General Debate 12 December 2011

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Tauhei Notts

DavidC at 4.30
The only adjective in the English language to describe a New Zealand five day cricket test win in Australia.
I still have my membership card 1288 as one of New Zealand Cricket’s Unsung Heroes since 1973.
It has been a long long long time since I have been able to write something like this.
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December 12, 2011 6:34pm
Weihana

Falafulu Fisi,

What’s the primary role of the state in your view? The moral justification for its existence?

What I expect from the state is social order, overall prosperity for society, and a high regard for individual freedoms and rights insofar as this is practicable and consistent with our collective interests.

I do not subscribe to simplistic libertarian ideals that are based on flawed assumptions though I did at one time. 😉
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December 12, 2011 6:37pm
Weihana

JamesS,

Simple question: is murder wrong as an absolute?

No, it isn’t. Nothing is absolutely wrong. The notion of absolute wrongness is mystic nonsense. All wrongs are conditionally wrong, that is they are wrong because they oppose a desired goal. For instance, murder is wrong because we want to live and murder undermines that objective.
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December 12, 2011 6:40pm
wat dabney

“a high regard for individual freedoms and rights insofar as this is practicable and consistent with our collective interests. ”

Here’s a clue for you: there is no “collective interest.”

Everything the Nazis and Communists did was compatible with your premise.

Do you begin to see the problem?
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December 12, 2011 6:46pm
Weihana

wat dabney,

The problem comes when when the state goes beyond this and starts trampling over individual rights in the name of society. The end game of such leftism (collectivism) is genocide.

But what are these “individual rights” exactly? A libertarian would have us believe that these rights include the right not to be taxed thus undermining the state’s ability to collect tax to fund a system that investigates, prosecutes and punishes people for murder. Alternatively we are asked to entertain a fantasy that crimes will be dealt with in the absence of taxation to fund what they deem “legitimate” government activities.

The reality, as I see it, is that individual rights are rarely absolute and they can not often exist when they contradict our shared interests.
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December 12, 2011 6:50pm
Weihana

wat dabney,

Here’s a clue for you: there is no “collective interest.”

Rubbish. If two or more people share the same interests then those interests are ipso facto “collective”.

Everything the Nazis and Communists did was compatible with your premise.

Do you begin to see the problem?

I see a problem with your reasoning. You are employing a “slippery slope” fallacy. Nazism, or any form of extreme tyrannical government, is not consistent with our shared interests which are, generally speaking, life, liberty and prosperity.
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December 12, 2011 6:58pm
Viking2

JamesS (246) Says:
December 12th, 2011 at 6:04 pm

One News lost its ‘mojo’ when Philip Sherry stopped reading the news. Discuss.

Well you are welcome to reclaim him.
Often found nearly asleep at the board metting for EBOP.
Regularly needs waking to say yes for the plutocrats.
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December 12, 2011 7:01pm
wat dabney

Weihana,

You are absolutely right.

How would the United States, our guarantor of freedom, have been able to stand up to organised Communist tyranny in the late 20th century if it had not been able to tax its citizens for its armed forces?

The best I have been able to come up with is that a state is legitimate in so far as it seeks to optimise individual liberty. This includes forcible taxation for a police force and army. But when it directs those forces to suppress liberty it becomes illegitimate. The “war on drugs” for example.
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December 12, 2011 7:05pm
Scott Chris

Scientific riddle. (not a silly answer)

I have an egg. How can I tell if it’s raw or cooked without breaking or scanning it, and without any special equipment?
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December 12, 2011 7:10pm
wat dabney

Weihana,

“Rubbish. If two or more people share the same interests then those interests are ipso facto “collective”.

Well yes. But those two people don’t enjoy any rights above and beyond the other 99.9999% of the population. That’s the point.

“I see a problem with your reasoning. You are employing a “slippery slope” fallacy. ”

Not exactly. It’s no fallacy.

Everything the Nazis and Communists did was justified in the name of society.

As soon as you lose sight of individual liberty you are talking about suppressing someone or some people.
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December 12, 2011 7:12pm
MT_Tinman

JamesS (247) Says:
December 12th, 2011 at 6:04 pm
One News lost its ‘mojo’ when Philip Sherry stopped reading the news. Discuss.

Philip Sherry was TV3.

