General Debate 6 December 2011

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RightNow

Where is everyone?
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December 6, 2011 8:10am
Murray

The lefty trolls are sulking and for the rest of us, our work is done.
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December 6, 2011 8:20am
nasska

This should brighten the day of cat lovers everywhere: http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/view/81226968/
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December 6, 2011 8:22am
Jimbob

Looks like the Europeans have starved off the financial gremlins until the new year. We may get a little Christmas rally to delay the necessary actions on their exploding debit. I would suspect it will take a tanking market before Germany finally allow Euro bonds and more lasting action from the ECB sometime next year.
I see John Banks has stirred up the teacher unions over his charter schools trial. Looks like more panic from the unions and a restless time over the school holidays.
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December 6, 2011 8:27am
Fisiani

Grant Robertson (Lab-Wellington Central) is easily the biggest loser of Election 2011.
He ran an electorate type campaign in an MMP election.
Tactical Green split voting increased his electorate majority. BUT
The Labour Party vote collapsed from 35% to 25%. It is just a mere 12 votes more than the Greens. After the 4000+ specials are counted the Labour Party in Wellington Central will probably be in third position. This is the worst Party Vote result of any Labour electorate MP.

He however believes he is a winner. His Machiavellian secret and traitorous campaign to lower the Labour Party vote nationwide by encouraging a poor campaign on unelectable policies has resulted in the loss from caucus of the Shane Jones supporters who were relegated to the lower positions on the List. This has allowed him to put his name forward for Deputy Leader as a stepping stone to being the Leader.
He has spoken enough on the party line to claim plausible deniability.

He is the biggest loser.
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December 6, 2011 8:27am
Scott Chris

Pfitzer’s cash cow ‘Lipitor’ patent expires after US$100 billion in sales:

http://www.nature.com/news/blockbuster-drug-bows-out-1.9495

Here come the generics. With a government subsidy worth $400 per person p.a. who take lipitor daily, this should be good news for the tax payer.
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December 6, 2011 8:38am
Scott Chris

nasska @ 8.22 – are you suggesting a pussy between a pair of breasts is a good thing?
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December 6, 2011 8:43am
hmmokrightitis

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/6091158/Key-defends-charter-schools

@jimbob, I lol’d when I saw this. labour, who actively campaigned for the retention of MMP, now, through the ostensibly brain dead Sue Morony, complain about the fact that coalition governments deliver compromised outcomes, such as charter schools trial.

So, the only real conclusion that can be drawn? When labour are in power, MMP is fine and dandy. When they are not, its evil. Dearest Sue, fucktard of the week award goes to you. 🙂
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December 6, 2011 8:44am
Falafulu Fisi

Perhaps cat lovers won’t like this weird cat.

The description of the weird cat is a bit more clearer here of Schrodinger pussy.
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December 6, 2011 8:45am
East Wellington Superhero

I note that National Radio is referring to Charter Schools as “American Style Charter Schools” in almost every sentence. The American ‘education historian’ that was a guest this morning rolled out typical clichés and offered very few facts. News gathering fail from the state broadcaster.
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December 6, 2011 8:49am
nasska

Scott Chris

Since this is a family blog I’ll refrain from answering that.
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December 6, 2011 8:52am
Pete George

Ironic:

Sue Bradford of Auckland Action Against Poverty told Morning Report the agreement will bring further state control into people’s lives in a negative, judgemental and paternalistic way.

Nanny state good, pater state bad.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/93035/bradford-against-welfare-changes
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December 6, 2011 9:06am
Other_Andy

Govt’s charter schools plan slammed

“But the plan has been slammed by the Post Primary Teachers’ Association, the Principals’ Federation, the Education Institute and the Secondary Principals Association, and there are questions around whether the Government has the mandate to implement the change.”

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10771244

A mandate to implement the change?
Don’t elections mean anything anymore to ~~the unions~~ Labour?
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December 6, 2011 9:08am
Murray

Never did, only socialists think they have any kind of madate. But its only in their heads anyway.
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December 6, 2011 9:10am
Manolo

If it pisses off the PPTA, it can only be good for parents, students, and NZ.
Down with the unionist Labour stooges!
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December 6, 2011 9:13am
Manolo

I note that National Radio is referring to Charter Schools..

