hansen

Meanwhile, misogynists and racists and the narrow minded, think on this:

Obama has just signed into law a bill authourising the US military to arrest anyone, anywhere, anytime, with the only justification that it suspects terrorism may be afoot.

Obama issued a statement with the bill to say he wouldn’t detain US citizens under this bill (although he has already authourised the murder of US citizens outside the US, duly carried out) but there is no restriction on either Obama changing his mind or the next president (probably Mitt Romney), running with it.

Just as thousands of US marines, drones and all, are set to descend on Australia!

Oh fuck.
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January 3, 2012 10:09pm
Weihana

Pollywog,

If you’re referring to the “altering attitudes” memo, the phrase I kept hearing in my head while reading was “be happy with what you’ve got”. Those of us who live in the west are among the richest in the world, even when considered relatively poor by comparison to others in our own society. I do not expect those in emerging economies such as China and India not to hope for the same prosperity that we presently enjoy and this will of course put more pressure on natural resources. But this does not mean we need to reject material wealth as a measure of happiness or something worthy of pursuit. What we need to do is figure out how we can make use of our resources in a sustainable way and by getting governments to invest more in basic scientific research which underpins all major advancements in modern society. We need not reject consumerism and we should not reject it because it is what motivates us all to dream of better things and to work towards the goals that we set for ourselves.
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January 3, 2012 10:19pm
Fletch

re: the Libra thing – I posted on handmirror, but had it deleted, probably because of transphobia (lol, yes, “transphobia” – funny how liberals make up these words).
Anyway, the below is what I posted originally

—

I don’t mean to offend the transgender community either, but dressing up as a woman does not make you female. A huge part of what it means to be female is the ability to bear and nurture offspring. That is one of the things that make male and female different and which is reflected in the anatomy of the female, and yes, having a period is a sign or symptom of same. It’s part of the identity of being female.

It doesn’t make women better or worse than men, but they are different: men cannot bear children, and having surgery to change your ‘parts’ will not give you a womb or ovaries. Perhaps one of the reasons that the ad caused offence is that it pokes fun at the differences that are real, and perhaps it’s something that the transgendered feel touchy about – the fact they they can never identify fully as being female, nor experience being female past the surface veneer of the look and body parts. You can remove a cold water faucet and replace it with one that says ‘Hot’, but behind the wall the plumbing is the same and you’ll still only get cold water when you turn on the tap.
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January 3, 2012 10:22pm
dime

luc – only assholes get detained like that so dont worry about it.. oh wait
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January 3, 2012 10:23pm
Keeping Stock

@Viking2 – 7.33pm- having read the decision today in the case of Ambrose vs The Attorney-General, it’s fair to say that Peters is talking through his arsehole again. Ambrose took a case against the A-G and lost; all power to the Crown for applying to recover the costs.
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January 3, 2012 10:32pm
Luc Hansen

Fletch

I would have thought “transgenderphobia” would be more accurate, or maybe “trannyphobia,” and, although you may not know this, words get invented all the time.

Your post was a clearcut case of whateverphobia you like!

Are you scared of the dark?
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January 3, 2012 10:42pm
pollywog

But this does not mean we need to reject material wealth as a measure of happiness or something worthy of pursuit

and yet all the virtues we hold dear were exhibited by people who advocated for less material wealth as a means to happiness and fulfilment.

rich man through the eye of a needle and finding the middle way through noble suffering is mostly what i get from that memo. That and wasteful gov’t subsidies propping up failed ideology just to maintain the status quo at all costs.

As it relates to NZ as opposed to Germany, it’s fairly obvious John Key doesn’t want to deal with any of the future shit. He’d rather pass the buck to the next generation and try to secure his continued revenue stream in a diminishing market by selling off powercos to himself and his mates while subsidising back assward industries like roads of national significance and irrigating cow fields.

All the while not giving a fuck about the social and environmental cost. Aspire to be rich like him or be miserable in poverty and if you point out the inequality you’re just envious…yeah yeah play us another tune eh ? that ones fucking tedious.