Disgus – ted!
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December 12, 2011 7:17pm
Fletch

ANother great article in e-local magazine about the ‘stone city’ in the Waipoua Forest that predates Maori, and questioning why the studies there have been embargoed until 2063. Media like TVNZ and The Listener have been barred from going in there to look. Well worth the read. A Snippett –

New Zealand was first settled in the 13th century, by Maori, right? Think again.
The first people living in New Zealand weren’t masons or horticulturalists, right? Think again.
For every library, government department, trust and iwi that tells you their version of New Zealand history, there are just as many alternative historians asking challenging questions, not to mention the hundreds of Maori elders whose ancient lore has never been taken into account. Welcome to Part one of In Search of Our Tangata Whenua, in which elocal examines revolutionary ideas about ancient New Zealand.

In 1999, a film crew making a documentary for TVNZ entitled Who Was Here First? was refused entry to a legendary logging road in the Waipoua Forest. The New Zealand Listener attempted to investigate in 2000 but was also denied entry. In the Northern Advocate in August 2011, Mr A Jessop reported that a kuia told him all research regarding Waipoua’s secrets had been destroyed by the local hapu.

If you don’t believe that information has been purposefully concealed from the public, here are two words for you: Waipoua Forest. The ruins of a stone city were discovered there three decades ago, but we’re still waiting for it to be acknowledged. Now, elocal publishes definitive proof that in this corner of western Northland, an old burial pit has pushed the first date of New Zealand settlement back 400 years before the recognised settlement date of 1350 AD.

A few gallant heroes had to fight to get a copy of secret research concealed by an archaeologist who worked on the site for the Department of Conservation, and the results accompanying this article will make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.
Sample 1083, of a cat’s eye shell (Turbo smaragdus) date the shell as having been buried in a midden in 950 AD, when the forest was completely untouched and its canopy concealed a city built of stone.

But wait – secret research? Stone city? Maori only lived in the coastal areas, didn’t they? And sea snails can’t travel inland… How did this all come about?
When Ned Nathan of Te Roroa joined the research team at the ruins in 1997, an official carbon dating report on the work made him exclaim aloud, ‘That’s 500 years before we got here!’ And one of elocal’s witnesses (along with two others present) even heard a carbon dating result of 2825 BC mentioned! Nathan had been an instigator of his hapu’s WAI38 Waitangi Tribunal claim which was settled in 2008, and this is what In Search of Our Tangata Whenua is about: uncovering the truth before it’s buried under final Treaty settlements.

Astronomer and archaeologist Martin Doutré enjoys good relations with Maori, a people who prize oral history, so he’s earned respect from Maori elders for his attempts to determine who should be recognised as New Zealand’s tangata whenua. What shocked Doutré more than the layers of leaf litter covering the collapsed Neolithic dwellings and stone wall at Waipoua are the layers of deceit to cover it all up – and for whom?

You’re probably thinking to yourself right now: Why haven’t I heard about this before?
It’s because there has been a moratorium covertly placed on archaeological research into the site. In 2004, Minister of Conservation Chris Carter was asked just how many archaeological sites such as Waipoua’s were restricted from public visits. The answer will shock you: Carter admitted that 105 sites were embargoed, and that this was because “DOC administers the New Zealand Archaeological Associations Central file” and “file keepers may create sensitive files if this is requested by the site recorder.” A lot of people have been angered by Carter’s admission and that of his Associate Minister at the time, Phillida Bunkle, but let’s not shoot the messengers. The man who decided that Waipoua forest records won’t be available for viewing until 2063 was archaeologist Michael Taylor.

In 1983, Taylor was part of an archaeological survey which found what appeared to be, as illustrated in the photos accompanying this article, etchings in the rock, a map of the dwelling, collapsed dome huts, and stone walls. But instead of the stone city being celebrated, Taylor had some of his research notes locked away until 2063, and Te Roroa were given veto over allowing Tauiwi (non-Maori) access to their records, which, as mentioned before, may have been destroyed.

MORE – http://www.elocal.co.nz/View_Article~Id~485~title~In_Search_of_Our_Tangata_Whenua._Waipoua_Whitewash.html
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December 12, 2011 7:17pm
Pauleastbay

Just walked past the television and saw Garner and some other chap being interviewed by Campbell.

You would think that the National Government was some sort of aberration, a quirk in the polls not one that has just given labour its biggest pasting since Adam and that labour will be back in three years to take their rightful place.

Its unbloody believable. So take heed labour wankers, you will not even get a sniff until at least 2017 and I wouldn’t be confident even then.

