General Debate 30 November 2011

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Lipo

Occupy Protesting
Will be interesting to see how the court rules on this and perhaps set a precedent for occupying.

I can imagine people wanting to camp on all sorts of public spaces were they were not previously allowed. An example being a public park next to a beach. Council or police used to come along and move these people on if they tried to camp

Can you now camp were you like and if council arrives to move you along you, you point them at your protest sign and claim you are protesting under the Bill of Rights
Stay as long as you want to?
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November 30, 2011 8:11am
Pete George

The lack of likely representation from the south in Labour’s leadership concerns me – Labour leadership in Dunedin.

Of course Standardistas attacked me for expressing a view and pointed out some of the Aucklanders and the Wellingtonian have lived in the south, but they don’t now and don’t appear to be advocates of the south.

And more pointed comments on the shaky hold that Labour has in Dunedin South.

None of which will be Labour’s fault.
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November 30, 2011 8:14am
JamesS

This is an interesting story http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/election-2011/6058068/Rookie-MPs-take-grand-tour

I wonder how long it will be before gullible rookie MPs get seduced by so called “Beltway insiders” – glorified messenger boys and junior assistants pretending they have the ear of the Cabinet.

Astounding how many new people actually fall for it every three years.
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November 30, 2011 8:18am
Manolo

Europe on the brink (again): http://news.yahoo.com/pressure-builds-eurozone-ponders-debt-solutions-171745129.html
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November 30, 2011 8:51am
Manolo

Meanwhile, Governor Christie slams the Messiah: http://thehill.com/video/in-the-news/195823-christie-rips-obama-for-supercommittee-failure-what-the-hell-are-we-paying-you-for
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November 30, 2011 8:53am
wally

Saw our Penny on TV1 news last night as spokesperson for the occupy crowd. Does she have a proper job or are we taxpayers funding her “lifestyle”?
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November 30, 2011 9:42am
oldpark

Best comments i heard on the sale of the 49% SALE OF SHARES IN POWER COMPANIES came from Larry Williams from Newstalk ZB. NZ SUPERFUND,ACC ,IWIS.To buy the lot.All share buyers would be NZ based.Larry called it A SLAM DUNK,if that was the result.Wonder what the wailing banshees would say then.Maybe next time with a formula like that the Nats would get a landslide victory.
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November 30, 2011 9:58am
labours a joke

I counted 3 cats in her hair..maybe 4..
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November 30, 2011 10:10am
Murray

If you missed Penny on the news there’s a rerun here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkMvKeX7erI
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November 30, 2011 10:17am
travellerev

So what do J P Morgan Chase, Deutsche bank, Goldman Sachs and John Key have in common. Oh oops, a collapsing Bank of America and the collapse of the Reserve currency. So now is the time to loot the world by buying real world assets, preferably for cents on the dollar, with the afore mention soon to be dumped and worthless toiletpaper… I mean US dollar.

And aren’t they lucky John Key can help them here!

http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/with-bank-of-america-on-the-verge-of-breaching-5-00-my-question-of-the-day-is/
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November 30, 2011 11:39am
Elaycee

“I counted 3 cats in her hair..maybe 4..”

Wasn’t it a skunk?
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November 30, 2011 11:44am
Elaycee

Clearly its time out at Body Odour Central… and trivialrev has found a free internet connection so he / she can make more bollocks accusations about the PM.

Scroll…

Scroll…

Ends.

8)
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November 30, 2011 11:53am
big bruv

travellerev

We won, you lost, get over it.

Enjoy your next three years in opposition.
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November 30, 2011 12:39pm
RightNow

Travellerev, you should do a bit of investigation into this:
http://www.wnd.com/files/Obama_LFBC_Report_final_draft.pdf
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November 30, 2011 12:43pm
Nookin

The leak plugged?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/6061417/SFO-worker-on-forgery-charges
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November 30, 2011 12:52pm
Scott Chris

Elaycee’s contribution to GD today:

>>”Wasn’t it a skunk?”

>>”Clearly its time out at Body Odour Central… and trivialrev has found a free internet connection so he / she can make more bollocks accusations about the PM.”

Par for the course really. What an asshole.
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November 30, 2011 1:04pm
Elaycee

Ah – the self confessed narc / nonce / pimp / has arrived to bless us with his / her erudite musings….