I think in the long term history will judge Key as a gutless coward who could shoulda woulda but lacked the balls to. Hopefully Shearer with his altruistic backstory and clean, green and clever credo might be more courageous…

…we’ll see
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January 3, 2012 11:02pm
MT_Tinman

V2, 20:07, you started off quite well then, about the time men went to the pub at 15:30 (instead of the more honest 17:00) and left, pissed at 18:15 to walk/cycle home (driving was for the rich) you lost it big time.

The rest, in fact, is pure crap!

Big Bruv, I agree, I’d rather live now than then – no matter when “then” is – although being a teenager in the mid-late 60s was, looking back, fucking great.
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January 3, 2012 11:09pm
Scott Chris

Weihana says:- “Do such statistics exist which show women are paid less than men despite equal experience, qualifications and proficiency?”

Yes. Here’s one (bit old) source:

➡ “Using Current Population Survey (CPS) data for 1979 and 1995 and controlling for education, experience, personal characteristics, parental status, city and region, occupation, industry, government employment, and part-time status, Yale University economics professor Joseph G. Altonji and the United States Secretary of Commerce Rebecca M. Blank found that only about 27% of the gender wage gap in each year is explained by differences in such characteristics.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Fletch

Yes, your hand mirror post was quite innocuous imo. They have a very different cultural outlook there compared to your average schmo, and you have to be very careful not to come across as patronizing or intolerant. They will not tolerate intolerance (ironically), so I disagree with you that they are liberal.

When I post there it feels a little like a Japanese tea ceremony. You’re never quite sure which protocol you might have breached….
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January 3, 2012 11:18pm
Falafulu Fisi

Cha said…
Turing worked as part of the team that cracked the Enigma code at Bletchley Park, and went on to help create the world’s first modern computer.

Great work there from Turing, but the work of all-round computer-scientist/physicist/mathematician/economist Joh von Neumann was crucial in winning WW2 with his involvement in the Manhattan Project. The monte-carlo algorithm which is pervasive in science/engineering of today was a code-name used by Prof. Neumann & members of the Manhattan Project because of the top secret nature of their work. He (von Neumann) was also instrumental in the design of the world’s first modern computer.
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January 3, 2012 11:22pm
Fletch

Here are some snippets by Robery R Reilly that really put in a nutshell the reasons for our culture of vice (italics mine) –

In The Ethics Aristotle wrote, “men start revolutionary changes for reasons connected with their private lives.” This is also true when revolutionary changes are cultural. What might these “private” reasons be, and why do they become public in the form of revolutionary changes? The answer to these questions lies in the intimate psychology of moral failure.

For any individual, moral failure is hard to live with because of the rebuke of conscience. Habitual moral failure, what used to be called vice, can be lived with only by obliterating conscience through rationalization. When we rationalize, we convince ourselves that heretofore forbidden desires are permissible. We advance the reality of the desires over the reality of the moral order to which the desires should be subordinated. In our minds we replace the reality of moral order with something more congenial to the activity we are excusing. In short, we assert that bad is good.

[…]

Most people recover from their rationalizations when remorse and reality set back in. But when morally disordered acts become the defining centerpiece of one’s life, vice can permanently pervert reason. Entrenched moral aberrations then impel people to rationalize vice not only to themselves but to others as well. Thus rationalizations become an engine for revolutionary change that will affect society as a whole.

The power of rationalization drives the culture war, gives it its particular revolutionary character, and makes its advocates indefatigable. It may draw its energy from desperation, but it is all the more powerful for that. Since failed rationalization means self-recrimination, it must be avoided at all cost. For this reason, the differences over which the culture war is being fought are not subject to reasoned discourse. Persons protecting themselves by rationalizing are interested not in finding the truth, but in maintaining the illusion that allows them to continue their behavior. For them to succeed in this, everyone must accede to their rationalization. This is why revolutionary change is required. The necessity for self-justification requires the complicity of the whole culture. Holdouts cannot be tolerated because they are potential rebukes. The self-hatred, anger, and guilt that a person possessed of a functioning conscience would normally feel from doing wrong are redirected by the rationalization and projected upon society as a whole (if the society is healthy), or upon those in society who do not accept the rationalization.

The homosexual movement’s rationalization is far more widely advanced in its claims. According to Jeffrey Levi, former executive director for the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, “We (homosexuals)_ are no longer seeking just a right to privacy and a right to protection from wrong. We have a right – as heterosexuals have already – to see government and society affirm our lives.” Since only the act of sodomy differentiates an active homosexual from a heterosexual, homosexuals want “government and society” to affirm that sodomy is morally equivalent to the marital act. “Coming out of the closet” can only mean an assent on the level of moral principle to what would otherwise be considered morally disordered.

