General Debate 19 January 2012

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Pauleastbay

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/im-a-hero-not-a-coward-says-costa-concordia-captain-francesco-schettino/story-e6freuy9-1226247736652

I’m loving this guy, he has to become a politician – hugely thick skinned and totally removed from reality.
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January 19, 2012 8:10am
Scott Chris

Aussi Afganistan-Based Troops Costing $1.3million Per Year Each:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10779608

Wonder what ours cost….
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January 19, 2012 8:17am
immigant

Scott Chris

Oh my GOD!!! WHo the Hell cares?!
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January 19, 2012 8:20am
calendar girl

Well done to the Government for trying to drive a 4-week target for the commencement of chemotherapy and radiotherapy treatment for patients diagnosed as suffering with cancer. For too long cancer patients have waited endless weeks beyond that time to start such critical treatment. It is a heartless reaction to serious illness, and an inhumane standard on the part of the state.

Despite impediments raised in some DHB management circles, Tony Ryall must insist that his objective be a non-negotiable priority, achieved within a defined timeframe, just as he has done successfully in reducing waiting times in hospital Emergency Departments and for elective surgery. It has been shown that management’s concerted will to achieve what Ryall requires is generally far more effective in practical terms than calls for more public money to be thrown at a problem.

In a discussion on an elderly relative, my GP told me recently that waiting times for cancer chemotherapy and radiotherapy have become the major reason in recent years for retired people to hold onto health insurance that would otherwise be unnecessary for their circumstances.
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January 19, 2012 8:35am
joana

British Citizens will soon be able to identify ”parent one” and ”parent two” instead of their father and mother , and decline to identify themselves as male or female on their passports. The changes are designed to cater for transsexuals and homosexuals. The changes have been made in response to lobbying from homosexual rights group Stonewall. America has already made a similar change to its passport application form.
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January 19, 2012 8:43am
Keeping Stock

I see that Darien Fenton has defied David Shearer after he said that Labour would be staying out of the PoAL/MUNZ wrangle. But whoever would have guessed that the Maritime Union chaps were hypocrites?

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2012/01/darien-breaks-ranks.html
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January 19, 2012 8:46am
flipper

So the usual suspoects are again on the prowl. Rally to support fedllow unionists in their fight agaiunst gthde rapacious capitalists – well, so they are reported as saying.

But the reality is: Those poor, down-trodden “unionists” work just 28 hours of the 43 hours per week for which they are paid by this Labour-controlled (worker?) / Auckland City owned, company returning the owners, Auckland City Ratepayers, just 2 % pa.

USSR economics 101.

Even “Chrissie the Wussie” should be able to see the sense in that!
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January 19, 2012 8:52am
iMP

Joana, Tim Barnett works or is CEO of Brit Stonewall, before and after he parachuted in to NZ and became MP for Christchurch Central almost on the tarmac, where he advocated obsessively for gay politics, drug reform and legalizing prostitution (which the police are trying to clean up on Manchester St at the moment). Timmy will be behind this change to Passports.
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January 19, 2012 8:52am
Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left

Does anyone know what the guy who is walking through Wellington with the HELP sign is on about? I didn’t get close enough to ask.
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January 19, 2012 9:13am
Manolo

So much for this “caring” family: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/6279424/Drinks-nap-preceded-13-year-olds-fatal-drive
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January 19, 2012 9:18am
joana

Thanks very much for that iMP
It was Helen’s Clark’s policies which let Barnett in to NZ in the first place..He came in with one boyfriend and left with another. The first boyfriend has since been up on fraud charges.
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January 19, 2012 9:31am
Longknives

Manolo- I was just reading that article. I see his uncle (obviously part of the usual ‘supportive whanau’ bullshit) is claiming the kid wasn’t drunk, yet the Coroners report states he had swilled five RTDs!
Someone isn’t telling the truth….
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January 19, 2012 9:35am
Manolo

This bugger to pay for his quick, almost flammable, temper: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10779491
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January 19, 2012 9:42am
trout