Diddums.
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November 30, 2011 1:08pm
Rat

Big Bruv @12.39

Correction BB

Travellerev lost, you were massacred
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November 30, 2011 1:21pm
tom hunter

At last we can return to sanity. The hustings are over, the bunting is down, the mad hysteria is at an end. After the chaos of a general election we can return to normal…..

Cough!

Hookay. The following are two pieces of humor.

The first is an example to all those who want to improve their TradeMe listings: … get ready to punch snow in the throat (Yes!, it’s a real advertisement).

The second are two satellite pictures of an Iranian missile base before and after being wasted by a gigantic explosion. I guess the Green Movement has finally tired of getting shot down in the streets. It would be nice to think Obambi and Mossad are also involved but I think the former has no interest in starting a war and the latter’s not quite that interested – yet.
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November 30, 2011 1:24pm
Manolo

Already preparing for the worst: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/25ab975a-1a9f-11e1-ae14-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1f8zo5Hxn
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November 30, 2011 1:31pm
Manolo

Is the Dutch water woman in disguise? Both are fixated with their respective monomaniacal obsession.
Cookoo, cookoo.
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November 30, 2011 1:33pm
travellerev

Big Bruv,

I didn’t loose at all. I made sure my vote counted for something.
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November 30, 2011 1:39pm
thedavincimode

Dear oh deary me Scott.

How far you have fallen from those lofty heights. 😉

Stalker: CHECK 🙂
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November 30, 2011 2:19pm
RightNow

Humpty Dumpty had a great fall….
http://www.alice-in-wonderland.net/books/2chpt6.html
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November 30, 2011 2:34pm
Pete George

The internet taking over from the old phone system? The latest phone book is only 2/3 the size of last year’s.
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November 30, 2011 4:00pm
thedavincimode

PG

“The latest phone book is only 2/3 the size of last year’s”

A bit like Liebore’s new caucus.

(Too hard to resist, 😉 )
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November 30, 2011 4:04pm
Other_Andy

Global Warming\ Climate Change

As with religion, it is presided over by a caste of spectacularly unattractive people pretending to an obscure form of knowledge that promises to make the seas retreat and the winds abate. As with religion, it comes with an elaborate list of virtues, vices and indulgences. As with religion, its claims are often non-falsifiable, hence the convenience of the term “climate change” when thermometers don’t oblige the expected trend lines. As with religion, it is harsh toward skeptics, heretics and other “deniers.” And as with religion, it is susceptible to the earthly temptations of money, power, politics, arrogance and deceit.

From: The Great Global Warming Fizzle The climate religion fades in spasms of anger and twitches of boredom.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203935604577066183761315576.html?mod=rss_opinion_main
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November 30, 2011 5:39pm
Pauleastbay

Knuckle dragger ‘occupy’ protester on the news just now, …it’ll take a hard policeman to get rid of me…..

Mate, there’ll be a queue to give you a hiding.

And the moron Penny was on the news this morning as a spokesman for the protestors. The retards that voted for her should be removed form the electoral role for good, jesus.
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November 30, 2011 6:11pm
reid

So if you’re a man who uses a WiFi laptop a lot, let’s hope you already have children.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/29/us-laptop-sperm-idUSTRE7AR2FO20111129
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November 30, 2011 6:31pm
thedavincimode

“…it’ll take a hard policeman to get rid of me…..”

Hmm. Upon reflection eastbay, I’m sure you’ll agree that quotation marks can often be severely under-rated.
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November 30, 2011 6:37pm
reid

Has anyone noticed things aren’t too good right now?

http://rt.com/news/missile-tossing-iran-israel-457/

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27584

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/iran-to-hit-turkey-if-nuclear-program-targeted-by-israel-u-s-general-says-1.397862

Not to mention Pak-US relations

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8919960/Pakistan-permanently-closes-borders-to-Nato-after-air-strike.html

nor Syria, of which:

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2011/11/28/the-obama-doctrine-imperialism-masked-humanitarian-interventionism.html
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November 30, 2011 6:54pm
nasska

reid

Iran are upping the talk….I wonder how far they are from having the means to back it up.

I also followed Tom Hunter’s link from his 1.24pm showing the recent damage to a military site. What do you see as behind the recent spate of Iranian own goals? My immediate thoughts were haste or espionage.
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November 30, 2011 7:42pm
nasska

Fresh out of business school, the young man answered a want ad for an accountant. Now he was being interviewed by a very nervous man who ran a small business that he had started himself. “I need someone with an accounting degree,” the man said. “But mainly, I’m looking for someone to do my worrying for me.”

