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January 10, 2012 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 10 January 2012

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General Debate

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Manolo

Two despots meet: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/venezuelas-chavez-welcomes-ally-ahmadinejad-000151086.html
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January 10, 2012 8:29am
Pete George

Post-quake rebuild – Christchurch or Dunedin? Or elsewhere? Or not?

Dunedin city councillor Lee Vandervis has kicked off a delicate debate – how much of Christchurch should be rebuilt in Christchurch? And should some of the shaky city be relocated elsewhere in the South Island – Vandervis is proposing Dunedin but obviously there are other southern options.

Individuals and businesses should be free to choose for themselves – as they are – but what about public services that have been ripped out of the rest of the South Island and centralised in Christchurch over the past few decades?

Ironically the Christchurch rebuild may suck business out of the rest of the South Island, attracting tradespeople, people working on infrastructure and companies looking for opportunities offered by the rebuilding.
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January 10, 2012 8:37am
Falafulu Fisi

Scott Chris lectured Bryan Leyland on various topics in climate science over on this thread the other day.

Bryan referenced Dr. Nicola Scafetta’s paper which proposed that global warming is due to empirical astronomical harmonic forcing rather than man-made. The paper is freely downloadable below:

Testing an astronomically-based decadal-scale empirical harmonic climate model versus the IPCC (2007) general circulation climate models

It appeared that Bryan Leyland had just gave Scott Chris a left-hook & upper-cut right hand to the head with his citation of Scafetta’s paper, in which Scott Chris hasn’t made a comment yet on the empirical finding of the paper.

Anyway, I requested Dr. Scafetta’s codes that he used in his paper and he replied that he’s going to send it. He used the open source GNUPLOT package for graphics & regressions and also MS Excel for simple moving averages , etc…. So, I think that anyone who would be interested in his work (scientists or non-scientists, statisticians or non-statisiticians) should be able to request his codes so you can play with it or spread the message of his empirical finding. I intend to make a Java applet of his model and put it on the net.
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January 10, 2012 8:38am
gravedodger

Listened to Mr Parsloe talking to Larry Williams on Newstalk ZB , he just doesn’t get it, does he.
The useless bosses threaten and bully, hello!

Hey Gary its 2012 get out and get some lernin, or are Ports of Tauranga giving you a little envelope, just asking.
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January 10, 2012 8:40am
Linda Reid

Falafulu Fisi – while accepting that the science is never ‘settled’, it seems very clear that the IPCC is following political goals, not scientific goals (which is what it was set up to do) and that there is no catastrophe coming that we need to avoid.
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January 10, 2012 8:50am
joana

Pete
I don’t think anyone in CHCH thinks it is a delicate debate. There has already been letters to the Press complaining about rude and arrogant Vandervis is.
More CHCh news..the council is laying off local workers and giving the contract to I think Palmerston North.
The council is totally dysfunctional. A big protest is planned for Feb 1st , 12 noon outside the Civic centre re pay rise for Marryat. He earns more than Key , Obama etc The local councils were amalgamated 20 years ago hence the total mess..Auckland will be the same in twenty years..It is hard to believe that another ghastly , little short man was able to inflict ”think big” on NZ once again.
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January 10, 2012 8:56am
Pete George

that there is no catastrophe coming that we need to avoid.

There will be a looming catastrophe one day, maybe not in our lifetimes but it’s certain to happen. Shouldn’t we continue various scientific studies and assessments to try and plan for and and if possible avoid or at least mitigate against any impending catastrophe?

Saying there is no problem and there will never be a problem and we shouldn’t bother doing anything is surely far worse than continually considering possibles?
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January 10, 2012 8:57am
Linda Reid

What catastrophe are you predicting? Do you mean the sun will one day blow up? Sure, but there’s nothing we can do about that. We can continue to explore and expand our ability to travel between solar systems so the human race will survive, but we can’t stop the sun from doing what it does.

If you mean the planet is warming up – well yes, it has been ever since the last little ice age it has been warming. But not at any extraordinary rate in comparison with previous warmings. And a warmer world is a good thing – the MWP was a time of prosperity and growth for humans.
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January 10, 2012 9:03am
Scott Chris

Falafulu Fisi says:- “Anyway, I requested Dr. Scafetta’s codes that he used in his paper and he replied that he’s going to send it.”

Good luck with that, but don’t hold your breath. Scafetta won’t release the codes to the scientific community, so his analytical methodology can’t be scrutinized by his peers.

No scientist worth his salt would hide his methods and not subject them to peer review. What’s he hiding?

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18307-sceptical-climate-researcher-wont-divulge-key-program.html
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January 10, 2012 9:05am
Pete George

Linda – Re the planet warming (or cooling) – shouldn’t we at least monitor and try to predict climate changes as best we can though?

A warmer world would be good for some but not for others – increased drought and desert areas could impact severely with the much larger human population.