All fantasies greatfully accepted in comments from labourites about this and that – but the honest to god truth is ,you are fucked, you can’t even sort out a leader.
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December 12, 2011 7:19pm
Armotur

Just watched TV3 Campbell Live, Garner & Gower offering their views on the Labour Leader issue. I totally lost it, overcome by the head nodding, arm wiggling, puppet like action by G & G. They seem wired. Better than the Muppet show. What do you think of it so far! Rubbish!
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December 12, 2011 7:21pm
reid

As soon as you lose sight of individual liberty you are talking about suppressing someone or some people.

One needs to recognise that both sides do it.

The Russians have a joke: “Under Capitalism, man exploits man while under Communism, it’s the other way round.”

If one doesn’t understand that both sides do it, one will never understand how it happens for the destructive operations they carry out are lost in the stream of consciousness.

They do it to change society by destroying the four sources of our human identity and meaning: race, religion (God), nation and family (gender.) They do this by creating one race, one religion, one gender and one government. At the same time, our culture is increasingly rootless, depraved and meaningless.

Look around you.
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December 12, 2011 7:25pm
wat dabney

The whole point and beauty of Capitalism is that it is the only “system” compatible with liberty. It is the only “system” not based on coercion and violence.
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December 12, 2011 7:28pm
Pauleastbay

Reid

Our “culture” is presently, the best educated, the most enlightened, the most confident, the best informed that has ever been.

We live in remarkbale times, given our access to information, our ability to travel and experience different things. No one is destroying my identity, or my nation, I am confidant of who am and what I beleive in, no “wee elected committe man ” can take any of these things away from me.

We are bloody fortunate , we live in New Zealand which is a blessing in itself, it is just so few appreciate how wonderful it is here. Look around you.
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December 12, 2011 7:32pm
ste3e

Immagant

You misunderstood what I said.

You said “The fact the Palestinian authority and Hamas openly preach genocide, does that no worry you at all?”

I said that both this (the actions of Hamas) and the secret missions undertaken by the Israelis worries me. You seem to accept that the Israelis have every right to toss Palestinians out of Israel. To me, these actions smack of Hitler’s kicking Jews out of Germany prior the final solution, in neither case are they (morally) acceptable.
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December 12, 2011 7:33pm
reid

As an example of what I just said, this is how Congress is currently considering s1867:

http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/2447-Indefinite-military-detention-for-U-S-citizens-now-in-the-hands-of-a-secretive-conference-committee-

And this is the US congress, not the Russian one. For those who don’t know, this bill in its current form allows indefinite arrest, detention and torture without trial of not just you and I but also – quelle horreur – US citizens on US soil, by the US military.
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December 12, 2011 7:38pm
wat dabney

“We are bloody fortunate , we live in New Zealand which is a blessing in itself, it is just so few appreciate how wonderful it is here. Look around you.”

We are the lottery winners of life. We live at a time and in a place which is sheer bloody Nirvana.

A time of unsurpassed peace and plenty.

Even the “poorest” are beneficiaries of this astonishing progress.

Remember that next time greedy, ambitious politicians try to grab power and wealth for themselves. They are cunts.
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December 12, 2011 7:41pm
reid

Paul, I’m thinking of the changes over the decades, the gradual shifts to social issues we never had before and projecting into the future what it will be increasingly like for those not yet born.

I’m not seeing a good thing with even more vapid shallow media, dumbed down education at all levels, rabid almost insane obsession with celeb pap, stuff like that is what changes people.

So it’s not about you and I here today mate.

We’re fine. I agree. Both of us probably know how to live a good life and have a very good time indeed and how many beans make five. However even today there are plenty of sheeple who don’t and they’re getting more numerous by the day.

The central point is you have to ignore the left-right sideshow to see this, like I said, both sides do it and it happens over decades and generations, not over years. Hulun’s seeds won’t be in full bloom till 2030, for example even if some of us can already see some green shoots. But if you look only at today, you’ll never see it.
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December 12, 2011 7:49pm
lofty

@pauleastbay…
I could not agree more Paul re the best of times.

The biggest disapointment for me is the terribly scaled back space explorer program, just when “we” are on the cusp of monumental discovery.

Did you know that the damned American capitalistic pigs are on the verge of mechanical self repair? Oh yes my boy, a concrete bridge will be able to repair itself if subjected to degredation or damage.

Fan bloody tastic.

God if only we could all revert to living in Aotea square, and opposing all advancement, but live off that same advancement..life would be bliss.
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December 12, 2011 7:52pm
wat dabney

Power-hungry lefties are reduced from bleating about poverty – which has been abolished under Capitalism – to equality.