Yes, the same National Radio Labour lite just agreed not to privatise thanks to the agreement with the meretricious Peter Dunne.

You have to decry the absolute lack of testicles shown by the National Party.
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December 6, 2011 9:16am
Manolo

The Luddites whitewash continues: http://msn.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10771098
Time for the co-leaders to come clean and admit they were aware of the vandalism all along.
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December 6, 2011 9:34am
graham

Wow, I never thought I’d see the day – Hell’s Pizza actually apologises for something.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10771221

“Hell Pizza has apologised for including the message “You will marry a transgender” in their “misfortune” cookies.”

Now if they can just apologise for offending Tongans, Jews, and Christians (multiple times), “condom-gate”, calling George Bush an “evil bastard”, calling KidsCan “dorks”, mocking the dead (Sir Edmund Hillary, Heath Ledger, and the Queen Mother) …
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December 6, 2011 9:42am
Scott Chris

graham says:- “Hell’s Pizza actually apologises for something”

Yeah. For offending the trans-gender community, and by association, most lefty liberals who may buy Hell’s Pizza. Christians are unlikely to buy Hell’s Pizza, so they’re fair game to ridicule from a marketing perspective.

It’s just business.
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December 6, 2011 10:43am
Manolo

Germany has been warned: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/7cf2e0ae-1f63-11e1-9916-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1fhRxXM3S
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December 6, 2011 10:56am
graham

And I guess Sir Edmund is fair game to ridicule as well?

I understand “it’s just business” – in fact we had a discussion in the office about this yesterday, and I pointed out then that as a 42-year old, I’m not part of Hell’s target demographic. Hence they don’t care about offending me; they are targeting the younger market. I get this.

What I don’t get, is their inability to admit “we stuffed up”. The campaign where they did a letterbox drop of condoms is a case in point. They tried to justify it by talking about their “social conscience” and their “valuable contribution to society”.

YOU’RE A PIZZA COMPANY. THAT’S ALL. I don’t want my ten-year-old daughter (as she was at the time) coming in with the mail and a packet of condoms and asking me what are these, and what is “Lust”? It’s up to me when I teach my daughter about these things – not you. But they (or their marketing company) rabbited on about “their duty to society” and just … didn’t … get it.
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December 6, 2011 11:01am
travellerev

The other day I read in another General debate how someone with apparent glee announced that the recent explosions in Iran were a good thing and someone answered with Shalom indicating he or she thought that this might be the work of the Mossad and while I have no problem with accepting that it was the Mossad doing it’s dirty work I thought I’d start with injecting some reality based information in this painfully uninformed forum so here’s my little contribution to today’s Kiwiblog happy mischief.

http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/2011/12/06/afghanistan-were-empires-go-to-die-or-could-this-be-the-beginning-of-the-end/
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December 6, 2011 11:13am
travellerev

And here is another one: http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Meetings/20070924Ahmadinejad.cfm
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December 6, 2011 11:15am
Elaycee

trivialrev: “..I’d start with injecting some reality based information …”

Haha….. ‘reality based’ ??

When do you intend to start?
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December 6, 2011 11:16am
travellerev

And since it is so much fun here is another one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zktmz92s_WI&feature=player_embedded
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December 6, 2011 11:19am
RightNow

Wellington City Council is considering a proposal to implement a safer speed limit for all traffic throughout Wellington. This proposal is to have a 40km/h speed limit across most Wellington city roads with the exceptions of:
a. Main roads which would remain at their current speed (usually 50km/h or 70km/h)
b. All suburban shopping centres which already have a 30km/h speed limit which will remain
c. All roads in the CBD which already have a 30km/h speed limit – ‘The Golden Mile’ from the Railway Station along Lambton Quay and Willis Street to Courtenay Place
(source – AC Nielsen survey I just completed, well it started out as a survey before moving into propagandising mode)

IMO this will lead to more stop-start traffic (increased vehicle emissions) and more time spent on your journey (economic loss). Since accidents in Wellington are actually dropping per capita, I don’t see this as a wise use of my rates money.
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December 6, 2011 11:20am
RightNow

travellerev…. nah, never mind.
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December 6, 2011 11:21am
nasska

RightNow

The speed restriction doesn’t make sense but it fits well with the ideals of your batshit mad mayor.