It’s possible the last ice age killed off neanderthal – isn’t it? Mass extinctions are known to have happened over history – and probably sometimes related to significant changes in climate.
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January 10, 2012 9:17am
Scott Chris

Worth a repost:

➡ “Scientific skepticism is healthy. Yet this isn’t what happens with climate change denial. Skeptics vigorously criticise any evidence that supports man-made global warming and yet unquestioningly embrace any argument, op-ed, blog or study that refutes global warming.”

http://www.skepticalscience.com/

Scafetta’s ‘findings’ are a perfect example of this phenomena. This guy won’t release vital data supporting his theories, which is fucking sacrilege in the scientific world, and yet skeptics unquestioningly accept what he says.

Furthermore, he appears to have no lack of financial backers, which puts paid to the theory that only “warmist” scientists are granted research funding.
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January 10, 2012 9:20am
Falafulu Fisi

Scott, read Scaffetta’s comparison of his method and the IPCC. Look at his paper. It appeared that you have no understanding of science. You talked about trend all day long on the other thread but you have failed to understand that trend is parameter dependent which I pointed you out to.

Two things that IPCC failed which Scaffetta’s managed to succeed.

#1) Reconstruction
#2) Prediction

So, where do you start with the IPCC then? So, why the IPCC model failed in both?
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January 10, 2012 9:30am
flipper

Well, now that all that is out of the system, how about we examine the “benign, sensitive and considerate” MEDIA coverage of the Carterton tragedy.

The Masterton, Carterton, and Greytown areas are essentially rural support towns, with a bit of tourism in Greytown. They are open-hearted folk who treat everyone with respect – well, apart from some rat bags that make “war” on their own.
But on Saturday last the media pack (no bloggers!) descended upon the area like locusts – flesh eating locusts.

Local (apparently APN ) media types joined in the frenzy. But it was left (no pun intended) to TVs one and three to scrape the bottom of the barrel. They camped outside houses, they confronted elderly relatives (there are quite a few, possibly more than 100 in the area, with lurid tales of injuries) awoken suddenly from much needed sleep and so it continued . Residents were forced to turn-off telephones and shut down cell phones (how did they get those unadvertised numbers?). Then officialdom sought to intervene – sotto voce. The Police became concerned and warnings were issued. The locals became agitated and told the TV bimbos what they were, using the vernacular to the ultimate degree. The TV bosses expressed surprise that their 23 year old bimbos , straight from the TV “reporter/presenter” sausage factory, were described by the upset folks as “nothing more than c….”.

All this really says a lot about the state of news gathering and presentation in NZ – all, apparently in the name of competition. The Law Commission Is clearly hinting at a revision of the Press Council / Broadcasting Standards arrangement. The Carterton tragedy may well be the spark that burns some of these self-important twits. Whatever, it is surely time for a clean-up.
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January 10, 2012 9:32am
Pete George

flipper – I don’t know if it’s due to the junior bimbos (and editors) on holiday duty or not but coverage of that tragedy has been worse than the usual bad.

The TV bosses expressed surprise that their 23 year old bimbos…were described by the upset folks as “nothing more than c….”.

Shows how out of touch they are with how many people see them at times. I wonder if the message will be conveyed to the big bosses when they return from their summer holidays.
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January 10, 2012 9:37am
Falafulu Fisi

Scott, I can see your problem here. You read blogs and not peer reviewed. If you read peer reviewed studies then you wouldn’t have pointed to blogs to support your argument.

That new scientist link you pointed to was an earlier claim. Dr Scaffeta released his code to warmists Dr. Benestad and Dr. Gavin Schmidt for their counter argument paper (Solar trends and global warming) in the same year 2009.

Start reading peer reviewed studies and then you can start piece together the various arguments for and against AGW, because when you read a paper (regardless whether it is for or against AGW) the authors also cited other work that they’re trying to refute (whether its for or against). One can get a whole picture of the argument.
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January 10, 2012 9:40am
Fletch

Scott, sceptical science is healthy, yes. But you only have to look at the Climategate and Climategate 2.0 emails to see that the proponents of AGW have developed an “us and them” attitude to the point of marginalising anyone who writes papers that don’t agree with them, and getting editors from scientific magazines fired who publish same.

It isn’t skeptics who are playing games, it is AGW proponents.

Here are some sample emails from the Climategate 2.0 release of these cough*scientsists*cough emailing each other.

/// The Settled Science ///

Warren:

The results for 400 ppm stabilization look odd in many cases […] As it stands we’ll have to delete the results from the paper if it is to be published.

Wils:

[2007] What if climate change appears to be just mainly a multidecadal natural fluctuation? They’ll kill us probably […]

Wilson:

Although I agree that GHGs are important in the 19th/20th century (especially since the 1970s), if the weighting of solar forcing was stronger in the models, surely this would diminish the significance of GHGs. […] it seems to me that by weighting the solar irradiance more strongly in the models, then much of the 19th to mid 20th century warming can be explained from the sun alone.

Hoskins:

If the tropical near surface specific humidity over tropical land has not gone up (Fig 5) presumably that could explain why the expected amplification of the warming in the tropics with height has not really been detected.

Jenkins/MetO:

would you agree that there is no convincing evidence for kilimanjaro glacier melt being due to recent warming (let alone man-made warming)?

Jones:

[tropical glaciers] There is a small problem though with their retreat. They have retreated a lot in the last 20 years yet the MSU2LT data would suggest that temperatures haven’t increased at these levels.