“Excuse me?” the accountant said.

“I worry about a lot of things,” the man said. “But I don’t want to have to worry about money.
Your job will be to take all the money worries off my back.”

“I see,” the accountant said. “And how much does the job pay?”

“I’ll start you at eighty thousand.”

“Eighty thousand dollars!” the accountant exclaimed. “How can such a small business afford a sum like that?”

“That,” the owner said, “is your first worry.”
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November 30, 2011 8:00pm
reid

Well they’re finally responding to years of ratcheting it up from the other side nasska, that’s how I see it.

Israel, US/UK and the global media for some reason determined ages ago just after Iraq fell in fact that Iran was Public Enemy #1 and slowly slowly spread a story here a story there an innuendo here an innuendo there.

What I don’t get is if Israel has a reported 350 nukes how come it’s the end of the world if Iran gets even one?

Re: the explosion it killed the head of Iran’s Missile program along with 17 others.

I wonder what Israel would do if an explosion killed the head of its Missile program or say, the chief scientist at Dimona?
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November 30, 2011 8:00pm
nasska

The reason I brought it up reid was something I read recently. The Sunni/Shia split in the Muslim World doesn’t get as much press as I think it deserves. Certainly there is little love lost between the two factions.

You don’t think that there is a possibility that:

1) Israel may have formed a covert alliance with one or more Sunni nations to stir up Iran

or

2) Some Arab nations may be stirring things up by doing some military moonlighting knowing that Israel will probably cop the blame?
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November 30, 2011 8:18pm
Other_Andy

reid Says:

“What I don’t get is if Israel has a reported 350 nukes how come it’s the end of the world if Iran gets even one? ”

The difference is, Israel would only (if at all) use them as a very last resort.
I don’t think the mullahs would be that restrained.
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November 30, 2011 8:22pm
reid

Israel may have formed a covert alliance with one or more Sunni nations to stir up Iran

Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, UAE are Israel’s main Arab allies and I’m not sure Israel or US/UK is capable of dreaming up sufficiently strong propaganda to convince the Iraqi Sunni’s to hop on board so no, none of those can affect Iran, except Saudi, but that would have serious consequences for her standing in the Muslim world as the guardian of Mecca, for Iran is seen as the purist Islamist state amongst Muslims, engendering huge respect and an attack on her is regarded not very favourably at all by many if not most Muslims.

Some Arab nations may be stirring things up by doing some military moonlighting knowing that Israel will probably cop the blame?

False flags happen all the time. One of them just happened in Libya and another’s just starting in Syria. Normally it’s not the Arabs fighting amongst each other, it’s other powers playing them like pawns.
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November 30, 2011 8:34pm
reid

The difference is, Israel would only (if at all) use them as a very last resort.

O_A that’s only a supposition. You can’t guarantee that. Remember that politics plays out in people’s minds before it hits the streets and if you lived in the ME and you were an Arab and had watched Israel do what it has over the decades how would you feel about “relying” on that?

Like I said, why shouldn’t Iran have them, if Israel has? That’s what stops the “reliance” and makes it real: MAD and only MAD. What’s wrong with that? Why isn’t that fair?

I don’t think the mullahs would be that restrained.

Iran is not a toy puppet country run by a mad dictator like NK is, and he hasn’t done anything yet, has he.

The Iran command structure is a large, complex reliable machine. It is not run by Mullahs. It is run by astute highly intelligent men and women who are not cowboys, madmen or fools. Nor are they particularly angry, as is evidenced by their restraint over the years until now, when it has looked now for some six months, that Israel has finally decided to do it with or without the US.

For years they have kept silent and for the last six very active months they have as well, giving Israel every opportunity to desist its sabotage and to withdraw without comment and with no loss of face but no, Israel keeps coming, so finally, that’s it.

And fair enough too.

Notice that while the western media is desperately pretending Iran is in the wrong, Iran still underplays its response, today for example, it simply got some students to storm the UK embassy, it didn’t kill or hurt anyone, like Israel just did, a few days ago and on many many occasions in the recent past.

But I suppose many in the west who don’t understand and for whom this is the first they’ve heard of this new bolshy Iran attitude, the first thing that comes to their minds probably will be, let’s get em, the mad mullahs.

