General Debate 13 November 2011

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Viking2

Inspired Solutions.

No one has figured that an ACT, NZ First grouping could cause some issues for National but read this and compare the poilicy issues here.
Oh and don’t just dismiss this because you see NZ First ‘s name.

No to Separatism
Ellerslie Rotary Club

This morning is an opportunity to discuss two issues. First, a serious issue for New Zealanders and indeed all of humanity and second, a relatively recent development in our laws which would, if New Zealanders were aware of it, be of equal concern to them.

Dealing with the second issue first.

Last Sunday we laid out NZ First’s position on coalitions after the election. It is matter of grave regret that serious concerns NZ First has which led to our decision not to join any coalition has gone unreported. For none of those concerns were alarmist but indeed an honest assessment of what is happening to this country and any chance of building a future of national unity.

You have been told that NZ First is not going in to coalition. You have not been told why.

I have spent my whole political career focused on a need for New Zealand to have one law for all. That does not mean that you don’t have laws designed to help the elderly, or the very young, or special needs that some deserve help with, like blindness and learning disabilities for example. Such laws are designed for just some people but they’ve never been regarded as discrimination. And nor should they be.

But the issue that has concerned me and on which I have never been silent is a developing pattern of laws that says some people have special rights over those of other on the basis of race. Years ago at a National Party Conference I warned them of the dangers of misinterpreting signals on racial issues which was then being so mishandled by the then Labour Government of David Lange.

The conference delegates were asked to compare what was being done in New Zealand in the name of Maori equality to that which the black civil rights movement in America sacrificed to achieve.

In the 1960’s the black civil rights movement keep their eyes on the real prize. Breaking in to the best that white institutions had in education and employment so that they might have equal prospects of human fulfillment, and live out the promise of the Declaration of Independence – that all men were born equal.

It is therefore with growing alarm that we are witness today to a National Party going down the same path that Labour went – the pathway of separate development. And on this same journey is the Maori Party, the Green Party, and the Labour Party. All this is happening when the National Party promised, nay campaigned, not to do this.

Today New Zealand has
Two flags
The obligations of a UN Convention which says that in a dispute between Maori and the rest of New Zealanders then the Maori rights will prevail – even over any domestic law
A foreshore and seabed which some have rights to and the rest of us, don’t
A review committee in to our Constitution seeking to make the Treaty of Waitangi the cornerstone of it
Emerging separate sections of our penal system
Emerging separate sections of our Social Welfare system

All of the above 6 developments happened in the last three years and without any consultation with you or the mass majority of New Zealanders, here for generations or arrived recently. After two decades of mass migration with attendant strains and stresses these unheralded and unwanted changes are now added.

That is why NZ First made a stand last Sunday to reject a path down which we believe New Zealand goes at its future peril.

We are not prepared to prop up any government whatever its political hue, however it is cobbled together, that encourages, even celebrates, such a prospect of future divisiveness. For that would be to support the torturous pathway to Zimbabwe.

That is why we made the stand. And New Zealanders are entitled to know it.

We are going in to Opposition to use every ounce of our energy to bring sanity to the political system. We have seen separatism and racial division in other countries, and we’ll do everything in our power to stop it happening here.

That is not a new view for NZ First. That is a view taken for my whole political career. There is no doubt, should this stand fail, what the prospects for your children and grand children, Maori or non Maori, will be. Bleak indeed.

So lots of similarities between NZ First and Act on policy.
Now that could make for interesting times if both parties remain on cross benches. Could be very good for NZ.
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November 13, 2011 8:03am
Other_Andy

Matt McCarten is ecstatic.