Jones:

There shouldn’t be someone else at UEA with different views [from “recent extreme weather is due to global warming”] – at least not a climatologist.

Crowley:

I am not convinced that the “truth” is always worth reaching if it is at the cost of damaged personal relationships

Briffa:

Also there is much published evidence for Europe (and France in particular) of increasing net primary productivity in natural and managed woodlands that may be associated either with nitrogen or increasing CO2 or both. Contrast this with the still controversial question of large-scale acid-rain-related forest decline? To what extent is this issue now generally considered urgent, or even real?

Crowley:

Phil, thanks for your thoughts – guarantee there will be no dirty laundry in the open.

Steig:

He’s skeptical that the warming is as great as we show in East Antarctica — he thinks the “right” answer is more like our detrended results in the supplementary text. I cannot argue he is wrong.

Jones:

This will reduce the 1940-1970 cooling in NH temps. Explaining the cooling with sulphates won’t be quite as necessary.

Haimberger:

It is interesting to see the lower tropospheric warming minimum in the tropics in all three plots, which I cannot explain. I believe it is spurious but it is remarkably robust against my adjustment efforts.

Klein/LLNL:

Does anybody have an explanation why there is a relative minimum (and some negative trends) between 500 and 700 hPa? No models with significant surface warming do this

Osborn:

This is an excellent idea, Mike, IN PRINCIPLE at least. In practise, however, it raises some interesting results […] the analysis will not likely lie near to the middle of the cloud of published series and explaining the reasons behind this etc. will obscure the message of a short EOS piece.

Norwegian Meteorological Institute:

In Norway and Spitsbergen, it is possible to explain most of the warming after the 1960s by changes in the atmospheric circulation. The warming prior to 1940 cannot be explained in this way.
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January 10, 2012 9:48am
Scott Chris

Falafulu Fisi says:- “read Scaffetta’s comparison of his method and the IPCC.”

Safetta is a professor specializing in theoretical and applied statistics and nonlinear models of complex processes.

Why would I pretend or bother to try to understand what the fuck he’s trying to say?

All I have to go on is his basic scientific methodology, and what his peers say about him:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/11/a-phenomenological-sequel/
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January 10, 2012 9:48am
fatnuts

Chris, re ‘No scientist worth his salt would hide his methods and not subject them to peer review.’

So I assume you support the case against NIWA’s temerature record? The record that shows warming of 1 degree over the last 100 years in NZ can only be arrived at by making ‘adjustments’ to the raw data, nearly all of which is upward. The methodology for these adjustments is no longer available. How can his record be regarded as credible now?

http://nzclimatescience.net/images/PDFs/salinger_thesis.pdf

In answer to Parliamentary Question 1200 (2010) the Minister of Research, the Hon Dr Wayne Mapp, advised the House:
“NIWA holds the ʻrawʼ climate data in its National Climate Database, site history information and the adjusted time series. The original worksheets and/or computer records used by Dr Jim Salinger to construct the seven-station temperature series are no longer available having been held on a superceded computer system”
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January 10, 2012 9:49am
Other_Andy

Gary and his merry band of unionists want to manage the Port of Auckland.
They think they can do a better job than the management team currently in charge.
They complain that management is paid too much and hasn’t got a clue.
Here is the solution…
The PoA is currently worth about 400 million.
Put the PoA up for sale, 40 million shares at $10 each.
Give Gary and the unionists the first option to buy the shares.
If they buy all or enough shares they can run the PoA as they see fit.
Pay themselves and the management as much as they like……
Problem solved.
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January 10, 2012 9:52am
reid

flipper and Pete, nothing will change because this issue is related to the vapid content issue. MSM don’t care about informing, they care only about circulation/ratings and unfortunately people being what they are, lurid, crass vapour sells more, everytime.

I recall when Gibbs started up the BBC radio service in the 90’s it was an effort to put some quality into the MSM here but it never attracted much audience.

It’s not that they don’t know they’re doing it, they do. What needs to happen is no-one should watch/read/listen when they report on anything except quality news. The MSM should get the message the public aren’t interested in celeb happenings, sport reporting of any kind at all levels, etc. Think that’s going to happen?
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January 10, 2012 9:55am
travellerev

Some food for thought:

A self hating Jew expressing his wish for peace with the Palestinians and the end of apartheid in Israel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCKWDarNdGw and on the eve of what might become WWIII some history: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WVtpao0KSM and last but not least the official Conspiracy theory of 9/11: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98
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January 10, 2012 9:55am
Falafulu Fisi

Scott Chris…

Safetta is a professor specializing in theoretical and applied statistics and nonlinear models of complex processes.

Then why the fuck did you lecture Bryan Leyland all day long on the other thread about trend as if you understood?