A moment to reflect on consequence should give one pause for thought. This would not be a simple bombing operation over in a few days. This is Pandora’s box, we open it at our peril. I mean that very literally.
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November 30, 2011 8:50pm
nasska

reid

Obviously you don’t reckon that the Sunni/Shia rift is deep enough to disturb a Pan Arab coalition. Does the fact that racially, Iranians are ethnically Turks make any difference?
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November 30, 2011 9:01pm
reid

Iranians are the real Aryans nasska. That’s who they are. They’re not Arabs, you’re right.

All I can do is observe them as they are today and it would appear their leadership of Islam transcends their racial difference with the Arabian peninsular.

I see a totally different dynamic emerging in the ME were there not a permanent protagonist there who they all bounce off which is of course Israel. I’m not dissing Israel simply saying if you have a room of people and everyone of them hates someone then everyone else tends to gang up and forget their differences.

My point is this dynamic suppresses the Sunni/Shia rift.

This is one of the reasons BTW why I’ve always advocated Israel adopts a more relaxed defensive posture as in: guard-up but not aggressive, simply because if she did, everyone would stop hating her and start thinking about who else they hated, which would be good for Israel, wouldn’t it.
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November 30, 2011 9:12pm
nasska

I lack confidence that the Middle East will ever be anything other than a powder keg. The area is an historian’s wet dream with the feuds, conquests & religious strife that the region has been host to over the past 4000 years or so. As the war threatening is a nuclear one there may not be enough left to fight over if Iran/Israel can’t get their act together.

If Israel is attacked we can rest assured that if they fire one warhead, they’ll likely fire the lot. The area will look like a sea of glass.
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November 30, 2011 9:33pm
Other_Andy

Reid

The difference is, Israel would only (if at all) use them as a very last resort.
O_A that’s only a supposition. You can’t guarantee that.

Of course it is only a supposition. However, Israel can’t use nuclear arms as a defense and if it uses them to attack it would (Rightly so) be condemned by the rest of the world. Israel had operational nuclear weapons capability since1967. It did not use them in the Six Day War and not even in the Yom Kippur War, when Israel was in a bad way.

Iran is not a toy puppet country run by a mad dictator like NK is, and he hasn’t done anything yet, has he. The Iran command structure is a large, complex reliable machine. It is not run by Mullahs.

It is, all but in name, run by the Mullahs and the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps.
There is a power struggle in Iran between the ‘progressives’, the military and the ‘islamists’, the Mullahs (The Guardian Council) who are backed by the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps. The IRGC has roughly 125,000 military personnel including ground, air and naval forces. It also controls the paramilitary The IRGC has roughly 125,000 military personnel including ground, air and naval forces. It also controls the paramilitary Basij militia which has about 90,000 active personnel and in recent years has developed into a “multibillion-dollar business empire.
This power struggle and the economic situation in Iran make for a volatile situation.

For years they have kept silent and for the last six very active months they have as well, giving Israel every opportunity to desist its sabotage and to withdraw without comment and with no loss of face but no, Israel keeps coming, so finally, that’s it.
And fair enough too.

Are you suggesting Iran should be allowed to continue to develop nuclear weapons without any consequences?

Notice that while the western media is desperately pretending Iran is in the wrong, Iran still underplays its response, today for example, it simply got some students to storm the UK embassy, it didn’t kill or hurt anyone, like Israel just did, a few days ago and on many many occasions in the recent past.

When did Israel attack embassies? Embassies in foreign lands are, legally, territory of the countries that own the embassies. That UK embassy is British territory; the attack on it was an attack on the UK. Iran is the only country in the world that has condoned attacks on foreign embassies.

A moment to reflect on consequence should give one pause for thought. This would not be a simple bombing operation over in a few days. This is Pandora’s box, we open it at our peril. I mean that very literally.

I agree with that but Pandora’s box will also be opened when Iran acquires a nuclear device. Will this turn into another Neville Chamberlain moment?
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November 30, 2011 10:06pm
reid

nasska, Iran could easily already have nukes, either from the USSR break-up or the Russians or Chinese under the table. Iran certainly has the umbrella of protection from both those nations.

I don’t think it will necessarily go nuclear or expand beyond the region, but various things are fairly certain on the assumption it’s a conventional strike.

1) Hezbollah goes absolutely nuts in Iraq and threatens many of the major bases there and certainly cuts off all supply lines.

2) The US executes its battle plan to detach Pakistan from its nukes.