And so it must be. If you are going to center your public life on the private act of sodomy, you had better transform sodomy into a highly moral act. If sodomy is a moral disorder, it cannot be legitimately advanced on the legal or civil level. On the other hand, if it is a highly moral act, it should serve as the basis for marriage, family (adoption), and community. As a moral act, sodomy should be normative. If it is normative, it should be taught in our schools as a standard. In fact, homosexuality should be hieratic: active homosexuals should be ordained as priests. All of this is happening. It was predictable. The homosexual cause moved naturally from a plea for tolerance to cultural conquest. How successful that conquest has been can be seen in the poverty of the rhetoric of its opponents. In supporting the Defense of Marriage Act, the best one congressman could do was to say, “America is not yet ready for homosexual marriage,” as if we simply need a decent interval to adjust ourselves to its inevitable arrival.

Whole Article – http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/ReillyCultureVice.php
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January 3, 2012 11:37pm
pollywog

Big Bruv, I agree, I’d rather live now than then – no matter when “then” is – although being a teenager in the mid-late 60s was, looking back, fucking great.

and what sort of future would you have your kids live in ?

…cos thats what we need to be proactively working towards, not blindly reacting to, lurching from crisis to crisis, either manufactured or real.

Where, beyond the empty rhetoric is John Key’s plan to enact his vision of a brighter future ? Exactly what is the vision and the brighter future ?

Was it just lip service being paid to consumers to buy votes with and maintain the status quo ? Not so much about kicking the tyres, as stopping the wheels from falling off while he’s in the driver’s seat ?
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January 3, 2012 11:38pm
MT_Tinman

FF, I find your assertion that the Manhattan Project was crucial to winning WWII surprising given that two of the three Axis powers had already surrendered when the “A” bomb was first employed and most historians of the time admit that Japan was ready to follow suit.

The bomb, the result of the Manhattan Project, may have accelerated Japan’s surrender but “crucial” to that surrender it wasn’t.
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January 3, 2012 11:41pm
Falafulu Fisi

Weihana asked? “Do such statistics exist which show women are paid less than men despite equal experience, qualifications and proficiency?”

Are you asking for a survey or a peer review analysis? You know the difference, don’t you? If you mean a survey, then how can you trust non-rigorous survey? If you mean peer review, then I thought you don’t need one as you clearly stated here from GD thread of 14th Dec, 2011? Here is what you said.

Falafulu asked Weihana…
So, do you have a pointer to any publication/s which states clearly what you said above ? Again, did that assertion of yours just materialized in your head from thin air or not?

Weihana replied to Falafulu…
I do not require a citation in order to make an argument which is justified by its own logical construction and based on common observation.

Why do you require a citation for? Why do you need to find out if there is statistics exist which show women are paid less ? I thought that all you need is some logical construction based on your common sense as you replied to me on the GD of 14th, Dec? Why not use that common sense of yours then, rather than asking for statistics? I thought that common sense says that men always get more pay than women with the same experience?

Ding Dong?
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January 3, 2012 11:56pm
Fletch

Tinman, it would have taken the lives of many, many Allied soldiers (some say up to half a million) to get the same result.
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January 3, 2012 11:59pm
Griff

There is more opportunity now for woman woman have made an impact at all levels in this country
NZ has always been progressive in this regard There are no longer gender specific rolls. My mechanic is a chick!
It is not unknown for men to be in relationships were the woman is the sole or main breed winner.
This cultural shift has made feminism obsolete for most.
This leaves only man hating lesbians who identify as feminists
The lower casts still have a sexist viewpoint as in a woman is an object to posses.
For the rest the cost of separation reinforces that woman are more than chattels.

reid

You poor old conservative has the whole world passed you by.
left you stranded in the rest home of obsolescence

We have no desire to fit back into your world

We have all found nice comfortable holes..
Not just forced to fit into your square one.
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January 4, 2012 12:02am
Fletch

