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October 5, 2011 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 5 October 2011

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General Debate

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Weihana

Scott Chris –

While I acknowledge the deficiency in my examples, the SPECIFIC hardness or hotness of rocks or fire respectively would appear to me to be absolute properties in any particular case. For instance a rock will have a definite hardness and a fire will have a definite temperature. These properties are instrinsic in that they are determined by the nature of the thing. Or am I missing the point here?

I would simply say that absolute properties are those properties which makes something itself. So yes, a rock is a rock. But it is useful to define the specific properties of a rock because saying something is itself doesn’t give us any information about that thing. While I don’t feel qualified to get into the physics and geology of rocks, a common sense understanding of what a rock is is that it is hard and you find them on the ground. Similarly people would say fire is hot. These definitions can be refined with better understanding of what these things actually are, but the point is the same.
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October 5, 2011 5:07pm
Weihana

# Scott Chris (1,790) Says:
October 5th, 2011 at 5:02 pm

Weihana

I’m assuming that your discussion with Lee was about the subjectivity of morality.

I think the way Christians try to get around this problem is to make the claim that God represents absolute truth, and that truth is reflected in Natural Law.

Alas, for Lee, Natural Law is amoral. So there is no such thing as objective morality.

—————————–

Yes, I don’t think Lee ever quite got passed the fact that I suggested torturing babies was not evil in an absolute sense, and was only evil in an objective sense.

No “is” implies an “ought”. It is a miraculous leap of logic to go from talking about what “is” to what “ought” to be the case and I agree with Hume that the latter cannot be derived from the former.

But according to Lee this well established problem in meta-ethics has no credibility. I guess this is what happens when you go to Bible College. 🙂
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October 5, 2011 5:17pm
Scott Chris

Weihana

I agree that the rock has a specific average hardness and a specific average temperature according to the scales we invented to measure them, but no *real* substance is that uniform. The business of philosophical description is an exceedingly pedantic one.

“So yes, a rock is a rock.”

Not quite. THE rock is THE rock. A rock is any rock.
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October 5, 2011 5:18pm
Weihana

# F E Smith (1,263) Says:
October 5th, 2011 at 5:00 pm

at least I still get to vote in federal elections

So do Democrats, and they are wrong as well.

————————-

But much less so than the Republicans. Their candidates are just awful. 🙂
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October 5, 2011 5:21pm
Weihana

Scott Chris (1,791) Says:
October 5th, 2011 at 5:18 pm

“The business of philosophical description is an exceedingly pedantic one.”

True, and your corrections are well received. 🙂
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October 5, 2011 5:28pm
Griff

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5737650/Maori-heads-retuning-home
“Twenty Maori warrior heads will be returned to New Zealand in January, coming back to their homeland after spending hundreds of years overseas. ”

It was estimated there was somewhere between 400 and 500 Maori heads around the world

“The first head believed to have been acquired by a European was that of a 14-year-old boy who was understood to have been killed for his head, and the elaborate tattoos which adorned his face.”

Slaves- Tattoo- Slaughter-Smoke head-Sell. Lots of Maori culture then.

Now they want them back why?
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October 5, 2011 5:44pm
F E Smith

But much less so than the Republicans. Their candidates are just awful.

Absolutely, 100% disagree. Romney, Perry, Cain, Paul or Gingrich are all better than anything the Dems can put up. Although considering that the only candidate the Dems have is Obama, that isn’t really saying much.

The Dems have yet to propose anything to get the US out of the doldrums that doesn’t involve large tax increases and huge increases in government spending. Hell, they haven’t even proposed a budget in, what, a couple of years? That is a violation of US law that requires them to do so. Obama proposed a budget a while back, but that was virtually unanimously rejected in the Senate, even Obama’s own party didn’t want it.

No, you may believe everything the media tell you (witness your comments on the Tea Party) but when it comes to who should get the job there is one clear solution in the US- anyone but a Democrat.
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October 5, 2011 5:46pm
Weihana

F E Smith,

“Hell, they haven’t even proposed a budget in, what, a couple of years? That is a violation of US law that requires them to do so.”