You brought up, the specialty of Scaffeta as if it is irrelevant to climate science. Do you know what warmist Dr. Gavin Schmidtz got his PhD in? Yep, he got his PhD is mathematics. I doubt that Gavin has been ever inside a science laboratory to see what an oscilloscope looks like. That’s besides the point. Once you know mathematics at a deep level, then it is irrelevant whether you’re a trained physicist, engineer or whatever. One’s area of research is not limited to mathematics but all mathematical related fields, as physics, economics, computing, fluid dynamics, medicine and so forth. So, Scaffetta’s and Schmidtz’s backgrounds are irrelevant. They’re both climate science researchers which the foundation is mathematics , end of story.
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January 10, 2012 9:57am
Linda Reid

“shouldn’t we at least monitor and try to predict climate changes as best we can though”

Of course we should keep doing the science! I assume what drives most scientists is rampant curiosity!

However a lot of what we’ve been served is not true science – but political activism dressed as science. The IPCC, for example, is driven by a political agenda and the summaries are written first. Then the chapter authors have to make their chapter fit the summary.
(This book details it: The Delinquent Teenager Who Was Mistaken for the World’s Top Climate Expert by
Donna Laframboise http://www.amazon.com/Delinquent-Teenager-Mistaken-Worlds-Climate/dp/1466453486/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326142452&sr=8-1 )

Because of this political activist point of view, I have yet to see a politician suggest mitigation as a solution (assuming we have anything to solve, which looks less and less likely).

Truth is, there is not enough solid evidence to cause us to spend billions or trillions of dollars and reduce standards of living for people around the world as a solution to problem which in reality does not exist.
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January 10, 2012 9:59am
Scott Chris

Fletch

There is no doubt that some scientists take the proselytizing process too far. Glacial retreat and unusual migration for instance, is not strong evidence of climate change, and I tend to ignore it.

However, a few overzealous scientists, perhaps with a political agenda overstepping their boundaries doesn’t mean the rest of the science is bunk.

You have to look at it, piece by piece, and then put the picture puzzle together. Looking at the individual pieces and extrapolating from there is like trying to describe the forest by looking at one tree.
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January 10, 2012 10:03am
Fletch

ps, follow the link to this page which describes how these “scientists” try to get Chris De Freitas fired from University of Auckland because he does not agree with them –

The emails will track how annoyance at the publication of a ‘contrary’ article in a journal develops into an attack on the editor, Chris de Freitas, an accomplished scientist. The attack includes a plot to see if they can get him sacked from his job at University of Auckland.

This is the sort of stuff that goes on when the big boys feel threatened…

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/11/27/the-tribalistic-corruption-of-peer-review-the-chris-de-freitas-incident/

This has NOTHING to do with science. If someone wants to publish an article refuting AGW, why can’t they? It’s NOT settled by any means, although some would like you to think so..
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January 10, 2012 10:06am
Scott Chris

Falafulu Fisi

Pays to read the whole post, not the first line or two. His expertise is totally relevant to climate science.

I repeat, I can only judge by what his peers (ie other professors of applied statistical method) have to say, and by how closely he adheres to basic scientific methodology.

He fails on both counts.

As for Brian Leyland, what he was saying was fundamentally flawed, so I was merely articulating my refutation of his erroneous assertions. If that sounds like a lecture to you, then so be it.
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January 10, 2012 10:13am
Monique Watson

On the Doomsday thing: the world is meant to end this year. Some Mayan thing. Almost as good as being in an election year:
http://nowoccupy.blogspot.com/2012/01/santorum-vs-romney.html
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January 10, 2012 10:19am
Manolo

The Messiah’s Chief of Staff departs: http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8400664/white-house-chief-of-staff-to-step-down
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January 10, 2012 10:29am
Pete George

The MSM should get the message the public aren’t interested in celeb happenings, sport reporting of any kind at all levels, etc. Think that’s going to happen?

Yep, sure it will happen. It has been suggested that 2012 is going to be the end of the world, but they didn’t read the Mayan script properly – it’s going to be the end of the world as we know it. Starting this year everyone is going to:
– not read or watch any celebrity ‘news’
– not watch cooking shows followed by diet shows
– eat less junk food where the attraction of the packaging gets far more attention than the food
– not pay twice as much for things because they have a ‘label’
– not pay twice as much for clothes and then waer the advertising for free
– grizzle less about negatives and do more positive
– appreciate the hard selfless task of being a politician regardless of leaning
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January 10, 2012 10:34am
Other_Andy

ClimateGate

This article shows all the connections between left wing organisations such as Fenton Communications, MoveOn.org, Real-Climate and between people such as “Hockey Stick” Mann, Al Gore and the multi-bilionaire George Soros.

http://spectator.org/blog/2009/11/27/whats-nasa-and-team-alarmism-s

For the full picture, check out
Red hot lies: how global warming alarmists use threats, fraud, and deception to keep you misinformed
By Christopher C. Horner
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January 10, 2012 10:45am
Scott Chris

Some interesting facts.

1) 2011 was the warmest year on record with a La Nina event.

2) The 13 warmest years have all occurred in the 15 years since 1997.

3) The extent of Arctic sea ice in 2011 was the second lowest on record, and its volume was the lowest.

Source: The World Meteorological Organization (or the FCL, the Fucking Commie Liars as some would like to believe)

http://en.mercopress.com/2011/11/29/global-temperature-in-2011-the-tenth-highest-on-record-says-wmo
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January 10, 2012 11:27am
fatnuts

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/

Global Highlights:

The combined global land and ocean average surface temperature for the January – November period was 0.52°C (0.94°F) above the 20th century average of 14.0°C (57.2°F), making it the 11th warmest such period on record. The margin of error is +/- 0.09°C (0.16°F).