This just shows it was never about about poverty and had everything to do with personal power and ambition.

Show me a lefty politician and I’ll show you someone happy to piss all over the “poor” in the name of the “poor.”
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December 12, 2011 7:57pm
nasska

A noted sex therapist realizes that people often lie about
the frequency of their encounters, so he devises a test to
tell for certain how often someone has sex.

To prove his theory, he fills up an auditorium with people,
and goes down the line, asking each person to smile. Using
the size of the person’s smile, the therapist is able to
guess accurately until he comes to the last man in line,
who is grinning from ear to ear.

“Twice a day,” the therapist guesses, but is surprised
when the man says no. “Once a day, then?” Again the answer
is no. “Twice a week?” “No.” “Twice a month?” “No.” The
man finally says yes when the doctor gets to “once a year”.

The therapist is angry that his theory isn’t working, and
asks the man, “What the heck are you so happy about?”

The man answers, “Tonight’s the night!”
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December 12, 2011 8:01pm
nickb

Yes blackcaps! Hopefully a sign of our future talent coming through instead of solely the decline of Australian cricket.
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December 12, 2011 8:01pm
Pauleastbay

Reid

There are people and the sheeple, the people have had the sense to reject labour like never before in 2008 and 2011 and will again in 2014.

You can fool some of the people some of the time but not most of the people hardly at all.

The Beatles and the Stones were the end of the world but at the end of the 60’s man walked on the moon, remarkable.

OUr media is shallow but information is available not like the stringent controls that newspapers operated under in the 50’s and 60’s. There will be an old reporter on here somewhere who will know of the censorship that went on not bias but censorship.

Clark will be lucky to be a footnote in history in 20 years, the reason being her 9 years achieved nothing, she actually did nothing, her governments did nothing, pissing people off does not get you into history books.
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December 12, 2011 8:03pm
ste3e

wat dabney

This time and place is a bubble of both a stupid economic system and borrowed environmental time and both are ready to collapse. A stupid economic system because it is based upon centuries old supply of cash been rolled and rolled into use upon use and constrained by the powerful whose power is derived from the constraint. The financial system is a human artifact and it should function to enable the expression of humanity.

As for the blessings, I saw an Australian Aboriginal woman sitting in the dirt with her mokopuna discussing the poverty she saw in a recent visit to New York. She considered herself blessed and that had nothing to do with money in the bank. I am sure Aborigines throughout time have felt themselves blessed even prior to the benefits and bashings.
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December 12, 2011 8:04pm
lofty

@ste3e Whatever..

@wat..comment of the week nailed it in one.
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December 12, 2011 8:06pm
Pauleastbay

ste3e

What Lofty said…. just how sure are you? speaking of course for all the abo’s who have ever lived .

Feel free to bleed all over the key board but that would be the worst bit of shit anyone has posted here this year…sitting in the dirt…..discussing poverty…….

as you do with ya grand kids, FFS
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December 12, 2011 8:13pm
Scott Chris

Answer to scientific riddle:

[I have an egg. How can I tell if it’s raw or cooked without breaking or scanning it, and without any special equipment?]

You spin the egg on a hard flat surface, then stop it, but immediately let go. If it continues to spin, albeit more slowly, it is raw. (liquid center still rotating)

Cunning huh? Try it out…. it works.
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December 12, 2011 8:14pm
Viking2

tonights entertainment. hahahaha

http://www.ping.be/~merce007/maaike/penis_song.html
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December 12, 2011 8:16pm
wat dabney

“This time and place is a bubble of both a stupid economic system and borrowed environmental time and both are ready to collapse.”

Well, they’re not. It all comes down to productivity, and productivity under Capitalism is amazing.

And you know the really amazing thing? I, as a worker, benefit most from this astonishing increase in productivity – even though I work less hard that most people in history!

It’s largely a question of capital accumulation. I work for companies that wield huge mounts of capital. But, in a competitive market, they have to bid for my skills. So most of the benefit of those millions accrues to me! I know!

“A stupid economic system because it is based upon centuries old supply of cash been rolled and rolled into use upon use and constrained by the powerful whose power is derived from the constraint. The financial system is a human artifact and it should function to enable the expression of humanity. ”

You literally make no sense whatsoever.