Jason Mattera has a bit about this “gender pay difference” in his book, ‘Obama Zombies: How the Liberal Machine Brainwashed My Generation’
(Link to below excerpt on Google Books – http://bit.ly/rVQC5o )

I like the bit about how Obama is complaining that women don’t get equal pay, yet it is McCain who pays his women more than Obama does…lol

The reasons for pay difference make perfect sense.

ps, in the text B.H.O stands for Barrack Hussien Obama

SO NOW WE move on to the second economic lie the liberal machine uses to hypnotize future Obama Zombies–the evil, nefarious “wage gap” between men and women. Have you heard that women make seventy-seven cents to every dollar a man makes? It’s been the liberal line for a while now. During the election, B.H.O. ran a TV ad in battleground states specifically targeting women, hyping up the inequity in pay between the sexes. The ad starts off by saying how many women work to support their families but are paid only seventy-seven cents to the dollar of their male counterparts. In the background we see women in professional attire and women in hard hats. The ad then accuses John McCain of not understanding our economy since he opposed a law that guaranteed equal pay for equal work.

While on the stump in New Mexico, B.H.O. said this:

The choice could not be clearer. It starts with equal pay. Sixty-two percent of working women in America earn half or more of their family’s income. But women still earn 77 cents for every dollar earned by men in 2008. You’d think that Washington would be united in its determination to fight for equal pay.

So, are women really paid less than men? Yes, it is true that men tend to earn more than women, but don’t assume it’s gender discrimination. Let’s walk through a scenario: If a business could really get the same quality of work from women for the same job at such a discounted rate, why wouldn’t employers hire all women? It would be bad business to keep all men on hand. The smart employers would drop their men and swoop up all the women for a discounted price. There’s no way other businesses could compete. So perhaps there are other differences that account for the pay gap between men and women.

Cait Murphy, an editor at Fortune, blew the phony wage gap myth out of the water, noting that men and women get paid differently because they’re engaging in different lifestyle choices that affect pay scales. Murphy, who is a woman, cited peer- reviewed research done by another woman, June O’Neill, an economist who served as director of the Congressional Budget Office under Bill Clinton.As Murphy writes, “What [O’Neill] found was that women are much more likely over the course of their lives to cut back their hours or quit work altogether than men, for issues involving the family.”11

Women’s lifestyle choices matter when it comes to full-time employment because “you go part-time or take years out of the labor force, that has an effect on earnings down the line, due to loss of seniority or missed promotions.”It has nothing to do with sexism. Murphy argues that “of women aged 25-44 with young children, more than a third were out of the labor force; of those women who did have jobs, 30% worked part-time.” Again, this has considerable effects when one is moving in and out of the labor force, as many wages take into account seniority of service. Moreover, getting promotions is often a function of years served and experience gained.”All told,” says Murphy, “women are more than twice as likely to work part-time as men and over the course of their lifetimes, work outside the home for 40% fewer years than men. That accounts for a significant chunk of the pay gap.”But that’s not all. There’s also something, um, a bit more understated, but very important in determining wage factors. Murphy continues:

Despite the many advances the women’s movement has brought the U.S., what it hasn’t done, thank heavens, is make men and women the same. The simple fact is–and there is nothing nasty or conspiratorial about it–the sexes continue to choose different avenues of study and different types of jobs.Here’s an illustrative example. The college majors with the top starting salaries, according to the National Association of Colleges and Employers, are: chemical engineering (almost $60,000), computer engineering, electrical engineering, industrial engineering, mechanical engineering. Men make up about 80% of engineering majors. Women predominate among liberal arts majors–whose salaries start at a little morethan $30,000. Putting it all together . . . these differences–in choice of work, years in the workforce, and hours of work–could account for as much as 97.5% of the differences in pay between men and women.