Wellington’s got Celia & Auckland’s got Len…you buggers can sure pick em.
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December 6, 2011 11:30am
travellerev

RightNow, It’s wearing thin. LOL. But if that’s all you got…
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December 6, 2011 11:33am
Manolo

That’s the price Wellington pays for having too many left-wing councillors and a loony Green as mayor. The latter is hopeless and useless combined.
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December 6, 2011 11:35am
RightNow

Yep, Wellington seems to be in the thrall of other people’s money. I would point out that I didn’t pick this one.
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December 6, 2011 11:43am
cubit

I see the Auckland watersiders have had a major victory in their dispute on the Auckland waterfront. They have achieved their objective of not upsetting the port when they strike or hold stop work meetings. The major shipping line using the port. Maersk, is going to assist their objective by not using the port at all. Tauranga is a better option apparently.

Well done chaps, watch the replay of you scoring a great own goal. Feeding hand well and truly bitten. Plonkers.
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December 6, 2011 12:08pm
RightNow

What a boon for Tauranga though cubit. Might consider moving that way myself if the barking mad mayor of Wellington carries on with her plan to turn the whole city into a cycleway.
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December 6, 2011 12:17pm
travellerev

I thought some of you might enjoy this blog: http://www.psychopathiceconomics.com/
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December 6, 2011 12:28pm
RightNow

For you travellerev: http://www.getaclue.org/
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December 6, 2011 12:29pm
nasska

Cubit

Looking back, what a great job militant unions have done for their members:

1) Freezing Workers – all the old freezing works gone
2) Wharfies – pretty much an endangered species
3) Cooks & Stewards – at peace alongside Tyrannosaurus Rex
4) Seaman’s Union – Now affiliated in the Philippines(?)

And in Auckland $93K/year to the dole….well at least they went out staunch.
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December 6, 2011 12:40pm
Elaycee

@nasska: Don’t forget the old boilermakers union – they buggered up the old BNZ site in Wellington for years and as a result, most construction nowadays is based on concrete.

Not many boilers to be seen nowadays (unless you take a walk past the Occupy site at Body Odour Central). 😛
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December 6, 2011 12:46pm
nasska

Elaycee

Yeah….forgot about that debacle. The rusty framework (as well as the throwback at BOC) is/was a fitting memorial to a trade killed off by militancy & total lack of commonsense. Mr Devit wasn’t it?
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December 6, 2011 12:58pm
Elaycee

Yup nasska…. Con Devit. One and the same. He ranks right alongside Dave Morgan of the Maritime Union and Wayne Butson of Rail.

Gems one and all….. 🙁
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December 6, 2011 1:06pm
cubit

Can anyone tell me what the actual salary package for a watersider actually is. I take it from the somewhat scant information provided by the union that these people are forced to exist on a 40 hour week paypacket of $520. What do people who earn this rate actually do?

Are all workers on the wharves under the one union or are other unions also active in this workplace. It is, and always hyas been difficult to actually understand the numbers in these disputes as neither side wishes to disclose the information.
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December 6, 2011 1:07pm
thedavincimode

Con Devit. A classic.

The arsehole probably went to his maker feeling pretty good about that one.

Makes me think immediately of that dickhead who headed the Seaman’s union for all those years. The guy with the bright shirts, bad ties and the homburg hat. Dave …????
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December 6, 2011 1:10pm
flipper

Nasska…. Elaycee ….
Yep, except it was Devitt with 2 ts.

When Bill Shaw was CEO of the BNZ I had him to lunch at my office which looked over to the rusting steel frame. He (Shaw) said then (while comiserating over the eyesore which he had not previously seen from the seaward side), even though no announcement had been made, that it would be “the last multi storey built in NZ with a STEEL frame.”
About a week later, R.D. Muldoon announced a change in policy for all Government construction that put Mr Devitt and his union on the scrap heap – permanently.
Tom Skinner did not bat an eyelid. Devitt was a silly, pig headed bastard!
The wharfies in Auckland are equally stupid.
How on earth do they hope to generate public sympathy when they are on $90,000+ incomes ? DUMB!
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December 6, 2011 1:20pm
Manolo

Bill’s always lucky. Nice job, if you can get it: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=47938
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December 6, 2011 1:28pm
flipper

CUBIT…try this for size!