Heard Twyford on Radio NZ this morning trying to run a Labour line on the POL dispute. No specifics mind, and no grasp of the facts. Just waffle about the failure of the ‘competitive’ model; and a need to reduce the number of ports (none nominated and no admission that this would cost jobs). A policy, incidentally, that would go down like a lead balloon in the provinces. Restated the line run by the left (Lee in particular) that Ports should somehow price fix and screw the shipping Companies so that wharfies get fat wage packets; this is fairyland stuff. NZ is at the end of the world; totally dependent on trade; we pay whatever it take to get other people’s ships to move our goods. I can see vacillating Labour Government that would
effectively encourage the Union to strike and then create a taxpayer subsidy so that all parties get what they want, just as Muldoon did with the freezing workers. And where did that get us? It was a very expensive way of deferring the inevitable rationalization which occurred anyway.
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January 19, 2012 9:45am
Keeping Stock

@ Longknives and Manolo – I’ve blogged about this today. There are good reasons why it’s illegal to supply alcohol to 13yo’s and why it’s illegal for 13yo’s to drive. But where were the parents through all this? Did they know their boy was getting pissed? Were they happy that he was up drinking until 4am? Who encouraged him to drive (before the night in question)?
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January 19, 2012 9:45am
immigant

I don’t think the guy who punched the cyclist shoudl be charged. It is clear his warrior blood could not tollerate the opressive American colonist mothefucker using his road.
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January 19, 2012 9:46am
Manolo

Keeping Stock @9.45am, not a single disagreement from me. Your questions are very pertinent.
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January 19, 2012 10:42am
david

Anyone want to provide a home for a wheelie Bin full of Green shit?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/6280015/Activists-prepare-to-keep-coal-in-hole
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January 19, 2012 10:59am
Manolo

The stinking Chris Dodd tries to defend SOPA:

Calling the protests a “gimmick” and an “abuse of power”, former Senator Chris Dodd of Connecticut, now the CEO of the Motion Picture Association of America, said in a statement, “It’s a dangerous and troubling development when the platforms that serve as gateways to information intentionally skew the facts to incite their users in order to further their corporate interests,” and called for its supporters to, “stop the hyperbole and PR stunts and engage in meaningful efforts to combat piracy.”
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January 19, 2012 11:00am
Weihana

# joana (979) Says:
January 19th, 2012 at 8:43 am

British Citizens will soon be able to identify ”parent one” and ”parent two” instead of their father and mother , and decline to identify themselves as male or female on their passports. The changes are designed to cater for transsexuals and homosexuals. The changes have been made in response to lobbying from homosexual rights group Stonewall. America has already made a similar change to its passport application form.

Whoopty doo.
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January 19, 2012 11:01am
Weihana

iMP

…advocated obsessively for gay politics, drug reform and legalizing prostitution (which the police are trying to clean up on Manchester St at the moment).

Oh yes, because prostitutes didn’t exist before it was legalized.

I live in close proximity to plenty of prostitutes strutting their “stuff” on K Rd, I rarely see them causing any trouble. I’m more concerned about the drunks who get pissed in the middle of the day and who might wonder out into traffic.
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January 19, 2012 11:08am
Paulus

Am I the only one who objects strongly to between $50milion and $100million being paid to buy Gareth Morgan’s Kiwi Saver account, by poor performing, undercapitalised, Kiwi Bank (Taxpayer money via State owned Post Office).
This is TAXPAYER’S money for crying out loud.
Morgan’s Kiwi Saver peformance has been abysmal.
What a rort.
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January 19, 2012 11:35am
thedavincimode

Paulus

Irrespective of whether you think Morgan is a raving idiot, and I couldn’t possibly comment, if he has actually accumulated $1.5b of funds under management with his bullshit and bluster, that is a very creditable achievement, particularly in light of the funds’ performance. That’s all Kiwibank is likely to be buying and I wouldn’t expect Morgan to be hanging around too long. I expect that fund will be seeing quite a few new faces. The market speculation on pricing will likely reflect the market pricing for funds under management.

That will free him up to spend time lobbying for a tax on capital, an idea that he doesn’t seem to be interesting in attributing to anyone else. Why could that be?
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January 19, 2012 11:57am
Pauleastbay

Vado a bordo, cazzo

I’m going to say this to the wife later and see if she responds better than the captain
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January 19, 2012 12:05pm
Viking2

Pauleastbay (1,838) Says:
January 19th, 2012 at 8:10 am

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/im-a-hero-not-a-coward-says-costa-concordia-captain-francesco-schettino/story-e6freuy9-1226247736652

I’m loving this guy, he has to become a politician – hugely thick skinned and totally removed from reality.