“But before we write Labour off completely, there is some good news from the poll. Despite the political spin among the professional pundits, Goff has been performing well during this campaign. His profile is building and he’s been rewarded with a 6 per cent surge to 18 per cent personal support, his highest ever.”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10765612

Yep, he ‘surges’ to 18 per cent!
Phil will be happy.
(Talk about spin.)
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November 13, 2011 8:04am
Pete George

A nod to the substantial ongoing contribution from here – The Kiwiblog candidate.
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November 13, 2011 8:10am
Viking2

Sorry Pete but voters up here haven’t heard of United Future.
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November 13, 2011 8:12am
big bruv

Proof that socialists are nothing but scum.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5956416/Art-shock-kills-PM-in-alley
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November 13, 2011 8:13am
Jimbob

The painting of a dead John Key on “Stuff” this morning by Sam Mahon really is of very poor taste. How low are the socialists going to go. This is disgusting.
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November 13, 2011 8:13am
Viking2

Jimbob, which set of socialists are you asking about?
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November 13, 2011 8:17am
Pete George

Viking2 – there’s a lot more to it than United Future, UF have been good enough and bold enough to give me (and others) an opportunity but it’s not just about the party, it’s about ordinary people doing something to get a better democratic process going rather than sit complaining and waiting for the big parties to do something to give people more power.

Many political critics are a bit like some of the people stuck in the benefit rut – they don’t do enough to get out of it themselves.
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November 13, 2011 8:21am
Viking2

Actually I didn’t think it was such a bad idea.

A KEY murder mystery.
Lots of voters like murder mysteries and stuff like that.

Great publicity really and any publicity is better than none.

The cynical in me suggests that this is a bit like the unplanned, planned recording of Friday.
OMG he says, conspiiracies everywhere.
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November 13, 2011 8:23am
Viking2

Well Pete, that’s cuase they are busy running their own lives which is what Pollies should do and are not that good at. They always want to interfere in Personal Responsibilities and Property Rights and subsumed them into their control.
So the avergae person gets by whilst trying to dodge the next interference.
Either that or they bugger off to Aussie where Govt. has much less influence.
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November 13, 2011 8:26am
Jimbob

Viking2 @ 8:17. Take your pick.
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November 13, 2011 8:27am
Inventory2

Doubtless the left will be accusing John Key of having colluded with Sam Mahon for a painting opportunity 🙂
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November 13, 2011 8:30am
Viking2

When the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

Is that so true?

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.
It could not be any simpler than that. (Please pass this on)

Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections.

These are possibly the 5 best sentences you’ll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

http://www.nzcpr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=86&p=38325#p38325
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November 13, 2011 8:33am
Viking2

ACT to formally launch its election campaign

Sunday, 13, Nov, 2011 7:40AM

ACT will formally launch its election campaign today in Auckland.

The party says the event will set the agenda for the final weeks.

Leader Don Brash will be talking about ACTâs priorities and policies for the campaign and beyond.
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November 13, 2011 8:39am
Griff

from the holiday highway
Trucks, Trucks, vans tradies, salesmen all working on this second rate road
Truck breaks down on the pohio viaduct and the whole lot stops. all this productivity wasted
meanwhile some idiot wants a train set to go round and round choo choo

Moari want there own government just like in the old days?
kill eat rape and pillage Maori government
Us whites have created one of the best and most just countries in the world and a bunch of tribal savages are sure that their old style would be even better kill rape eat slavery infanticide the Maori way old time savagery for all.

FFS wake up or lose this paradise of the pacific to tribal savages.

We are way down the list of rich countries in the oecd stats why ?
Cause a lot of the winners have been borrowing massively riding on the back of Germany and England
The monkeys on the back of the euro are going to pull them down to our level. NZ is way better of than the numbers suggest. We had already got real in the eighties. They will need to as well. We will get to see Greece Ireland Italy etc plunge to below us in the rankings.
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November 13, 2011 8:45am
Pete George

Deborah Coddington quotes Michael Cullen on MMP versus FPP:

On a National Radio Insight debate, Richardson carped on that strong government can only be delivered under FPP until Michael Cullen shut her up with this: “Ruth talks about strong government, she is really talking code for a particular kind of government doing certain things. Muldoon’s government was a very strong government, it just went in a different direction from New Zealand’s interest and finally got chucked out.