Union Rich Pricks

by Whaleoil on December 2, 2011

A commenter on my post about the union stuffing up Christmas by shutting down the port said “Good on the union” and then launched into why the poor bastards need a break.

Cactus Kate meanwhile digs out the terms and conditions that these poor hard done by workers have to endure, including their pay schedule:

POAL has generous wage and benefit packages for staff under the Collective Agreement. For the year ended 30 June 2011:
•o Average wage for a full time stevedore at POAL was $91,480
•o Average wage for a part time stevedore at POAL was $65,518
•o 53% of full time stevedores (123 individuals) earned over $80,000
•o 28% (43 individuals) earned over $100,000 with the highest earner making $122,000

POAL provides:
•Southern Cross medical insurance for the employee and family
•Sick leave of up to 15 days per annum accumulating to 45 days over three years
•Fully paid in house training (no student loans required) to become a lasher, straddle and crane driver
•Five weeks annual leave for shift workers

Embedded inflexibilities and old-fashioned work practices mean that labour utilisation at POAL is approx. 65% compared to approx. 80% at Port of Tauranga:
•POAL’s crane drivers and deck foremen work on average 5.33 hours for every 8 paid
•Straddle drivers work an average 6 hours out of every 8 paid
•One recent example: stevedores worked 2 hours on an overtime shift but were paid for the whole 8 hour shift.
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December 6, 2011 1:33pm
wreck1080

I love this story about Aucklands striking port workers being responsible for the loss of the 20 million dollar Maersk contract to Tauranga.

This is awesome news, except for the poor bastards in Auckland who may lose their jobs. But, a job lost in Auckland is a job gained in Tauranga.

Maybe potential strikers will take note in future.

I can’t believe the Auckland port workers are on such a great deal. Sweet for them. But, looks like they are chasing too many bones now.
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December 6, 2011 1:41pm
Keeping Stock

@ thedavincimode – Dave Morgan. There’s a picture at the link below that will bring back memories:

http://mp.natlib.govt.nz/detail/?id=72907&l=mi
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December 6, 2011 2:13pm
Elaycee

The Boilermakers Union:

“The construction of the BNZ head office at the intersection of Lambton Quay and Willis Street started in 1974, but the contract was plagued by protracted industrial action, and was not completed until 1984. A series of strikes eventually led to the Government deregistering the Boilermakers Union”.

Nice work Con Devitt. The ‘BNZ’ building will be forever known as the legacy left by a complete sock puppet.

http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2007/08/political-welli.html
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December 6, 2011 2:20pm
cubit

Thanks Flipper. I had no idea that is what they earned. It is hard to understand what their greivance could possibly be.

Reminds me of the situatation in WWII when the lads came home on furlough in 1943 after enduring Greece,
Crete and North Africa. Many were not keen to go back to war when they found the wharfies wanted to strike because of danger. A lot of the troops said we will do the work for Army pay because it is a bloody side less dangerous unloading ammunition in Napier than unloading it in Nth Africa or having none of the stuff in Crete.

The salaries quoted by Flipper are a sight less than junior soldiers get in very unpleasant dangerous places around the world. They actually want to serve their country. Obviously not a bloody lot has changed.
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December 6, 2011 2:24pm
Brian Smaller

Don’t elections mean anything anymore to the unions Labour?

Never have, never will.
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December 6, 2011 2:55pm
JamesS

Funny how every few weeks during the last 20 years someone trying to look clever writes a report saying the same thing, and the media trying to look clever report it; we are still waiting for it to occur. It won’t. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10771182
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December 6, 2011 2:59pm
trout

The BNZ was completed (eventually) by members of the Boilermakers Union (welders and riggers) at a rate of $257 per hour. It is true that this spelt the end of high rise steel construction; reinforced concrete was substituted. In recent times there has been a return to steel because of cheap product out of China and fabrication off site. I guess welders and riggers now belong to the Engineer’s Union if required to.
The Maersk decision to favour Tauranga has been coming for some time; they were playing off one port against the other. I guess this is the tipping point.
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December 6, 2011 3:01pm
RightNow

Inconvenient truth for AlGore: 2232 days and counting since a major Hurricane made landfall on the USA … a new record (last record set 1900 – 1906).
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December 6, 2011 3:09pm
thedavincimode

Keeping Stock

…that will bring back memories

Thanks for that and it certainly did. None of them pleasant though.