The January – November worldwide land surface temperature was 0.84°C (1.51°F) above the 20th century average — the seventh warmest such period on record. The margin of error is +/- 0.20°C (0.36°F).

The global ocean surface temperature for the year to date was 0.41°C (0.74°F) above the 20th century average and was the 11th warmest such period on record. The margin of error is +/- 0.04°C (0.07°F).
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January 10, 2012 11:57am
Right of way is Way of Right

Isn’t it great to see Greece is being so responsible with all our bail-out money!

From http://www.news24.com/World/News/Greece-classes-paedophilia-as-disability-20120109

Greece classes paedophilia as disability
2012-01-09 23:02

Athens – Greek disability groups expressed anger on Monday at a government decision to expand a list of state-recognised disability categories to include paedophiles, exhibitionists and kleptomaniacs.

The National Confederation of Disabled People called the action “incomprehensible”, and said paedophiles are now awarded a higher government disability pay than some people who have received organ transplants.

The labour ministry said categories added to the expanded list – that also includes pyromaniacs, compulsive gamblers, fetishists and sadomasochists – were included for purposes of medical assessment and used as a gauge for allocating financial assistance.

But NCDP leader Yiannis Vardakastanis, who is blind, warned the new list could create new difficulties for disabled Greeks who are already facing benefit cuts due to the country’s financial crisis.

“What’s happened is incomprehensible. I think there is some big mistake. The ministry should have a different policy on disability,” Vardakastanis told the Associated Press.

“The list contains major changes to disability quotients, which could effectively remove many people from access to benefits.”

The new list gives pyromaniacs and paedophiles disability pay up to 35%, compared to 80% for heart transplant recipients.

“It’s really not serious to grant Peeping Toms a 20%-30% disability rate, and 10% to diabetics, who have insulin shots four or five times a day,” said Vardakastanis.

Greece has been fighting to avoid bankruptcy since 2009. Public spending on health and welfare programmes has been sharply cut under austerity measures imposed as a condition for receiving emergency loans from the International Monetary Fund and other countries using the euro currency.

Independently run welfare programmes that survived on state grants have been the hardest hit, leaving some disabled groups, including the deaf, facing sudden drops in their standard of care.

The government is also battling widespread abuse in the welfare system, forcing tens of thousands of disabled people to be reassessed.

– SAPA
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January 10, 2012 12:13pm
cha

Golly gosh O-A, the alarmists at the University College London and the University of Cambridge are at it again.
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January 10, 2012 12:30pm
Scott Chris

cha

I think the good news is that once GHG levels are fully regulated and controlled, we’ll be able to use them to stave off the next ice age. Might even be a selling point for a politician………

After all, now consumerism appears to be the official religion, we *must* have climate control in the house, the car and the outdoors. Heck, methane production might become all the rage once we run out of fossil fuels to regulate the climate.

I have visions of specially bred flatulent cows. Comedic gold.
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January 10, 2012 12:46pm
cha

No need for cows Scott.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/vast-methane-plumes-seen-in-arctic-ocean-as-sea-ice-retreats-6276278.html

http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/frozenground/methane.html
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January 10, 2012 1:08pm
Other_Andy

@cha

The first sentence already contains a ‘mistake’…….
“Unprecedented levels of greenhouse gases…”
They are NOT unprecedented.

“..there is a much higher concentration of greenhouse gases trapping the sun’s heat in the Earth’s atmosphere now than there was in at least the last several million years…”
Absolute bollocks!
They have been as high (and higher) several times in the last several millions of years. For example CO2 levels today have reached levels similar to a previous interglacial cycle of 120,000 – 140,000 years ago.

Won’t even bother to read the rest.
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January 10, 2012 1:16pm
cha

So you never made it to the first comment then O-A.

Before anyone refutes the findings of the National Science Foundation in the U.S., the research Council of Norway, and the Natural Environment Research Council in the U.K., preface your remarks with your credentials.
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January 10, 2012 1:18pm
holysheet

I see there are some calling for another public holiday to remember the CHCH deaths in the Eq’s. Why?
There is no public holiday for the napier Eq, or the erebus disaster, or any other disaster. Next they will want one to remember pike river and the balloning tragedy. We need to remember these events, sure, but to want a nationwide public holiday is going way over the top.

Once again they expect the employers to pay for this. Can we have a day off without pay to remember them? not bloody likely.
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January 10, 2012 1:46pm
publicwatchdog

Six ‘double-dipping’ Ports of Auckland Directors get $163,166 each in Directors fees for the Ports of Auckland ‘Group’ and Ports of Auckland ‘Parent’!
10 January 2012

http://www.poal.co.nz/news_media/publications/POAL_financial%20_review_2011.pdf

In the 2011 Ports of Auckland Ltd Financial Review, it states on Pg 18

That the Directors’ fees for the POAL Group were $496,000 –

That the Directors fees for the POAL Parent were $483,000 –

WAYNE THOMPSON Chief Financial Officer Ports Of Auckland Ltd ( Ph 348 5358) confirmed this afternoon by telephone that the Directors fees for the POAL Group ( $496,000) , and the Directors fees for the POAL Parent ( $483,000) are going to the same six POAL Directors:

THAT’S $979,000 BETWEEN SIX DIRECTORS FOR THE DIRTY, DANGEROUS WORK OF TRYING TO WRECKING THE MARITIME UNION OF NZ AND DESTROYING WORKERS’ LIVES THROUGH CASUALISATION?