Every worker benefit from the accrual of capital. It’s the difference between working with a shovel and working with a JCB digger. You work less hard with the JCB but you get paid ten times the amount of the shove-wielder. And the investor doesn’t get a greater percentage under either scenario.
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December 12, 2011 8:16pm
Viking2

I was going through a few magazines the other day down at the local Mosque.
I was really enjoying myself.
Then the rifle jammed.
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December 12, 2011 8:20pm
Scott Chris

nickb says:- “Yes blackcaps! Hopefully a sign of our future talent coming through instead of solely the decline of Australian cricket.”

Yes, well played NZ cricketers (god ‘black caps’ is a dog of a name).

But don’t hold your breath waiting for the next victory. A dodgy wicket is always a great leveler, and the green seamers are rarer these days. Usually flattens out after the first morning with the drop-ins.
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December 12, 2011 8:21pm
Viking2

Aussie is going to have a few doggy wickets this summer. Racehorse owner today told me all the tracks over there are rated heavy at the present time. rare occurrence.
Lots of heavy rain, some of which we are about to share again.
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December 12, 2011 8:24pm
nasska

Hand washing.

A ginger’s guide to safe hygienic sex.
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December 12, 2011 8:27pm
nasska

V2

…”Lots of heavy rain, some of which we are about to share again”…..

And the grass keeps growing……checked the lamb schedule lately?
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December 12, 2011 8:32pm
Viking2

no but diary production seems to be running well.
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December 12, 2011 8:36pm
ste3e

OK let’s cry a river over your new born. Do we do this or not? If we do then there is something other than the pursuit of wealth and prestige. If there is this something other then how many more somethings are there in the possible lives that we might lead? Obviously people do inexplicable things with their lives if you try to explain all lives in terms of pursuit of wealth and prestige. All of these things are something other; glimpses by others of something they must pursue regardless of the fact it leads not to wealth or prestige, or at least, irrespective of the fact. As an artifact, the economic system should be there support people following their bliss. Further, it should lean upon and profit from these doings of humans. Which, to an extent it does; take the life of Van Gough whose productivity earns France (etc) millions per year.

The problem with the right is the constraint of power is used to dictate the forms life must take to be acceptable/profitable, it undermines the connection humans have to what is their bliss and replaces it with what they must do. Once bliss is severed and replaced with servitude you get alienation, tautologically. Alientated peoples living in your community do not row for your team therefore you end up spending increasing amounts of money trying to control them. Not only is it immoral (in the strict deontological sense of that word), but expensive.
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December 12, 2011 8:39pm
Nostalgia-NZ

4 days was enough to knock the aussies down with a comfortable 7 runs to spare.
Such a pity they couldn’t keep to the task a little longer.
Poor, poor aussies.
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December 12, 2011 8:43pm
Viking2

Oh dear here go the Blessed again. Done for their sexual proclivities thay have now turned to fraud.

Catholic Church accused of rorting multibillion-dollar jobs scheme
Linton Besser
December 12, 2011

INVESTIGATION

THE Catholic Church’s employment arm has been systematically rorting the taxpayer-funded welfare-to-work program, defrauding large sums from the multibillion-dollar scheme.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/catholic-church-accused-of-rorting-multibilliondollar-jobs-scheme-20111211-1opty.html#ixzz1gIuRQ77I
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December 12, 2011 8:43pm
wat dabney

ste3e,

There is indeed “something other than the pursuit of wealth and prestige.”

Under Capitalism – i.e. the absence of coercion – you are absolutely free to pursue your own happiness. You can be a beach bum if you wish. Surf all day. Whatever you like.

But if you pursue non-materialistic dreams then please do not expect others to be forced to subsidise the inevitable material inequality.

You understand?
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December 12, 2011 8:48pm
Falafulu Fisi

Weihana said…
Rubbish. If two or more people share the same interests then those interests are ipso facto “collective”.

Wei, you’re wrong. That’s still individual but bottom up which is what exactly the principle of (general) self-organized (or specifically SOC – self organized criticality) is all about. SOC is a bottom up process and not top-down centralized/collectivised system that you’re currently worshiping. You seemed to be confused about top-down (socialist collectivism) as opposed to bottom-up (free markets) in SOC interaction. Do you understand the difference of bottom up and top down? It seems that you’re confused about if more than one then it is collective. That’s true (semantically) but that’s not what Wat was talking about.

Here is some useful reading for you so you can digest and understand how a society should be run (a bottom up rather than top down – as in central control socialism). An important point that libertarianz had pointed out for over a hundred years and thick politicians and their idiot voters like yourself still can’t get their head around the Adam Smith invisible hand principle, which is an undeniable fact.