Other differences? Men are more likely to work more hours than women; men are more likely to take hazardous jobs than women are, which is why more men are truck drivers, firefighters, police officers, construction workers, flight engineers, and coal miners than are women. And guess what? Dangerous jobs equal higher pay than, say, secretarial jobs. Again, it’s all about choices.Here’s what the liberal machine will never tell its dronelike youth Zombies: The “pay gap” for women shrinks to ninety-eight cents for every dollar earned by men, after factoring in work experience, education, and occupation.12 And women in their twenties in big cities, including New York and Dallas, are making nearly 20 percent more than men in their twenties.13

You go, girls! In some categories, one researcher found, the starting salaries for women as investment bankers and dietitians, for instance, were considerably higher than men’s.14 Is there actual discrimination in some cases? I’m sure that occurs. But the beauty of the free market is that the company that discriminates for the sake of discrimination will be bad-mouthed and the wronged employee can also go to a competitor. Moreover, the employee can sue.But here’s the grandest irony of all this leftist silliness. Did you know that while B.H.O. was a United States senator he paid his female staffers less than his male ones? Obama’s female employees made on average seventy-eight cents for every dollar a man earned. In real numbers, women brought home an average salary of $44,953.21, which was $12,472 less than the $57,425 average salary that the then-senator paid men. It gets better. McCain’s female staffers not only earned 24 percent more on average than Obama’s gals, but they also earned more than McCain’s male employees.15

Were the women less qualified in Obama’s office than the men? I have no clue. Whatever the reason, McCain closed the “gender gap” without the force of government.Oh, and here’s another inconvenient truth: women’s wages grew more during conservative administrations than liberal ones. In fact, the administrations of Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and George W. Bush had higher “labor market progress for women” compared to the administrations of Clinton and Carter. For instance, women’s “annual wage growth relative to men’s” for the Reagan administration was 1.6 percent, compared to 0.21 percent for Clinton.16Moral of the story? Liberals’ economic lies have lobotomized my generation
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January 4, 2012 12:03am
Falafulu Fisi

Tinman, perhaps the Manhattan project was vital for the final stage of the war but not crucial.
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January 4, 2012 12:05am
bereal

Luc Hansen,

or one of the very worstest sickestism ones of all,
‘Nudistismophobia’
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January 4, 2012 12:12am
Weihana

Scott chris,

“Using Current Population Survey (CPS) data for 1979 and 1995 and controlling for education, experience, personal characteristics, parental status, city and region, occupation, industry, government employment, and part-time status, Yale University economics professor Joseph G. Altonji and the United States Secretary of Commerce Rebecca M. Blank found that only about 27% of the gender wage gap in each year is explained by differences in such characteristics.”

Notwithstanding that you have provided the statistics i asked for, i still have a problem with the assumption that the unexplained gap is discrimination that can be addressed by government. I suspect the biological differences between the genders is not limited to sport. The egalitarian premise seems flawed to me though i still accept discrimination occurs and can explain the gap to some extent.

I agree that discrimination occurs, but i dont believe the differences between the genders is limited to sport and physical activities. I agree with reid’s premise that there are other fundamental biological differences that even influence how we think and therefore a statistical average may reflect these intrinsic differences. Given the traditional evolutionary role of men as hunters and providers of income for their family, tribe etc it should not be surprising that they display an advantage in a competitive market.

Even if the unexplained gap was all discrimintion i’m not sure what more the government could do to curb it especially if it’s unintentional discrimination
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January 4, 2012 2:16am
Weihana

Pollywog,

All the while not giving a fuck about the social and environmental cost. Aspire to be rich like him or be miserable in poverty and if you point out the inequality you’re just envious…yeah yeah play us another tune eh ? that ones fucking tedious.

On the one hand you talk of being happy living with less and then you complain about poverty and inequality. The impoverished of the world are not going to live in prosperity unless they develop their economies and use natural resources in the process. Rich westerners consuming less is not going to make them richer and it’s not going to make westerners better off either.
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January 4, 2012 2:42am
Weihana

Falafulu,

Why do you require a citation for? Why do you need to find out if there is statistics exist which show women are paid less ? I thought that all you need is some logical construction based on your common sense as you replied to me on the GD of 14th, Dec? Why not use that common sense of yours then, rather than asking for statistics? I thought that common sense says that men always get more pay than women with the same experience?

The issue was whether the pay gap was explained by matters that deserve being addressed. The wage gap is a common observation, its precise causes are debateable.
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January 4, 2012 2:52am
Weihana

Fletch,

Jason Mattera… in his book, ‘Obama Zombies: How the Liberal Machine Brainwashed My Generation’

Lovely title. A man after Ann Coulter’s own heart.
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January 4, 2012 3:05am
big bruv

“Lovely title. A man after Ann Coulter’s own heart.”