$163,166 PER DIRECTOR?

Where’s this money going?

http://www.poal.co.nz/about_us/board_of_directors.htm

Board of Directors

Piloting the company through the current challenging and changing times, Ports of Auckland’s Directors draw on in-depth knowledge developed during successful careers in shipping, logistics, transport, law and management in New Zealand and abroad, and extensive experience at both executive and board level.

Richard Clive Pearson BCA
Chairman

Mr Pearson was appointed a Director in December 2010 and Chairman in 2011. He has extensive experience in port operations and investment around the world and has recently returned to New Zealand following a long career with Hutchison Port Holdings Group, most recently as Managing Director, Hong Kong International terminals Ltd (1996 – 1998) and Managing Director – Europe Division, President ECT Rotterdam (1998 – 2007).

He is currently Chairman of Wellington Electricity Distribution Network Holdings Ltd.

Graeme Scott Hawkins BSc, BCom
Director and Audit Committee Chairman
Mr Hawkins was appointed a Director in September 2009. He is a professional Director, with extensive experience in senior management roles in the private sector, including at Fletcher Challenge and as Chief Executive of Dominion Breweries in the late 1980s.

Mr Hawkins is currently Chairman of Watercare Services and Southern Cross Healthcare, a Director of Ballance Agri-Nutrients Limited and Cavalier Corporation. He has previously been a Director of a number of dairy industry organisations including Fonterra.

Andrew Bonner BA (Hons)
Director
Mr Bonner became a Director in December 2009. He is also a Director of Marlborough Wines. Mr Bonner was formerly an executive with Fosters Group Limited where he ran the import arm of the Fosters business in Australia, was Managing Director of Fosters Group New Zealand and also Managing Director and Chairman of Fosters Group Pacific Limited in Fiji . He is currently a founding partner in an export focused wine business.

Robert James Campbell (Rob) BA (Hons), M.Phil (Economics)
Director
Appointed a Director in December 2010, Mr Campbell is Director and Owner of Tutanekai Investments Limited. He is a Director of a number of New Zealand and international companies including the Accident Compensation Corporation, Aquasure Pty Limited (Australia), Guinness Peat Limited (UK), Serica Balanced Credit Fund (Hong Kong), Truescape Limited, CallPlus Limited and Murray and Co, as well as being a Trustee on the Auckland City Mission Foundation.

Mr Campbell has been a Director and Investment Manager at Tappenden Holdings Limited, has lectured in the Economics Departments at Victoria and Massey Universities and has been a Union Advisor, acting as an advocate in the Arbitration and Appeal Courts. He has previously been on the Boards of NZ Post, Bank of New Zealand, Government Printing Office, Mitsubishi Motors (NZ) Limited and Netway Limited.

Elizabeth Mary Coutts (Liz) BMS, CA
Director
Appointed a Director in December 2010, Ms Coutts is also a Director of EBOS Group Limited, Skellerup Holdings Limited, Ravensdown Fertiliser Cooperative Limited and Chair of Urwin and Co Limited.

She has previously been Chief Executive of Caxton Group, Chairman of Meritec Group Limited, Industrial Research Limited and Life Pharmacy Limited, Deputy Chairman of Public Trust, and a Commissioner of both the Commerce Commission and Earthquake Commission. She has been a Director of the Health Funding Authority, PHARMAC, Air New Zealand, Sport and Recreation New Zealand and Trust Bank New Zealand, and a member of both the Financial Reporting Standards Board of the Institute of Chartered Accountants and the Monetary Policy Committee of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand.

Wayne Walden ONZM
Director
Wayne is an experienced Company Director, and was previously Managing Director and shareholder of Farmers/Deka Ltd. He has had more than 30 years senior management experience in the liquor, wholesale and retail trades in New Zealand.

Wayne’s past directorships include, Director of Farmlands Co-Operative Society, Director of the Westpac Bank NZ Advisory Board, Deputy Chairman of Meat New Zealand, Director of Mighty River Power Limited, Chairman of Tranz Rail and Chair of Maori Television. Wayne was also a member of the Board of the Auckland Transition Agency. He is currently a Director of Television New Zealand Limited.

SOLIDARITY WITH THE MARITIME WORKERS OF NZ !

As a member of Occupy Auckland, I have recommended that we call for as many people as possible to get down to Fergusson Wharf and support the workers from NOW until 11pm tomorrow (Wednesday 11 January 2012) night when their 48 hour strike/picket stops.

http://wikimapia.org/17806102/Fergusson-Wharf
This is URGENT!