Aside from being something of a shocker in the fashion department, I always got the impression that in Morgan’s case it was even more about Morgan than it was shoving it up the shipping companies.

He loved that camera, being the centre of attention and playing the tough guy for all it was worth. He didn’t seem to realise that dressing as if he had just been rescued from an explosion in a sweet factory just made him look like a complete tool; which of course he was. And that hat …. straight from the fifites.

With hindsight, I wonder if Morgan was the inspiration for Mike Myers in planning Austin Powers’ wardrobe.
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December 6, 2011 3:29pm
Elaycee

“I wonder if Morgan was the inspiration for Mike Myers in planning Austin Powers’ wardrobe.”

Or perhaps the wardrobe manager for Arthur Daly in “Minder”…
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December 6, 2011 3:40pm
bereal

Wow.

Is there anyone out there who saw the interview with Donald Trump this afternoon that
wasn’t totally impressed with him.
What a clear thinker. What a communicator. A goal setter. A capitalist who knows what that means, and, walks the walk. So simple. So clear.

If there is anyone who saw it that had a problem with what he said lets hear it.

Anything deeper than, “Trump is an idiot.” i would love to debate.
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December 6, 2011 3:42pm
Manolo

@RightNow at 3:09pm
Al “Conman” Gore will spin and read it exactly the opposite way: it’s because of AGW that hurricanes are weak, so it’s the result of man-made activities which alter the weather patterns.

The fat man is a charlatan, albeit an extremely wealthy one.
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December 6, 2011 3:45pm
RightNow

Yes Manolo, a fat wealthy charlatan pumping out more emissions than a developing nation.
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December 6, 2011 3:59pm
publicwatchdog

I look forward to a Select Committee Inquiry as to why ACT’s ‘ONE LAW FOR ALL’ did not apply to former ACT Leader Don Brash and now ACT MP for Epsom, John Banks – both former Directors of Huljich Wealth Mansgement (NZ) Ltd.

How come fellow former Director Peter Huljich was the only one charged, when all three Directors equally signed Huljich Kiwisaver Registered Prospectuses which contained untrue statements?

How come ACT’s ‘ONE LAW FOR ALL’ wasn’t equally applied by the CEO of the Finance Markets Authority, or the Director of the Serious Fraud Office to former ACT Leader Don Brash and now ACT MP for Epsom, John Banks?

Was this effectively political corruption at the highest levels?

High time for an NZ Independent Commission Against Corruption – given how spectacularly USELESS are these other statutory ‘third party’ toothless, gutless ‘corporate lapdogs’?

NZ – ‘perceived’ to be the least corrupt country in the world, according to the 2011 Transparency International ‘Corruption Perception Index’.

Yeah right.

NZ hasn’t even ratified the UN Convention Against Corruption.

UNBELIEVABLE.

Just proves that the Transparency International ‘Corruption Perception Index’ isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.

This current National/ACT/United Future Coalition Government is dependent on an arguably yet-to-be charged /convicted ‘white collar’ criminal John Banks, the commercial genius who couldn’t even competently run a Kiwisaver scheme?

(As I recall, Peter Huljich is up for sentencing on 8 December 2011.
Wonder how many weeks ‘home detention’ he’ll get for misleading all those ‘Mum and Dad’ Huljich Kiwisaver investors? )

Gee – I wonder how much ‘Regulatory Reform’ that John Banks is involved in that will tighten up on ‘white collar’ crime?

Or will he be focussed on replacing the public ‘bureaucracy’ with the arguably twice as expensive private ‘contractocracy’?