Abstract:
============
….study the properties of a Minority Game with evolution realized by using genetic crossover to modify fixed-length decision-making strategies of agents. Although the agents in this evolutionary game act selfishly by trying to maximize their own performances only, it turns out that the whole society will eventually be rewarded optimally. This “Invisible Hand” effect is what Adam Smith over two centuries ago expected to take place in the context of free market mechanism. However, this behaviour of the society of agents is realized only under idealized conditions, where all agents are utilizing the same efficient evolutionary mechanism. If on the other hand part of the agents are adaptive, but not evolutionary, the system does not reach optimum performance, which is also the case if part of the evolutionary agents form a uniformly acting “cartel”.

Download : Invisible hand effect in an evolutionary minority game model

Note that the MG (minority game) cited above is a SOC process. There are more theoretical work and empirical studies that I can cite here for you to read further on the topic, so indicate back here and I’ll give you a list.
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December 12, 2011 8:54pm
lofty

Wat you are on fire tonight ,

Ste3e when you come through the university of life look us up!

I admire your conviction lad or ladess, but with age really does come wisdom.

I was just musing…I was you once upon a time.
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December 12, 2011 8:58pm
reid

The problem with the right is the constraint of power is used to dictate the forms life must take to be acceptable/profitable, it undermines the connection humans have to what is their bliss and replaces it with what they must do. Once bliss is severed and replaced with servitude you get alienation, tautologically. Alientated peoples living in your community do not row for your team therefore you end up spending increasing amounts of money trying to control them. Not only is it immoral (in the strict deontological sense of that word), but expensive.

Er.

I see.

…

The “right” doesn’t undermine the connection “people have to what is their bliss,” steve or ste3e3 or whatever the fuck it is, they just don’t.

The “right” are the founding fathers of America, that’s where the “right” get their values from. The reason we complain about the left so much is we truly really for a fucking fact believe the lefties are all about big govt and big govt means less liberty and we believe that’s wrong since its inherent in the human spirit to be capable, creative and successful all by oneself if one is just left the fuck alone to get on with it.

We don’t believe the lefty answer which as we see it involves ultimately no-one ever walking again since mothers will see their babies struggling to crawl, think it’s cruel and get one of those state-funded walking cradles so the poor thing never has to even learn to walk. That’s what the “right” think lefties would ultimately love to have. A cradle to grave wrap-around fluffy cotton-wool type of system and fuck the cost because that’s not important, we’re talking about people’s lives.

Now the “right” think this is not just mental it totally abrogates said human dignity et al as elucidated above so that’s why we don’t want more, we want less. Not because we don’t like people but because we don’t agree with the left’s premise for it’s clearly mental, as anyone can plainly see.
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December 12, 2011 9:07pm
nasska

V2

I guess with the altar boys being now off limits, regular trips to Thailand must be putting a fair bit of stress on the church budget.
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December 12, 2011 9:09pm
Other_Andy

In the UK
Over-reliance on wind farms ‘will lead to power cuts’

A report by the Adam Smith Institute and the Scientific Alliance says that wind farms cannot meet the need for energy, leading to “a crisis by the middle of this decade”.
The report comes as the head of the National Trust said plans to install turbines along the coast of Britain were simply an expensive way of “giving rich people lots more money”. Simon Jenkins, the chairman of the charity, attacked the “lunacy” of the industry, which is meant to provide a third of Britain’s electricity by 2020.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8949993/Over-reliance-on-wind-farms-will-lead-to-power-cuts.html
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December 12, 2011 9:16pm
reid

Yes O_A, they’re idiots aren’t they.

They project 30,000 by 2020 most of them offshore. Admittedly the Atlantic is a most promising place for them but they need to get those bearings sorted so they don’t keep having to shut down in low winds.

But why? They’re destroying Britain’s landscape.

For what?

The mythical AGW phantasmogram.
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December 12, 2011 9:22pm
reid

BTW, something to listen for: heard on Checkpoint’s Maori bulletin tonight a favourable report on Charter Schools being good for Maori.

Watch for that. That’s very powerful if played right and by that I mean lots of plain true actual and provable demonstrable Charter School runs on the ground in the minds of lots of Maori parents by 2015.

I mean it. If this is played right, it gives the MP a huge wedge to use against Mana for what has Hone done except talk, in 2015?

It also undercuts Hone’s message of unreasonable racial and communist distortion for which a lot have ears.

