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November 27, 2011 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 27 November 2011

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General Debate

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reid

Then we will win the socially liberal yet fiscally conservative government we want.

But I want a socially repressive yet fiscally conservative government, nasska.

I don’t really understand why anyone doesn’t.
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November 27, 2011 5:00pm
wat dabney

Associated Press, 2009;

‘Across the tundra 1,000 miles to the east, Canada’s Beverly herd, numbering more than 200,000 a decade ago, can barely be found today.[…]
From wildlife spectacle to wildlife mystery, the decline of the caribou — called reindeer in the Eurasian Arctic — has biologists searching for clues, and finding them.
They believe the insidious impact of climate change, its tipping of natural balances and disruption of feeding habits, is decimating a species that has long numbered in the millions and supported human life in Earth’s most inhuman climate.’

Canadian Press, 2011;

‘A vast herd of northern caribou that scientists feared had vanished from the face of the Earth has been found, safe and sound — pretty much where aboriginal elders said it would be all along.

http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/018444.html
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November 27, 2011 5:13pm
nasska

reid

Well we’re in agreement on 50% of the goal & starting from today there’s three years to bring about your Damascene conversion. In ‘Reprogramming 101′ you’ll be gently introduced to our concept where the state taxes lightly, legislates minimally & stays the Hell out of peoples’ private lives including their bedrooms.

The 36 months will pass quickly & at the end of the course you will be a fully functional individual seeking & attaining your own goals without the assistance of Nanny State…..indeed I confidently predict that the scales will rapidly fall from your eyes & it will not be long before we’ll be singing from the same hymn book.

Introducing you to this Nirvana has a high placing on my bucket list.
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November 27, 2011 5:22pm
Joseph Carpenter

Well said Tom Hunter at 10.15am. There are two big problems with Nationals lets not frighten the horses/softee softee catchee monkey/gradual incrementalist approach:

1) The soft ratchet effect of left wing/socialism in NZ: It’s generally Labour that’s been the big reformer in NZ historically – in their first term they always introduce significant new policy – and it’s been National thats been the centrist caretaker, steady as she goes, let’s not change anything significantly and move very very slowly for two-three terms. The problem with this is you constantly lose ground and retreat and end up with the State and dependency on the State growing steadily over the decades. However history shows (mainly by Labour) you can implement a radical agenda in NZ and still get returned but you have to make a strong and cohesive argument for your policy and trash any opposition including internally and bed your changes in so it becomes extremely difficult to repeal.

2) Moving left to try and take the centre and swinging voters means you alienate your core support to the right. National obviously calculate they can ignore the right because where else can they go? (Act not being viable) and they gain the middle & left swing voters. But they make a mistake, swing voters are fickle and have no loyalty – they do swing and will swing left again in time – but in the meantime your core right supporters have become disengaged and they take the third option – “Fuck it, I’m sitting this out, a plaque on them all”. It also means a steady drift to the left over time to remain centrist because of (1). And in fact National no longer bears any resemblance to it’s founding principles.

I posit that the low vote turn-out was A) mainly in Nationals heartland areas and not due to Labour and lefty supporters; and B) the low National supporter turn-out was not due to complacency but rather lack of enthusiasm through to outright disgust by normally strong National supporters. The fact is many on the right are not happy with:
– Even more nanny-statism and State regulation.
– Even more state growth and higher spending every single year.
– More borrowing and debt.
Many on the right thought that was all going to change in 2008. So what was their only option for real change this time – ACT – which was imploding and actually had a big spending & big government main candidate – and so they stayed home. In droves.
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November 27, 2011 6:40pm
wat dabney

National’s move to the centre-left is a double-edge sword: yes it collects votes on the way, but the votes are soft because National stands for exactly the same soft-fascism as Labour. Voters can pretty much toss a coin. Key comes across as decent, Goff is creepy in a Uriah Heepish way. Result: National win.
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November 27, 2011 7:01pm
reid

Many on the right thought that was all going to change in 2008. So what was their only option for real change this time – ACT – which was imploding and actually had a big spending & big government main candidate – and so they stayed home. In droves.

Don’t buy it Joseph. For the simple reason conservatives as a rule understand the economy way better than lefties as a rule do.

Anyone who understands the economy knows this was a critical election, more critical than any since WWII was on, because of the GFC.

No-one talked about it during the campaign esp not the idiot MSM since they don’t apparently understand the economy, but it’s there and those who understand these things know it.