In my considered opinion, this is a clear attack by those representing the interests of the wealthy corporate 1% against the 99%, and it is the CEO of Ports of Auckland who should be sacked forthwith, because Tony Gibson has clearly proven himself to be ‘unfit for duty’.

(Check out the POAL ‘Statement of Intent’ 2011- 2014 , POAL ‘Code of Conduct’)

Penny Bright

waterpressure@gmail.com
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January 10, 2012 2:27pm
Longknives

Just not cricket-

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10777789

Whether you are a club cricketer or a New Zealand All Black there is something seriously wrong with you if you just ‘whip it out’ and take a whizz on the field…
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January 10, 2012 2:33pm
alex Masterley

As I recall, POAL is owned by Auckland City Investments (?) Limited.
There are no other shareholders.
The directors job is to act oin the best interests of the shareholder. If that is what they are doing strength to their elbow I say.
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January 10, 2012 2:44pm
Elaycee

Jesus wept – this has NOTHING to do with the Directors of the POAL – this is ALL about the intransigence of the Maritime Union and their decision to take repeated strike action. And no amount of smoke screening / obfuscating / spin doctoring and fairy tale spinning by MUNZ / Joe Carolyn and any other such muppet, will change the FACTS!

Support for the strikers? Bollocks. Their strike actions have already cost the POA customers including Maersk and Fonterra and it’s only a matter of time before the list grows.

Support should be totally behind the Management of the POA who should not allow the militant actions of a very few, bugger up the shareholder value of a ratepayer owned asset.

In fact, less than 0.1% of Auckland ratepayers are buggering up a business owned by the other 99.9%!

The sooner these roles are contracted out (and the Maritime Union is kicked right out of the POA), the better.
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January 10, 2012 3:10pm
bhudson

@cha,

Before anyone refutes the findings of the National Science Foundation in the U.S., the research Council of Norway, and the Natural Environment Research Council in the U.K., preface your remarks with your credentials.

Human being, citizen of New Zealand: Credentials are not required to hold or express an opinion. Nor are credentials an absolute when it comes to validity or veracity of arguments.

Those in the so-called debate that retreat behind elitist walls of credentials should try reading “On Liberty” by John Stuart Mill. They ought to be ashamed.
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January 10, 2012 3:20pm
Griff

No but a political opinion is not science to link to lawyers is nut case fringe thinking when it comes to science.
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January 10, 2012 3:30pm
Keeping Stock

So Penny Bright is going out in solidarity with the MUNZ strikers. Crikey; I never saw that one coming.
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January 10, 2012 4:01pm
Manolo

SOLIDARITY WITH THE MARITIME WORKERS OF NZ!

No, Miss Dim. The lazy unionists should be fired immediately.
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January 10, 2012 4:03pm
Other_Andy

@cha
“So you never made it to the first comment then O-A.”
No, because those statements are utter cr@p which doesn’t bode well for the rest.
Again…..

“..there is a much higher concentration of greenhouse gases trapping the sun’s heat in the Earth’s atmosphere now than there was in at least the last several million years…”
No there isn’t.
For the last 600.000 years, look at the EPA data.
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/recentac_majorghg.html#fig1

As for “Unprecedented”
It is common knowledge that In the last 600 million years of Earth’s history only the Carboniferous Period and our present age, the Quaternary Period, have witnessed CO2 levels less than 400 ppm. So yes, 380 ppm is unprecedented but only because it is so low!
To compare current CO2 levels with historical CO2 levels (Just one of many sources)
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/201/8/1043.full.pdf
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January 10, 2012 4:04pm
aitkenmike

I’ve ignored Penny before, but I can’t let this slide, sorry to everyone for engaging. (P.S. Penny, I actually am leaning toward the unions side here, but misinformation either way doesn’t help anyone)

Pg. 18 states directors fees for both Group and Parent were 425mil. What you have done is taken the sum total of the category Directors fees are included in (Sundry expenses) and thus included the donations made and bad debts written off.

Also, this does not mean they are ‘double dipping’ – the expenses of the parent are INCLUDED in the expenses of the group, as they are part of it.
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January 10, 2012 4:12pm
aitkenmike

Wow, you have to be quick to edit posts around here!
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January 10, 2012 4:16pm
bhudson

@Griff,

Who has been linking to lawyers?
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January 10, 2012 4:35pm
Other_Andy

I bet it makes sense to some of you (or to all those smart scientists)….

In the 70’s ‘scientists’ predict a new Ice Age which will have catastrophic results for the Earth’s ecosystems.
Twenty years later ‘scientists’ change their mind and now predict Global Warming which will also have catastrophic results for the Earth’s ecosystems.
Now, twenty years later scientists predict that the Ice Age which they had predicted before but unpredicted when they found out about global warming, is still on the cards but is now not coming because of the effects of Global Warming. However, Global warming is still bad as it causes the Ice Age, that they now say they predicted all along, to be delayed. While having an Ice Age was previously very bad, it is now also very bad not to have an Ice Age because of Global Warming, which is even worse.

Rrrrrrright.
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January 10, 2012 4:47pm
holysheet

Finally, someone has mentioned the impending ice age. I am still waiting for somebody to mention magnetic reversals and global warming or should I say ocean warming in the same sentence. Why link these two events?