It does the same re: the lefty educationalist’s obsession with Te Tiriti.

I mean imagine if Maori were doing really really really well out of Charter Schools, what the classroom chatter would be in 2015.

But my prediction is no politician will notice and this opportunity will sink without trace.
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December 12, 2011 9:44pm
Other_Andy

@Reid

I am worried about New Zealand.
The windfarms are destroying the the famous New Zealand landscape, they are a bloody eye-sore.
And for what?
Hasn’t anybody learned anything from the debacle in Spain.
Public protest in countries (Like the Netherlands) that have been developing large scale wind farms is growing.
Why can’t we learn from the mistakes of others?
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December 12, 2011 9:53pm
reid

Why can’t we learn from the mistakes of others?

I think we have to try something new O_A. Learn from mistakes and not repeat them, but try something new.

What I suggest is we tie all the Gween caucus members to turbine blades in the most scenic areas and use them for tourist videos.

This would give us all a bit of a laugh, publicise NZ, the Gween caucus members and be a good use of the machine for a bit of harmless fun.

So according to my calculation that’s a 4-way win.

Don’t be worried anymore O_A, I’ve got lots more ideas like that.

Re: cruelty to Gween members of caucus, no worries, they tell me, anything for the eviwonment, so it’s all go there!
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December 12, 2011 10:07pm
ste3e

wat

Outright contradiction. You are free but you will be left to starve therefore the system promotes freedom.

But keep up now, you missed the real objections to my argument. First, if every one followed their bliss then no one would take out the trash, dig the potatoes, etc. Second, many people do follow their bliss and get paid well for doing so therefore it is not the case that the system excludes the following of bliss. But it is in your interest to miss these objections because they reveal the fundamental flaws and injustices of the current economic system. Why should those doing what they wish be paid in the millions while those doing what they do not want be paid minimum wage and find themselves forced into their stations by poverty and coercion? Freedom is only assured by offering the most to those who do the jobs that others do not want; thereby people are free to choose their bliss or the money. At the moment we have this atrocious situation where people are forced into servitude, to which many rebel and cannot be converted but only incarcerated, while the right wing lies to the effect that the system is based on freedom and aspiration (I am aspiring to be the best shit taster I can be)… albeit now wat and co seem to be revealing their teeth and threatening that this simply how the system is so suffer it.

Which is exactly the point I have been arguing against. The current system is an artifact, a product of human invention. If we do not wish this artifact to force upon us forms of life that are immoral and stupid then we should change the system. The reason we do not is not because we cannot, but because those entrenched do what they can to ensure we do not. They lie into the teeth of scientific claims that prove continuance of the system will like as not extinguish human life; they lie in bed at night and sleep soundly to the cries of hunger and behaviors enacted out of the stresses of the existing system. Against the gale of protests they offer up flimsy arguments forgetting that humans have reason by right of birth, which reason sees through the bullshit strewn. Obliviously they pat their stupid selves on their backs for their greed and ‘success’ and wonder why they can’t convince the plebs.
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December 12, 2011 10:24pm
Falafulu Fisi

ste3e how much do you know about economics? Your ranting about economics here seems to me as uninformed.

ste3e said…

Which is exactly the point I have been arguing against. The current system is an artifact, a product of human invention. If we do not wish this artifact to force upon us forms of life that are immoral and stupid then we should change the system.

What system do you want to change it to? I suspect that you won’t have a fuck’n clue? C’mon, state what sort of system that it should be changed to? Just a few lines.
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December 12, 2011 10:29pm
ste3e

Reid

I agree. The right does champion freedom, but it fails to grasp the paradoxical nature of the world in which we live. It is a paradox that the rich should forgo what they earn so opportunity be provided for others to be free to explore their creativity. Thereby is the health of society and diversity ensured. Therefore night classes, etc, should be funded because they provide opportunity; therefore student union fees should be compulsory because it ensures opportunity. Pretty much every policy National enacted previous term has reduced opportunity for those already poor in opportunity, while increasing opportunity for those already wealthy in opportunity.

The other paradox is that success does not mean one has found the path, it simply means one has found one’s path. To dictate to those the path you have found is not enlightening to others unless, by coincidence, that happens to also be their path.
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December 12, 2011 10:43pm
reid

What system do you want to change it to?

I want to change it to where I’m in charge Falafulu but they won’t let me and it’s not fair.
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December 12, 2011 10:45pm
reid

It is a paradox

ste3e read my first comment on this thread.