Where do you get your facts from? He has proposed a budget every year.
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October 5, 2011 6:04pm
Rodders

“Seek help”

A note to self from the resident pious prig.
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October 5, 2011 6:18pm
MyNameIsJack

FES, stick to law where your insights are excellent.

Perry? Says the “government can’t create jobs”, claims Obama’s rescue package is a con while all the time taking credit for reducing Texas unemployment. How did he do it? Used the stimulus money to hire heaps on the public payroll. Prays for rain, and when god sends bushfires instead doesn’t get the hint.

Gingrich? Believes marriage is “between a man and woman”. I think he means marriage is between a man and the first woman, then it is between a man and the second woman he cheated on the first woman with, and so on.

Dinner calls – I’ll get to the other Rethuglicans later.
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October 5, 2011 6:26pm
F E Smith

Of course, our federal government hasn’t had a budget for more than two years, and the president’s February budget was voted down 97-0 in the Senate. So how, exactly, is he going to provide a mid-session review?

Our federal government has now gone for more than two years without a budget, to the everlasting disgrace of the Democratic Party.

We also have no debt plan from Senate Democrats. In fact, they haven’t even passed a budget in 813 days.

That last one being a quote from Senator Jeff Sessions, the ranking minority member of the Senate Budget Committee. Now, he works in a Senate that still has a Democrat Majority, one that had an even greater Democrat majority before October 2010.

Ok, perhaps ‘passed’ is more accurate than ‘proposed’. But the basic idea is the same. And I did differentiate between Obama and the Senate. They operate on basically parallel streams when it comes to this sort of thing.
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October 5, 2011 6:28pm
F E Smith

Says the “government can’t create jobs”, claims Obama’s rescue package is a con

And he was correct. Whatever his failings in Texas, he was correct on that. One does not make the other untrue.

Believes marriage is “between a man and woman”.

As does much of the USA. And, again, his personal marital history still shows that he only marries women, so there is some consistency there.

And, again, his actions do not make his view any less valid. If he had gone to Massachusetts and married a bloke, then you would have a point.

Rethuglicans

Which shows that I can safely ignore your views on the issue, just like I do on most other things anyway.
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October 5, 2011 6:32pm
Weihana

F E Smith,

“Ok, perhaps ‘passed’ is more accurate than ‘proposed’. But the basic idea is the same.”

Well not quite. The president proposes a budget and Congress can either pass it, amend it or reject it entirely. It is not the president’s job to pass a budget in Congress, that is the job of Congress.

I do not see how Obama is to blame for Congress being unable to sort itself out. He has shown a willingness to compromise, such as extending the Bush tax cuts, and in doing so he has earned some criticism from the left which thinks he’s gone too soft.

One can only hope that come 2012 the US public wises up and throws the tea baggers out and gives us a Democrat controlled Congress. 🙂
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October 5, 2011 7:06pm
Weihana

F E Smith,

Says the “government can’t create jobs”, claims Obama’s rescue package is a con

And he was correct.

—————————–

WASHINGTON — Now that unemployment has topped 10 percent, some liberal-leaning economists see confirmation of their warnings that the $787 billion stimulus package President Obama signed into law last February was way too small. The economy needs a second big infusion, they say.

No, some conservative-leaning economists counter, we were right: The package has been wasteful, ineffectual and even harmful to the extent that it adds to the nation’s debt and crowds out private-sector borrowing.

These long-running arguments have flared now that the White House and Congressional leaders are talking about a new “jobs bill.” But with roughly a quarter of the stimulus money out the door after nine months, the accumulation of hard data and real-life experience has allowed more dispassionate analysts to reach a consensus that the stimulus package, messy as it is, is working.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/business/economy/21stimulus.html

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/11/21/business/21stimulus_graphic.html
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October 5, 2011 7:13pm
F E Smith

how Obama is to blame for Congress being unable to sort itself out

Because for most of the time during which there has been no budget, the both House and Senate have had Democrat majorities. Which puts paid to your last comment about a Democrat controlled congress, nothwithstanding your use of the abusive word ‘teabaggers’.