There is no denying that methane, CO2, hydrocarbons and sulfur levels are rising in the atmosphere. But human contributions are minor. Do we honestly believe that we can change the weather, when we don’t even know if it will rain tomorrow. If we’re causing the problem, why did similar changes occur at the end of the last Ice Age? Why did some of the changes occur about 23,000 years ago? Or 35,000 years ago? Or 58,000 years ago? Or 115,000 years ago? Or 780,000 years ago? Or 65 million years ago? What’s causing the recent increases in earthly seismic activity or volcanic activity?

By the same token, if we’re causing today’s rising ocean temperatures, why did ocean temperatures rise so dramatically at the end of the last Ice Age? Because humans had nothing to do with it. It shouldn’t be called global warming but ocean warming we didn’t cause it and we can’t change it.

There is a link between magnetic reversals and ice ages. Throughout the ages ice has played a major role in almost every extinction in history. Climatic cooling once a dominant agent at the Cambrian extension as it was at the Ordovician, the Permian, the Devonian, the Carboniferous, the mid-Miocene, and the end Miocene. The Precambrian extinction saw major glaciation, the dinosaurs died during a short period of glaciation, and so did the mammoths. And what did these glaciations have in common? Magnetic reversals.

Magnetic reversals correlate not only with glaciation but also volcanism. Ocean cores show that peaks in volcanism occurred during magnetic reversals. 80% of all volcanism occurs under oceans this volcanism must go mad during magnetic reversals, pumping vast amounts of red-hot basalt 2,150°F into the ocean.

Underwater volcanism is why sea levels rose so abruptly at the end-Eemian and why they’re about to do so again. Underwater volcanism is what heated the K-T seas and evaporated them. That’s where the moisture came from to cause glaciation. That’s why ice ages correlate with magnetic reversals. And that’s why the next Ice Age could begin any day.
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January 10, 2012 5:43pm
wat dabney

“This guy won’t release vital data supporting his theories, which is fucking sacrilege in the scientific world, and yet skeptics unquestioningly accept what he says.”

An alarmist complaining about a lack of transparency! Oh the ironing!

The alarmists continually fight tooth and nail to avoid releasing their work, even to the extent of deliberately deleting emails in response to Freedom of Information requests.

Such shameless hypocrisy. So sad.
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January 10, 2012 5:43pm
plebe

Didnt see this comment comming,truly i didnt
Manolo (5,836) Says:

January 10th, 2012 at 4:03 pm
SOLIDARITY WITH THE MARITIME WORKERS OF NZ!

No, Miss Dim. The lazy unionists should be fired immediately.
Manolo i suppose you class yourself as a hard worker???,come on bore us with your hard working feats
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January 10, 2012 5:57pm
cha

Makes not a lot of sense to me sometimes too O_A but I do have confidence in the ‘district average’
and following the money has always made sense.

http://www.lloyds.com/~/media/b1dc3b7abdf94860bdab862150bf2adf.ashx

http://www.munichre.com/app_pages/www/@res/pdf/group/focus/climate_change/weather_catastrophes_in_china_1980%E2%80%932010_en.pdf

http://www.ey.com/GL/en/Newsroom/News-releases/Media—Press-Release—Strategic-Risk-to-Insurance-Industry

Nutter Testimony(Reinsurance Association)

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/dod/dsb/climate.pdf
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January 10, 2012 6:26pm
Other_Andy

@cha

“….following the money has always made sense.”

Meaning?
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January 10, 2012 6:47pm
bhudson

wat dabney,

An alarmist complaining about a lack of transparency! Oh the ironing!

That’ll straighten them out
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January 10, 2012 7:09pm
nasska

A man was walking down the street when he was accosted by a particularly dirty and shabby-looking homeless man who asked him for a couple of dollars for dinner.

The man took out his wallet, extracted ten dollars and asked, “If I give you this money, will you buy some beer with it instead of dinner?”

“No, I had to stop drinking years ago,” the homeless man replied.

“Will you use it to go fishing or hunting instead of buying food?” the man asked.

“No, I don’t waste time fishing or hunting,” the homeless man said. “I need to spend all my time trying to stay alive.”

“Will you spend this on green fees at a golf course instead of food?” the man asked.

“Are you NUTS!” replied the homeless man. “I haven’t played golf in 20 years!”

“Well,” said the man, “I’m not going to give you money. Instead, I’m going to take you home for a shower and a terrific dinner cooked by my wife.”

The homeless man was astounded. “Won’t your wife be furious with you for doing that?

The man replied, “That’s okay. It’s important for her to see what a man looks like after he has given up drinking, fishing hunting and golf .
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January 10, 2012 8:00pm
noskire

I wish this was a joke.

Tower Junction is one of the main destination shopping centres in Christchurch. Earthquake repairs were pretty much completed before Xmas. The exterior of the complex was repainted in Dulux paint, yet Resene is a tenant. They kicked up a stink with the landlord (Ngai Tahu Properties), and what has already been repainted will need to be repainted again in Resene paint. WTF?
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January 10, 2012 10:30pm

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