Penny Bright
waterpressure@gmail.com
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December 6, 2011 6:59pm
Tauhei Notts

New Zealand Cricket.
They have appointed a new Chief Executive Officer.
The appointee played two tests for N.Z. as an opener. His highest test score in his four innings for his country was FIVE!
We’ve a real winner here.
……………………………………………………………..
I have enjoyed National Socialist Radio going apeshit over the new education trials to be set up in South Auckland and Christchurch. That National Socialist Radio; they just can’t help themselves.
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December 6, 2011 7:18pm
Scott Chris

RightNow says:- “2232 days and counting since a major Hurricane made landfall on the USA … ”

It’ll come. Generally speaking, if you put more energy into a system, the bits in it will move faster. Whilst the States have had fewer *land fall* storms recently, the actual frequency of storms (ie with winds over 39mph) is trending up.

http://static-www.icr.org/i/articles/imp/imp-406-Hurricane-frequency.jpg
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December 6, 2011 7:34pm
Pauleastbay

Tauhei

I am willing to give him a chance after suffering Dr. Vaughn, the man who narked up an entire country while attending a rugby test.

But once again we have been inflicted with someone who appears to have spent too much time getting degrees.

Turned off Sky sport for the first time in 20 odd years last night as a direct result of the Brisbane test, jesus wept.
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December 6, 2011 7:42pm
wat dabney

Here are the charts of recent hurricane frequency

http://policlimate.com/tropical/index.html

Even the most ardent alarmist would have to admit the trend is down
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December 6, 2011 7:49pm
reid

Bit of background on Stuxnet – Conficker may have been developed by the same people.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/02/us-cybersecurity-iran-idUSTRE7B10AP20111202
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December 6, 2011 7:54pm
nasska

Santa was about his rounds one Xmas eve when he lands on a country estate house.

So down the chimney he goes straight into the bedroom of a nubile 16 year old group A+ wank magnet.

“Oh” she exclaims, “Daddy Christmas! wont you dally a while?”

“No I have a lot to deliver” explains Santa so top tease releases one shoulder strap of her nightie and out falls one boob

“are you sure you wont dally a while” she asks

“no no really I mustn’t I have far to much to deliver”

So the other strap is cast off and the other boob is exposed

“Are you positive I can’t persuade you to dally” says the wench.

“Oh no I have the children to think of, what about all their presents”

At this point the nightie is completly cast aside and she stands there legs akimbo in all her glory

“Now then what is your reply, will you dally?”

“I’ll have to now says Santa I’ll never get back up the chimney!”
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December 6, 2011 8:00pm
wat dabney

And Here’s a 1996 paper on the subject (PDF)

“Downward trends in the frequency of intence Atlantic hurricanes during the past five decades”

Cutting to the chase: “In summary, contrary to many expectations that globally tropical cyclones may become more frequent and/or more intense due to increaing concentrations of greenhouse gases, regionally the Atlantic basin has in recent decades seen a significant trend of fewer intense hurricanes and weaker cyclones overall. In addition, the maximum intensity reached in each year has shown no appreciable change.“
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December 6, 2011 8:05pm
nasska

reid

Thanks for the link….it answers quite a few questions about virus warfare. I can’t imagine that the perpetrators would have gone to so much trouble for one target so there’s sure to be more to come.

What do you suppose blew up the atomic facility in Isafahan? It would seem that Iran’s security must be a little lax….five prayers sessions a day may have warped their minds.
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December 6, 2011 8:17pm
reid

I don’t know nasska but never overlook a sayanim.

It’s quite clear Bibi’s always had a hard-on for it. This article suggests it’s cause he wants to be Churchill.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/03/israeli-pm-investigation-iran-leak

It has deep origins as well…

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/1323/815/World_War_3_A_Forgone_Conclusion.html
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December 6, 2011 9:06pm
nasska

reid
Agreed….Israel has many well placed friends…some anonymous, some not. Netanyahu was sure born at the right time if he wants to emulate Winston Churchill. It is highly likely that Israel/USA are involved with the computer virus at least indirectly. Anything that buggers up Iran’s plans would be jumped at.

Still getting my head around the prediction article. It is not totally implausible & at first glance follows logically. In human affairs there are so many wild cards dealt at random moments that it takes a fair bit of faith to give soothsayers a lot of credit.
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December 6, 2011 9:50pm
reid

Yes there are conflicting stories on that letter from Pike but the man himself was very real. He apparently was the one who wrote Morals and Dogma.
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December 6, 2011 10:09pm
Manolo

The lunacy of an (il)liberal Left elite: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2011/1205/Gov.-Jerry-Brown-implores-California-voters-Please-raise-taxes-on-yourself
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December 7, 2011 6:55am

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