When the Senate rejected Obama’s most recent budget 97-0, you know he has a problem.

Oh, and your 7.13pm comment? Note the source is the NY Times, the Democratic cheer paper. I don’t accept it as being an unbiased source. Anyway, the stimulus that Obama got passed by Congress has had little discernable effect on the US economy- most of the indicators are worse now than Obama predicted would happen even without the stimulus.

Of course, I am not really an expert on that- Tom Hunter or Kiwi in America can place the facts and figures far better than I can.
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October 5, 2011 7:20pm
Weihana

F E Smith,

Believes marriage is “between a man and woman”.

As does much of the USA.

————————————-

Whooptie fucking doo.
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October 5, 2011 7:27pm
F E Smith

F E Smith,

Believes marriage is “between a man and woman”.

As does much of the USA.

————————————-

Whooptie fucking doo.

Don’t get snarky, now.
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October 5, 2011 7:29pm
Johnboy

Quiet week on the WWL is it Mi Lordship? (tugs forelock).

Time to dally with the peasants then? 🙂
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October 5, 2011 7:39pm
Weihana

F E Smith,

“Note the source is the NY Times, the Democratic cheer paper. I don’t accept it as being an unbiased source.”

What would you prefer? Fox News? 🙂

The NY Times article provides projections from three companies specializing in macroeconomic forecasting that support the notion that the economy is better off because of the stimulus package. Is this some sort of conspiracy? These companies rely on their credibility to do business so I do not agree with your blanket rejection of what is, in my view, a very reasonable article.
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October 5, 2011 7:41pm
Johnboy

You are arguing with an opinionated wanker, Weihana, who finds you amusing.

Note how he has recently moved on from dubious legal opinions to being an authority on the world as we know it. 🙂

I suggest you ignore the prick unless you need someone of his obvious ability to defend you against your next parking ticket.
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October 5, 2011 7:47pm
nasska

An old farmer goes to the Vet …

Farmer: I’ve got a bull that’s right off its duties.
It’s got to service 300 cows and all it wants
to do is eat.
Vet: Give it one of these little pills in its feed
and stand back.

So 2 weeks later the farmer comes back to the vet…

Farmer: WOW, what a pill! I gave the pill to the bull like
you said and POW! It jumped the gate, ran down the
race and fucked 70 cows in 30 minutes.
Vet: So, what’s the problem – why have you come back?
Farmer: Well, I was wondering, I am meeting this 18 year
old tonight – could you give me one of those
tablets? I’m not as young as I was.
Vet: Oh, no! Sorry, it’s too strong but I will give you
half a pill.

So the farmer takes the pill and goes off to prepare for
his date. Several days later, the farmer goes back to the Vet.

Farmer: It was wonderful….. 40 Times.
Vet: So, why have you come back?
Farmer: Ah! I need something for my wrist, she never turned up!
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October 5, 2011 8:00pm
Johnboy

Have you got one for the sheepherders nasska?

Just to cheer me up you understand.

Then a series of follow up jokes that ridicule arrogant, up their own arse, third rate lawyers with huge egos.

Now that would really be good! 🙂
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October 5, 2011 8:06pm
Weihana

F E Smith seems alright to me, I don’t have a problem with him.

I mean he supports Republican Presidential Candidates so obviously he’s crazy

But nobody’s perfect. 🙂
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October 5, 2011 8:09pm
KH

Johnboy. I think I encountered that legal authority on this Kiwblog as well.
After several exchanges where said authority cited all sorts of spurious logic and demanded evidence.
The evidence was produced. The profound legal judgement (FE does sit on the Privy council apparently) was that I was “rude”
I take that as legal talk that I won the exchange.
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October 5, 2011 8:10pm
nasska

I be a farmer
My name be Johnboy
I’m widely renown
for the size of my toy
too big for the wife
it just makes her weep
but just the right size
for me cows and me sheep.
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October 5, 2011 8:11pm
Hurf Durf

For some bizarre reason, EU bureaucrats would rather have their citizens be cold and hungry. Fingers crossed the individual member states see sense and tell them where to swivel. Or am I being too optimistic?
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October 5, 2011 8:12pm
Johnboy

He is joshing with you Weihana.