And accoding to the latest news they played the Titanic theme as it went down.

Clown might be his description.

‘Titanic’ theme played as ship capsized
Updated 9:46 AM Thursday Jan 19, 2012

Swiss brothers Yannic and Kevin Sgaga told a newspaper the theme from ‘Titanic’ was playing as the Costa Concordia capsized. Photo / Paramount Home Entertainment

The theme song from the film Titanic is said to have been playing in one of Costa Concordia’s restaurants as the cruise ship began to list.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10779726

Seriously you couldn’t invent this stuff.
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January 19, 2012 12:23pm
nasska

Pauleastbay

…”I’m going to say this to the wife later and see if she responds better than the captain”….

And good luck with that.
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January 19, 2012 12:52pm
Manolo

Anything goes: http://www.drudgereport.com/flash2.htm
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January 19, 2012 1:29pm
joana

Weihana
You do not make any distinction between prostitution and legalized prostitution. Legalized prostitution was only ever an enormous business opportunity for gangs and other people involved in organized crime.. It has also lead to people trafficking and immigration rorts..and then there are the flow on affects of such unscrupulous people having extraordinary amounts of money. Many of the women are prostitutes so they can support drug habits..The whole thing is sordid and did not need to be turned into a so called legitimate industry.
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January 19, 2012 1:37pm
Nookin

Pauleastbay
Remember to duck.
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January 19, 2012 1:38pm
joana

A Black Widow suicide bomber planned a terrorist attack in Central Moscow on New Year’s Eve but was killed when an unexpected text message set off her bomb too early. Winds of Jihad.
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January 19, 2012 1:44pm
Swampy

EQC busy getting themselves in the poo with the media
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/christchurch-earthquake-2011/6279534/EQC-slams-Press-article-as-disappointing

Somehow I do not think Eqc will come out of this smelling of roses.
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January 19, 2012 1:49pm
Hollyfield

Further to the comments by PaulEastBay and Viking2:

Captain: ‘I tripped and fell into life raft’

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10779773
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January 19, 2012 2:11pm
Weihana

Joana,

And what do you base this on?

The effects of the Prostitution Reform Act have been studied and, contrary to your prejudice, The Police Association has indicated that some underage prostitutes (which is still illegal) may have some connection to gang activities but generally only by association (i.e. friends with gang members) and not in a manner where the prostitution is a commercial opportunity for the gang. It is their view that patched gangs do not get involved in prostitution to any great extent because it is high risk with little reward.

As for drug habits the most common reason cited by prostitutes for prostitution was for their financial needs, i.e. housing and other expenses and not drug use. A small minority of prostitutes (16.7%) reported working to facilitate a drug habit. A somewhat larger proportion of street workers, however, report working to fund a drug habit (45.1%).

As for human trafficking your claims look like unsubstantiated gossip. The Prostitution Reform Act did not legalize prostitution for non-residents. While there are some migrants who are working illegally as prostitutes this has no relevance to the Prostitution Reform Act as their activity remains illegal. Indeed if anything they may be subject to exploitation because of their illegal status but I concede this must be weighed against the potential threat of human trafficking if the practice were allowed.

But the fact remains that the Prostitution Reform Act was a sensible way to provide protection to those who work in the sex industry. There is no evidence that the sex industry has increased since its introduction. There is no substantive evidence of significant gang involvement and any such involvement has not changed since its introduction.

With respect joana, you seem to be labouring under misconceptions likely handed down to you from fellow social conservatives. People who have no involvement in the sex industry, do not know people in the sex industry and who base their views on their own bias and moral judgments.