3) The Straits of Hormuz are indefinitely closed to all shipping, if:

4) Iran’s Sunburn missiles are as good as reputed and actually can take out an aircraft carrier but even if not

5) Iranian harassment of said strait will certainly send oil over $200 bbl and it will probably stay there while

6) Israel is mopping up the blood from all the Iranian counter-attacks which I don’t dare guess at and

7) AIPAC is screaming for the US to help Israel who, through no fault of its own, is suddenly attacked out of nowhere by a brutish anti-Semitic savage intent upon destroying the very foundations of Christianity itself.

I’m confident lots more will happen as well, none of it good. It’s interesting isn’t it that the world is in such a state at the moment, that this Iran thing is a page three side-column while the main action plays out in the bond markets in Europe.

I wish I could buy myself an island somewhere and build a fort with an underground panic room and animals and vege gardens. And the internet.
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November 30, 2011 10:16pm
big bruv

And the cause of all this shit?

Stupid middle eastern religious superstition.
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November 30, 2011 10:18pm
reid

Israel can’t use nuclear arms as a defense… Israel did not use them in the Six Day War and not even in the Yom Kippur War, when Israel was in a bad way.

Israel like any nation with them will use them if her existential being is at stake and it never has been not in any of those wars. You didn’t answer my question: what is wrong with MAD?

It is, all but in name, run by the Mullahs and the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps.

O_A I could point you to many references refuting you as you could which refute I, however all I can say is, Iran has not been aggressive all throughout the time she has been targeted since Iraq fell in 2003, has she. No, she hasn’t. All that time, she has taken it. Until yesterday. Stuxnet, explosions, assassinations, all of that, she did nothing, till yesterday. If those actions, which to me speak louder than words in a learned article, don’t mean anything, then what does?

Iran is the only country in the world that has condoned attacks on foreign embassies.

Whereas you prefer to believe real things like Stuxnet was just a bunch of practical jokers or something? One notes of course there were no injuries, no violence against people, just property damage, a wholly symbolic act against unbearable provocation, is a wholly reasonable interpretation.

Will this turn into another Neville Chamberlain moment?

I’m not sure how it can Andy since in this case the innocent party is Iran and the aggressor is Israel so we’re probably risking Godwin’s law here but you bought it up but apart from whatever your opinion of it is, isn’t this the case? Is it not in fact from recent events since the fall of Iraq with a story here, an innuendo there, a Stuxnet here, an explosion there, an assassination here, et al. Isn’t the person doing all those things, the one whose in the wrong, in normal, decent society?
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November 30, 2011 10:29pm
reid

And the cause of all this shit?

Stupid middle eastern religious superstition.

Not to mention gajillions of dollars in the ground. That might have something to do with it, as well.
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November 30, 2011 10:35pm
Other_Andy

“Hezbollah goes absolutely nuts in Iraq and threatens many of the major bases there and certainly cuts off all supply lines.”

Hezbollah is based in Lebanon.
Iran supports the Badr Organization in Iraq.

Otherwise, yes.
But what’s new?
Iran has not been so ‘restrained’ as you mentioned previously.
Iran has been fighting a proxy war with Israel for years (Through Hamas and Hezbollah). It has shipped rockets, explosives etc. to Gaza and Lebanon (With the help of Syria) and the IRGC trains ‘Palestian’ terrorists.
Iran’s intentions towards Israel are clear in both word and action.
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November 30, 2011 10:38pm
Other_Andy

“however all I can say is, Iran has not been aggressive all throughout the time she has been targeted since Iraq fell in 2003, has she. No, she hasn’t. All that time, she has taken it. Until yesterday. Stuxnet, explosions, assassinations, all of that, she did nothing, till yesterday.”

See my comment at 10.38
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November 30, 2011 10:40pm
Other_Andy

“You didn’t answer my question: what is wrong with MAD?”

My worry is that there are factions in Iran that don’t worry about the consequences of a nuclear attack on Israel.
Also, there is a more worrying scenario.
Iran attains nuclear weapons and ships them to Hezbollah…..
What is Israel going to do then?
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November 30, 2011 10:55pm
Other_Andy

Latest News.
The UK withdraws diplomatic staff from Iran after the attack on its embassy and Norway closes its embassy in Teheran.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15956946
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November 30, 2011 11:08pm
reid

Iran attains nuclear weapons and ships them to Hezbollah…..

Why the hell would it do that?

I told you, it’s a serious, proper country, if you can’t bring yourself to understand that, I can’t understand that.
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November 30, 2011 11:10pm
Other_Andy

“Why the hell would it do that?”

For the same reason it ships weapons to Hamas and Hezbollah at the moment?
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November 30, 2011 11:19pm

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