Therefore to my mind, many in that massive block of lefty idiots who don’t understand the economy either (a) stayed home or (b) voted for Winston.
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November 27, 2011 7:31pm
nasska

A Russian scientist and a Czech scientist had spent their lives studying the grizzly bear. Each year they petitioned their respective governments to allow them to go to Yellowstone to study the bears. Finally their request was granted and they immediately flew to New York and on west to Yellowstone Park.
They reported to the ranger station and were told that it was the grizzly mating season and it was too dangerous to go out and study the animals. They pleaded that this was their only chance and finally the ranger relented. The Russian and the Czech were given portable phones and told to report in every day. For several days they called in, and then nothing was heard from the two scientists. The rangers mounted a search party and found the camp completely ravaged, with no sign of the missing men.
They followed the trail of a male and a female bear. They found the female and decided they must kill the animal to find out if she had eaten the scientists because they feared an international incident. They killed the female animal and opened the stomach to find the remains of the Russian. One ranger turned to the other and said: “You know what this means, don’t you?” The other ranger responded: “Of course…The Czech is in the male.”
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November 27, 2011 8:00pm
Joseph Carpenter

You’re wrong Reid, it was Nat supporters that stayed home, South Auckland and other Lab strongholds had increased turnouts to 2008, virtually all Nat strongholds had a lower turnout.
2008 Nat votes = 1,053,398 for 44.9%
2011 Nat votes = 957,769 for 48.0%
I agree that the reason is debatable – it could be complacency. But anecdotally I believe there was a strong FU from otherwise National supporters. Also is it true that this time Nationals’
– Membership numbers
– Financial support
– Boots on ground support
– Media support
were all lower than 2008? That bodes ill considering they’re the supposed very popular incumbent, it means when things turn against them they’re stuffed because they have soft support only. And I think things will turn and very fast this term, that missing 150,000 Nat votes would have meant a safe absolute majority for taking the hard decisions that will be required.
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November 27, 2011 8:17pm
Gennaker

There will not be much work done tomorrow, the haters and wreckers will be fuming all week.
Should blow away by friday
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November 27, 2011 8:19pm
Joseph Carpenter

In fact it’s even worse – Act 2008 = 85,496 votes, 2011 = 21,445 votes – I reckon the bulk of those 64,000 votes should of gone to National, so maybe another 50,000 askew? A very thin win to National, they really achieved SFA last term and for this term I worry things will be even tougher, they have even less reserves and they might have a better opposition and the memory of the Helen horror years will be growing ever dimmer.
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November 27, 2011 8:44pm
Mick Mac

JC
I think asset sales turned them off not apathy.
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November 27, 2011 9:12pm
Mick Mac

s.russell (1,081) Says:
November 27th, 2011 at 8:46 am

Pauleastbay (1,629) Says:
November 27th, 2011 at 8:45 am

asset sales not apathy turned off national supporters and asset sales turned on winstons
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November 27, 2011 9:18pm
Other_Andy

@MM

Biggest mistake of National.
They (and you) have adapted the Labour Party language.

There are NO asset sales.

It is capital reinvestment.
It is mixed ownership.

It is NOT an asset sale.
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November 27, 2011 9:23pm
jackp

Wat Dabney, yes, I do know what facism is, it all stems from fearmongering and faking and minipulating events to get your desired outcome rather than debating out in the open.. name calling is a big part it. Remember the holocaust? or are you one of those that denied it ever happened… it all starts with what Farrar did… twisted, lied and now Winston Peters is coming after you..

Winston Peters threatens David Farrar with legal action
Sunday, 27 November 2011, 4:50 pm
Press Release: The Slightly Correct Political Show

Winston Peters threatens David Farrar with legal action

From the final episode of The Slightly Correct Political Show, Winston Peters hinted today at legal action against blogger David Farrar.

Speaking about articles written by Farrar in the final 48 hours of the campaign, Mr. Peters said “you cannot get away with what he tried…and he’s [going to] find out”.

The ever combative Mr. Peters also referred to Mr. Farrar as a ‘Rumplestiltskin’ and a ‘fool’ during the 5 minute chat and pondered “why people bother with him?”

Winston Peters claims there is a law against misleading people in the final two days of an election campaign and asked if he was considering taking it further Peters replied emphatically “no doubt about it!”

To finish off Mr. Peters offered one more nugget towards his intentions of Kiwiblog’s Farrar by saying, “what he did under the law was prohibited and he’s not going to get away with it.”

The full interview, and final episode, can be heard at http://www.facebook.com/SlightlyCorrect

ENDS

You started Farrar, Winston is going to finish it…
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November 27, 2011 9:29pm
big bruv

jackp

Mate, are you seriously trying to convince us that Winston is as pure as the driven snow?
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November 27, 2011 9:46pm
Other_Andy

@JackP
Oh, I bet he will.
Not sure about a court case though.
But he loves the media attention and will probably attack DPF.
Just one thing.
He will probably wait till he is in parliament so he can use parliamentary privilege.
He has a long history of attacking people while hiding behind parliamentary privilege.
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November 27, 2011 9:49pm
chiz

Pharmachick:Chiz, at risk of being facetious … basis of drug metabolism = quantum mechanics at the level of enzyme catalysis

Yes, that’s why I said that QM wasn’t relevant on scales larger than a molecule. I didn’t say that it wasn’t relevant at all, merely that it wasn’t relevant on large scales. Time to read more slowly before commenting 🙂
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November 28, 2011 4:58pm
Pharmachick

Chiz,
I read it more than once … actually, a more accurate response is that it is time I realize/admit that people commenting on Kiwiblog might have similar, the same or better expertise than me. Which I’m pretty effing stoked about since there aren’t so many in my area of expertise, and I had to move offshore to pursue it. YAY 😀
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November 28, 2011 9:54pm

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