I’m no expert, but I do know a few people who have worked in the sex industry and are involved with the Prostitutes Collective. They do not appear to me to fit your preconceived notion of what it means to be a prostitute. Does it mean I advocate people sell themselves for cash? No, but the law should protect them if they do and cannot do this if it is an underground and illegitimate practice.

http://www.justice.govt.nz/policy/commercial-property-and-regulatory/prostitution/prostitution-law-review-committee/publications/plrc-report/documents/report.pdf

Edit: Just a note to add that at the time the report was written not one case had breen brought by Immigration New Zealand or the Department of Labour in respect of human trafficking. I think that may have changed since the report was made, but in any case it serves to underscore that human trafficking is not really a significant problem in NZ.
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January 19, 2012 2:41pm
Keeping Stock

@ Hollyfield; I won’t link to it, but I’ve created a Tui billboard in Captain Schettino’s honour…
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January 19, 2012 3:30pm
RightNow

Stumbled upon this cool website http://wheresmytaxes.co.nz/

Government Expenses: $18,626 per capita

Government Incomes: $16,205 per capita
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January 19, 2012 5:09pm
Pete George

The rogue sheep abated quickly, and example of evolving online news stories at Stuff.

But even more odd thing in the second version, a completely unrelated story on mystery sheep offal on the road is appended to a story on sheep loose after a truck crash.
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January 19, 2012 5:12pm
reid

Stumbled upon this cool website http://wheresmytaxes.co.nz/

Note how Treasury (5.73% – $4.7 b) is one of the larger depts, more than Transport even, despite them having very few “front line staff.” In fact, from my experience as a taxpayer using various govt depts over my lifetime, they have precisely zero “front line staff.”

So given politicians of all stripes and the media constantly go on and on and on and on about nothing but how critical “front line staff” are and how any cuts from politicians will never affect “front line staff” but will rather produce even more “front line staff,” how come no-one, ever, mentions Treasury?

WTF are they doing anyway, with that $4.7b? How many staff do they have? How does that work out to per staff member, compared to other depts? Have they heard of the story about the goose and the gander? How about “leading by example?” Or are those principles applicable only when one is talking about any dept other than Treasury?
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January 19, 2012 5:36pm
joana

Weihana
I was helping prostitutes on the streets of Wgtn most likely before you were born..I had a close relation who worked as a prostitute both here and in Australia and quite a number of friends who were ex prostitutes and ex heroin addicts, so your stereotyping of me is way off.
I am not saying I am older and wiser than you but it does seem likely that I am older and much more cynical than you..I wouldn’t give any credence to anything associated with Greg O’Connor. I also have almost zero faith in any govt dept. There are rules and regualations everywhere you look in NZ but many of them are never enforced. With the current govt’s cuts in staff , even fewer of these rules and regs will be enforced.
Overseas reports have confirmed human trafficking in NZ and many have confirmed the activities of organized crime.
I lived in a South East Asian country for a number of years. It was , at that time the number one destination in the world for the trafficking of women..They weren’t being brought there for their needlework skills.
My close friends and I refer to NZ as” the land of the endless whitewashes..” That is all we see , one whitewash after another. I am pleased for you that you do not seem to be cynical.
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January 19, 2012 5:37pm
nasska

reid

Click on the Treasury segment & it brings up another detailed pie chart. Most of the Treasury expenditure relates to the cost of crown debt servicing & Government Super liabilities.

It does, however, reveal that in excess of $52 mill. relates to the cost of providing policy advice. Going on the quality of the advice given I would suggest that it represents very poor value to the taxpayer.
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January 19, 2012 6:07pm
nasska

The owners of the Costa Concordia have stated that their next captain will be guaranteed not to hit anything…….David Tua starts work on Monday.
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January 19, 2012 6:32pm
kowtow

How can it cost $52 million to tell government it must live within it’s means?
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January 19, 2012 6:35pm
Weihana

joana,

…so your stereotyping of me is way off.

Well I do apologize for that. But cynicism is not an excuse to reject a well researched report compiled by a capable team of people with adequate credentials to their name. That says to me that your mind is closed on the matter and you are unable to accept evidence which may contradict your preconceived ideas.

I wouldn’t deny that prostitution attracts some people who are desperate and who are drug addicts. But it also seems to attract people who are very much willing participants and who do not have a problem with what they do, even if some other people like to judge them harshly and view them as less than human (not saying that’s you).