“In the US, with an FPP system in both chambers you end up with the worst example of government paralysis in the world at the present time. A legislature which is paralysed by party politics of the worst variety, to the point where the US is incapable of carrying out the policies that not just it needs, but the rest of the world needs.”

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10765603

There’s a few people here who talk about wanting strong government – code for a particular kind of government doing certain things, their way.
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November 13, 2011 8:45am
Scott Chris

All Black Zac Guildford reportedly staggered into a Rarotonga bar naked, drunk, and bleeding and assaulted two holidaymakers.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/5957088/Guildford-accused-of-drunken-assault

No doubt he’s a socialist too.

What is it with drunk people wanting to get naked? (in a non-sexual way)
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November 13, 2011 8:45am
CrazyIvan

Not sure I agree with Cullen’s comments about the US system. yes, it is partisan often open to pork barrelling, and not condusive for sweeping or needed reforms, but at least it doesn’t have a whipping system as strong as here in NZ. There are many instances where politicians crossing from one side to the other pushes legislation through. Congressmen have a lot more independence in voting than an NZ MP does.

The separation of executive and legislative means that the President has to work to win or defeat every vote.
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November 13, 2011 8:57am
Griff

If you are hell bent on loosing all inhibition by imbibing the devils brew. clothes just hold you back and are the final inhibition. you have not been truly drunk until you have stripped naked and bashed someone then crashed your car
get stoned instead the worst that happens is you go quietly to sleep.
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November 13, 2011 9:04am
iMP

JOHN KEY”S MURDER artwork and computer game by Sam Mahon is SICK SICK SICK and definately crosses a political line. Mahon of course is an active member of the Green Party. This is disturbing. The self righteous arrogance of socialists and leftists like Mahon is appalling and this goes well beyond the pale. Can you imagine if a Nat artist did one of Helen?
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November 13, 2011 9:11am
thedavincimode

Viking2

“ACT to formally launch its election campaign

Sunday, 13, Nov, 2011 7:40AM

ACT will formally launch its election campaign today in Auckland.”

Why the rush?
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November 13, 2011 9:18am
Yvette

Viking2 – That is not a new view for NZ First. That is a view taken for my whole political career. There is no doubt, should this stand fail, what the prospects for your children and grand children, Maori or non Maori, will be. Bleak indeed.

“That is a view taken for my whole political career.”
So, when Winston was ‘king-maker’ in 2005 and after he had then sworn [as he does now] to stay on the cross benches, why did he succumb to the ‘burbles of office’.
“No to Separatism”, addressed to the Ellerslie Rotary Club, is a crock from the man who has cried wolf several times too often.
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November 13, 2011 9:25am
Pete George

One aspect of MMP I don’t like – and it’s the fault of parties and candidates, not MMP – is all the ‘don’t vote for me, vote for the party” messages. Electorate lists (and candidate meetings) are cluttered with candidates using it simply as a means of getting attention (or a soapbox) for party messages.

I think anyone standing for an electorate should make an honest attempt to campaign for the electorate seat. If they don’t they are using – and abusing – the system.
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November 13, 2011 9:43am
Scott Chris

I think people are overreacting to the depiction of a dead John Key. You’re reading the wrong message. Artists have notoriously convoluted reasons for creating their works, but one of the primary rules in art is to seek attention and see if your work stands up to the scrutiny of a wider audience.

You can achieve this through virtuosity or through showmanship, and sometimes both.

Personally I think the work is rather powerful, but I wouldn’t have it on my dining room wall.

Would clash with the curtains.

[DPF: I have a blog post appearing on this. I think Mahon is deranged. His stunt though will probably increase support for Key]
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November 13, 2011 9:46am
Black with a Vengeance

Moari want there own government just like in the old days?
kill eat rape and pillage Maori government
Us whites have created one of the best and most just countries in the world and a bunch of tribal savages are sure that their old style would be even better kill rape eat slavery infanticide the Maori way old time savagery for all.

FFS wake up or lose this paradise of the pacific to tribal savages.