How can a man who lives off welfare (WWL) support right wing politics?

You have been conned. 🙂
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October 5, 2011 8:12pm
Johnboy

FES sits on the privy once a day just like the rest of us KH.

What he produces is exhibited here regularly for the eternally stupid who engage with him. 🙂
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October 5, 2011 8:14pm
nasska

Two women were walking through the woods when a frog called out to them and said: “Help me, ladies! I am a lawyer who, through an evil witch’s curse, has been transformed into a frog. If one of you will kiss me, I’ll be returned to my former state!”

One woman took out her purse, grabbed the frog, and stuffed it inside her handbag. The other woman, aghast, screamed, “Didn’t you hear him? If you kiss him, he’ll turn into a lawyer!”

The second woman replied, “Sure, but these days a talking frog is worth more than a lawyer!”
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October 5, 2011 8:15pm
Johnboy

That one I like nasska. 🙂
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October 5, 2011 8:17pm
Viking2

I was devastated to find out my wife was having an affair, but by turning to religion I was soon able to come to terms with the whole thing. I converted to Islam, and we’re stoning her in the morning!
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October 5, 2011 8:17pm
Viking2

Went to the pub with my girlfriend last night. Locals were shouting paedo and other names at me just because my girlfriend is 21 and I’m 50. It completely spoilt our 10th anniversary.

The wife suggested I get myself one of those dick enlargers, so I did…. she’s 21 and her name’s Lucy.

Q: What’s the difference between a blond and a brick?
A: The brick doesn’t follow you home after you lay it.

The cost of living has now got so bad that my wife is having sex with me because she can’t afford batteries!
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October 5, 2011 8:20pm
Viking2

Question – Are there too many immigrants in Britain? 17% said yes; 11% said No; 72% said “I am not understanding the question please.”

On my Census form there is a question “Do you have any dependants?”
Apparently putting “Hundreds of Africans, Pakis, Somalians, single mums, Romanians, loafers, smack heads and non English speaking people” isn’t the right answer. They’ve sent my form back!
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October 5, 2011 8:20pm
nasska

Amanda Knox’s future relationships aren’t going to be easy.
Amanda: “Do you want to play a sex game?”
Boyfriend: “Er…..let’s just cuddle instead.”
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October 5, 2011 8:25pm
Johnboy

His Lordship must be having a dip in his hot tub.
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October 5, 2011 8:26pm
Viking2

http://homepaddock.wordpress.com/2011/10/05/will-labour-complain-about-this-too/
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October 5, 2011 8:28pm
Scott Chris

The story of Johnboy and FE Smith

Johnboy was pissed off. He’s shot a couple of ducks, but they were on FE Smith’s property, and FE Smith had covertly caught it all on CCTV. To Johnboy’s surprise, instead of calling the cops, FE Smith offered to settle the debt via the “three strikes rule.”

So Johnboy asked, “What’s the three strikes rule?”
To which FE Smith replied, “Well, first I kick you three times and then you kick me three times, and so on, back and forth until someone gives up.”

Well, thought Johnboy to himself, I can easily kick this lawyer’s arse, so he agreed to the contest.
So FE Smith walked up to Johnboy. His first kick planted the toe of his Italian shoes into Johnboy’s groin, which dropped him to his knees.
His second kick nearly ripped the nose off his face.
Johnboy was flat on his belly, when FE Smith’s third kick to a kidney nearly causing him to give up, but didn’t.

Johnboy summoned every bit of his will and managed to get to his feet and said, “Okay, now it’s my turn.”
FE Smith smiled and said,
“Nah, I give up, You can keep the ducks!”
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October 5, 2011 8:29pm
Griff

Fine form tonight V2 nasska 8:17 pm so true.
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October 5, 2011 8:33pm
Johnboy

Good story Scott but last time I went head to head with a Lawyer I got the killer kick in.

After that I came to realise they were all full of shit.