But ultimately it’s about balancing the liberty of adults to partake in or provide commercial sexual services against the exploitation which can conceivably occur in the industry. But whatever actual harm exists it seems to me that in no way can prohibition alleviate that harm and it does not appear, as indicated in the Law Review Committee report, that law reform has increased any measurable harm. In that case I see no reason to limit the freedom of people to partake in the industry at their choosing and no reason to deny to sex workers government regulation that is afforded to other workers.

As far as trafficking is concerned the evidence seems to suggest that it is very limited and in any case is not protected under the Prostitution Reform Act.
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January 19, 2012 6:56pm
reid

But ultimately it’s about balancing the liberty of adults to partake in or provide commercial sexual services against the exploitation which can conceivably occur in the industry.

Interesting you don’t mention balancing the rights of families not to have brothels setup next door to them or opposite their children’s schools, but that’s not important, is it. After all, if they have the temerity to object, why that’s discwimination, isn’t it. They’re just lucky the law doesn’t provide prison sentences for objectors, aren’t they. After all, what rights do such bastards have? How dare they.
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January 19, 2012 7:22pm
nasska

Negotiations between union members and their employer were
at an impasse. The union denied that their workers were
flagrantly abusing their contract’s sick-leave provisions.

One morning at the bargaining table, the company’s chief
negotiator held aloft the morning edition of the newspaper,
“This man,” he announced, “called in SICK yesterday!”
There on the sports page, was a photo of the supposedly ill
employee, who had just won a local golf tournament with an
excellent score.

The silence in the room was broken by a union negotiator.
“Wow,” he said. “Think of what kind of score he could have
had if he hadn’t been sick!”
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January 19, 2012 8:02pm
reid

nasska, excellent. I love it when its topical.
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January 19, 2012 8:14pm
Pauleastbay

Anyway isn’t about time those useless pricks in Parliament got back to work and started Parliamenting?

Rhetorical I known , they’ve have been flat working in their electorates , but hold on fuck all of them have electorates .

Our system is definitely the best.
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January 19, 2012 8:27pm
Manolo

One less in the race: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/19/breaking-perry-to-drop-out-thursday/
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January 20, 2012 5:06am
Manolo

The gloves are off: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/exclusive-gingrich-lacks-moral-character-president-wife/story?id=15392899#.TxhJOvnsbPo
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January 20, 2012 5:48am
joana

Weihana
You sanitise the whole thing..I don’t object to the women.As I said I used to help them in the days when they constantly had to avoid police and go to court etc. My objection is to the owners of the brothels..the Chinese madams etc who came here very soon after it was legalized. Many organized girls to come here from Hong Kong , Malaysia and other Asian countries on tourist visas to ”work here” so automatically just there , there was an increase in crime and exploitation..the easy money is then laundered etc..more crime..There are several of these joints on the other side of my suburb.
There has recently been a lot of trouble in Manchester St and a joint meeting between CHCH and AKland city councils to try to bring about another law change so many people are not happy with the changes you seem to be happy about.
Greg O’Connor is an old dope head from way back and he often sounds like one when he speaks on TV.
As I have already said , I have little faith in any govt report.
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January 20, 2012 8:43am
Weihana

joana,

As I understand it, people aren’t happy because, due to the Earthquake, the prostitutes have moved towards the residential end of Manchester Street. The same might happen in Auckland if the Karanagahape Road prostitutes moved into Ponsonby. Different areas have different expectations of what their neighbourhood should look like.

And you are right many people aren’t happy, that doesn’t necessarily mean their objections are valid and that they have been harmed in some way. There is certainly a conflict between the approach of the national government and the local councils. It’s your typical “not in my backyard” attitude that people have towards anything that they feel brings the image of their neighbourhood down. I have some sympathy with regards to opposing street workers because they do provide a negative image not suited to a residential neighbourhood and they often leave used condoms lying around. On the other hand I think it is unreasonable to object to workers who carry out business indoors whether or not that business is located across from a school.

As for asian sex workers coming here and working against the conditions of their visas yes I agree that is occuring. But where is the evidence that it fosters significant crime and exploitation? Or is supposition enough? But in any case the Prostitution Reform Act does not permit it and the compliance branch at INZ routinely takes action against non-resident sex workers. But as for the “several joints” in your suburb, do you actually know the residence status of these women or are you guessing based on their ethnicity?