I do hope you’re not diseased of flesh as you are of mind, cos come the revolution you’re the first person i’m going to eat !

nom nom nom…
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November 13, 2011 10:37am
Manolo

…cos come the revolution you’re the first person i’m going to eat !

Once a cannibal…..
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November 13, 2011 10:40am
Manolo

England, snitches’s paradise: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2060522/Big-Brother-alert-surge-citizen-spies-thousands-volunteer-snoop-neighbours.html
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November 13, 2011 10:52am
Viking2

Yvette (1,495) Says:
November 13th, 2011 at 9:25 am

Viking2 – That is not a new view for NZ First. That is a view taken for my whole political career. There is no doubt, should this stand fail, what the prospects for your children and grand children, Maori or non Maori, will be. Bleak indeed.

“That is a view taken for my whole political career.”
So, when Winston was ‘king-maker’ in 2005 and after he had then sworn [as he does now] to stay on the cross benches, why did he succumb to the ‘burbles of office’.
“No to Separatism”, addressed to the Ellerslie Rotary Club, is a crock from the man who has cried wolf several times too often.

I didn’t write the stuff Yvette. And as Pita Sharples said on Q+ A this morning, pissing oputside the tent doesn’t get anything won. Inside drinking the Champers does.
(or words to that effect).
The fact remians the Nats. have never and will never do anything but manage,. That’s what they are, middle line managers and lawyers.
No entreprenures among them, nomake it happen guys or gals. Rerun Q+A and listen to the stats that Jones and Holmes put out.
Unemplyment up, beneficiary numbers up, people leaving NZS up.
Great managers of loss.
Ah but it s the GFC or the Earthquake. Bullshit its a lack of vision and action.
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November 13, 2011 11:03am
Jimbob

BTW, what Goff is saying on the ETS for agriculture and the money he will get to spend on other things are all lies. The farmers will have to buy NZ units off foresters for the carbon they are sequestered in their trees. The Government does not get a cent.
Also under Goff’s ETS scheme the cost to farmers will be 30-50% of net income. Like every wage earner taking a 20% haircut on their wages, which would never happen.
These NZ units are given out by the NZ Government at NO cost. So if they run out of units they just need to photocopy some more. So there is no cost to these emissions, so the tax payer is NOT subsidising farmers. Goff and the Greens are just telling enormous barefaced LIES.
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November 13, 2011 11:05am
Lee01

@ Scott Chris

I think people are overreacting to the depiction of a dead John Key.

I don’t think so. When the Left stoops to the level of depicting political opponents as dead we should be concerned.

You’re reading the wrong message.

The message is that the Liberal-Left is little more than thinly disguised Stalinism.
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November 13, 2011 11:11am
Viking2

Gees the Nats are getting precious about their God like Leader.

Get over yourselves.
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November 13, 2011 11:44am
wat dabney

The Solyndra scandal deepens.

“In the past week, it has emerged that George Kaiser, a billionaire donor to the Obama campaign whose family foundation was Solyndra’s main investor, had raised the subject of the company inside the White House, something the Obama administration had denied. The suspicion of cosy inside deals is hard to escape.

Other emails released by investigators from the House of Representatives indicated that the foundation’s associates had closely tracked the White House’s interest in promoting Solyndra as, in Mr Kaiser’s words, one of “their prime poster children” for renewable energy.

The Obama administration, whicwh has been touted by the president himself as the “most transparent” in history, has refused to comply with a congressional subpoena for all internal White House documents relating to Solyndra.

Once principally a preoccupation of Right-wing bloggers, the Solyndra scandal is now being covered by the mainstream media and is slowly becoming an emblem for crony capitalism, wasted stimulus funds and, worst of all, stonewalling and hypocrisy from Obama.”

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyharnden/100117187/american-way-whiff-of-scandal-now-taints-barack-obama/
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November 13, 2011 12:07pm
Lee01

Gees the Nats are getting precious about their God like Leader.