It’s not a paradox.

Your issue seems to be you look at an economy like a machine whereas really it’s made up of people but if it’s made of people why is it you try to run it like a machine?

It’s a bit late to start now tonight along that road but remind me anytime later in the coming days or weeks and I’ll expand.
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December 12, 2011 10:50pm
Falafulu Fisi

ste3e said…

Pretty much every policy National enacted previous term has reduced opportunity for those already poor in opportunity, while increasing opportunity for those already wealthy in opportunity.

Can you name one out of those evil policies? So, be specific.
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December 12, 2011 10:53pm
Other_Andy

“It is a paradox that the rich should forgo what they earn so opportunity be provided for others to be free to explore their creativity. Thereby is the health of society and diversity ensured. Therefore night classes, etc, should be funded because they provide opportunity; therefore student union fees should be compulsory because it ensures opportunity.”

A perfect example of a Non-Sequitur ad infinitum.

Others ARE free to explore their creativity.
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December 12, 2011 10:56pm
ste3e

Falafulu Fisi

People are analog (they are continuums with the world and society), but governments can only reason about them by digitizing them (putting them into conceptual boxes). Every person could be conceived (digitized) as a double entry bookkeeping account (what they own/their interactions with others that changes their balance). Every double entry entity can be placed in a parallel processing program whereby it interacts with other double entry entitys that reflect actual interactions.

Now we reconfigure the factors that count as entrys and include predispositions, likes, abilities, and facilitate interactions with like and complementary entitys; no win no foul. All entities are paid a community wage and taxed appropriately (heavily) to ensure a society all can be proud of.

Governments themselves become entitys in the larger world stage. They have sovereignty over printing money and they find the balance between keeping their currency valued appropriately to other currencies to ensure the purchase of offshore goods (export revenue becomes rather irrelevant to any but the those whose bliss it is to pursue such but is nonetheless desirable as it helps); balancing the supply of money internally to ensure people can pursue their goals to meet demands (does not include pursuit of goals that meet bliss which are covered by the community wage) while not saturating markets and therefore devaluing other’s assets (will be voted out if they do this); balancing internal money to stop inflation (largely related to the first) by printing money to create assets of equal or greater worth then the money printed). The last being a fundamental absurdity of the current system; why cannot NZ as a sovereign country not print the money required to meet the demand to rebuild Christchurch at a stipulated cost and immediately employ those hanging about waiting for work?

The most important points are:
a) no win no foul; if any interaction suggested by computer software does not work for either party for any reason the participants are absolutely free to reject it
b) everybody is a paid a community wage so there is no coercion in the system to undermine (a)
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December 12, 2011 11:22pm
ste3e

reid

These are quite different. The freedom of the rich to keep their earnings and not pay welfare means poverty for the dispossessed and an inability on their part to provide any creative input into society, especially if they become dead. Whereas the dictate that the wealthy pay tax to provide opportunity for even the dispossessed means creative input from both the taxed wealthy and dispossessed becomes reality.
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December 12, 2011 11:31pm
Griff

Many creative artist only become famous when they die.The state not supporting them hastens their death. As such is a mechanism to insure the true recognition that they deserve
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December 13, 2011 12:40am
Weihana

# Falafulu Fisi (1,438) Says:
December 12th, 2011 at 8:54 pm

An important point that libertarianz had pointed out for over a hundred years and thick politicians and their idiot voters like yourself still can’t get their head around the Adam Smith invisible hand principle, which is an undeniable fact.

You appear to be labouring under the delusion that people only disagree with you because they “can’t get their head around” some idea that you think you understand.

Few would disagree with the idea of the invisible hand. But to what extent it works is debateable. It isn’t necessarily always there to achieve socially desirable outcomes. Sometimes it is not there at all and this is the case where negative externalities (e.g. pollution) are not paid or compensated for through free market transactions because the affected third party is not a party to the transaction.

Moreover, the article you cited clearly points out that the optimal outcome for society is only reached under idealized conditions, conditions which are “rarely met in real-world economic systems”. One wonders if you actually read what you reference or whether you simply refer to them because they may vaguely appear to support what you are saying.

It is clear that these idealized conditions do not apply to reality. We are not all agents “equally capable” of modifying our actions. We are not even all rational despite what our capabilities may be. The invisible hand is still an important idea that people should appreciate and understand, but if you do not appreciate the limitations of the idea then it’s questionable whether you understand it at all.
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December 13, 2011 2:26pm

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