Fact is you’ve made many assertions but provided little evidence other than casual observation. You reject a comprehensive report out of hand without any reasonable cause other than it’s a “government report”. This shows considerable close mindedness and ignores the fact that the committee is actually made up of people from the community with considerable knowledge and expertise including members nominated by the Prostitutes Collective. You don’t need to have “faith” in them, you just need to have a reasonable basis to reject their conclusions.
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January 20, 2012 10:53am
KiwiGreg

@ nasska “Going on the quality of the advice given I would suggest that it represents very poor value to the taxpayer.”

In my experience it’s not the qualilty of Treasury’s advice, it’s the general failure of government to take it.
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January 20, 2012 11:02am
RightNow

nasska – loved it.

Speaking of sick leave, it seems teachers not only get extraordinarily generous sick leave entitlement but can also accrue their sick leave from year to year, and carry their accruals with them from school to school:

“A teacher’s sick leave accumulates over the years, and ‘follows them’ throughout their career. For instance, if a teacher accumulates 46 days sick leave, has a break from teaching and then returns a few years later, he or she still has that sick leave entitlement. If that teacher then moves to a new school, he or she takes that sick leave entitlement with them.”
http://www.minedu.govt.nz/NZEducation/EducationPolicies/Schools/SchoolOperations/EmploymentConditionsAndEvaluation/TeacherPayAndConditions/LeaveEntitlements.aspx

Nice conditions for teachers, but potential money pits for schools. Imagine a small school hiring a new teacher and then having to give them 6 months off paid sick leave.
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January 20, 2012 11:02am
Weihana

reid,

Interesting you don’t mention balancing the rights of families not to have brothels setup next door to them or opposite their children’s schools, but that’s not important, is it.

I do not consider that a right. If a person wants to run a business in a properly zoned area then “families” (i.e. conservatives) have no right to dictate to them how they use their property just because it offends them just as I would have no right to tell a church next door to a school to bugger off because they offend me and I worry that children might be led astray by their mystical nonsense. Well actually they don’t offend me because unlike conservatives, I mind my own business and keep to myself.

After all, if they have the temerity to object, why that’s discwimination, isn’t it. They’re just lucky the law doesn’t provide prison sentences for objectors, aren’t they. After all, what rights do such bastards have? How dare they.

Calm down, you are being ridiculous. They have every right to voice whatever opinion they like even if it is unreasonable and silly. I actually agree with people objecting to street workers who cause a nuisance. But objecting to people using their property in a legal manner to run a legitimate business is unreasonable. It’s funny how conservatives are all about property rights until it’s something they don’t like.
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January 20, 2012 11:05am
F E Smith

In other news, I missed this when it came through on my RSS feed a few days ago, but think I should post it in full now, as a response to those who suggest it is a good idea to make it harder to get legal aid. It is from the wonderful The Defence Brief blog, run by an English defence solicitor:

Yesterday I represented a man accused of criminal damage. I collected the papers from the prosecutor but when I went through them I thought I must have been missing something. He was accused of causing just £40 worth of damage to a piece of plastic on a car, he had no previous convictions and had spent 10-days in prison thus far.

Given that on conviction he was likely to receive a fine in the region of £100 plus costs and £40 compensation for the repair I was pretty surprised that he had been remanded for so long.

When I spoke to him it emerged that he was technically homeless, which in the minds of many magistrates seems to equate with untrustworthy and thus inclined to skip bail. It also turned out that he hadn’t received any legal advice prior to speaking with me, nor had he seen the papers in his case and was thus mostly unaware of the accusation against him.

Yesterday’s hearing was the third listing as the Prison Service failed to produced him for the last hearing and a trial date had already been fixed because of the insistence of magistrates that they must “case manage” at the very first hearing regardless of the circumstances facing them.

Prior to each hearing the prosecutor would have had to read all the papers in the case to prepare. The Prison Service have had to arrange transportation of the prisoner as well as housing and feeding him for 10-days (according to one newspaper that’s a cost of £770 excluding transportation). During each hearing (including the one he didn’t show up for) there would have been a list caller, legal adviser and prosecutor in court. Probation officers had also become involved trying to find a bail hostel to get this man out of prison. Finally, as English was not this man’s first language and his English was not up to understanding the court proceedings there was an interpreter present at all three hearings.