I’m not a Nat. I just think this kind of political rhetoric is wrong. It would have been just as wrong if it had portrayed Goff.
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November 13, 2011 12:50pm
Viking2

Well did you care when Kiwiblog published poictures of similar ilk a few years ago about others like Clark. Which we all laughed at.
Double standards.
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November 13, 2011 1:31pm
nickb

A nod to the substantial ongoing contribution from here – The Kiwiblog candidate.

First comment on the thread:

phillip ure
November 13, 2011 at 8:47 am

comedy-gold…

phil(whoar.co.nz)

Say what you like about our phil but at least he cracks some funnies, unlike the mindless trolls that have recently showed up a la waterwoman and BWAV.

This one from a while ago had me in stiches:

# philu (10,919) Says:
February 19th, 2011 at 5:43 pm

did they test for waffling there..pete george..?

you’d be off the scale…eh..?

do you have waffly-dreams..?

where you are also wracked with indecision./seeking the middle-path…?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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November 13, 2011 1:48pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi

When is TVNZ making another series of McPhail and Gadsby?
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November 13, 2011 2:50pm
Pauleastbay

If anyone sees him about could they let Don (Brash) know that the election is this November 26, the one in two weeks, and that the others have sort of started campaigning, probably manners to keep him up with the play.
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November 13, 2011 2:50pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Can I just say, you should all be watching “Atlas Shrugged Part 1”.

It’s out in the wild. Order the DVD if you want.
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November 13, 2011 3:19pm
Manolo

The Jewish state knows full well the Messiah is not its friend: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/8886543/Israel-refuses-to-tell-US-its-Iran-intentions.html
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November 13, 2011 4:34pm
DJP6-25

wat dabney 12:07 What an incoming Republican President needs is an Attorney general like Bobby Kennedy, and some lawyers at Justice like Abe Fortas. That would put the fear of God into these lying theiving socialists. Solyndra, ACORN, Fast and Furious, Fannie and Freddie, etc should all be investigated to the nth degree. So should The unions, and the Chicago machine. The IRS should be minutely involved too. Oh, and a special prosecutor. No stone should be left unturned.

cheers

David Prosser
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November 13, 2011 4:56pm
Mick Mac

Manolo you are correct and rightly so.

Viking you are also correct, John Key and National are just managers
But sadly managers with no common sense.
Drink and drunk in public is the core problem to anti social behaviour something the National managers won’t deal to by making drunk in public illegal.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5958124/Vicious-assault-in-central-Wellington
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November 13, 2011 4:58pm
JamesS

TV3 poll tonight: National 53% Labour 30% Greens 10% NZ First 2% others (who cares?)

With effectively 12 days to go it looks like the game is up for the socialists.
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November 13, 2011 6:08pm
Viking2

You are kidding. On those numbers we will continue to be run by the socialists. Same lot as current.
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November 13, 2011 6:54pm
nasska

Ten reasons why beer is better then religion

1. If you have a beer, you don’t go around door to door trying to give it to someone else.
2. You can prove that you have a beer.
3. It is against the law to offer beer to little children who are not old enough to think for themselves.
4. Nobody has ever been hanged, tortured, or burned at the stake over his particular brand of beer.
5. If you have a beer, you don’t have to wait over 2000 years for another one.
6. There are many laws that make them print the truth on beer labels.
7. No one will kill you for not drinking beer.
8. Beer does not tell you when or how to have sex.
9. There have been virtually no major wars fought over beer.
10. If you have devoted your entire life to beer, there are groups you can join to help you stop!
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November 13, 2011 8:00pm
slijmbal

I have to laugh about the site adverts on kiwiblog – they are remarkably often green Ads

Talk about poor targetting

I enjoy the irony of marxists paying DF
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November 13, 2011 8:23pm
Griff

It took me a while to figure out that adds were real they seem like a parody most of the time.

Greens to make us rich.

Labour and free health care.

Are so far off the results of their policy’s as to be pure fantasy

Greens would blow our economy apart with their anti energy policy’s we would go broke in a year or two
Labour and “free” health care= tax the productive pay pay pay
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November 13, 2011 9:09pm

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