Coulter is a lady who I find bloody hard to take seriously.

Her debating style seems to consist of abuse references to the sky fairy, I just cannot take anybody seriously who thinks that God should have a major part in our education system and that the bible is an integral part of government.
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January 4, 2012 6:25am
Viking2

MT_Tinman (1,631) Says:
January 3rd, 2012 at 11:09 pm

V2, 20:07, you started off quite well then, about the time men went to the pub at 15:30 (instead of the more honest 17:00) and left, pissed at 18:15 to walk/cycle home (driving was for the rich) you lost it big time.

Ah no, many early start workers finished at 3 pm and headed for the pub.

The rest, in fact, is pure crap!

Whatever you beleive will always be right in your head. That doesn’t make it right or true.
Everything I said is exactly correct and if you want to bother doing some research you will find it so.

But I don’t expect you will. That would entail you having to correct your attitudes and swallow your pride and apologise for being so ignorant.
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January 4, 2012 7:07am
Viking2

Lost a digital camera?
Here’s the place to look.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/gadgets/6199363/Snapped-camera-thieves-meet-their-match
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January 4, 2012 7:10am
pollywog

The impoverished of the world are not going to live in prosperity unless they develop their economies and use natural resources in the process. Rich westerners consuming less is not going to make them richer and it’s not going to make westerners better off either.

it’s more about redefining propserity so it becomes measured less by rich western standards that even the west can’t maintain anymore, and more by the collective well being of society as a global whole.

i do believe consuming less will make one happier and by that, better off.
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January 4, 2012 8:15am
Scott Chris

Weihana says:- “Even if the unexplained gap was all discrimintion i’m not sure what more the government could do to curb it especially if it’s unintentional discrimination”

Awareness is probably the most important thing. Most OECD countries have anti-discrimination legislation in place, but its effectiveness relies on the employee knowing what their entitlement is. Men seem better at knowing their market worth and more forthright in asking for it.
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January 4, 2012 8:23am
Scott Chris

Anne Coulter’s personality type is summed up nicely in this extract:

➡ “During an interview by host Bob McKeown, Coulter said, “Canada used to be…one of our most…most loyal friends, and vice versa. I mean, Canada sent troops to Vietnam.” McKeown contradicted her with, “No, actually Canada did not send troops to Vietnam.”

Coulter justified her statement by referring to the thousands of Canadians who served in the American armed forces during the Vietnam era, either because they volunteered or because they were living in the USA during the war years and got drafted.”
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January 4, 2012 8:36am
Elaycee

V2 says: “When Muldoon and the National Party had more controlls on everyday purchasing than they could control. RRP price schemes that eveyone know how to rort. yep, that was the progressive National Party.” And then: “Everything I said is exactly correct and if you want to bother doing some research you will find it so.”

Actually, not quite. Warren Freer (Minister of Trade and Industry in the 1974 Labour Government) introduced the MRP (Maximum Retail Price scheme – including the compulsion to place a MRP shield on all NZ manufactured items), rather than National.

Nowadays we just have ‘Recommended Retail Prices’ rather than maximums.

FIFY
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January 4, 2012 8:56am
Fletch

I just cannot take anybody seriously who thinks that God should have a major part in our education system and that the bible is an integral part of government.

Um, Western (Judeo Christian) government is based on the precepts of the Bible. You only have to look at the Founding Fathers in America.

eg,

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

“Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God … What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be.”
–Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.
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January 4, 2012 10:01am
Fletch

ps, anyone wanting to know where Law (as we know it) came from should read Law and Revolution: The Formation of the Western Legal Tradition, by Harold J Berman. It is the go to book.
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January 4, 2012 10:24am
pollywog

I just cannot take anybody seriously who thinks that God should have a major part in our education system and that the bible is an integral part of government.

I cannot take anyone seriously who doesn’t, because to not acknowledge God in education and gov’t is to throw away the history of education and government.
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January 4, 2012 10:44am
Weihana

Scott chris,

Coulter justified her statement by referring to the thousands of Canadians who served in the American armed forces during the Vietnam era, either because they volunteered or because they were living in the USA during the war years and got drafted.”

Reminds me of when she claimed that the US bombed egypt during last year’s revolution when she appeared on bill maher’s real time.
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January 4, 2012 1:24pm

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