After the hearings the court and CPS administrators would have had to spend time resulting the case and updating the computer records. By the time you factor in the cost of court staff, lighting, heating etc I feel confident in saying that this case has cost the tax payer well over £2,000 and quite possibly more than £3,000.

Yesterday I show up. I had a short chat with the client. I explained the evidence against him and told him where it was supposed to have happened as well as listening to what he had to say. He told me he was drunk and doesn’t remember much at all. But when faced with the (overwhelming) evidence he accepted that he probably had committed the offence and asked to be allowed to change his plea to guilty.

He was sentenced to a £50 fine, deemed served by the time he spent in prison and was told to pay the £40 compensation within 2-weeks.

I don’t really expect that I’ll get paid for this case. But, if the LSC do grant legal aid then my fee will be about £240 (legal aid rates were recently reduced and I’m not sure what the current fee is off the top of my head). This is a standard fee set by the Government. For the sake of that £240 fee at the first hearing we could have saved the costs of locking him up, transporting him and two court hearings. If he’d been introduced to the duty solicitor at the first hearing then there wouldn’t have even been the £240 fee! In that case the case would have probably cost around £500 – £750 including my fee!

Once we have more unrepresented defendants who either cannot or will not pay privately then you will quickly find that the costs of the court system go up overall because nobody is being told to hold their hands up when they clearly have no hope of winning! You’ll also find that if you or a loved one are accused of a crime or are a victim of a crime and have to give evidence then you’ll be waiting for justice for a very very long time as the courts creak over closer to total seizure.
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January 20, 2012 2:50pm
Nookin

Someone in the cream-bun/custard square business did well out of this one.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6289694/She-fleeced-grandmother-then-her-partners-mother
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January 20, 2012 2:56pm
Scott Chris

Kodak on his deathbed (using the pronoun “his” because corporations are legally people in the States)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/world/6287606/Kodak-bankruptcy-action-won-t-affect-New-Zealand)

Paul Simon’s ‘Kodachrome’:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SExsuRIGAlg
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January 20, 2012 3:09pm
alex Masterley

FES,

I had a discussion last evening, over some very nice verdelho, with a colleague who has just surrrendered, or more correctly like me did not apply for a provider contract to the LSA.

His view was that in about 2-3 months there will be a sudden realisation that there are not enough lawyers with provider contracts to make the Legal Aid scheme work, even with the Public Defence scheme taking it’s share of the legal aid case load.

In addition because some providers will have dropped out their ongoing case load will have to be redistributed around the remaining providers. This means there will be any number of applications for adjournments of trial dates in the early part of the year as legally aided people seek new representation.

I suspect that the courts will face an upsurge of self represented litigants as a consequence of the changes being imposed by the LSA and the new fixed fee regime. That will add to cost and to the time it takes to deal with things.

I expect judges of all jurisdictions will just have to get used to that.
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January 20, 2012 3:14pm
F E Smith

alex,

the NZLS has given us the figures, and we have only 299 applicants for senior PC 4 status on legal aid. That is out of 11,000 lawyers. There a lot of PC 1s applying (851), but the vast majority of them will be in small/medium firms that intend them to never actually practise in the area unless a friend or relative of a commercial client gets in trouble.

There are 539 applying for PC 2 and 388 for PC 3. Again, a number of those people will be like some of my mates, used to do it and like to keep up the registration, but don’t really want to continue.

When these new set fees are brought in I suspect you will get a further drop-off of lawyers, realising that they can make better money in other forms of litigation. So I think your friend is correct in his view.

I think the PDS will have to be bigger than anticipated, but I am aware that in at least one of the Auckland offices they manage to prevent that by not filling actual vacancies, meaning the workload is spread among a smaller group of employees.

Of course, if the Sensible Sentencing Trust idea of removing legal aid for people who have more than three convictions is adopted, then the waste will increase exponentially.

EDIT: Scott Chris,

Corporations are legal persons in NZ as well. That is perfectly normal. But they do not have genders, even so.
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January 20, 2012 3:59pm

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