Lord Birkenhead is a fine example of the breed. 🙂
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October 5, 2011 8:33pm
Scott Chris

nasska

My money’s on Amanda Knox being offered a million bucks to make an S & M porno flick.

Johnboy

I was just speculating on why you seem to ~like~ lawyers so much 🙂
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October 5, 2011 8:34pm
Johnboy

Now you know the answer Scotty! 🙂
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October 5, 2011 8:38pm
nasska

Scott Chris

If she does I’ll buy a copy. Imagine living with her…you wouldn’t dare sleep but maybe you wouldn’t want to.
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October 5, 2011 8:38pm
Johnboy

Stick to sheep nasska.

You get to cut their throats when you get tired of them. 🙂
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October 5, 2011 8:40pm
Rodders

Evening Scott. Based on what bereal alleged in yesterday’s GD, you may be eligible to audition for a “part.” 🙂
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October 5, 2011 8:40pm
nasska

God had never actually intended to create women, but he changed his mind when he found Adam in bed with a sheep.
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October 5, 2011 8:43pm
Scott Chris

Evening Rodders.

Don’t know about that…. If I were thusly endowed, I’d faint every time I got excited 🙂
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October 5, 2011 8:44pm
Rodders

🙂
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October 5, 2011 8:48pm
reid

I think they might V2.

Perhaps Phil’s wife isn’t quite so good looking as Bronagh and that’s why.

Or perhaps it was because Phil’s not going to sell quite so many mags.

Let’s hope one of those is the Australian Women’s Weekly’s explanation when the bweathless NZ media gives its editor a call tomorrow morning…
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October 5, 2011 8:54pm
Johnboy

So. The gutless little turd FESter (Lord Birkenhead) has fucked off again.

What a tosser. 🙂
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October 5, 2011 9:16pm
Griff

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/nobel-winner-seeks-calm-in-climate-debate-20111005-1l9d8.html
Nobel winner seeks calm in climate debate

Prof Schmidt said on Wednesday “The standing of science had suffered because of the ferocious debate on climate change over the past two years.”The science is science. Policy is policy. And I would really like the scientists to continue to debate what’s right and what’s wrong about everything, accelerating universe, climate,” he told reporters in Canberra. “And I’d really like the policy people to debate how to deal with what is coming in from the scientists, rather than an ill-formed scientific debate.”
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October 5, 2011 9:54pm
Griff

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/oct/04/nobel-prize-odds-bob-dylan

Nobel prize odds a-changin’ for Bob Dylan

Late surge in betting sees singer-songwriter’s price shorten from 100/1 to 10/1 to win literature’s highest honour
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October 5, 2011 10:45pm
reid

“And I’d really like the policy people to debate how to deal with what is coming in from the scientists, rather than an ill-formed scientific debate.”

Shame is Griff, not even that is happening now. What is happening now is even both the fake and the real scientists are getting ignored, in favour of whatever “feel’s right” in terms of the “enviwonment,” media-wise.

It’s what feels right, not what is right, which seems to count most in many hearts and minds these days.
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October 5, 2011 11:16pm
F E Smith

I mean he supports Republican Presidential Candidates so obviously he’s crazy

Happy to admit it, weihana, but mad in a good way. It helps, given the occupation…
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October 5, 2011 11:25pm
Griff

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10756892
Don Brash rejects coup talk

“talk that the party board could move to replace him with Epsom candidate John Banks”

Then lose support from the liberals in the party.
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October 6, 2011 6:56am
Manolo

In pursue of mythical green jobs the Messiah’s administration was ready to throw more good money after bad:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/solyndra-e-mails-dept-of-energy-was-poised-to-approve-469-million-for-firm/2011/10/05/gIQA0IvgNL_story.html?hpid=z2
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October 6, 2011 7:40am
Manolo

On this count there is no difference between Tony Blair (or Gordon Brown) and David Cameron: more nanny-statism and an insatiable appetite for higher taxes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/8806350/Conservative-Party-Conference-2011-fat-tax-could-be-introduced-in-Britain.html
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October 6, 2011 7:49am

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